Talk:Suggestions/archive2

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Skill Discussion

Military Skills Tree

• Observant - Will double (or x1.5, or any multiple you care to name) the user's chances at finding anything with a search, anywhere. (Searching is a very common activity, thus there should be some way to make it easier. Possibly this should be higher up in a tree or a zombie hunter skill or some other mechanism to stop it from being learned early.)

Kill -- I think search percentages are kept low for a reason. --Raelin 21:57, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- I have to side with Raelin. I'm not totaly against a skill to raise search rates slightly, but anything with a multiplier seems drastic to me --McArrowni

Kill -- Just too much. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill --Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Mercy Killing - Attacking a player with less than 10 health instantly kills them.
  • Killing Blow - Attacking a player with less than 20 healthy instantly kills them.

Kill--PKers will absolutely love these skills. --Themanwithahat 13:30, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--what he said.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:33, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Ditto. --Raelin 21:57, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Overpowered IMO. Same with parent skill--[[User:McArrowni|McArrowni] oct 27 2005

Scientific Skill Tree

• Vaccination - Nanobots in the character's bloodstream prevent wounds from becoming infected. Lasts for 200 AP, then must be renewed. 1 XP awarded per vaccination given.

Kill -- Nanobots!? Why not just go with a real vaccination instead of making up nanobots? Either way, something that completely nerfs infection just seems pointless. --Raelin 22:02, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- I second that. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change -- Normal vaccination might be possible, but not nanobots... Please stay in the zombie apocalypse genre. However, a scientist skill that would allow yourself to vaccinate yourself (and only yourself, for balance issues, with a real vaccine) for, say a 60-70% res to infection might be ok. That means the zombie will still infect yo if he wants, but he'll have to bite you multiple time to do it (instead of rending your flesh). No skill gets totaly removed, and scientists get a useful skill which they need. McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Kill -- 'twill be gone in a moment--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• General Practitioner - Player is +10% more likely to find medical supplies in a Hospital.
  • ER Experience - Player is +10% more likely to find medical supplies in a Hospital.

Kill -- Why? Bargain hunting is better. --Raelin 22:02, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Kill -- Because it's not Mall-specific. But I wouldn't change the current search percentages anyway. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill --Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• CPR - Player is able to revive those who have only recently fallen (ie, no zombie skills). If the revived was infected, the player also becomes infected. The revived player can stand up for only 6 AP.
  • Defibrillation - Player can use shock paddles to revive the recently fallen (ie, no zombie skills) without chance of infection. Requires shock paddles. The revived player can stand up for only 3 AP.

Kill--It doesn't make much sense to define "recently fallen" as having no zombie skills. This would mean someone who died and has been sitting there dead for two days could still count as "recently fallen." Also someone who has, say, Lurching Gait and just died again not 30 seconds ago wouldn't be "recently fallen." Then there's always the CPR/shock paddles to treat bite/claw/bullet wounds angle. --Themanwithahat 13:56, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Ditto. --Raelin 22:02, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Agree. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Hyperconglomeromyxomatosis - Player can revivify zombies with Brain Rot.

Kill--If anything, this should be an item not a skill. --Themanwithahat 13:56, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Shouldn't be able to negate other players skills, seems pointless. I think this was suggested as a joke anyways. --Raelin 22:02, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change-- What about a full body restoration which removes Brain Rot totally, but has the adverse effect of giving the zombie full HP [and doesn't make him human].. I mean with BrainRot, and Ankle grab.. a zombie is pretty much a total loss at being revived--Adrian 18:59, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Maybe we could, ahem, revive this idea when humans are outnumbered. Shadowstar 19:47, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

'Kill--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Civilian Skill Tree

• Blockade - Player can build blockcades. [Blockades are the same as barricades, except they can be built anywhere without a building, and each edge of a square needs to be blockaded individually. Note: You cannot blockade a building from the inside unless it is a multi-squared building. Blockades that are built very strongly or lower can be gotten over by all survivors, any blockades that are built heavily or higher need free running to get over, like barricades.]

Kill--This wouldn't provide too much additional protection from zombies, since you can't dump the bodies outside of the blockaded square like you can with a barricaded building. However, "overblockading" would be a much more annoying problem than "overbarricading" --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- ^ --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Simplicity in all things--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • Lock Picking - Player can can enter barricaded buildings without any extra ap or entering near buildings as a survivor. Zombies with this skill will be able to bypass light barricades.

This makes more sense as an expansion upon Free Running. The Zombie part doesn't really fit either. --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill/Change -- Agree with what Themanwithahat said, but the name doesn't really make much sense, nor does the way the skill is explained. Perhaps a skill to enter heavily barricaded buildings would be nice, but it would need some major limitations. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Scavenging - Player gets the option to search dead bodies. Has a 10% chance for each body of taking a random item from it.

Kill--Lots of dead bodies are zombies, many of which have no items. Also, there are far better ways to search for items already in place. --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--*nods*--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:49, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- seems like it's only real "benefit" is annoying the person you stole the item from. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • Huff 'n' Puff - Player can use super-breath on zombies to do 4 damage.

Kill --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Not even worthy of Bad or Humorous.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:49, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill --It was suggested as a joke. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Strong Keep ;) --Neccessary--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • Faith - When inside a church, player can use crucifix to attack zombies, making them blind until they leave the church (or unable to do anything but leaving, or causing it massive damage). --well, the crucifix has no use up till now, right? Monstah 21:28, 13 Oct 2005 (BST)
  • Sacrifice - When inside a cathedral or church, player can use crucifix and 10HP in order to deal 20 damage to any zombie in an eight block radius.

Kill--This goes for the whole branch. Crucifixes don't need a use. And even if they did, they don't need a ridiculously overpowered set of uses. --Themanwithahat 16:13, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill/Change--Definitely Sacrifice and maybe Faith too should be gone, but I like the idea of some sort of religion-based game mechanics.

Kill -- Awful. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Crucifix should be used for something else. --Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • Cure Light Wounds - Clerics and Monks can cure 2D6 of damage to players and NPCs.

Kill--Katthew is comedy gold. --Themanwithahat 16:13, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Another joke suggestion --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Survivor Ingenuity - A player with this skill can combine items for use. A possible combination of Wine and Gas Can would create a Molotov Cocktail. A Molotov Cocktail thrown at a group would cause random damage to a random amount of the players in stack who are attacked. Molotov thowing players would get 1/2 xp per HP taken off each affected player. Another combination would be Gas Can and Flare Gun creating a Fire Bomb. A Fire Bomb would have the same effect as a Molotov Cocktail but with higher damage though with a lesser chance of success. A Fire Bomb would also take action points equal to the number of hp taken from each affected player."

Kill--Molotov Cocktail is Fuel+Rag. But seriously, survivors don't need tons and tons of explosives. --Themanwithahat 16:13, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill/Change -- Perhaps with some modifications it could be a decent skill, but if it's only purpose is to make explosives, then it's just useless. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Molotovs will be implemented, according to one of Kevan's early newsgroup posts. This doesn't seem like a great implementation, though...--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • Evac - You quit the game and are IP banned. You have won congrats.

Kill--Worthless (though there are probably some players who should use that Evac skill...) --Themanwithahat 16:13, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- More mock suggestions --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Modify/change If you took out the permaban, it would allow people to retire high level characters. Maybe up the xp cost to extremely high levels and open up new skills and classes as a reward for "winning" the game. Death could be used more as a skill wipe/restart if your having trouble with the current setup. That way we have less people abandoning level 1s who die.

Kill --Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Zombie Skill Tree

• Death Stench - Zombie can choose to emit a foul stench which stays in the same block. It disappears only after either 24 hours has elapsed or 10 AP has been spent in the block. Every AP spent by a human in said cloud would have a 10% chance of becoming infected and a 50% chance of taking 1 damage. Effect DOES NOT stack. So if 5 stenches were in one square then there would still be a 10% chance of infection and 50% chance of taking 1 damage. Using this ability in an already stenched block would NOT reset the timers or extend them, the user would simply be told, "There is already a stench here".

Kill--Too powerful. This allows just a few zombies to cripple a large mall. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--*nods*--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:59, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--*nods as well*--McArrowni 27 Oct 2005

Kill-- ^ --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- I don't think you guys understand the "does not stack" part, but you do understand that it's not a good skill idea.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change-- Although this is probably a lost cause, I can see this being usefull. Take away the chance of infection, and just make it deal 1 damage per action in an area for an hour or two, maybe. This wouldn't clear out malls, because people could still go in to get items if they're willing to take the damage. In a siege situation, as well, if a zombie manages to enter the building, they could release the stench, thus presenting the survivors with the option of dealing with it or evacuating and falling into the hands of the horde. Also, make it AP expensive, so that a Zombie taking part in a siege that enters the building, they'd have to really risk their necks to release their stench by crippling their action points. Abuse of this could be prevented by not telling the zombies how long a stench has been in place and by only allowing one stench per screen. This prevents zombies from simply replenishing a waning stench unless they're willing to sit around for a hour for it to degrade, and the second part makes it so that entire tracks of city can't be completely fumigated. While these are a lot of demands, it could potentially make the skill seriously useful in the right hands.--Wilcox 28 Oct 2005

• • Satan's Embrace - Zombie regains 5 health per AP. Stacks with Grim Renewal.

Kill--lol Katthew lol --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Grim Renewal would be good to compensate for the Zombie's inability to restore their health normally and it would give them a powerful edge, but tacking on Satan's Embrace is a bit overpowering. That's 8 Health every half hour. Which is 16 every hour. You'd be at full health in just over 3 hours. --Wilcox

Kill--Does this really need an explanation? McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Will to Live - Zombie's mind is not effected by undeath to the extent of the others, and it is aware enough of its own condition to be horrified by what it has become. Zombies with the Will to Live lose all offensive capabilities, but are able to bypass building barricades up to the level of survivors (they are desperatly seeking treatment and their attachment to life prevents them from harming the living). Such Zombies would be marked differently (possibly as 'Victim' or simply 'Undead') and could still be attacked by survivors or other Zombies. Zombies that had NT experience in life can still recognize the buildings from the street. The presence of a Zombie with the Will to Live in an NT building moves anyone with Lab Experience to pity, and gives them +30% to find a NT syringe and treat the pitiful creature.

Kill--Death is the downside to being human. Making it easier to get revived makes it harder for zombies. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Agreeing with TheManWithTheHat. Also, jumped at +30% chance to find NT syringe. This is a big no-no. Why would most NT want to revive you and lose a source of such a good bonus? --McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Kill-- Agreed. 30% is huge.

Kill -- Yep. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill/Change--I think it was meant that a scientist character, on entering an NT building with a zombie with this skill, would have a 30% chance of automatically finding a syringe and reviving it. They never actually have a syringe in their possesion. But Man w/Hat is right, death should be a bigger problem. this does give me some ideas regarding a zombie mirror for the human "death cultist" class idea though...--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 20:07, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Memories of Fire - Zombie has a low chance of setting a building on fire. Survivors inside of building loose HP if they take action inside of building. Barricades are weakened. How? Zombies knock over gasoline cans or tear electrical wires, starting a fire.

Kill--Don't play with fire. And who is going to rebuild all the burnt down buildings after the survivors die because they don't have any place left to hide? --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--*nods.* However, see the Other Ideas page for a much, much better theory on fire.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:59, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Overpowered, and weak concept. --Raelin

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Restless - Zombie's maximum action points increase by ten, allowing overpowering in one on one combat. (Maybe a ten-ish minimum level.)

Kill--If zombies are having trouble in combat, make them deal more damage instead of letting them attack more, since adding more AP has effects outside of combat. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

KillNow that I think about it 50 max AP seems nicely balanced.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Dirty Fingernails - When use to attack a survivor it deals 1 more damage, and may infect the survivor.

Kill--Right now, hands attacks are a bit too accurate to be able to infect people. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- ^ --Raelin

• • Unscrubbed Hands - Zombie is not allowed at the dinner table.

Kill--No one likes a Mr. Bungle, Katthew. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

I will personally remove this suggestion although it only has two votes. I totally feel like a criminal.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Putrefaction - When zombie is killed its bodily fluids spray out, giving every survivor in the square a 30% chance of becoming infected (50% if killed with shotgun)
  • Mung-Bomb - When zombie is killed the noxious fumes inside detonate and cause it to explode, giving every survivor in the square a 60% chance of becoming infected (100% if killed with shotgun). Standing up now takes an extra 5AP.

A 100% chance of infecting every human in a square is not a good idea. --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- waaaay too powerful. Also, who would get the experience for it? The killed zombie? The human who just infected everyone? And 60% is too high as it is for just killing a zombie. If you've got a horde in the area, they'd pretty much win as soon as they got in the building. Shadowstar 03:59, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- ... --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/killSimplify and reduce power.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Bad idea, and so is putrefaction. Zombies are generally not depicted as being balloons of explosibe gasses.--Wilcox 28 Oct 2005

• • Shadow Walk - Zombie can travel between shadows. Movement is reduced to ten blocks per 1AP.

Kill --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- What? These are Zombies, not Ninjas. Plus, a zombie would be able to traverse the entire city in 10 AP. Utterly ridiculous. Wilcox

Kill -- The only redeeming quality of this suggestion is the mental picture of an elite team of zombie ninjas. Haha, zombie ninjas. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Strong Keep ;) -- Have you every seen a zombie movie without zombie ninjas? I think not.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Amass Horde - All nearby zombies (say, at most 5 blocks away) get a message saying they feel drawn towards the calling zombie's block, and may (randomly) take an involuntary step towards it. Nearby dead bodies (at most 2 blocks away) have a chance of being reanimated as zombies. Only available for zombies of level 10 or higher.
  • Gather Horde - All nearby zombies fall under the temporary control of the zombie using this skill.
    • Command Horde - All nearby zombies fall under the permanent control of the zombie using this skill.

Kill--I know at least one of these is a joke, but they all should go. Forcing other players to move is bad. No need to cause zombies to stand up either. They will be pretty useless if they aren't online, and if they are online, it isn't that hard to stand up. --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Agreed. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Meat Puppet - Ignore 1 damage from each attack done to a zombie with this skill. Cumulative with a flak jacket.
  • Long Gone - Ignore 1 damage from each attack done to a zombie with this skill. Cumulative with flak jacket and meat puppet. In addition the zombie must spend an extra AP to move (Movement would be 2AP for a zombie with Lurching Gait or 3AP for a zombie without lurching gait)
    • Coffin Skin - Ignore 1 damage from each attack done to a zombie with this skill. Cumulative with flak jacket, Meat Puppet and Long Gone.
      • Armour Plating - Ignore 1 damage from each attack done to a zombie with this skill. Cumulative with flak jacket, Meat Puppet, Long Gone and Coffin Skin. In addition the zombie must spend an extra AP to move (Movement would be 3AP for a zombie with Lurching Gait or 4AP for a zombie without lurching gait).

Kill--Zombies don't need to be tougher. They can take just as much damage as a human right now. The difference is that a zombie can immediately get back up and continue. --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

How exactly do zombies become armor-plated? A tank zombie like that would be nearly unplayable. --WildT

Kill-- Armor plated zombies... haha... They fall in a junkyard and the metal sticks to their bodies! Haha... Is this one serious? ignore 5HP damage? It would make shotguns the only useful items in the game for humans, so we might as well kill axes and pistols while we were at it. Kinda silly. Shadowstar 03:59, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Kill--Meat Puppet alone could work, since it would be nice to make the Zeds a little more resiliant. All the additions would make them into unstoppable juggernauts, though. Unmovable, too. It would take forever to level up just because you'd never run into anyone. Don't make it stack with Flak Jacket. That's a bit much. Hmm, it still seems a bit too powerful for a first tier skill. Wilcox

Kill-- Haha, it's a good thing it said "ignore" instead of "subtract", otherwise attacking with anything other than flares and shotguns would heal the zombie.

Kill -- We've been through this before...--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Zombie Hunter Skill Tree

• Deadly Accuracy - If you kill a zombie, it loses 15 XP for each level it had. It retains its skills.

Kill--Headshot only removes 10XP for a reason. --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Sneak attack - When you go into a Square with another Zombie, There is a 15% Of Hitting it Instantly.

Kill--What? --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Uh... so you lose an AP with that? 2AP for movement sort of thing?

Kill -- Indeed, what? --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Shield of the Dead - When you are in a Square with Zombie/s, and there is a Dead body, you can Pick it up For a 30% To block over 4 Dmg. However, there is a 5% Chance you are Infected. you can Drop the Body and Pick it up at any time.

Kill--For the same reason as tank zombies Shadowstar 04:06, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- I can see what drove Katthew insane. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Still no reason to get all mean. Three little letters will fix that. --Wilcox

Goodbye--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • Slash Attack - Knife attack does more damage and stops skills.

"Stops skills." What is that supposed to mean? --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Doesn't seem to mean anything. Shadowstar 04:06, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Shouldn't we just auto-kill anything that doesn't make any sense? --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Zombie Elite Skill Tree

• Command The Flock - Zombie Elite can cry out loudly, drawing all nearby zombies to it.

What does this mean? --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Huzzah! More zomibie mind control tricks! --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change--I'm guessing you meant it gives messages to zombies like a flare does. In that case it would be good, but it needs to be changed so we know if this is really the case.McArrowni 28 Oct 2005

Kill -- should be (and is) under regular zombie tree suggestions.

• Curiosities - The Zombie Elite recognizes certain items from when it was alive. Small (15% or so) chance to snatch up an item from any corpses it passes over (extra 10% for those it kills). Seems pretty useless, until you get to:

Kill--I don't like the idea of taking items from other players. --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

[Zombies should be able to take items from other players because] zombies are meant to try to kill humans. PKing is merely tolerated. --WildT

Kill -- How many times has the "zombie thief" thing been re-hashed on this page? --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Removing items from players just by passing over them? You know you can just pass over corpses repeatedly? Also, unless the zombie can use the item, he'll eventually reach his inventory cap, making the skill useless. Annoying and then useless = Kill. McArrowni 28 Oct 2005

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • • Re-life - Zombie appears as a human and can use all human skills.

Kill--If you want to use all your human skills, get Revived. --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--So then, it's the ultimate killing machine? Have you 'ever' seen this zombie in any movie? Monstah 03:28, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--I'm pretty sure this is a joke. McArrowni 28 Oct 2005

Rejected Ideas 22:33, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Basic Reconnaissance - For 1AP, you can "scout out" a building from the outside, giving you a chance of being able to tell what's inside without entering. However, what information you get is vague ("There are many zombies within.") compared to what you could get if you were inside the building.::Kill -- For 2 AP you can go out and back in... unless of course its barricaded in which case you wouldn't be able to look out anyway -- --Adrian 19:05, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Lie Low - Player has a 45% chance of not showing up on the namelist when outside.
  • Concealment - Player has a 70% chance of not showing up on the namelist when outside.

Kill -- Does this mean a 70% chance per player, or 70% change period? Either way it seems rather useless. Same for parent skill. --Raelin 21:57, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- I agree. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/Change -- This needs to be clarified. Do you only disapear for people outside your square? Is the 70% "rolled" once per person, or per refresh/AP spent in that area, or once per AP spent by you (the later leads to abuse by people working in team)? IMO it's a good design, but needs to go through developement again. And might fit the zombies better than the humans. I think somethign more reasonable could be 70% to not show up on the map, but still show up on the namelist if someone is in your area, each time someone spends a AP around you. Most people who see you will think you moved out or something. --McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Kill -- Next time a friend is looking for you, or you need healing fast... it'll work against you ----Adrian 19:05, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

Kill--Thor Both of these skills seem to be unbalanced in the very idea that a zombie cant attack players that are concelaed this is not metal gear solid. Why not just call it sam fisher skill?

• Call to Arms - When player uses a flare gun, all military characters recieve a modified version of the flare gun message. If they enter that square within 24 hours, they get an XP bonus on the first attack they carry out within that square.

Keep-- Flares are patently useless right now. At least with this skill they'd be used for something, and it would give people a reason to congregate to them. On the other hand, it could be used as a trap for Zombie sympathizers.

Kill-- Too random.--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Really who are you hiding from? Also can't zombies smell you?--Axe-man 09:02, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Very open to abuse... so why don't you just do that to all zombie sets? Give a nice XP boost to everyone? You already get more than enough XP from killing 50 for each kill + bonus --

Kill--Thor That is a skill that would not add to the game since anyone who would attack would do so anyway. So I dont see this making the game more fun or better. I see it just cluttering things up.

• Guard Duty - Allows player to lose his last 10 AP points, and go on guard mode He will automatically attack any zombie which attacks him, until his 10 points are drained. He should use the strongest weapons avalable, yet not be able to change cartiges; so he will fire, run out of bullets; change weapon to something less powerful.

• Adrenaline Boost - Player can inject adrenaline to a (living) character to give the injected character 10(less?) APs and remove 10(more?) HPs with the use of an Adrenaline Syringe (looted from hospitals only).

Kill--Thor There would be many people sticking random people who wouldnt want to be sticked with this annoying syringe.

• Analysis - The condition of nearby survivors are displayed. Additionally, characters in the surrounding 8 squares have their names colored to reflect their HP level.

• Postmortem Examination - Player is able to carry out autopsies on dead bodies. Gives class and skill information about the body. Gives 5XP (or less, maybe). The same body cannot be autopsied twice by the same user on the same day. Coupled with a datacom and the Communications skill, would make the number of bodies autopsied in the area available to anyone with security class Alpha or higher. Might make it harder (15AP?) for the body to rise. Requires a knife.

Kill--Thor No this is just wrong to think of people standing in a block in 1 ap doing this so NO!

Kill -- Seems like too much XP given away for nothing. Compare with the DNA extractor (which I think requires a skill as well). Live zombies are rarer, give only 4xp, and can only be tagged 1/day at all, not just per person. Also, scientists would have to be a bit crazy to spend time around corpses in a town where they are known to rise up and attack you at any time...--McArrowni 28 Oct 2005

Kill--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- way too easy XPs. There's tons of corpses around and after a while it would replace the DNA Extractor at all. --Seagull Flock 13:47, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Athletic Prowess - An extra +10% to hit with all melee weapons.

• Drag Body - Player can drag corpses to an adjacent square.

Kill--I don't know if I like the idea of being able to move people around. I mean, I understand the need for dumping bodies, but dragging around corpses might make it too easy to fuck with people. --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/Change--There's gotta be some way to get bodies out of the immediate area when you're defending... maybe just make it a high number of AP. This way, survivors aren't thinking, oh dear, what happens if they all wake up? Shadowstar 20:29, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Even if the principle might be right, I don't like the idea of somebody moving bodies around either. Misused, can lead to a lot of problems. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor Who wants to waste ap dragging bodies around? this isnt splinter cell. Plus this prevents the dead body from any actions so it is unfair and unblanaced.

• Welding - You need a Toolbox and Spare Parts. you can Put Bolts and Nails in the Barricade, thus making it Stronger. Zombies require 1 Extra AP to attack it.

Kill--This is practically Construction. --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--I like this idea--make the barricade harder to attack instead of just making it stronger. The idea of requiring multiple items means it'd be harder to abuse.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:49, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Again, barricades are already quite effective. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- See comment above by Raelin. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor I dont see how this is useful at all. Barricades need some help though since hordes just mash them away.

• Animal Taming - Gives 30% chance to tame a dog (or other animal) upon finding one. The opportunity to tame a dog shows up in searches, the player gets one shot to tame if they have the skill then the dog is gone.

Kill--ThorYour kidding right this is just horrible!

Kill--What does having a dog add? Humans already have the ability to deal a lot of damage, to heal themselves, revive people, and find items somewhat easily. If you want a dog just to have a dog, pretend. --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--I shouldn't have to give any explanation.--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--I have a dog. His name is Frank. Animals are mentioned somewhere on this page, and were rejected as real game objects by just about everyone, since they'd give Humans an unneeded edge. Without them, there's no reason for this skill.--Wilcox 28 Oct 2005

• Electronics - Player is able to start vehicles & machines with a toolkit and control them.
  • Repairing - Player can fix broken machines and vehicles with spare parts & toolkit.

Kill--Thor no point to this no need for vehicles and how would you fill the gas tank anyway?

Kill--Problems: There are no vehicles, and the power is out.

'Kill--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Besides, there's no description of the benefits of vehicles and machines. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Summon Zombies - Works like the Call to Arms skill I proposed above, but for zombies. Intended for people playing cultist characters, and can continue to be used when a character dies and rises as a zombie.

--Kill--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor is a reason needed?

--Kill-- You already have flares... --Adrian 10:59, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Observation - Instead of being able to see a 3x3 area, the player can see a 5x5 region. Possible server load problems?

Kill--Thor HOw would any skill make a person see farther? what are their bionics now?

Kill--If cars that can move 5 squares in 1 AP are a bad idea because you'd have to see that far, that makes this a bad idea too. --16:13, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--I don't know about previous judgements, but this seems like a good idea to me.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:49, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- It just doesn't seem worth the server strain. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep -- If the server can handle it, this would be quite useful.--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- I think the lack of info is part of the game. Makes you more careful, which should be the case in a zombie apocalypse type of game. Also, would strain the server and cause suburbs to look small. McArrowni 28 oct 2005

Kill -- AFAIR, the 3x3 grid has already been discussed and seems it's what the server can afford right now. Moreover, makes people more careful as per McArrowni comment. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Sleepless - When you Lose all your AP, You Dont Go to Sleep. Can also be Called "Restless."

One problem is that there might be a "bigger" reason why you go to sleep when you lose all your AP. --Themanwithahat 16:13, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor YOUR SLEEPING !!!!!!!!!!WTF

Kill -- ^ --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

WTF?--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- IMHO is not worth the XP spent. What's the gain? 30 mins of visibility? --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Sanctuary - For 10AP, player can use a crucifix to ask for protection, making himself invisible for zombies until his next action.

Kill--ThorThis is just retarded!

Kill -- For multiple reasons. First, it looks too much like some sort of magical or mystical effect. Second, there are probably multiple players with non-christian religions playing this game. Third, overpowered: not being seen in this game = invincibility. 10AP is a small price to pay for a human who has greater firepower/options than a zombie. McArrowni 28 oct 2005

Stupid -- Very stupid. Nathan DelMonaco

• Locksmith - Buildings that were once locked can be locked again with this ability (5AP). Find a lock at the hardware store in the mall, and maybe a few other places, or repair a broken lock (costs 5AP). Locked buldings can only be entered by players with free running. A building can only be locked if it is without dead bodies or zombies. Jeko 16:19, 15 Oct 2005 (EST)

Kill -- Overpowered --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Doesn't really seem to make the game more interesting. McArrowni 28 oct 2005

Kill--ThorZombies cant enter locked things or break in so NEIN!

--Change/Kill-- Has same effect as heavy barricading, maybe could allow acess to heavily barricaded buildings instead ?

• Scent Life - Zombie can detect Zombie Hunters disguised as dead bodies.

Requires the Zombie Hunter hiding skills. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Brain Bite - If you kill a survivor with a bite attack they lose 10 XP for every level they had beyond the first.

Not a bad idea, but it should probably be moved to a tree similar to that of Headshot. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- I really don't see a need for headshot to have a zombie skill counterpart. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor This would be silly at best.

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- No need for another griefers' skill. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

Keep/change--heamo makes sense, but it should be only avalable to lv10 zombies, like humans

• Hunger of the Dead - Zombies can feed on the corpse of a Human they just killed in order to make Reviving more difficult. The Zombie feeds on the corpse they just killed and causes so much damage to the body that when a Necrotech Employee attempts to revive the recently killed Zombie, there is a 10-30% chance of failure. This would work similarly to Headshot where the attack is automatic upon killing a Human PC. This skill will not work on other Zombies.

Kill--Thor Just get brainrot to avoid revives.

Why shouldn't this work on other Zombies? --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Seems like it's only purpose is to grief. Locking yourself into a zombie is fine, but making it more difficult for others to be revived just seems... annoying. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Ditto. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Grim Renewal - The Zombie can regenerate, and regains 3 health every time it gains an AP (i.e. 3 hp every half hour).

Kill--Thor your kidding right? their not vampires their ZOMBIES!

Kill--This doesn't seem too important. Zombies tend to be either near-full health or dead, and if they're dead they don't need to regenerate, and if they are near-full health, it doesn't matter much. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Doesn't seem important to you, therefore kill? It's a suggestion, and it goes well with the zombie concept. Besides, it protects from headshots, so it IS a useful skill after all.Monstah 17:56, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- It seems to go well with the zombie concept, therefore keep? Just because it goes well with the concept doesn't make it useful or important. It really wouldn't be that effective at preventing headshots, either. Humans easily kill zombies even at full HP, and rarely try without the means to do so. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Not worth the 100XP to spend, IMO. Especially if you have Ankle Grab. Better be knocked down and raise again on full HPs, with just 1 AP. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Swarm-Works just like a flare, but for zombies.

• Sleepless Watching - Building barricades gain +10% chance to fail for every 10 zombies in the area.

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Barricading is perfect as it is now. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

Kill--Thor So they just stand there and dont use ap to do it and they fall like the walls in the bible?

• Restless - If interacted with in any way (including healing or DNA extraction) when the player is logged out/brain is shut down, the zombie will take one swipe (random attack type) at the opponent. This is a pure reflex move and does not cost AP on one hand, but a hit gives no XP either on the other.

Kill--Thor No actions should be performed when not doing them yourself.

Kill--Right now, most "interactions" take place while logged out. Also, does the game actually keep track of who is logged in and who isn't? --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- I believe the only thing that keeps track of whether or not you're logged in is the cookie stored on your computer, nothing server side, in other words. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Runner - Running Zombie (per 28 Days Later | modern Dawn of the Dead). For every two consecutive squares moved, Zombie can move one additional consecutive square without spending an Action Point.

Kill--Thor Thats just free ap basically!

Kill--Humans don't get to run this fast. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--So add an "athletisicm" or "endurance" or some other name skill with the same effect.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:59, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Zombie skills shouldn't need a human counterpart in order to be balanced. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Hardly seems worthwhile.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Another way to mess with APs. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Death Trap - When zombie dies, and is attempted to be revived, there is a 50% chance of a 10HP attack.

Kill--Thor This doesnt cost any ap and can be done without the player even being active. I vote no on all of these bot type of suggestions.

Kill--All zombies are "alive" when you try to revive them. This also makes reviving too dangerous.--Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Too dangerous. So what? This is supposed to be a zombie apocalypse game, isn't it? What is safe in those conditions? Besides, reviving zombies at random is much like using a sirynge as a weapon, to diminish the opposite side. You know, they shouldn't be used like that.Monstah 17:56, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- No one sane is using them as attacks now that most zombies have ankle grab. And what about zombies who do wish to be revived? It'd stop NecTechs from reviving them, too. Shadowstar 20:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill --AFAIK, ankle grab doesn't work when you've just been revived, so it's still a 10 AP penalty. However, considering how tough syringes are to come by, I don't think more disincentives are needed for the revive process. --Bananafsh 20:45, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Ankle grab works when you've been revived, and in fact works in all cases now. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change -- 10 HP is waaayyyy too much.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Shadow Lurk - Zombie can hide in a building or graveyard and has the element of surprise. The zombie is not revealed until it attacks unless discovered. 50% possibility of being revealed by a flashlight. 50% possibility of being revealed by a dog. 10% possiblity of being revealed by an ordinary search.

Kill--This isn't Doom 3. --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor agreed this isnt doom! and what dogs and flashlights?

• Offal Slick - Allows Zombies to cover floors of occupied buildings with blood and guts, for 5AP. Causes all non-Zombies to act clumsily while doing anything; all actions by survivors cost an extra 1AP. Also jams the doors open. Offal Slick can only be removed by survivors with "construction".

Kill--Thorwaste of ap and just doesnt make any sense at all.

Kill--Why wouldn't this affect the clumsier zombies? And if it did affect zombies, what would be the point? --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Dead Calm - Player requires no additional AP to move out of buildings infested with zombies.

Obviously this requires certain zombie skills that are only suggestions right now.

• Cadaver Camouflage - Player can fake being a dead body for 10 AP.

Would this be that useful? --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Yes, it would mean that at night, you can go to sleep for 10AP and still be on the same side in the morning. I'd waste 10AP on it sometimes. But I think it'd have to have a caveat of not being usable during a battle somehow... Shadowstar 04:06, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- As per my comment on deathly torpor. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor I dont understand the purpose of this besides wasting AP and taking the fun out of the survival aspect of a safehouse.

Kill--Person kills zombies... surrounded.. ready to make last stand... becomes dead body... stays hidden till all have gone.--Adrian 18:17, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Funeral Pyre - Sets fire to the zombie, destroying all of its AP, must spend time regenerating AP and there for cannot stand up immediatly after being downed.

Kill--Thor I think anything that destroys AP takes the fun out of the game for any player.

Change--Maybe a set number of AP and only if you have certain items? --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Headshot + this = Zombies can't level, ever. I don't think any amount of changing will solve that.

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change-- If And STAY Down... isn't implemented, I'd like to see this, just to counter Ankle Grab. Maybe make it so that it only destroys a set amount of AP and the zombie can't stand up for a while (but requires several AP to use)? --Arcibi 29 Oct 2005

Kill--Thor Your kidding right? theres only 50 ap to begin with so lets not go messing with it.

Kill-- Anything which reduces your ap by this amount is bad. --Zark the Damned 12:26, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Mortal Enemy - Any Zombie which damages the hunter to 10 HP or less becoems the mortal enemy... The hunter will do 10% more damage to him, and if sucessfully killed; will gain 10AP from adrenaline. However hunter will lose will to fight (a number of AP) if he fails to kill the enemy

• • Past Life - The Zombie Elite can vaguely remember how to operate things it used when it was alive. It can attack using weapons with all of its human combat skills, but uses 2 AP instead of 1 for all object actions (Bub was a decent shot with that .45, even if he wasn't going to win any quickdraw competitions). Also, there should be a small percentage (5%?) that the object is destroyed or dropped by the clumsy zombie. This skill should be kept 'buried' in a tree, however, to prevent misuse (zombie hunters buying only it and keeping an inventory full of syringes to use on themselves, for instance).

Or make the items they can use limited. They could use axes and guns, but scientific equipment like Syringes, Phones and Extractors would be beyond them. Besides, clumsy Zombie fingers would probably shatter the syringe anyway. --Wilcox

Kill -- Or hey, why not just give them all the abilities of survivors, and then give survivors a counterpart skill to balance it out. Then the only difference between the opposing groups is the name. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- I liked Bub, but a horde of zombies is threat enough without giving them guns. --Arcibi 30 Oct 2005

Kill--Thor Zombies can use items allready if they want to use other items then play as survivors.

Major Changes Discussion

Suggestion: An actual skill tree system

Most RPGs have a skill tree system whereby if you select a certain class or character type, you are limited in what skills you can acquire, or get certain bonuses/penalties for being a member of that character class. As it stands right now, all humans can "max out" and eventually acquire every skill. By limiting skill acquisition to certain classes, or by incorporating bonuses/penalties or class-specific skills, it would promote character diversity and cooperation among players.

One could argue such a system already exists, in a limited sort of way. The way it is now, you spend less on science skills if you're a science class, and more on military skills. Works the same in reverse for the military classes. --Raelin 19:58, 29 Sep 2005 (BST)

However, at the end of the day, if one puts enough effort into it, anyone can get any skill. Thus defeating the point of a true "skill tree" system. --Xenomrph 20:24, 29 Sep 2005 (BST)

In real life, if one puts enough effort into it, they can get any skill. --Radoteur 20:29, 29 Sep 2005 (BST)

There are primarily 2 general styles of role-playing games: those with restrictive classes that have class-specific rules (Dungeons and Dragons and Rifts come to mind) and those that are class-less and point-based (GURPS, Hero), which allow anyone to create any sort of character using any combination of skills and abilities. Urban Dead is quite obviously of this second, more configurable genre. Having an occupation (Medic, Technician, Soldier) is like having a certain advantage in that some occupations begin with certain skills, while other occupations may have less skills but are aided with having some skill trees less costly. In all, it should balance out. Currently, there is a very low number of skills to choose from, and eventually YES everyone will have the same skills. The only way to solve this is to broaden the skill trees. --Squashua 20:45, 29 Sep 2005 (BST)

A broadened skill tree would be nice but if a couple or so skills remained class only (such as "Lab Experience" will be unique to NecroTechs or "Advanced Pistol Training" will be unique to Military) it would make having class diversity more important and interesting. A nice addition to class diversity would be unique searching capabilities/skills i.e. NecroTechs have a much greater chance at finding syringes, Cops have a much greater chance at finding ammunition, etc. All in all, this game is great and I would love to see it become more developed. --Suggestion Guy 18:19, 29 Sep 2005 (PT)

Exactly, that's precisely the sort of thing I had in mind. People could still get a lot of skills (and cross-class skills), but there'd be certain class-specific skills, and other skills which would be more efficiently used by specific classes (i.e., Military characters simply have a higher to-hit percentage with firearms than other classes do, Doctors are more likely to find first-aid kits, etc). --Xenomrph 00:57, 30 Sep 2005 (BST)

This is a tad off subject but I put a few ideas for zombie variants on the Bad Suggestions page under "Tendency to Omnipotence". I didn't want to clutter up this page, so I decided to put it on the less cluttered Bad Suggestions page and, also, it might be a little complex to incorporate. It discusses broadening and diversification of zombie skills and "classes", I would like to see some feedback.

This is a nice idea. Currently, everyone just ends up with the same skills, and all characters are clones of each other after a month or so. Class diversity = Long Term Appeal, which is what this game needs, especially considering that staying alive A) Isn't a challenge and B) Is pointless. --Cortman 11:09, 5 Oct 2005 (BST)

I feel strongly that it SHOULD be possible to get every skill. I was always very annoyed in games such as Final Fantasy 9 where no one character could get every skill--I liked FF10's system much better, and that is where I get this idea from; allow everyone to get every skill, but make it progressively harder to get the next skill. Instead of the flat 100 XP cost with the class modifiers, have the first skill one buys cost, say, 50 XP (with the 3/4 mod for class skills, i.e. 43 when rounded, and x1.5 for cross-class i.e. 75) and either have the cost go up by a pre-specified ladder of XP costs--50, 60, 75, 100, 125, 150, and so on, for instance--or simply have the cost be multiplied by a certain amound with every successive level. I'd suggest x1.25, or x1.5 if you really want skills to be gained slowly. Thus, the first skill costs 50, then 63, then 79, 99, 124, and so on multiplying by 1.25 for each skill. The class modifiers would still apply--a scout buying advanced pistol training when moving to level 5 would cost (99*.75)=74 XP.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 20:42, 17 Oct 2005 (BST)

I think there should be a tree, but some skills copied and given another name.. this is to allow people to remain what they were.. yet have the same abilities. Example I doubt what a scientist would want with tagging... This would allow you also to change skill gain... and not allow powergaming.. Example If a scientist learns how to fight.. his XP will go up faster.. but what kind of science skill should he learn from fighting? Scientists already have a low XP gain, this could be changed if only the skill tree for scientists are allowed.--Adrian 18:47, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Page Discussion

Ideas for Voting System and Guidelines

Well I had some ideas about guidelines for voting on suggestions, and since something needs to be done, I figured I'd post them, and open up some discussion. These are very basic so far, and may not be very well thought out, but it's a start.

• Votes are cast on the talk page. Every suggestion has a section to vote on it.
• There's a link to the relevant vote section next to the suggestion, on the suggestion page. (e.g. [vote]).
• Voters must begin their comment with a bolded vote. Kill, Keep, Change, Neutral, or some combination thereof.
• Authors may not vote on their own suggetion.
• 3 unopposed kill votes mean the suggestion can go. Otherwise, it stays.
• If a suggestion goes a week with no votes, it is removed.
• All removed suggestions are placed in an archive page, where they can continue to be voted on. 3 unopposed keep votes there will restore it to the main suggestion page.

Anyone else have some ideas/comments/critisisms? --Raelin 18:19, 14 Oct 2005 (BST)

I started moving things around, shuffled most of the general into the categories suggested below, except I deleted the tunnelling idea as bloody impractical and it not being a frequently suggested addition at all, and I deleted the one requesting that reading a book gives you a badly spelled message all in caps. After starting this however, I realized that I simply don't feel cocksure enough to go around whole-sale deleting all of what I'd consider crap, partially because I haven't been invovled for that long (so don't know whether something might actually suggested fairly often or what) and partially because I'm just a wuss that doesn't want to offend anyone. :)

At any rate, getting to the subject at hand, why not just make every suggestion a link to its own page, as I mentioned before, and thus each suggestion can be talked about, voted on, whatever, without crapping up the rest? People won't have to look through tons of votes on things they don't care about, etc. -- Kwil 17:56, 15 Oct 2005 (BST)

The main problem have with the seperate pages thing is that it really destroys the readabilty of the suggestions. Instead of having one condensed page to look over, you have around 30 (maybe more or less, depending on how it's set up) pages to click through. Also, with seperate pages for every suggestion, we have to problem that normal users can no longer remove suggestions. Mods would have to click through every page's talk, see the votes, and delete the page. Suggestions for skills are on average very short, and I'm a little bit iffy on having a whole page devoted simply to a sentence or two. If we link to the voting section right next to the suggestion, looking through tons of votes shouldn't really be an issue. --Raelin 21:37, 15 Oct 2005 (BST)

Going a little further, I've started a mock-up of what this might look like on my user page. I've only done a few of the suggestions, as it's actually a fair amount of work. But this system has the benefits in that everybody can see all the suggestions at once, so there's no need to go hunting through a dozen different sections to try to find if a suggestion has been posted, and if the description is limited to a single short sentence about what the suggestion does (not the justifications for it or the reasoning behind it) the suggestions page itself shouldn't get unwieldy. --Kwil 18:37, 15 Oct 2005 (BST)

A seperate page for exceptionally large suggestiones could help to reduce the size of the page. Though, I'd say it still wouldn't be neccesary to move them to their own sepearate page. That's where some seperate category pages could come in handy. --Raelin 21:37, 15 Oct 2005 (BST)

Geesh, I'm just full of ideas today. Anyway, for specific voting guidelines, how about making it even more simple -- if Kill votes exceed Keep votes, and there hasn't been a new vote in a week, the idea is gone. Authors *do* vote on their own suggestion, meaning at least two kill votes are needed thereafter. --Kwil 19:02, 15 Oct 2005 (BST)

Yeah, I suppose a 3 vote majority was pushing it a little. That sounds good. --Raelin 21:37, 15 Oct 2005 (BST)

It seems to me more than half of the assorted suggestions posted today (see timestamp) belong in the humorous or just bad categories. Consensus?--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 21:31, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

Maybe this needs a "Free-for-All Suggestions" page as a way in; that anyone can submit any old rubbish to that page, and it'll get copied to either "humorous", "bad" or a new "approved suggestions" page according to some system or other. Even something as simple as "any user can append a plus, a minus or a smiley to a suggestion - three of any gets it moved to the corresponding page" would be enough.

But this is all getting a bit overblown, for aspects of the game that aren't going to be expanding very quickly. You people should really try Nomic if you want to do the game-mechanics-as-analogy thing. --Kevan 22:02, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

The whole problem with the suggestions page is that retarded people make retarded suggestions every hour of every day. There's two solutions to this: have someone delete the retarded suggestions or delete the page entirely. Since apparently you don't want anyone doing the former, the latter is really the only option.

People either think their idea is silly and not meant to be taken seriously, or it should be implemented in the game right now. There is no middle ground - anyone unsure of a suggestion either doesn't suggest it, or finds it's been suggested by someone more assertive already. What happens is that you don't get a page where only the best suggestions are, you get a hideous pile of crap where people throw in every moronic thought they've ever had. Terrorist training? TNT? It all goes in, with (and here's the thing) many, many people ready and willing to attest it being the best Goddamn idea ever.

Arbitrary voting systems like "add a plus/minus" don't work and never will, especially not here. Neither will anything except having moderators pay close attention to the page and keep it free of such crap as 100%-to-hit attacks and magic Jesus powers. But that's never going to happen, so you might as well either delete the page or basically keep it as the bloated abyss of stupidity it is inevitably destined to be.

Also, I'm predicting there will be at least one reply referring to my former moderator status here, as if that has anything to do with matters. Beyond the fact that after I was demodded this page instantly became pure shit, I mean. --Katthew 22:14, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

Katthew. You desperately need to understand an idea that has been pounded into your head by the combined populace of UD for far too long already. We know you have ideas and that they don't agree with ours. You are in the minority by a large amount. This does not necessarily mean you are wrong. However, wikis work on consensus. Rail on talk pages as much as you want. Try to make people agree with you. Fine. But unilateral movements to promote your ideas of how the wiki should be will simply not be accepted. Many of the ideas on the suggestions page are complete crap. This is acknowledged fact. We will deal with it in a deliberate and democratic fashion. Wiki wars are some of the most pointless wastes of time possible. Stop wasting your time and ours.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 22:37, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

Terrorist Training Enables player to strap C4 charges to himself, could be useful for zombie spies. Always kills the user of the skill, at severe health loss (-25-30?).

AK - Weapon, Human only. shoots all zombies at ramdom, 5AP to use. Shoots until all zombies in area are dead or clip is empty. 15% chance to hit each zombie at 5HP of damage and clip has 35 rounds.

C4 Charge/Plastic Explosive Stuck onto a building and causes massive damage to all units in area (human and zombie) and destroy all barricades. Should do 30-50-ish damage and should be immensly rare, and require Demolitions skill to use. When placed detonator added to inventory, or perhaps it should be time activated.

Defibrillation - Player can use shock paddles to revive the recently fallen (ie, no zombie skills) without chance of infection. Requires shock paddles. The revived player can stand up for only 3 AP.

Faith - When inside a church, player can use crucifix to attack zombies, making them blind until they leave the church (or unable to do anything but leaving, or causing it massive damage).

Animal Taming - Gives 30% chance to tame a dog (or other animal) upon finding one. The opportunity to tame a dog shows up in searches, the player gets one shot to tame if they have the skill then the dog is gone.

Memories of Fire - Zombie has a low chance of setting a building on fire. Survivors inside of building loose HP if they take action inside of building. Barricades are weakened. How? Zombies knock over gasoline cans or tear electrical wires, starting a fire.

Flash of Blades - A Zombie hunter with this skill can utilize a knife to devastating effect, directing an assult not towards a zombie but its protective covering. Flak Jackets for the living.

Zombie Spook - For zombies that have reached a fairly high level, they have the ability to upgrade to a zombie spook with less health but higher % bite hit ratio and additional bite damage. Story: Spooks have learned how to blend into the environment and, also, learned to secrete a sticky substance (most likely cuagulated blood) from their hands. They use the substance to climb surfaces, finding ways around most barricades. It has also been known to use the substance as a make-shift snare to trap victims. (Idea was influenced by the "Reapers" in Blade II)

VooDoo Needle- Revivification syringe's needle left inside your rotting corpse becomes a sort of compass that points toward the largest concentration of humans within a specified radius. "The needle swings to the north."

Dynamite - Can be used to severely damage barricades..

"Mutation" mission - Basically, this idea is somehting of an 'endgame' quest for very high-level characters. Either side can start it, and altough similar, it goes along different paths for suvivors and zombies. To embark on the mission, one must be of a certain level (10? More?), and it's a random happening in Necrotech buildings. Said quest would launch a survivor on a wild goose chase, from clue to clue, preferably with randomised target destination too. A zombie on the other hand would have to develop himself to be capable of unserstanding at least the gist of the clues, but would have zombie intuition and instincts to fill in for what he didn't know. Ultimately, the player would need to acquire a Pathogen Sample, an otherwise extremely rare item, and then do some questiing to actually know how to use it. Applying the Pathogen Sample to yourself completes the quest, and gives the player a rare skill, reserved only for dedicated, good players.

ALL ACTUAL SUGGESTIONS.

I was going to say something witty here, but Hell, after that monumental pile of excrement it'd be rather lost on people. Kevan, let me know when you implement the magic anti-zombie Jesus powers, mutated Spider-Man monsters and the multiple forms of explosives. That way I know you've gone even more insane for even allowing this fucking retarde crap on the wiki. But hey, who needs common sense when you've got a horde of drooling mongoloids with less brains between them than every imaginary zombie in Malton, ready to suggest new shit at a moment's notice? It'll be great when these fantastic new improvements sap away whatever fun is left in this game and replace it with 'SWORDS AND EXPLOSIONS!!

What the Hell am I doing? Sarcasm is wasted on the stupid. I might as well explain rationality to a creationist. --Katthew 23:15, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

"I say there are only two very extreme solutions therefore you must pick one!" isn't a particularly compelling argument. A screening stage seems to work okay for bug reports, and I imagine it'd satisfy the TNT/Jesus crowd - they'll either post and forget and never care what happens, or be content that their idea is at least staying on a page on the Internet somewhere, even if it's on "rejected suggestions" instead of "approved".

A bloated abyss that regular Wiki users know to ignore seems preferable to a deleted page and a load of people looking for other Wiki pages to post their Jesus-powers onto. --Kevan 22:47, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kevan, you've made a vaguely passable game that I spend time on for some reason. However, you can be an utter idiot sometimes. I just explained why a screening system will never work: the TNT/Jesus crowd is the majority here. Maybe those with common sense outnumber the stupid, but the stupid are louder and won't go away. When I was mod, I screened the suggestions: I asked people and I listened. I deleted "zombie mutations" after many people told me it was crap, including me. What happened then? Some asshole argues with me constantly until later I give him a two-day ban to calm down and BAM! I'm demodded for abusing my powers. Nice decision on that, you totally checked to see what the fuck was going on before instantly leaping to a decision. Then, once I was rendered completely and utterly useless (as ex-mods often are) the suggestions page turns to shit and we get magic Jesus powers and TNT.

I am not being motivated by jealousy, envy or anything like that. If anything, it's residual care for this wiki despite it being full of retards who have treated me like crap. You included, unfortunately, for the reasons I've said. Now, despite ignoring this fetid place of drama and ignorance for weeks, I feel a sudden compulsion to do something good. What happens? Reverted. Because hey, MAGIC JESUS POWERS!!

Trust me on this, even though you have never shown me one iota of trust in the past: a voting system won't work. "Approving content" won't work. These people will not be content with having their suggestion "somewhere" - they want it in the game because they genuinely believe it to be the best idea ever. I am not exaggerating, I know these types of people. They want it in the game, regardless of how impossible it would be to code in, or how ridiculously unbalanced it would make the gameplay. They don't consider such things, all they care is how "cool" it would be. Does this make them retarded? Yes, yes it fucking does, they're idiots. Nothing you do short of strictly moderating ONE PAGE out of God knows how many hundreds will work. But, as I said before, you don't want that to happen otherwise you wouldn't have demodded me for doing my fucking job.

It occurs to me that your argument proves too much, if it proves anything - if these people won't be content with having their suggestion somewhere, why would they be content with it being nowhere? Your system of "nuke 'em all" seems a recipe for protracted edit-warfare. Unless you intend to either protect the page or Block every person who attempts to have another stab at an improved version of their idea (even if the idea is crap), the entire page is going to be in a constant state of flux as the suggestion whores and the mod in charge spend hours reverting to their preferred state of the page. If they really want their idea on the front page that much they're not going to care who has what authority. In fact, they're more likely to flip out and go insane since a singular person seems to be out to get them (which, in fact, they'd be correct in thinking). -- Odd Starter 07:57, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

This page will either be strictly moderated or a hellhole. This is not hyperbole. This is not two extremes I am randomly picking out of mid air. This is how it will be. Suspend your disbelief and try to imagine, for one moment, that I am not the crazy bitch everyone says I am. Try to picture me as someone who (despite swearing a lot out of force of habit) may just have the interests of this wiki at heart. Look upon me and see someone who got kicked out of her job due to the fictional accusations of a handful of morons - and yet still tries to do that job. Dedicated? No, I'm stupid. I'm a complete and utter fucking moron for thinking you might listen, because deep down I know you'll ignore me as crazy ol' Katthew being all mean and swearing and yelling at people. Whatever hope I may have that you'll pay attention to what I wrote instead of ignoring it like you always do is almost nonexistent, but it's there. Fadin' fast. In fact, it's just gone. Good luck coding the magic Jesus powers. --Katthew 23:15, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

And of course, you still ignore every counterargument we've given to spout the same stuff over and over. "It won't work," "this is how it will be," "suspend your disbelief" replace what in a useful argument would be proof, or some other actual reason to agree with you. Stupid people have been in the majority since the beginning of time. This does not mean the only way smart people can create change is by overruling everything one single smart person (I'm willing to accept that whatever your faults, you're not actually stupid) decides isn't worthy. Completely aside from whether what you want to do is right (it isn't), you do not have the authority to effect this change and did not at any point. If you can't stand to see change come about peacefully and slowly, I'm very sorry, but that doesn't mean you can send your armies of wiki editing into the Iraq of stupid suggestions on a unilateral crusade against what you think doesn't belong. There is a midpoint between cesspit and oligarchy, and it will be reached.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 23:35, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

Here's the thing, Rum: I have experience because, unlike you, I am not some 14-year-old faggot. I have seen this kind of thing happen before. I've watched as vapid, empty-headed dipshits like you have added idiotic thing after idiot thing because they think it was so badass in Halo/Doom/Pitch Black/whatever. I've moderated things longer than you've been capable of controlling your bowel movements. Yes, that's right: more than a week. Several years, in fact.

Maybe your tiny, tiny mind cannot comprehend anyone knowing more than you do, but rest assured: 99% of the world's mammalian life is smarter than you. That includes me, who is smarter than 99% of the world's mammalian life. I've experience more than you probably ever will in your pathetic little life of touching yourself and wetting your pants.

There is nothing you can do, short of exactly what I've said. Which isn't an oligarchy, you fucking mongoloid. Don't use dictionary words to try and look smart when you can't even tie your own shoes. No, you will do exactly what I've said, either out of your own volition or because your malformed grey matter can't handle more than one idea at a time. It's that or the Suggestions page stays the absolute shithole it currently is. Thanks to you, I might add, you worthless lump of human flesh.

Even though Kevan has temporarily lost his mind and given you power which you have no idea how to use effectively, nor would if you knew anyway, I still feel confident in calling you an utter fuckwit who wouldn't be able to moderate a paper bag with adult supervision. If, by some miracle, you remain a mod for more than a few days at most, I guarantee that not only will you do a shitty job, but this page will never, ever get better as long as you're its self-appointed guardian. To use an analogy, which your simple mind might be able to comprehend, it is like you have been given the job of Chief Taster at a chocolate factory that makes everything out of shit, blood and urine. Doing your job well will be the most thankless and horrible task your underdeveloped mind will be able to comprehend, and yet not doing it will accomplish nothing whatsoever. You have a choice, Rum: choke down that shit or do nothing whatsoever.

I'll be here ready to explain anything I just said, but I doubt you're smart enough to actually comprehend such complicated concepts as "I know more than you" and "you are stupid" so I guess I'll have to put up with you going "HURRR THAT'S NOT A REASON" again, despite the fact a fucking two-year-old could understand this. Moron. --Katthew 11:56, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

I'd say a screening page seems a pretty fair way to deal with it. I'll even go so far as to set it up myself, if we can get some agreement on how exactly it should work. --Raelin 23:03, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

Katthew, can you please explain why you couldn't keep defending the logic of this page after you were demodded? --LibrarianBrent 03:33, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Because idiots don't pay attention to what non-mods say? Just a thought here. I think that's been pretty much proved when I edited this page and it got reverted. There's not much point in me trying to do anything with this page since there are people convinced that mutating zombies and magic Jesus powers are the best things ever, ready to defend them tooth and nail against the forces of common sense. --Katthew 11:56, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

You know, if you really want this page to improve, you probably shouldn't revert my improvements. --LibrarianBrent 13:25, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

I've discovered that it's stupid for me to care about this wiki, so I've become the model editor. I shall add in as many suggestions as I can, revert edits that don't follow the rules to the very letter and, last but not least, discard all vestiges of common sense and become one with the vacuous horde. --Katthew 13:30, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

So, in effect, you've decided that you're tired of people having opposing opinions to you, so you're going to pretend that they don't exist? -- Odd Starter 13:38, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

No, I've decided that idiots will always be idiots and that trying to talk common sense into rampant faggots like you isn't worth effort. Nice attempted insult, though, I'm sure that with a little effort you might mildly upset a retarded two-year-old someday. Until then, entertain thoughts of ending your miserable life because it has no purpose and the world would be better off without you. --Katthew 13:50, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

You know, I get this odd feeling that you don't like me. But, hey, your life. -- Odd Starter 14:08, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Jeez, Chill the fuck out. It's just a stupid wiki for a game. Even if everyone went crazy and voted for superpowers that's no guarantee that they would make it into the game. Relax. And Katthew, apparenly "mutant Jesus powers" aren't so unrealistic seeing as you have the ability to read peoples' minds over the internet. I agree that there are stupid people, a lot of them. But don't freak out like that. It just makes you look like the bad guy. Idiot faggot fuck Nathan DelMonaco signing off.

Suggestions Page Needs An Enema

Seriously. I wasn't enamored of Katthew's itchy-trigger-finger deletion methods, but the page is rapidly becoming utter crap because most people don't take the time to A) Follow the suggestion guidelines and B) Learn to spell.

I'd like to propose a mass-kill for, at the very least, every comment that isn't actually a suggestion on the suggestion page. I'd also like to propose killing any suggestion that isn't properly spelled, and every suggestion in the general area that isn't, as the description says, something often suggested.

Unless someone says otherwise, I'll probably go ahead with this some-time on the 16th. --Kwil 23:42, 9 Oct 2005 (BST)

I concur. Actually, waht I'd prefer to see is a Suggestions "Recategorization", where we have a primary suggestions page (links only) that goes to a bunch of sub-pages, rather than just have "Combat Suggestions" on it's own. We'd have a Skills Section for each category (Military, Zombie, Generic, Zombie Hunter, etc.) which would be broken down into NEW "Suggest New Skills/Subskills Here" and EXISTING "Suggest alteration to existing skills here". Each section would have a BLATANT LINK to the discussion page that says "Click here to DISCUSS these suggestions" because people seem to be too inept to click "discussion" at the top of the Wiki. Additional pages would include "Skills in General" (for stuff like the Skills Tree), "User Interface Suggestions", "Suggest New General Actions" (for stuff like dragging bodies), "Suggest New Weapons", "Bad Suggestions Page" and "Suggest Events" (for things like Quests and Fire). I was going to break it down myself into this sort of organization, but I felt that the change would be too sweeping. --Squashua

As an alternative, why not give each suggestion it's own page? If someone makes a suggestion they can make the name of it a link, and all discussion (including alternative names) can be hosted on that page. This would also enable us to drastically cull this page, making it all easier to load. --Kwil 04:25, 10 Oct 2005 (BST)

I've been meaning to pull out some more sub-categories, but haven't had the time. (I haven't even moved the talk about combat suggestions over to the proper talk page.) Here are some: "Movement Suggestions" (to encompass Movement Hindrances, but add other stuff), "Character Class Suggestions" (for discussion of classes, with skills), "Goal Suggestions" (for missions and quests), "Action Point Suggestions" (for discussion of the pace of the game), "Hunger Suggestions" (for that new subsystem). There's no reason to do all of it at once. I first made "Combat Suggestions" just by picking out a large category of stuff and moving it.--mortimer shank 04:31, 11 Oct 2005 (BST)

If we are going to do a split off, we should probably make a full list, then pull each of them off. My suggested splits:

• Suggestions
• Suggestions/Military Skills and Combat (and fold Combat Suggestions into this page)
• Suggestions/Science Skills
• Suggestions/Zombie Skills
• Suggestions/Civilian Skills
• Suggestions/Other Skills
• Suggestions/Movement
• Suggestions/Interface
• Suggestions/Communication
• Suggestions/Missions
• Suggestions/Other Items
• Suggestions/Other
• Suggestions/Humourous

My reasonings for such a large number is that with each concept having their own page, it encourages people to focus their suggestions, and (hopefully) make smaller, more manageable suggestions. And, if people want to make systems that incorporate multiple categories, they can always link to other suggestions pages from their original idea to do so, and explain why the link exists (this is a wiki, after all). Also, this fairly neatly cuts up just about everything on this page, leaving this page to be a portal to all the other suggestions pages. It's not like we need to worry about people missing guidelines too - we can set up a Template to put the guidelines on every page.

The Search Odds people just finished restructuring their neck of the woods by using subpages, it looks like this place needs it more than we did. Keeping everything as subpages should work nicely, like it has there, and does make it look more like "These are all in the Suggestions Section". Navigation may be a problem, but surely someone can make up a navigation Template, as it's not that hard... -- Odd Starter 02:49, 14 Oct 2005 (BST)

Skills and Items are not separate in terms of gameplay, since their effects interact. Items and skills are mechanisms to accomplish some goal for the game experience. Discussion of the mechanisms independent of the goals leads discussion into dead ends. For example, the civilian skill Bodybuilding is a combat skill, at the end of the day. Zombie and survivor combat skills should be discussed together to promote game balance and to avoid the tendency toward omnipotence. Of the categories above, "movement", "communications", and "missions" are of this type.--mortimer shank 16:57, 15 Oct 2005 (BST)

As noted, as this is a wiki, linking is as easy as pie, so even with category splits, it should be easy to link to context. I placed these up because this actually connected reasonably to what the Suggestions page looks like now. And, you know, if we're going to split the page to keep individual page sizes down, we should do it to the greatest extent possible, to ensure the problem isn't one for as long as possible.

Still, I'd be happy to see your ideas for splitting the page up. Feel free to give even a short list, to compare. -- Odd Starter 03:20, 16 Oct 2005 (BST)

Not so sure splitting this page up is what's needed. The existing splits only seem to cause alot of redundancy, and they're quickly becoming just as full and disorganized. In my opinion, further splitting would only serve to make editing and reviewing more difficult. Some of this stuff just needs to be decided on and edited out, or changed. Perhaps a system for voting on suggestions would help matters. I mean, what's the point of having a "peer reviewed" suggestion page, if none of the peers are reviewing it? --Raelin 05:29, 14 Oct 2005 (BST)

I thought that people were reviewing it - just that noone's doing any more than that, like removing dead ideas.

I have a suspicion that a splitting up might make it more likely for people to properly review things. Currently, the page is just so fricking massive and cluttered that any new ideas just vanish into the mess, and thus are never discussed. Also, if you're trying to specialise in one particular game aspect, having to search through a whole bunch of text that you're not interested in can cause people to get rather disinterested.

I'm also thinking the reason that we're getting redundancy issues is because everyone just assumes that the suggestions page is the place to put stuff, and never bothers to check the subpages. By making the main suggestions page a portal page, we'll probably lose a lot of redundancy, just because it will be crystal clear where things go, instead of now where we have a few things split off, but not really, because the place is so cluttered that there's no enforcement of page boundaries. Also, once we move all the suggestions into specific sections, we can actually see where the redundancies are, and clear them out simply. Of course, once we do this, we have to come up with iron-clad guidelines (like, f'rex, every single suggestion gets a keep/kill list, including the ones under extended discussion, and we keep to Keep/kill deadlines), but I think we've really been needing something like this anyway, and you're right, we probably don't really have to split the pages to do it - but doing so would keep Talk pages under a reasonable length... -- Odd Starter 05:43, 14 Oct 2005 (BST)

While I agree that it would make things more easier and more organized for those making the suggestions, I think the main problem here is the lack of any decisions being made. It just seems to me that a centralized discussion of ideas is more favorable, since we don't have so many pages to check, review, vote, and edit. The lack of involvement here is my major concern, and I think that splitting would just serve to split what little involvement we do have in discussing the ideas, and making a decision. At best, we should get some guidelines up, and get a working system for reviewing ideas before making such a large change. --Raelin 06:00, 14 Oct 2005 (BST)

Also, breaking the ideas into multiple pages will require the interlinked suggestions to update their links... Okay, I'm just being lazy here ;P --Juntzing 16:19, 22 Oct 2005 (BST)

Ah, you're only appreciated when you're not around anymore. Also it was more of a "I see crap, I delete crap" method, but whatever. --Katthew 16:30, 22 Oct 2005 (BST)

Oh, we still don't appreciate you - in case you hadn't noticed, noone here has actually asked you to continue with your previous reign... -- Odd Starter 15:43, 24 Oct 2005 (BST)

That's because Kevan never reads the wiki, dumbass. Everyone else is too busy screaming "SA IS RUINING THE GAME!!" to actually notice that the place is a damn sight more shit than when I had the ability to delete pages and make edits without some loud-mouth asshole revert the edit, despite the fact that deleting the vast majority of the page was an act of mercy. People never like moderation when it results in their retarded suggestion for grenades being deleted, especially when the mod is someone they dislike merely by association. But I guess I probably used too many difficult words in this comment. Let me sum up: there are idiots on the wiki and I hate them. --Katthew 21:59, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

I've got a question... is that 3:1 human-zombie ratio still accurate? Maybe it's just because I'm in central Malton where there's been a lot of activity, but some of the recent zombie attacks there seem like they might have been significant enough to move the balance a bit...? Wandering around with my (sadly) zombified character, I've seen only 3 barricaded buildings in the last four days or so. Haven't they knocked it down to at all yet? Shadowstar 18:20, 25 Oct 2005 (BST)

Skill Discussion

Skills for Resuggestion

These are skill where the majority of the votes proposed a change, and thus warrant resuggestion with the proposed changes.

• Field Surgery - Player can use a medikit twice before it is used up.

Keep -- I like the idea.. i mean do you really need a whole medikit? --Adrian 18:59, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/Change -- The name could use a little work. Field Medical Work Experience sounds better. Field Surgery doesn't really give me images of using medical kits.--Axe-man 09:02, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Keep -- Instead of adding this skill, modify this way the current flawed First Aid so that it's more interesting. In this moment no scientist acquires it because it gives half XP for the same amount of HP healed. --Seagull Flock 13:47, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor This would heal too much xp and would unbalance the game.

• Prognosis - Represents the exposure of the player to the urban dead environnement hence their ability to recognize when another player has an infected bite wound by displaying the hp next to names in red. This places more priority on healing them over other players and helps those who want to play IC.

Keep -- Seems alright, fairly balanced. Doesn't completely nerf infection, and most people announce that they have an infection already, this just gives those who don't announce it equal priority. --Raelin 22:02, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Kill -- IMHO it's quite useless. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/CHange--Thor Call it Triage and this is usefull but also had an xp gain for doing so to make this skill something worth saving for otherwise its just cute colors.

Kill/Keep -- Analysis isn't useful, because people don't stand around outside. Prognosis is a damn good idea--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Advanced Diagnosis - The Maximum HP of nearby survivors is displayed next to their name, in addition to their current HP.

Kill -- Not very useful as well. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change -- This and Prognosis should probably form a single skill. --McArrowni 28 oct 2005

Ditto.--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

I agree with the combining.--Axe-man 09:02, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Same --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Scent Death - Zombie is able to sense its fellows. A message is displayed, such as "You can smell a mass of decay 5 blocks north" or similar.

Kill--Thor there would be decay everywhere the whole city is fubard.

Keep -- One of my favourites. Helps zombies that aren't organized in a group to gang up against safehouses without the use of metagaming. --McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Change -- The description of how it works is rather vague. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Kill-- I don't want to know how the screen would look like when a suburb is overrun by a zombie horde. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Corpse Slam - Zombie can do double damage to a barrier at the cost of 1 hp per successful attack.

Well, I don't think barricades work quite like this, but the idea of spending HP to have a better chance of destroying the barricades isn't a bad idea. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/Change -- I agree, not a bad idea. From what's written on the Barricades page it works by a 20% chance to knock one of the items off, so increasing the chance to hit instead of the "damage" should be how it works. Though, it could also use a little more tweaking in the HP use department. Perhaps a small(0-2HP), random amount of HP should be deducted per attack? --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep Overpowered (as zombies want to die,) but a good idea.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change -- Ok only if current barricade hit chances aren't modified, and double damage is too much. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

Kill--Thor What purpose would that serve their barricades not tackling dummies dummy!

• Last Grab - Gives a 10% chance of a survivor spending an additional AP to leave the area the zombie is in.

Kill--Thoranything that takes away ap is bad and this is a bad idea to start with.

Keep/Change -- I like this idea, but it's unclear how/if the effect stacks when multiple zombies are in the area. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Ditto--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Mob Mentality - For each zombie within 1 square of a zombie with this skill [whether they have Mob Mentality or not] the zombie gains a 5% to hit with any attack to a maximum of 70%.

It's too powerful as it is right now. Any decent zombie group will be able to get 10 or so zombies in an attack which will easily reach that 70% cap. Even for a random zombie, unless you are in the middle of nowhere (where there probably aren't many humans) there's likely to be at least one zombie in 4 of the 8 surrounding squares which will be able to cap Hand attacks. --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

• • Power to the Horde - For each 5 zombies on the same square as the zombie with this skill, the zombie gains 1 damage to all his attacks, to a maximum of 8 for Bite, and 5 for all other weapons.

This is interesting because it adjusts the zombie requirements of the previous ability. These might not be too bad if the number of zombies needed is higher. --Themanwithahat 21:43, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change -- With some better balancing it could be a decent skill. Same for parent skill. -Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change -- Something like this seems neccesary.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Military Skill Tree

• Rooftop Access - Allows players in a building to see the outside of surrounding buildings and their own building without leaving the building.

Kill -- What's the point? --Raelin 21:57, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Kill-- I think the point is that it lets you see outside without exposing yourself to Zombie attacks. If a building is under attack and is heavily barricaded, it may be prudent to have someone on the roof checking to see what the situation is without exposing themselves to a Zombie attack. However, it doesn't seem like the most usefull or necessary skill. Wilcox

Keep -- I see the point in it. Not necessarily the most urgent skill to implement, but it makes sense. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- not a needed skill --Axe-man 09:02, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Thor Or look out windows its no big deal but yea it should be a given that this is implemented.

Kill -- It's a nice idea, I can see the use for it - it probably shouldn't be a skill, though. It would make a nice feature in some buildings. Anyone in a tower(or whatever) could spend an AP to go up to the roof, and then spend another AP to go back inside. If you're inside you can't see who's on the roof, and vice versa. --Tocky 03:28, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Scientific Skill Tree

• Lab Technician - Player is 25% more likely to find a NecroTech syringes when searching a NecroTech building.

Kill -- Again, I think it's kept low for a reason. Even if it weren't, that's still too high. --Raelin 21:57, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Kill-- It could potentially work with a lower percentage and a different place on the skill tree. Like as a third tiered Necrotech Employment skill, after Lab Experience. But it still seems a bit too easy to get. --Wilcox

Change/Kill -- I agree that 25% is too much, but I see a point in it. Being a scientist sucks right now, see the stats page. There must be a way to make them a bit more interesting. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep -- The biggest problem is that sometimes you find a large amount of DNA and GPS scanners, and lack of syringes which is what you came for in the first place, and it is a lab... so i suppose they will put them all somewhere--Adrian 18:59, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- God forbid anyone has to spend a few days as a zombie...--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Really syringes are in short supply for a reason imagine the mass revives. --Axe-man 09:02, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Thor This is a good skill since shopping does not work in necrotech bldg though i think an upgrade in the shopping tree like scavaging would be better. where scavaging increases search % in all areas.

LOW. FOR. REASON. Why is it people find this so difficult to understand? Please, explain to me how this will help the game, and not just you personally. I'm dying to know. --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Recognition - Player is able to recognize Zombies with "Brain Rot" and will therefore only choose zombies without that skill for revivification.

I really like this idea; it's extremely difficult to use a Necrotech player. These are a bit too powerful though. How about +15% for Lab Technition, and you have to scan the zombie for Recognition. -- Altair Emai

You already have to scan the zombie to know if he's got Brain Rot. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- See what Seagull Flock wrote McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Keep -- Seagull Flock's comment doesn't make any sense. Player is able to recognize Zombies with "Brain Rot" [without scanning]. --Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor That is what the DNA extractor is for.

There's been a misunderstanding. I was commenting Altair's proposal to "scan the zombie for Recognition", which makes no sense because is exactly what happens currently. I haven't expressed any opinion on the skill itself, otherwise I'd have written Keep/Kill and the paragraph indent would be leftmost. --Seagull Flock 13:38, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Then why have scanning at all for brain rots? It is not like you can select the zombie to scan. So why bother? --Axe-man 09:02, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Communications - Can operate portable datacomm equipment. If player has security clearance and an actual comm unit, they can receive security data on the go, not just in NecroTech buildings.

• Security Clearance Alpha - in NecroTech buildings the player can receive info on the number of zombies tagged in the same suburb the past 24 hours. Data could be in the form of "In this area, 33 specimens have been tagged the past 24-hour period". This data is exactly as good and as up-to-date as the DNA tagging done by players in the area.
  • Security Clearance Beta - Same as Alpha, but you get the tagged data plus the number of revivified specimens listed separately. Note that there is zero guarantee that either number is related to the number of zombies actually present.
    • Security Clearance Gamma - Same as Beta, but you get the number of tagged specimens and the number of revivified specimens for each of the surrounding eight suburbs as well. Again note that the numbers are not how many zombies there are, but only how many have been tagged or revivified during the past 24 hours

Keep -- I know there's the zombie tracker, but that's a lot more in-game, probably not hard to implement, and adds significant information to the player.Monstah 03:24, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- IMHO that'd be a too heavy query for the DB, and I see the whole tree quite useless unless it gives the names of the tagged zombies, which would be too much anyway. --Seagull Flock 16:27, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- This is more a database search then a skill. Science/Necrotechs need more active skills than stats, how would you use it?

Kill--Thor This skill seems pointless and would not make the game more fun is this a beurocracy or a game?

Civilian Skill Tree

• Second Wind Same as ankle grab for zombies works on humans who are revived and stand up and uses 1 ap rather than throwing away 10. Players have to stand up to get revived then stand up after its retarded that should cost 20 ap or half a day of doing nothing and getting little game time.

Keep--Thor Useful and does make playing better since players have to stand up once to get revived then again after getting revived.

Buy Ankle Grab It does exactly what this skill does and we don't need counterparts to every skill in the game.

Kill I know we're going to change the suggestions to the new format in a day or two, but I feel the need to comment. First, if you want to reduce the AP cost to stand, save up 100 XP, kill yourself, and buy Ankle Grab. Second, death is not supposed to be a walk in the park; 20 AP is an insanely LOW cost for it.--Milo 03:44, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill Personally I beleive death is all Too easy right now.. all we need, very open to powergaming...

Kill I'm even clear on what this skill is trying to do, but it sounds alot like ankle grab. --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Weight Training - An extra point of damage is dealt when using any melee weapon.

• • Black Belt - +25% chance to hit, and +3 points of damage when attacking with fists. (this makes it a whole lot easier to gain exp as a civilian. Perhaps it should be a branch of it's own?)

Kill--Thor This is a bad idea since still nooone would use fists since even an axe gives more damage and more xp.

Change--Overpowered, but a good idea; not everyone's going to be quite as pathetic with their fists as the average guy.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 21:11, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Why would a civilian bother boosting their punching ability when it's just as easy to buy one of the military skills to improve their combat ability? --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change--I definitely agree with Rumisiel on this one. There should be a reason to use your fists beyond "You do not have an axe". Besides, we have a skill that increases your Knifing abilities, which pretty much everyone considers to be patently useless. I'd make it give fists a base power of 2, with a decent chance to pull off a 4, what with breaking bones and thrusting the septum into the brain. That would make fists usefull without making Axes useless. Also, fists should probably have a slightly higher chance to hit than axes, since it's easier to punch someone than it is to swing an axe at them. Not that much, though, since it could potentially invalidate axes.--Wilcox 28 Oct 2005

• Endurance - Player is able to use 10 additional AP after reach 0, however, these extra AP will cause the player to have negative APs.

Kill--Thor Theres AP for a reason and this is just negating the patience of waiting 5 hours, why not just call it sugar rush since ppl who get it are impatient.

Kill--There isn't a big need for something like this. AP totals/recharge is fine as it is right now. --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/Change--Maybe not this exact method, but I think there whould be somre sort of skill to improve one's AP.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:49, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill/Change -- I like the idea of giving the player the option to go into negative AP temporarily, but this just seems overpowered. Perhaps better if using it gives you 3-10 AP randomly but always puts you 10 AP in the hole. Though, as it is, there's really no reason not to buy this and use it every day. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- What's the deal with negative APs? The user has to wait until they reach 0 to act? Well then, how would it ever get past -1? That's just giving them APs. Even if, when you fall asleep or logout, you must wait till 0, then there's always the option of going down to -9 and waiting. Monstah 03:23, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/Change-- Extend to -10 AP, but if your AP is 0 or less there is a penalty, such as -10% for any action/attack to succeed because you're tired. The major use of this would be to get those last few steps into a secured building. Perhaps it would cost you 1 plus 1 additional AP for every 2 items forming a barricade. (eg: a 'very strongly' barricaded building with 8 items would cost 4 AP to bypass plus 1 to actually enter, or 5 AP total, if your AP is 0 or less). Negative AP may also negate the effect of Free Running. --Tiarnach 14:52, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change-- This is essentially the same as having 60 max AP, which would be a more readily comprehended phrasing.

Kill-- 10 Ap seems high, but 5 Ap seems too low to be of much use. Basically, what we have hear is a skill that would likely be either overpowering or useless. One would be hardpressed to find a way to make this one work without unbalancing the game.Wilcox 28 Oct 2005

Kill/Change-- 10 is too much. Basically, you're covering the cost of finding zombies to kill/running back to hide with this, allowing you to use 50 out of 60 APs to gain xp rather than 40 out of 50. Also, going in the negative is weird, why not just up the max? McArrowni 28 oct 2005

Kill -- there's a reason if the total number of APs is what it is now. Don't mess with it. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Architecture - Player can build barricades twice as effectively.
  • Engineering - Player can detect how well barricaded surrounding buildings are. Maybe with a number of X's after the building name and just to a limited degree.

• • Improved Construction - (Further augmentation of "Architecture")Players can build stronger, improved barricades based on level. Improved Construction would require additional AP (2 AP per use), and might require special materials.

Keep--Thor This would be good and make them more useful than they are now one zombie can knock down a vsb barricade which is retarded. This would be a good idea but the ap waste is stupid that is noted in the suggestion it should be 1 like everything else thats why its a skill.

A single zombie would have to be very lucky to knock down a VSB building. Do you think before you type this stuff? I barely understood that.

Kill -- Barricades are effective enough as it is. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Ditto. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change -- BARRICADES SHOULD BE BUILT FASTER, NOT BETTER!--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change Agree with Milo. however it has to be balanced.. otherwise you can hold 2 zombies out by building, if they�re both attacking the barricades

• Study - After maximum AP is reached, player gains experience at the rate of 1 XP every four hours. Player can also gain an additional 2 XP when reading a book.

Don't know about the book reading XP bonus, but a minor bit of XP gain when AP is full could be nice. --Themanwithahat 16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Easy enough as it is to gain XP. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor Useless!

Keep -- The gain is tiny, but it'd be nice for people who can't be online every day.--Milo 21:00, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep -- I like this idea. I mean, how often is your AP maxed out, really? This would be a decent enough advantage, although it should probably have a cap for players who make a character and let it stew for a week. Also, books are pretty useless right now, and having this ability would make the scientist class a bit more preferable. Wilcox 28 Oct 2005

Keep -- Useful for people who plan to not be able to play all the time. Not by any means a powerful skill, so if this isn't your thing, just don't take it. McArrowni 28 oct 2005

Kill -- I don't like the idea of gaining XP doing basically nothing. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- You can't get XP if you don't play. Simple as that. People don't get better at things by sitting around doing nothing. If you want to "study" read the wiki. If you want experience, go outside and kill something. Nathan DelMonaco

Kill -- In 166 days of not playing, you would have gained 1000XP; i could just create a character and never use him.... --Adrian 11:34, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Breathing Exercises - Works for both humans and zombies; allows players to speak six times per hour without use of an AP point (Useful for increasing the sense of atmosphere ingame).

Kill--ThorNo this would lead to spam, just add a chat room square that scrolls or something.

Kill--A change is game mechanics would be better than this skill. --Themanwithahat :::16:03, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill --Would be nice, but in this moment I don't think UD server can afford more hits. Moreover, the "since the last turn" summary would become really huge. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep MMORPG stands for Roleplaying.. how can you roleplay without talking and emoting?.--Adrian 10:59, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill No one is stopping you from using your AP to speak. --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Charisma - Humans in the same square as the player have a chance at extra XP for every action that would normally give them XP. If the player dies, every player in the room loses a certain amount of XP. Charisma doesn't stack (i.e. no additional bonus for multiple characters with this skill. Zombies can sense the charismatic player in the room, and if necessary for game balance might even get extra XP from hitting this player. Rationale: this simulates how in real-life the combat-specialized people would try to protect a VIP or a helpless little kid from the zombies.

Kill--ThorNoone wants to lose xp because of another player that takes away from the individual experience of the game.

Kill--Humans already have plenty of simple ways to get XP. Also, losing XP without anything happening to your character isn't a good idea. --Themanwithahat 16:13, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

That's as maybe, but having their champion struck down would have a detrimental effect on the psyche of the humans that Charisma was effecting. If it's not removing XP, then it would likely degrade their accuracy or increase their Fear, were it to be implemented. Charisma should be a two edged sword, since it would give the humans a major advantage. --[User:Wilcox|Wilcox]] 15:11, 27 Oct 2005

I really, really like this idea. The only addition that should be in there is that the player with Charisma should be identified for the human players as well, but that's probably a given. Maybe their name could be italicized. SigmaCrow 22:06, 25 Oct 2005 (EST)

I like the idea too, but it can't be available through normal means or everyone would have it and its purpose would be defeated. It must be nature be a rare trait. I'd say one char in a given number gets it at birth, but then everyone would just make a zillion alts until they got one that was special. Maybe one random character in any given suburb has it at a time would work, and it rotates weekly, or something?--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 03:33, 26 Oct 2005 (BST)

The solution is simple. Make it a Zombie Hunter skill. It would make sense, since regular, run of the mill humans wouldn't be able to inspire the survivors to that great of an extent. But humans who are skilled in dispatching the undead would make the surrounding survivors more confident, and killing them would make them panic, as their protector is suddenly dead.--Wilcox 14:40, 26 Oct 2005 (EST)

Maybe it would be good to grant this skill only to high level-Zombie-Hunters who never died (someone who was dead for a while shows some scars, or has a certain glow in the eyes, or likewise). This would make the skill even more exclusive.

And only up to the tenth level other players are affected by the charismatic player. The wiser you get, the less you fall for stuff like that.--HC 10:25, 27 Oct 2005 (EST)

Kill -- Fiddling with others' XP already gets enough whining (Headshot). This would cause an even greater outcry. Yet again, gaining XP is easy enough, and this just seems destined to annoy others. --Raelin 22:32, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change-- I think charisma should definitely be a factor, for the sole reason that it would. Having an experienced leader in their midst would make survivors more confident. However, it probably wouldn't really give them more XP, but rather would make them fight better. Maybe it could increase the accuracy of all their attacks by 5%, or even 10%, or give them the opportunity to deal more damage on occasssion. And of course, the opposite could be true if they're killed. They loose accuracy or hit less often as they loose confidence.--Wilcox

Kill-- Dangerous, especially if you lose XP because of someone else's actions. I can already imagine the forums (and Kevan's mailbox) filled with hatemails. --Seagull Flock 14:10, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- It already exists. If a player proves themselves as a good leader the morale of the rest of the players will improve. If that player dies the rest of the players that looked up to him/her/it will be disheartened. But if I don't think that someone is a good leader I don't want to be penalized when that person dies. Bottom line: charisma already exists in-game, not as a mechanic but as an actual side-effect of being a high-level character.--Nathan DelMonaco

• Death - Spending 5 AP you strap c4 to your chest and pull the cord. You body is gone. You restart the game with that character.

Keep/Change Example of someone who would want the first skill.

http://zombies.desensitised.net/board/index.php?topic=1993.0 --Axe-man 03:37, 29 Oct 2005 (BST)

Superdumb -- Mega superdumb. Nathan DelMonaco

Kill--ThorUtter Crap.

--Kill-- Just start a new character for crying out loud... --Adrian 10:59, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Zombie Skill Tree

• Scent Trace - If you are standing at a building a message appears in the building description saying "The delicious stench of human meat is overwhelming/strong/weak/faint" or similar. The message depends on how many humans are in the building, and how heavy the barricades are. An extremely heavily barricaded building with many people may show up as "weak", but a building with few people and no barricades would show up as "strong".

I don't think the barricades should have any effect on this. Certainly the walls of the building would have a much greater affect then how much crap is piled in front of the door. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change/Kill -- Maybe with a high degree of irreliability/failure, but then it wouldn't be too useful. Just seems to tilt the scales a little too far in favour of zombies. --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill--Thor thats like scouting a bldg without using ap to go inside too much of a benefeit.

Keep--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Make it an extension of Scent Fear. A decent, realistic advantage for the Zombies that could also be used by smart survivors to set up ambushes.-- Wilcox 28 Oct 2005

Keep-- Doesn't make the Scent tree more interesting IMO, but it's got a point. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Contagious Bite - Bitten survivors become carriers. Every AP spent by a survivor in the presence of a carrier gives them a 10% chance of becoming infected as per normal. This includes the carrier. (Thus giving a random incubation time as well)

Kill--Thor Bite only takes 1 ap so bite can be used on say 30 ppl in one 50 ap cycle so this would just be abusive.

Kill--Too powerful and too easy to grief with (just get infected, then run into a building and waste 10 AP, infect most everyone, head to the next building, etc). --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/Change--I think you misread it--he says any time a person spends an AP in the presence of a carrier, that person who spent the AP may get infected, not everyone else. But it is too powerful. Maybe lower the percentage a bit.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 19:59, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Ah, that was maybe in part due to me not likeing the idea of a new skill overriding a previous skill. Since this branches from the current Infectious Bite, I assumed the "carrier" was already feeling the effects. I also don't have that much faith in the suggestions of random people to make sense, so I thought it looked a little different because the person didn't reread it at all. But, the griefing possibility still remains. The carrier could just enter the building and not spend any AP, yet the other survivors will get infected eventually. I don't know, I just don't think infection should be this powerful. --Themanwithahat 21:52, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--I think this is way too powerful. Not only would zombie spies use it to infect whole safehouses (anonymously?). In any case, infectious bite is strong enough as it is IMO. And it replaces another skill, which is just weird for this game --McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Keep/Change This wouldn't be too bad as long as it had a partner skill on the human side to detect the carrier maybe... Shadowstar 03:59, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- The percentage required to make this skill balanced would be too low for it to actually be useful. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Change--I like the idea of growing paranoia in a safehouse, but it's definitely too powerful. The concept is good though, worth investigating on. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

If you REALLY wanted paranoia, you'd have an advancement on this skill that makes bitten survivors carriers who can make more carriers. And it could be combined with Infectious and the proposed Degenerative. So on a bite there's a 10% chance of making the survivor a carrier, 20% of giving a degenerative infection (-2 HP per action or half-hour) maybe 50% or 40% it's just infection as it is now, and for a trade-off so not everyone would take the skill you'd have a 20% or 30% chance of only doing the damage. And of course you'd remove all the notification messages from the attacks so no one--biter or victim--would know which one had happened, they'd only know biting ocurred. Every AP spent in a square with a carrier has a 65% chance of being unaffected, 20% gets normal infection, 10% gets degenerative, 5% becomes another carrier--again, without knowing which has happened. I can see it now. It'd be movie-authentic, and the witchhunting would be just delicious. Except that all this is a moot point, because this isn't a movie, and everybody will take advantage and play it as a game rather than doing what they really would in a zombie apocalypse, which is really the problem with almost all the unusable movie-authentic ideas...</digression>--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 22:50, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Carrion Feast - Zombies can feed on dead bodies to gain a random amount of HP ranging from 1-10. Bodies would not actually be damaged or destroyed, just viciously chewed on. If zombie happens to chew on a dead body that's actually a Zombie Hunter or another zombie in disguise, the disguise stops working and the zombie/zombie hunter is revealed.

Keep/change--Thor Great idea and remove the ability of faks to be used on zombies.

Kill--I don't know if Zombies need that many healing skills. The main "healing" zombies tend to do is getting back up after you knocked them down. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep/change--Whilst I agree with Themanwithahat, I feel this is in flavour enough to be a good suggestion. I'm guessing if the game changes enough, this could actually be useful. --McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Kill -- I can't imagine any game changes that would actually make this useful. I'd much prefer to just get killed and stand up with full HP, than waste AP chewing on a corpse. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill-- Useless. See comment by Raelin. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Rattle and Some - The zombie can understand and be understood by all zombies who have Death Rattle. Such communications are not garbled, and are treated as human speach. (This may require some serious interface programing, as the same message would appear diffrently, depending on the listener.)

Keep/change--Thor Good idea and also remove zombie ability to understand human speech. that part is just retarded that they can read what is said by survivors.

Kill-- I sorta disagree with removing all speach barriers for zombies. IMO it's there to keep the flavour of the game, and shoudn't be removed entirely --McArrowni 27 oct 2005

Kill-- exactly. And not easy to implement, I'd say. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

'Kill -- Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Hollow Skull - Immune to Headshot, but needs an extra 50XP to purchase any new skill.

Kill--Thor this defeats the purpose of the skill alltogether! dont want to lose zp then dont be a zombie nuff said!

Keep--Not a bad idea, maybe tweak the extra XP cost. Perhaps even make it dependent on level. --Themanwithahat 17:42, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Really don't like the idea of completely negating another skill. --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- This was good under brain rot, but now it encourages people to play as humans to earn XP before switching to zombie.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep -- Nerfing Headshot has been discussed to death. I'd keep this in the Suggestions, but only for the record and as part of the Brain Rot tree. I don't expect Kevan to implement it anytime soon anyway. --Seagull Flock 22:28, 30 Oct 2005 (GMT)

• Deathly Torpor - Zombie can fake being a dead body for 10 AP. Alternate Skill Name(s): "Putrescent Possum", "Rigid Repose", "Stultifying Ennui", "Not Dead", "Faux Dead", "Trompe L'Dead", "Necrotic Nap" "Adulterated Slumber", "Disambulation", "Cadaverous Crouch", "Dead Sleep", "Veil of Death", "Death Mask", "Spiritless Rest", "Grave Masquerade", "Feign Death", "Death Unnotice", "Prematurely Dead", "Feignt", "Shambulate", "Pining for the Fjords", "Phunky Phantom", "What", "Horrible Skill Name".

Kill--Thor This is a huge waste of ap and no need to fake being dead a zombie is dead allready. they never juse lie around doing nothing. I never saw that in a movie or anywhere this is just stupid but a good effort on the naming, give this guy a gold star.

Keep-- But allow it for humans too. Maybe 5AP to lie down and 5AP to get up or something, as it shouldn't be as costly as death. Shadowstar 03:59, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- What reason would they have not to use it? 10 AP is better than a chunk of XP from a headshot, better than roaming around for days waiting for a revive, better than being killed in revenge for PKing, better than allowing a zombie/human the chance to get XP from you, better than dieing in a zombie seige/on the street ... --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Also: Kill whoever posted all these alternate skill names. Does "Deathly Torpor" really irk your nerves that much? --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

How about 50AP then? That would make it impractical to use on a daily basis, but give you an option besides waiting several days for your character to disappear if, for example, you're going on holiday or won't have access over the weekend. Agreed about the names though. Shadowstar 11:16, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

• Thick Skull - Headshots only take away 5XP per zombie level above the first instead of 10.

Keep--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor renders the headshot almost useless so of course no. why not just add a flying zombie skill while your at it since that is as lame as that idea.

Kill -- Without any sort of reason not to take this skill, though, it just seems like it further nerfs headshot. Headshot has been nerfed enough already. --Raelin

• Fearsome Profile - From any neighboring block, zombie appears to be 3 zombies.

Kill--Thor Your kidding right what zombie magic? fine if humans can cast fireballs and go back in time then sure why not!

Zombie Hunter Skill Tree

• Crucifixion - Purchased after headshot. If player has a crucifix it also removes 1/2 ap when zombie stands up so they only get 25 when they stand up instead of 50. Does not affect xp in any way.

Keep--[[User:Thor|Thor] Fun idea and makes a zombie hunter sound more like a zombie hunter than just an annoyance with headshot.

Keep-- Great Idea.. zombie hunters are supposed to be hated and feared...this will give em something to groan about--Adrian 10:44, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT).

Kill -- Sure, make them hated and feared, but since almost everyone is a zombie hunter, this skill is overpowered. I really wish you guys could try to look at things from both the POV of a survivor and a zombie before voting. --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill this would make being a zombie VERY hard for low level players--heamo

Kill - this needs killing so bad... anything which takes away 25 ap in one hit is way overpowered. Survivors do not need stuff like this! --Zark the Damned 12:26, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Flare Combat - You learn to handle the Ferocious recoil of flare guns, while they will never be your best weapon a little 'extra somethin' never hurts. +15% accuracy with a flare gun used as a weapon. Stacks with basic firearms training for a total of 30%.

Keep--No real need for it, but why not. --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- Humans get 30% for 15 damage, but zombies get 30% for 4 and maybe an infection...? --Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Humans already get 65% for 10 damage. --Themanwithahat 19:18, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Both Mw/H's statements. Finding flaregun ammo would be just as hard as shotgun, and would have less than half the accuracy for only 1.5x the damage. This skill would just make flares more than the useless they are now for combat.--SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel 20:07, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--As above--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--ThorThis is just ridiculous there will be other items to use in the future, flare guns are for flares not attacking.

• And STAY Down... - Only available to players of level 12+. When you kill a zombie,you have an option of expending a further 2 [AP] to cause further trauma to the brain. The zombie requires 20 AP to stand up (or 10 if it has the Ankle Grab skill) immediately after this skill is employed on them. This does not effect zombies with the Brain Rot skill.

Keep--Its all too easy for a zombie to get up again and again.----Adrian 18:47, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Keep it fun...--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--We're trying to make it more desirable to play as zombies.--Wilcox 29 Oct 2005

Keep--Because SOMETHING has to counter Ankle Grab. --Arcibi 29 Oct 2005

Keep--ThorGreat Idea to counter the Ankle grab and only way to stand a chance at defending.

Kill--10ap to stand up is painful enough. 20 is just ridiculous, it's half your actions for the day. --Zark the Damned 12:26, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill -- Yes, YES. They'll never penetrate our security, zombies should NEVER EVER EVER be able to enter a building with survivors, that'd be too much like being fair. Seriously guys, check the survivor bias at the door, and try to play a zombie for a while. There are two sides to this game, niether side is supposed to be able to defeat the other. Not every skill needs a counter skill. --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Body Burning - Available at lvl 10, this skill enables a player to use the unused gascan item burn the bodies at a location. The bodies thus are randomply moved to another location like when a new player is created. No penalty to AP for zombies. This discourages multi abuse and disrupts hordes of their organization. This is a pro/con since humans who die will also be moved.

Keep--Thor negates ankle grab and no loss of AP so zombies can attack players if they are put in a square with a player.

Kill--Why Spread them all around? You clean the town of zombies, then new ones arrive by this way.. not fair will get massive kills by different people--Adrian 10:44, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT).

• Dead Reckoning - Only available to players of Level 15 or above. Player has enough experience to recognise the most degenerated zombies, and automatically aims at the zombie with the lowest HP in any given group...

Keep/Modify--Would be good, but less level required. ----Adrian 18:47, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--ThorThis should be a military skill or science skill and a basic one at that not a zombie hunter skill.

• Death Sense - Player can sniff out zombies. A message is displayed, such as "You can smell a mass of decay 5 blocks north" or similar.

Keep/Change--I just love this..I mean people who have been killing zeds know how to track them.Maybe also better chance for injured zombies (blood or something) --Adrian 18:17, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill -- We all know humans grow a heightened olfactory sense when trying to kill zombies! --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Calm Nerves - Player gets a +10% to hit (ranged or melee attacks) against zombies for the 10 AP following drinking an alcoholic beverage of any kind. (cannot be used cumulatively, possibly give a negative if more than one drink is taken inside of 10 AP)

Kill--Right now, humans don't need these kinds of buffs. --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Raelin 07:22, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--Only useful when the shit hits the fan--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Thor Consuming alcohol is dehabiltative and should not in any way give you super powers its just alcohol!

Kill--If anything, consuming alcohol would reduce hit chances. --Zark the Damned 12:26, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Flash of Blades - A Zombie hunter with this skill can utilize a knife to devastating effect, directing an assult not towards a zombie but its protective covering. This skill allows the removal of a flak jacket from a character at a 15% chance. It would also make multiple flack jackets actually usefull. Flak Jackets for the living.

Kill--I don't know what this is even supposed to be. --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

I think he means that it destroys a flak jacket but takes off no AP. If that's what he means, he needs a rewrite of it, but I think it's not a bad idea in theory Shadowstar 04:06, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Keep--I hate getting extra FJs.--Milo 21:55, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill -- I don't think that's what it does. Actually, I have no idea what it does, hence "Kill" --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill--Thor This would be a military skill and garbage anyway if it was.

• Survivalist - Player can keep moving with no AP at the cost of one HP per move, but no other action than moving and entering/exiting buildings. Maybe let the skill be usuable by a zombie that has it.

Kill--Very open to abuse...but there is always the risk of falling asleep whislt running away... maybe call it adrenaline and make it drain something other than HP. Abuse : Walk walk walk, friend heals you, walk walk walk... ----Adrian 18:47, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill/Change--Maybe make it a 'click' power (like in other mmorpgs). Once per day you can click on Adrenaline Surge, this gives you 5 more AP at a cost of 5/10HP. This damage cannot be healed until you have regenerated back to 50AP.--Zark the Damned 12:26, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill--Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

• Right to Live - Any Zombie Hunter over level 17 can have this avalable to him. When killed, he will not rise as a zombie, however he will lose ALL XP, ALL AP but will rise again as a human with all his items. This will combat the Paradox of Having a Zombie who has killed many Zombies during his past life.--Adrian 18:30, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Change -- Instead, consider just 10 XP for every level beyond the first (no lost skills) all AP lost, and rises as a human. This serves as an answer to brain rot and as an answer for zombies to headshot --Arcos 20:36, 4 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Kill -- You should never have to deal with the inconvience of following the entire premise of the game! Being a zombie is nasty! --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Zombie Elite Skill Tree

• Tenacity- The Zombie Elite is determined to bring down a foe and devour it, no matter how much damage it takes. For every 10 HP it loses, it gains an extra 5% to hit for melee attacks. This would make combat against a zombie elite quite dangerous.

One problem maybe is that zombies don't get healed much, so they could potentially be at 30/60 HP for a while. Also, a group of zombies could spend time hurting each other in preparation for an attack. Keep in mind that in zombie attacks the zombies often don't get killed until after they are out of AP. --Themanwithahat 22:35, 27 Oct 2005 (BST)

Kill--Antisynergistic with digestion. Already fully-leveled-up zombies will not like that. McArrowni 28 Oct 2005

Kill--Thor Zombies shouldnt be able to be healed at all except for indigestion.

What on earth are you talking about? Where the hell in this skill does it say "Heal"? "Indigestion"... lol. --Raelin 22:35, 5 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Change--This skill makes some kind of sense, but it should be changed. Zombies do seem to be quite determined to bring down their prey despite their physical injuries. The issue I have is with length of use. How long would the accuracy bonus last? If it's for the duration of the HP decrease, that would be bad, but if it's for a set number of AP after the damage is dealt, which makes morse sense in a combat situation, then it would prevent the aforemented abuse. Further, I think the name should be changed to "Mindless Tenacity", since it's based more on instinctual sticktuitiveness than personal determination. Further, in the AP time limit scenario, Digestion wouldn't be an issue, since the length of the buff is not dependent on keeping their HP at that level.--Wilcox 15:58, 28 Oct 2005 (EST)