Talk:PK Reporting

Introduction

The Department of Emergency Management takes an extremely dim view on PKing. Like many groups, we maintained our own PKer list, and some members tried to keep track of some of the many other lists available as well. However it was felt this was woefully inadequate and likely to lead to reporting conflicts. We decided to poll representatives of the very many groups we work with across Malton for ideas on how the situation may be improved. We all agreed that a centrally available common tool was needed, with reasonable and stringently applied rules. We viewed it as of key importance that the Bounty list be maintained impartial to any particular group membership. This included maintaining that it would be possible for one of our allies or even own members to end up on the list, should they engage in PKing. Toward this end we are seeking a couple additional highly recommended individuals interested in helping maintain and moderate the list. We are looking for people not directly affiliated with the DEM and hope for at least one more non-survivor player.

Putting the list on the wiki was an initial proposal, however it was felt that the ease of editing would likely make the page too contentious and render it unusable. In the end we decided to write a new tool to handle this. Well, two actually. There is an administrative tool for adding reports and a public tool for viewing the list. While we currently are only working with reports filed on the Brainstock forum, we designed the database to be able to refer to reports made elsewhere. While conceptually I think this is a great idea, I do have one major reservation. Reports will never time-off the database - I feel it is too important that a characters entire history be available for review if needed to resolve conflicts or discrepancies fairly, and that includes being able to link to the original report. Therefor I'm not comfortable accepting reports filed anywhere there is a history or high likely hood reports may be moved, deleted or edited after the fact. If time allows, I may add facilities so that the database can accept reports directly, but that's not likely to be too soon unfortunately. --Gilant 19:43, 29 March 2006 (BST)

Questions

As a Bounty Hunter I use the desensitised lists, how will you handle arbitration between lists? For example I kill BobPKER because he is on the desenstisised list but not on yours then he reports me to your list. Thanks for your time in this matter. --Technerd 19:56, 29 March 2006 (BST)

Well, if it wasn't for the concerns I mention above, I'd add the PK report to the database. Accepting how unlikely that is to be resolved, then you need to bring the PK report on BobPKER to the attention of the database mods. Just post in the forum or contact us directly explaining the situation with a link to the appropriate post on desensitized. We'll confirm the report and negate the report against you in the database. Or, depending on circumstances and the moderators available time, copy the report etc. onto the Brainstock forum and add it, and your bounty claim, to the database.

Obviously it would be better if there was only one list. Unfortunately there is a very large portion of UD players who will not use the desensitized lists at all to begin with. Indeed the leadership of a number of prominent pro-survivor groups have been kicked off those boards just for disagreeing with the new CoL (as an example, a MFD Battalion Chief even had her membership there yanked for making slightly disparaging comments about them on the Brainstock forum, once). So while unfortunately there will likely be the need to mediate conflicts on occasion, our hope is that this will make the whole process much more fair and transparent, by vastly reducing the number of alternate lists which the problem you describe could occur on. If we do our jobs well, this list could be accepted by the community at large as an acceptible alternate, and discourage groups from keeping their own PK lists as many currently do, reducing the number of lists to cross-check to two. And of course, I'm hoping that the interface I provide in the new tool will be much easier for players to use! :) --Gilant 20:35, 29 March 2006 (BST)

BobPKER is a fake name. Just wanted to clarify that.. And thanks for the informative response. --Technerd 01:53, 30 March 2006 (BST)

Comments

• Shouldn't this page be DEM PK Reporting instead of the general page PK Reporting? As it stands now, instead of having all PK Lists represented equally and in alphabetic order (much like the forum links page), you are making it sound like all PK reporting should be going through your reporting format, and as an afterthought included at least one other PK Reporting forum. I'd like to see this page change, and the creation of the DEM PK Reporting wiki page created for your personal use. -Token Black Man 8:40, April 21, 2006 (BST).

  Agree. This is the DEM's PKer list, and not official in any way. The page should point to different PKer lists and perhaps speak to the politics involved. To do otherwise is to create misinformation (or at least give only partial information).--Jorm 14:38, 21 April 2006 (BST)

  No it's not. While I did write the code and the DEM presented it, this is not the DEM's PKer list. It was designed as a tool for the general populace of Malton. The rules are publically published and all reports are available for review. The last thing we need is yet another PK list run for just one group's purposes - there are dozens of those already at least. If anyone else has a tool for general use I'd be happy to add them to the list. If they want to add a section describing their tool and how it works, I'll gladly work out with them how to lay it out, just as we worked with the CDF on adding the CIT tool to the Revivification Requests page (and even worked out a way to get the tools sharing information, to everyone's benefit). As for the CoL's own list, it hasn't been updated in a month now - I may be doing a disservice to the general public by listing it at all at the moment. As for the history and politics Jorm, that is largely covered on the PKer page, which is linked too, but I do see your point. At some point today I'll add a section to mention that, and point to the PKer pages history section and to this discussion page.--Gilant ^talk|DEM 13:27, 21 April 2006 (BST)

  Not true; the desensitized list is updated contstantly (in fact, it is TBM who manages it). While you're saying "this isn't the DEM's PKer list" it *is* and we all know it, whether that was your intention or not.--Jorm 14:38, 21 April 2006 (BST)

  • If this tool is then used as a universal tool for people to use in PK Reporting, then wouldn’t the page be better suited as PK_Reporting_Tool or simply Rouges_Gallery and then implement my suggestion here for this page with all players being allowed the option to either utilize your tool or report in any of the general threads that various forums might have for PK Reporting? I understand your concern of: “The last thing we need is yet another PK list run for just one group's purposes - there are dozens of those already at least�?, but wouldn’t it be beneficial to have all of those pages linked from one centralized source in order to start working out a master system or at least two to three main choices? As of now, I can’t name too many different PK Reporting sites, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. If we can get them out into the open, we can at least have the option of moderating them and start giving people the choice of where to go.--Token Black Man 14:25, 22 April 2006 (BST)
  • My sincere apologies TBM!!! I'd checked there a few times while setting this up. And while it looked like reporting was still going on in the PK Reporting: I fought the Law and the Law won. thread, the The Official CoL PKer List was no longer being updated. You aren't listed as a mod for that section, and I didn't notice that there was a PK list in your second post on that thread. I had no idea your reporting thread had the status of the CoL's PK list. You may want to make that a bit more clear, as I know I'm not the only person who missed it. --Gilant ^talk|DEM 17:22, 21 April 2006 (BST)

  • Yes, I run the current PK List on Desensitized, but it is no longer regarded the "official CoL" List (and hadn't been for a long time), but no I am not a moderator for that section. You’ll find that Nubis (who runs the A.R.S.E. list) and Lagavond (who runs the Zerger Liste) aren’t moderators either, but we have the full support of Biff and the other modertors to help manage our lists. The basic idea behind having the list in the second post of the reporting thread was to get people used to the idea of having to scroll by the rules for posting (so perhaps people will remember them) and to contain all of the PK information in one centralized location. As for the previous list, I will ask that Biff edit the list page to redirect people to the new list.--Token Black Man 14:25, 22 April 2006 (BST)

  • Now Jorm, exactly how do you mean it "*is* and we all know it"? I know no such thing, nor have I seen any accusation of such (until now). If you have some specific instance(s) you can point out that indicate we use it for our groups purposes, rather than by the published rules, I will most certainly do my best to address it! --Gilant ^talk|DEM 17:22, 21 April 2006 (BST)

  • Oh, and BTW Token Black Man, the forums page is not alphabetical. If so Brainstock should be moved to the top of the page. Go ahead and move it up. I dare you! --Gilant^talk|DEM 13:27, 21 April 2006 (BST)

    • Amusing. All, right then, we can just make this page alphabetical or determined by popularity or something. I admit that I wouldn't mind learning how you set up the database for the Rouge's Gallery. --Token Black Man 14:25, 22 April 2006 (BST)
    • I don't know how you can say that, Jorm. Especially when TBM is here and saying that his list is no longer a CoL PK list. I have spent some time chatting around and it does seem the CoL pk list is under new management. I am willing to flex and treat it that way(even though you get a lessor penalty for killing people on the ARSE list). Perhaps a little of the same from you would be appreciated.--Kristi of the Dead 21:07, 22 April 2006 (BST)
    • I think you people need to chill the fuck out and pay attention to what I actually said instead of what you *think* I said. I could give a flying fuck in a bucket about the CoL, old or new. I don't fucking care whose "authority" it runs under and I don't fucking care what political purposes a particular list may be used for (if any). What I care about is the fact that the desensitised list is a *separate* list and arguably the *most popular and widespread list* and yet was completely ignored in the article. While I think that it's neat that the DEM made a bunch of tools and all that doesn't make it the final authority. I think that defining an article called "pk reporting" on the wiki makes it appear "officially sanctioned by Our Lord and Savior Kevan" when it isn't *AT ALL*, and there is little text to indicate this is so. This page should be structured in an NPOV, non-group centric way (and there's no fucking way you can tell me you aren't trying to claim any type of credit when the VERY FIRST SENTENCE begins with "The DEM is proud to present...". The first part should be "There are several methods of PK reporting used by various groups throughout Malton blah blah blah" followed by a history section followed by a LIST of different PK reporting systems.--Jorm 21:25, 22 April 2006 (BST)
      • Each of those systems should have their own seperate section explaining how they work and the history of each one. I don't mean to have group PK lists in this article, but if they want to list it, who are we to stop them? They have every right to post their list in a centralized place for the ease of their group's members.--Token Black Man 21:30, 22 April 2006 (BST)
        • That's exactly what I'm advocating.--Jorm 21:46, 22 April 2006 (BST)

  • He never said that the list was still maintained by the CoL, just that it is still the same list it ever was in the Desensitized boards. The CoL just stated that they were no longer directly maintaining the list, and the management was passed along to me, with their blessings. They still have an active hand in maintaining the list (it is their forum after all) but is just run a little bit differently than when Katthew ran it. I do keep a tighter reign on screenshots and rules for posting PKs, but I try to be flexible and open to suggestions. As for the A.R.S.E. List clause, it was something that I kept over from the previous rules, due to the fact that a number of individuals deserve to be PKed. Some people might not agree with it, but I am willing to talk about it in the PK Discussion thread.--Token Black Man 21:15, 22 April 2006 (BST)

  • I know he didn't TBM the only thing I took issue with is that he seemed to be implying that the DEM list wasn't a list for use by everyone in Malton, and that it was maintained by the DEM. It's not all the DEM it fact one of the poeople that maintains it is a Death Cultist character and is not DEM, so our list isn't DEM controlled like you list isn't CoL controlled. That's all I was saying...I didn't take issue with the larger point that this page might need to reflect the other PK lists in Malton as the statement of Jorm's I took issue with didn't mention any of the items he brought up in his angry reply to me. However I certainly don't have any say on this and have to defer to Gilant --Kristi of the Dead 21:58, 22 April 2006 (BST)
  • Spot on Kristi. When I wrote this page I was under the impression (apparently incorrectly) that the list on Desensitized was still being run by the CoL, which had been ooccasionally (at least) edited for their own purposes, and even so, as I said above, hadn't even been updated in a while. So to my understanding there was no general list available not used as group-centric, until I put the Rogues Gallery on line. My issue is not with making this a page to describe all general lists available, but with Jorm's inference that I was lying about the Rogues Gallery not being a tool primarily for DEM purposes! --Gilant ^talk|DEM 18:47, 23 April 2006 (BST)

  • Jorm I quit reading after fuck...good luck with that temper of yours--Kristi of the Dead 21:40, 22 April 2006 (BST)
    • Well, if you're going to abandon the discussion, I'll just fix the page the way I think it should be.--Jorm 21:42, 22 April 2006 (BST)
      • curb your temper and speak to me as a person and I will...remove the curse ridden text from your statements and I might consider them to be more than just a rant by a angry person.--Kristi of the Dead 21:44, 22 April 2006 (BST)

• TBM, I'm very glad to hear that the list is under new management, is being actively maintained and that you are trying to do so in a way that is consistent and open! I'd be happy to discuss the details of the implementation on the Rogues Gallery, as well as how to remodel this page. It would probably be most efficient to have the bulk of the initial conversation over a more real-time medium, like IM or IRC. I've already made a couple edits to the main article to try to encourage visitors to read more of the background. And now that I know your list is still active I'll return mention that other lists are available to the top of the page as a stop-gap until we talk. --Gilant ^talk|DEM 18:47, 23 April 2006 (BST)

General Discussion

You should read the PKing page first if you haven't already. Discussion here should be about PK reporting and the PKer database.

Category: DEM?

Why is this page marked in the DEM Category? Seriously, guys, if you're trying to convince people that the DEM isn't some shadowy figure behind the Rogue's Gallery, you really need to stop slapping your branding on everything. But further, this is supposed to be a page about "pk reporting" and not "DEM pk reporting".

I have removed the category tag. This page is used by more groups than just the DEM.--Jorm 17:18, 24 August 2007 (BST)