Suggestion talk:20080123 New Game Statistics

Ruins

Swiers put it very well here: "I don't think this solves the problem that survivors don't really need to bother fixing ruins in the first place, and that a normally ransacked building is superior for zombies strategic purposes. Ruins make the best entry points in the game, easy to find and almost certain to be open; ransacked buildings are not advertised entries, but have pretty much all the same benefits for zombies."

Grant, from the same link: "There are two big problems with ruin - and they're pretty well known, I though. One, that it costs a lot of zombie AP to produce, while costing only a single AP for a human to fix. Two, that it's actually beneficial for survivors in most cases by providing highly visible entry points."

Powered and Ruined buildings are not fair things to compare at the moment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Druuuuu (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

I think they are valid for stat purposes. 1000 ruins vs 3000 powered buildings might actually mean zombies are doing quite well, but we currently have no idea what the numbers are, so no way of knowing what various comparative stat values might mean.  Swiers 03:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem about having statistics on every possible building state, powered, normal, ransacked, ruined and every possible level of barricading is that you have dozens of lines of information. The reason I favor Powered and Ruined are that you can see that status on the map and the total # of buildings have been figured out and listed somewhere. Ransacked non-resource sites are not a meaningful statistic to me and there is no way for survivors to figure out which random building that no one visits has been ransacked without wandering around aimlessly which is something survivors don't have the luxury of doing. Graphically showing the status of every building on the map is an entirely different suggestion. Are you going to thicken the border by 1 pixel for each level of barricade, shade it 1 step more grey for ransacked and 3 steps for ruined? At that point zombie bots could wander the map constantly updating some metagaming website. Game data is just data and its up for people to make their own interpretations. If survivor groups are trying to power every building, no matter how insignificant they can see their progress. If zombie groups are trying to ruin every building then they can see their progress. Its just a fun thing people can choose to do once they have maxed out their character. If you don't want to know the stats, don't look. --Cpt Masterson 11:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The buildings that are ruined are usually key points like NT, PD, FD and Hospitals. Survivors can't even begin to resecure those points until all the zombies are removed and zombies can freely re-enter until then. If survivors can barricade a building they can kill and dump zombies outside over time or zombies will wander off and not come back. Survivors pretty much know that anything near a resource point is an entry point, they don't need ruined buildings to find entry points. Powered buildings draw both survivors and zombies since they know they will be able to get heals and find resources more easily and zombies know that there are survivors present. Powered and ruined buildings both represent active effort put into making the building that way. I look at it as if all the NT and Hospitals are ruined and occupied the survivors can't stay in that suburb any longer. Saying it takes a lot of zombie AP to ruin a building and only a single AP for a human to fix is an utterly simplistic way of viewing the situation without any thought for the larger ramifications. --Cpt Masterson 04:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

NO U. Seriously, though - it's a nice thought, but in my experience it's simply not how things work. Ruin is not limited only to resource buildings - you see it in all types of buildings. If you ruin a building, zombies lose AP, and humans can continue free-running easily into other buildings as if nothing had happened. As soon as the zombies leave, they'll pop back in, repair it, and barricade it up to VSB++ for about 14 AP. If you don't ruin a building, survivors simply barricade the building to VSB++ (or higher), zombies and all. Now zombies can't even leave and come back - if they ever want back in, they'll need to spend the 40+ AP to tear down the barricades. Even if they do that, survivors can continually just pop in, barricade a little, and pop back out to continue their daily routine. And none of this even mentions that zombies have absolutely nothing they can do inside a building once the survivors are gone! Once they get 50 AP, all but the most spiteful level-41 and level-42 zombies will move on to find a new target. Ruining a building represents a huge sacrifice on the part of a zombie. It should be worth something. - Grant (talk) ON STRIKE 06:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess it comes down to what are the kinds of goals zombies have. Is it to putter around and gain xp until they can get revived? Is it to dominate suburbs or just eat up as much survivor time possible trying to keep the status quo? Zombies can base their operations out of specific locations just like survivors and survivors just can't compete with multiple zombies in their efficiency of standing up again. A zombie standing up is at least equivalent of VSB anti-barricades. This discussion came about in the ruin should cost more AP to fix and the correlating survivor function to ruin is headshot. It takes a lot of AP to knock down a zombie, it should take at least as many for the the zombie to stand up for zombie killing to be "efficient" --Cpt Masterson 11:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It takes a lot of AP to knock down a zombie, No, no it does not, it takes 10-13 at most, if it's taking you more you're extremely unlucky or going about it wrong. A zombie standing up is at least equivalent of VSB anti-barricades. No, no it is not, it's equivalent to a survivor standing in a building, nothing more. --Karek^maps?! 20:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what game you are playing but in UD it takes 50 AP on average to axe a zombie to death, that's 2.5 AP per hit x 20 hits. That's the most AP efficient way to kill a zombie. It takes even more AP, in the ballpark of 200, to get 6 shotguns with 12 cartridges so you can kill at zombie with an average of 12 shots. The absolute least is 8 AP if you ignore the hundreds of AP spent in prep and that only happens 3% of the time. Is there some super weapon I don't know about that lets you kill zombies at 4x the normal speed? --Cpt Masterson 20:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC) (you can kill a noob zombie with 5 AP, 11% of the time but really, how many of those are there)

You're a moron if you actually think it takes 200 AP to kill a zombie with shotguns, you don't count per combat in combat AP, and even then it's no where near 200 AP. And no, the absolute minimum is 6 AP, the average minimum is 8 AP.--Karek^maps?! 20:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

OR if you are after a quick fix, with a 100% chance to clear a building (Barring brain rot.) Combat revive and then throw. 11Ap. But combat reviving is ALMOST never a good idea.--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess math isn't Karek's strong subject. Assuming you already have 6 shotguns it takes 156 AP to find 12 shells and 12 AP to load those shells and 12 AP to fire those shells. That's 180 AP if you can add. Stop your childish name calling and let the adults have a grown-up discussion. I said the absolute minimum was 5, the highest minimum (to kill your standard lvl 10 zombie) is 8. The average is 12. Anytime someone suggests it take less than 180 AP to kill a zombie, every zombie player screams bloody murder and vote kill en masse even if it would only bring it down to 160. --Cpt Masterson 21:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop living in wonderland, you can spend 50 AP and kill 3 zombies the next day with ease. --Karek^maps?! 21:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget you can find loaded shotguns. And are you saying that finding 12 shotgun shells in a powered gun store with bargain hunting takes 156 AP's? Whats that based on? And surely you'd find a lot of other AMmo along the way? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Or 43Ap to kill a zombie with a fire axe. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Figure zombies pretty much have 60 HP and a flak jacket unless they are newly created zerglings. I was just going of the figures on the wiki and assuming that half of ammo is for shotguns and half for pistols. Shooting at random into a horde of zombies outside of a powered mall doesn't do anything except run up xp. It doesn't do anything for the survivors or hurt zombies in the slightest. I've never killed 3 full health zombies in 50 AP, if someone did it must be some kind of record. If someone contrived to have a bunch of 1-4 hp zombies stand in a big group then I suppose a survivor could kill 40 with a good streak of luck but in actuality, 3 kills in a day is a very good day. --Cpt Masterson 22:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Right. Didnt know youre assumptions. Fully maxed skills and loaded pistols. Lets see.0.65 x 4 x 50. Thats 130 damage. Or two and a bit zombies. Working in a team thats 5 every two days, two days to reload and rearm, so 5 in 4 days. OR about one a day. "shooting at random into a horde of zombies outside of a powered mall doesn't do anything except run up xp. It doesn't do anything for the survivors." Like the way you answered your own question. It helps newbs level up, whilst sapping ap's from your opponents. at Higher levels its much more pointless.

Look at the page search odds if you search in a gun store with bargain hunting and power, the cahnce of finding anything is 1:3 ish. 160 odd searches would find you 60 items. What damage do you believe would be capable with that?--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Funt's Vote

So surely Funt knows how many suburbs don't see zombies in years at a time? Oh, what about the suburbs that see zombies frequently, obviously those don't go months at a time without seeing a single zombie? You're whole argument just shows you're bias, most suburbs and most buildings in malton are powered year round, the few exceptions is when one of three zombie hordes comes through a suburb. Pull your head out of your ass and actually tour malton for once.--Karek^maps?! 17:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, name 1 suburb in the game with more than 50% powered buildings and I'll check it out. Nothing you've said has any backing in the reality that I know but I'll actually make an effort to verify something before writing you off as a kook. --Cpt Masterson 20:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Vinetown last week. We got a bit cocky. Pennville? Thats prety safe at the moment. Any of the suburbs over christmas that had "Its lit up like a christmas tree" in their external military reports. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

To start: Almost every building in the SW is powered. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 21:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

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Easiness of powering?

You whine about spending all AP on mauling cades, but spending whole day to find a gen and fuel is easy? --~~~~ [talk] 18:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Strange, I've never spent all day finding fuel, you can find it, store it, haul it. Searching is stored AP, searching helps you beat averages and play towards future needs with past expenditure. Searching helps you so stop bitching about it. Oh, and one survivor can power multiple buildings easy, they often do, please, show me an equivalent for zombies.--Karek^maps?! 18:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Searching for ammo is stored AP, although at a horribly inefficient conversion rate. Are you saying a zombie can't ruin multiple buildings? BTW, ruin just got a buff, happy now? --Cpt Masterson 19:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That is most certainly not a buff to ruin. And no, barricades make damn certain zombies can't ruin multiple buildings and no where near at a 1:1 ratio, even with 50 AP used.--Karek^maps?! 20:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd bet $100 USD that you couldn't singlehandedly turn 10 ruined buildings into powered ones in 7 days. Easiest money I'd ever make.--Cpt Masterson 21:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)