User talk:Boxy/Suggestions/Collapse Barricades II

Collapse Barricades II

Timestamp: -- boxy talk • teh rulz 09:02 15 November 2009 (BST)

Type: Barricade change

Scope: Zombie Barricade Attacks

Description: If a building is ruined and unoccupied by survivors, there is a 30% chance that any successful attack upon the barricades by a zombie already inside, once it reach VS or below, will make the whole pile collapse, leaving only the doors secured (if that building has them). This in no way weaken barricades that people are hiding behind or meatshielding, only those that are abandoned. It's main use would be in mall (or other large) building sieges, where zombies break into one corner, and attack other corners from the open entry point. Once abandoned, the barricades can be pushed over from inside easier than breaking in as normal.

Discussion (Collapse Barricades II)

This seems to just be a Piñata nerf and nothing else. The condition for the attack to function (ruined and unoccupied by survivors) makes this unlikely to see much actual use in attacks on malls. Folks that already know what's up are going to be going to the opening that's actually there, and folks following feeding groans won't be directed to corners where this attack is at all possible. --Mold 09:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, something I hadn't considered. Bodies of survivors killed in the attack, that stand up inside a pinata. Any ideas about how to remove this loophole? -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:15 15 November 2009 (BST)

The way I see it, if a building was ruined, it was unoccupied at some point, which is sufficient reason for the barricades to be faltering now (i.e. they don't have a structure to brace themselves against once they lose their own internal structure). It doesn't affect people hiding behind barricades, since zombies would still have to come through them (or else they're already inside...either way, it's the same as before), nor does it affect meatshielding, since zombies would still have to clear the survivors before they could ruin a building (and survivors have no reason to meatshield a ruined building). By the time a building is VSB, the building is no longer a good piñata anyway, since it's already enterable for survivors, so it's not a piñata nerf. I would, however, make this work for both zombies and survivors alike, just to be consistent. —Aichon— 09:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

…body dumping? If you're creating bodies in the process of creating a piñata then you're either a PKer or a death cultist, and in either case you should be able to get by with a little help from your friends. Can't help but think of the saying, "Friends help you move, real friends help you move bodies." ;) ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 11:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Besides, seeing as 1) this suggestion only takes effect at VS and lower, and b) once a piñata gets down to VS it can be entered by survivors and repaired, iii) I really don't see how this can be anything but good for zombies. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 11:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

BTW, I've been hanging around Treweeke Mall for quite a while now, and I could have used this numerous times in the last month. Often I find myself meatshielding a ruined corner that is still barricaded, and come back and have to find an open corner, despite the mall still being completely ruined -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:18 15 November 2009 (BST)

What are you getting, visits from the barricade-smashing faerie? Weird situation, there, I'm not sure what's provoking that. As for killing the loophole... heh, maybe you could make it a child skill of Brain Rot. Tongue firmly in cheek but hey, it might work. --Mold 09:21, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Mmm, I like the child skill thought... will consider it more :)
Treweeke is a delicate balance. A small/medium core of zombies seem to hold the mall, and attack out to the surrounds (but retreat to the mall), while the survivors hold the suburb (more or less) and make occasional attacks (some successful, some not) on the mall, regularly barricading corners once cleared -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:46 15 November 2009 (BST)

Seems significantly overpowered.

• Benefits: A claw-maxed zombie is +5% to break a barricade while a Convert is +18% and a level 1 corpse is +13%. Not to mention only having to attack it half as many times (assuming an EHB barricade) as you normally would.
• Hinderances: Having to be alone (no survivors) in a ruined building.

Personally, I don't see the hinderances as being significant enough to compare to all the benefits.--Pesatyel 22:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The point of this suggestion is that there are no XP benefits to this suggestion (in fact it reduces the AP a zombie can achieve from simply knocking down each level of barricades separately). It is designed to be only useful to increase the benefits from zombies actually holding large buildings after they've already been cleared -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:00 16 November 2009 (BST)

I don't get it though. Isn't a Pinata more useful? If survivors can't use a resource building until they both get through the barricades AND effect repairs, wouldn't that be better than tearing down the barricades? In fact, wouldn't that technically help survivors more than it would help zombies? I don't think LIfe Cultists are as prevalent as Death Cultists, but it still seems this whole idea benefits survivors more than zombies.--Pesatyel 02:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Why am I not shocked you don't get this...? This helps zombies, it helps survivors, it helps life cultists. It hinders death cultists and PKers. Would you like a diagram? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 03:02, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

How does it help survivors in any way? It doesn't help to open up pinatas, which was the only thing I was concerned about -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 23:16 17 November 2009 (BST)

Parity. A zombie on the inside of VSB cades holds the ruin, a survivor on the inside of VSB cades repairs. A survivor on the outside of VSB cades can enter and repair, a zombie on the inside cannot. This shouldn't be just 'inside' only, this suggestion should make VSB cades enter-able for zombies while the building is ruined. Otherwise it helps survivors by ignoring the great deficit zombies face in terms of general cases, if it was pro-zombie the suggestion wouldn't be about cades, it'd simply increase hit percentages in large buildings where at least one corner was already ruined specifically. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 23:28, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm not understanding you. With your talk about the "deficit," the examples you give seem to indicate that it's maintaining the status quo for survivors, rather than helping them, as you say. That's why I think I'm misunderstanding you. I can see how this helps zombies on the inside, and how it doesn't help zombies on the outside, but I don't see how this improves the situation for survivors past where it is currently. —Aichon— 00:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

How does this help zombies? I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I just don't understand. Would zombies NOT be better off MAINTAINING the barricade of a ruined resource building? What benefit do they gain for tearing down the barricades if the ONLY way into said building is by tearing them down (no free running)?--Pesatyel 07:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Note that this suggestion doesn't take effect until the barricades are at VSB. At that point, the building is no longer a useful piñata anyway, since survivors can enter, so it doesn't nerf piñatas at all. If anything, survivors should prefer to keep the barricades intact at that point, since they'll still be in place when they repair the building. It could save them ~12AP worth of barricading. Letting the zombies break the barricades down once the barricades are no longer of use doesn't do the survivors any good at all, while it does make things easier for the zombies if they happen to lose the location later. I don't see how it helps life cultists or survivors at all, and I think it benefits death cultists and PKers indirectly. —Aichon— 05:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually it starts the moment there are no more survivors in the buildinng.--Pesatyel

I disagree. Go back and read the suggestion again. The moment there are no survivors in the building, nothing changes from how it is now, unless the barricades are already at VSB or lower. If the barricades are higher than VSB (i.e. they make for a good piñata), then this suggestion changes nothing and the barricades collapse at the usual rate. All that this suggestion does is allow zombies to break down VSB or lower barricades more rapidly. If a barricade is at VSB, it's already useless as a piñata, and thus useless to zombies, but it still might be useful to a survivor, since they could reclaim the building and have some free barricades on it already. —Aichon— 15:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Your right. I misread it (I maintain it was worded poorly lol).--Pesatyel 04:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I honestly don't see the benefit of this for zombies. Is not the objective of ruin to keep survivors from using resource buildings? And as the only way into a ruined and barricaded resource building is THROUGH the barricades (ie. no free running), would it not make more sense for zombies to maintain the barricade so as to keep survivors from resuppling? Please explain how breaking down the barricade of an empty AND unaccessible barricaded building is useful to zombies.--Pesatyel 07:33, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

But the building isn't inaccessible. If the barricades are VSB or lower, survivors can already enter it again by just walking in the front door, so they're useless to zombies and should be taken down. If the barricades are above VSB, this suggestion doesn't pertain to them, as was specified already in the description. —Aichon— 15:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It is most useful in large buildings, where zombies are holding a ruin. Survivors clear you out of a corner and barricade up, but leave it unattended. You stand up, find another corner that is open and simply walk back inside the corner you just got dumped from. You can then ruin it again, and once it's down to VSB or below, collapse the barricades. And yes, I can see it will not help life cultist zombies to take back pinatas. I think it's pretty well right to go, as is -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 23:12 17 November 2009 (BST)

I misread the suggestion so that changes quite a bit. Your example doesn't work for me since you have to already be inside to use it. It is, basically, contingent on NOT getting dumped.--Pesatyel 04:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Even if the building is ruined, it's till not inaccessible, as you can still Free Running into it from a nearby building, much like you can enter a Ruined building and Free Running to another from that point; To prevent Survivor occupation, you'd have to maintain ruination in every building adjecent, as well. Honestly, I like this idea. I'd vote keep if it came to a vote. -KainYusanagi 22:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Not quite right. If a building is ruined, you cannot Free Run into it, regardless of the barricade levels. Attempting to do so will get you dumped outside on the street, occasionally suffering injury. The ONLY way for a survivor to enter a ruined building is from the street (or somewhere else inside the building, in the case of Malls, Stadiums, etc.). You can Free Run from ruined buildings just fine, but you can't Free Run to ruined buildings at all. —Aichon— 23:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

---