Talk:Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead

אֱלֹחאֱל ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 08:04, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

This has GOT to be a troll. Ginormous (talk) 08:52, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

No. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 21:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

So your plan is to annoy and badger everyone until someone puts a lot of effort (and this would be a lot of effort) into something for you for free? Even the donation system would still go to Kevan? (Never mind that it seems reasonable to assume Kevan is the only one who can legally do this since he owns the copyrights to Urban Dead.) You just want someone to do a lot of work for you for free and hand it over? Do you see the problem here? Why can't you learn to code and do it yourself if it's so easy? Ginormous (talk) 22:46, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, Kevan made Urban Dead in the first place. He may have since moved on, but this is simply a request. The core programming is already done, so I don't see how much effort would have to go into a simple offline version.

It's truly a great game that has my group and me (and I'm sure many others) addicted to since its 2005 inception. We are only asking that Kevan make a version of the game that can be playable offline. We also would only ask someone else to make it if it is legal to do so and with Kevan's blessing. However, it may be legal to make a similar game if it's not an exact duplicate, anyway. If Kevan has a problem with this, he can prohibit it.

Kevan should also get optional donations from this as he is the creator, so that's only fair. If someone else legally makes a game similar to Urban Dead, then they have the right to ask for donations as well.

Also, it seems a bit much by saying that we expect someone to do a lot of work and just hand it over. Many tech-smart programmers make free applications and games for free in their spare time. They even ask for ideas. We are simply giving ideas as to what we would appreciate. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 23:26, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate the considered reply. Yes, I've played since 2005 as well and obviously am still interested otherwise I wouldn't be here. I suspect the core programming for UD couldn't be ported into an Android app or whatever you're envisioning without a re-write, but that's not my area of expertise. I suppose my two remaining questions are one, why don't you just contact Kevan directly? His website https://kevan.org/ provides a number of ways of getting in touch with him. Two, when is the spam tagging enough? You and your group are overwriting local tags regarding groups, barricades, and other information - and not just once, but repeatedly. Not only is that a bit rude, but it's really boring. Will you keep this up this spamming until you get your game? Ginormous (talk) 01:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I thank you as well, for not going the popular way of just writing this all off as being a troll or a troublemaker.

I've always wanted a way to play UD (at least in some form) offline. What made me see it as possible was an app called OffLine Browser. It's an Android application where you can save any website for offline browsing. It sort of works with Urban Dead, but your character can't move or interact with much of anything. So with a little tweaking, I figured that maybe Kevan or somebody could (legally) make it work. I'm not a programmer either, but I would like to see at least something similar to this.

I would contact Kevan directly, but I heard he likes his privacy, so I try to respect that. I figured it would be better if Kevan just sees the requests about this if he checks on the game on his own time and on his terms.

About the graffiti tags: Other groups encourage their members to tag all over their territories, so we thought it was fair game to keep doing it. I can advise the rest of the group to not keep spraypainting in the same spots if they're obviously being tagged for group information, etc.--Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I would still advise attempting to contact Kevan in good faith since you would need his blessing if it were a straight interpretation of Urban Dead - you would have to sooner or later. He doesn't actually pay much, or maybe any, attention to what goes on in the game, or necessarily here either. (Buying an ad on the log in/log out pages could do it.) Also, there's no other way you'd be able to get the coding. Adding the things you've suggested, such as AI NPCs, will take work so it would be good for you to have a pretty concrete idea of what you wanted. Also if Kevan says, 'No' and you want something similar, but different, you will need to build from scratch. You might want to investigate places where up and coming developers communicate and propose the idea there, rather than shouting it into the winds of Malton. Most of the UD forums are defunct, but UD specific places to ask around still exist (on Discord, for example).

On the subject of tags, I'm guessing you don't want to generate ill will about your project so do be cautious about where and how often you do it. Too much comes off like a demanding kid or a troll. You're making a strong request without providing a way to follow through or discuss it, or even saying why anyone else would want this. I know that's a lot for 50 characters, but that's one reason that may not be the best way to find the programmer you're looking for. Ginormous (talk) 09:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. Speaking of developer/programming sites, I saw some broadcasts claiming there are already offline versions of Urban Dead (or similar clones) on the Github website. I searched around the site, but all I could find were projects that didn't make much sense to me. Are you aware of these or know if they're legal and how to use them if so? Also, if Kevan didn't publish the UD coding, how did they get it? Did they start from scratch? --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 23:11, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Afraid I can't help you there, but I would look at the dates on those. Could be they're clones from the heyday of UD's popularity. It's not, compared to games today, super complex in its original form. A lot of things we take for granted have been tacked on over the years. I doubt they would have gotten the code legally, so likely built from scratch. At least that would be my theory, but I really wouldn't know. Ginormous (talk) 23:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that could be it. There have been other games similar to Urban Dead, so these could be the same basic idea done from scratch. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 20:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

How would an offline version even work? You'd be the only person in Malton. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION 10:15, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

An offline version of Urban Dead can implement non-playable characters to make up for the real players. Or it can even have the option of creating each and every character and choosing which ones you can control and which ones to act on their own. You might even be able to control certain characters at different times, depending on your mood. Survivor and zombie alike. It would be like a type of zombie apocalypse simulation game. You wouldn't have to worry about zerging or cheating, because the rules would be up to the player. There are many possibilities. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 23:11, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

See, this idea alone would be a lot of new coding to be done. Every last bit of this kind of minor AI and customization would need to be figured out, defined, written, debugged, and play tested. Every last detail is a decision with a mechanism behind it. Ginormous (talk) 23:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

True, it would take some (maybe even a lot) of work, but great things usually do need at least some work. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 20:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

You can't say this wouldn't be a lot of work but also require the programming of an AI that mimics average human UD players... DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION 08:51, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Like I've said before, we're not experts. It may take a lot of work, but it can be done. Plus the AI doesn't have to be perfect. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 20:53, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

So, just to be clear here. You want someone else to make Facebook available offline? By replacing everyone with AI bots? For free? Even if that were possible, if would defeat the entire point. If you are interested, MAKE IT YOURSELF . Whoops, I said Facebook instead of this MULTI-player game. Right click, save as, save to desktop as "Urban Dead.html" and feel free to open it whenever you want to feel like you're playing. But most importantly, stop spamming. Spamming this only makes other players dislike you. --Jaggeddragon (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

We are only interested in Urban Dead. Facebook or any social media websites are irrelevant.

Making a possible offline game like Urban Dead with NPC characters wouldn't defeat the point, because it is supposed to be an offline game in the first place. We already explained it.

Also, enough with accusing people of spam when you don't agree with them. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

To quote: "please spray the following graffiti everywhere in Malton" and "Members and people in agreement are encouraged to broadcast on the radio about our cause. We need to spread the word at all times, day and night" are obvious encouragement to spam. Don't lie about your actions and methods. --Jaggeddragon (talk) 23:22, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

We don't consider encouraging people to spray tags and broadcast our cause as spam, since it's something meaningful and the words need to be spread. I guess your mileage may vary, though. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 00:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

separator added by DDR for ease of editing/adding comments

If it will make you stop spamming, I'm a programmer, but before I'll type ANY code, you NEED a PLAN. It seems like your plan so far is "Make it, oh yeah AI too". Okay, what SPECIFICALLY do you want the AI to do and how? The answer cannot be a comparison to human players, it must be a LIST. The problem you are running into, is that just about everyone knows you haven't put any thought into this other than organizing a spam campaign, so they don't want to put any work in either. --Jaggeddragon (talk) 23:37, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this question. When you think about it, other than roleplaying, there isn't a whole lot that players can do in the first place. But how is this for a basic list:

Survivors: attack zombies, revivify zombies, search for ammunition and items, heal other survivors, reclaim and barricade buildings. Maybe even random PKer characters that attack other survivors

Zombies: attack survivors, attack barricades, ransack and ruin buildings, hold buildings.

I don't see why the AI would have to be perfect for this sort of game. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 00:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, now we have to break down each of those items into actual events. For example, 'attack Zombie' isn't a one step process. It's a whole decision tree involving searching for weapons/ammo, reloading, cost/benefit analysis of various weapons for ammo/toHit%/Damage, finding zombies, identifying friendly vs enemy zombies, movement patterns and options. Furthermore, each of these change as skills are acquired. Then there is the whole skill tree, where several skills are entirely useless in a single-player version. To be clear, what you are asking for is a bot that can play Urban Dead, thousands of times concurrently, with full customizability. OR a bunch of bumbling idiots trying to randomly shoot billboards with empty shotguns, there really isn't any middle-ground. Ever since bots/auto-action scripts were banned in the game, the whole concept of any sort of effort into this became moot at best. I just don't think you understand what you're asking for. --Jaggeddragon (talk) 01:03, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Since Urban Dead was originally designed the way it is as a multiplayer game, there would logically have to be changes made to suit a single-player offline version.

It's true that there are actions that are more complicated than others, like the 'attack zombie' example you gave. Either the decision trees would need to be modified, worked on and debugged, or the actions of the non-playable characters would need to be modified to be more simple. This is where I am lacking in knowledge of programming capabilities, as to their difficulty to implement.

I do know that in the game Urban Dead is based off of, Vampires!, that there are AI controlled characters that seem to work fine. Their actions may be simpler, but they do work.

An offline version may even be radically different in technical terms and somewhat in the way it's played, but since it would be a different version, that should be expected. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 01:44, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Great, you have a framework that I gave you. Make something. Vaguely motioning at something else coded on some other environment, in some other language, isn't going to help. Draw up a list of what the AI can do, make some connections between actions based on logical precedence (pick up a gun/reload before you can shoot) and play-style variation. Consider timeouts, if a zombie that wants to be revived is at an abandoned revive point, how long should they stand around before trying to find a better revive point? How often should the bots take actions? How should actions of several bots in competition with each other be ordered? --Jaggeddragon (talk) 03:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

OK. --Please make a Free Offline Version of Urban Dead (talk) 22:05, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Ok so totally unrelated and a total timesink, but I think discussing how a realistic AI that mimics the UD human condition would be fascinating. I don't have much experience in programming but I would love to see how people think an Urban Dead experience could be made authentic via AI.

I have a feeling that different AI 'characters' would be needed, people dedicating themselves to healing, cading, shooting, PKing even, but driven towards certain areas over different parameters over time. Some are more nomadic, some stick to the same area more, and others follow the big groups for fun. Etc etc. Zombies would also require a few different AI profiles as well and stuff. Could be cool DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION 11:27, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

A document encompassing scope, and showing effort into the development process, is needed. See above regarding my suggested questions. -Jaggeddragon (talk) 06:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The guy has already laid out his plan. He is not a programmer. That's probably why he reached out in the first place. You're supposedly a programmer, so either help him out or move on. -Mike Ehrmantraut (talk) 21:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

He's just asking for some effort to be expended by the person making the request - like, you know, specifics about what he wants. I don't know if you've ever had to build anything for a client before, but it does take more input than "DO THIS FOR ME!"(Much less doing it for free.) He was specific about what he needed, now he's prompting the "client" to respond. That's actually more polite than simply forgetting about it. Ginormous (talk) 22:29, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear to me. It also seems that he/they just wants Urban Dead to be adapted to an offline/app version. The specifics of this game aren't exactly complex, especially if you played it before. The programmer expects technical advice from a non-technical person. -Mike Ehrmantraut (talk) 01:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Alternatives

A friend suggested the following offline alternatives - Cataclysm:DDA, Rebuild, and Project Zomboid which is apparently still being updated. None of them are UD, but they might scratch that itch without needing to rebuild Rome, as it were. Ginormous (talk) 23:17, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion

I've been following this whole offline request from the beginning. Here's some advice. Keep doing what you're doing. Ignore anyone telling you to figure out any programming, since you've already stated you have no knowledge in programming. If somebody truly wants to help and they have the time and and are able to, they will. -Mike Ehrmantraut (talk) 21:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

So what you're saying is if someone is marching up and down the street yelling, "I want a house! For free!" they should just keep doing that until someone builds them a house - without specifications, with a fancy second story, oh and maybe a garage, or not, they're not sure, it should be something that could be both a garage AND a rec room... They shouldn't have to put in any more effort than making loud noises? Even if an architect approaches them to get more specific about what they want? Ginormous (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Apples and oranges. The guy already specified that he wants it to work as closely to the original online game as possible, but is willing for compromises to be made to make it work offline. A programmer would be best suited for these kinds of decisions and changes. -Mike Ehrmantraut (talk) 01:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)