Suggestion talk:20071204 Screeching Wail

Discussion Moved From Talk:Suggestions

Screeching Wail

Timestamp:	The Grimch U! E! WAT! 09:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Zombies
Description:	Subskill of feeding groan. A Zombie, after making a successful attack on a set of barricades (A collapse) can let loose a wail for 1ap. This wail can be heard outside for 6 blocks in any direction. Wails exist for a period of 5 minutes, after which they are deleted from the database. The purpose of this skill is to attract other active zombies to yourself and coordinate with them in game to demolish some barricades and obtain food. Such a skill would also result in a deemphasis on metagaming for zombies to be effective at all as well as their only means for coordination. The message deletion after five minutes ensures only actives/soon to be actives can hear it, and completely nukes its spam/annoyance power.

Discussion (Screeching Wail)

I suggest that the loudness of the wail would depend on how much the building is still barricaded, similar to how groan works with different amounts of survivors. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 09:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Zombie dolphins? :D I like that! -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 10:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd take it a step further and say that any collapse from a +0 Level automatically causes noise, just from the effort of tearing them down, which can be heard 6 blocks away. Don't give precise directions, but rather you hear a different level of sound depending on how far away you are. I.E. If you are 1 block away: "You hear very loud crashing sounds.", progressing to 6 blocks away: "You hear very distant crashing sounds." Then you'd have to "feel" your way to the location. Shouldn't be too hard. It'll be the building with that stack of Zombies outside. Ok, this goes away from your Wail conceit, but we already have Feeding Groan.--Sara M 13:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

If you are following Big Bash that would mean huge amount of spam. Besides, there is no free lunch. -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 15:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

So, uh...what does HAVING EARS have to do with a free lunch? In any respectable game environment, I would expect my senses to be simulated, and no, one shouldn’t have to buy Skills such as Hearing Things or Eyes That Work in order to use them. Rather than add another Moaning Skill, why not just fill in the common sense gaps. I read this suggestion as basically a desire to use Feeding Groan, but without the annoying necessity of having Survivors in front of you in order to do it. Shouldn't even be necessary. Zombies tearing up buildings would create quite enough racket without it. Toggle it off if you don't want to hear it. Easily explainable as a character stuffing their ears/wearing earmuffs, whatever. If you're following the Bash (and I am), I would expect to hear quite a lot of noise/confusion/etc. All part of being in a hot spot.--Sara M 16:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, since you would only hear things that happened in the last five minutes, this wouldn't generate as much spam as you think. Except possibly for large groups attacking at the same exact time (like X:00). --Uncle Bill 03:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Hearing things is not a free lunch. For the majority of the populice. BoboTalkClown 21:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd vote keep--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 13:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yup. Screech though? I'd go for bellowing roar myself.... That's just a tiny flavour issue though.--Seventythree^Talk 13:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, a screech is like a banshee, and thus i think a roar seems much more fitting. Like a lion, people are more willing to vote for something which makes them sound good, rather than somethign which makes them seem like a mythical creature. It's all psychological. Acoustic Pie 15:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a very powerful skill. I believe I suggested something similar a long time ago, but it was a lot less powerful, only carrying to one block away and based on the sound of barricades collapsing rather than the zombie making their own noise. Your idea would make any horde or random group of zombies A LOT more powerful. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but survivors would need a major boon to compensate. --Jon Pyre 16:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Meh. Chose from any of the multitude of suggestions in PR that help survivors!--Seventythree^Talk 16:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Why the hell NOT give zombies a version of a flare gun? there is something in this, something close to be a workable suggestion, though not quite yet... but why limit it to 5 minutes? and everyone complains about barricades being too powerful, but rejects barricade nerfs. but barricades are NOT so overpowered vs. active and more coordinated hordes. something like this would help ferals... you just dont have enough ap to tear down barricades AND tell people about it... and the spam i get from groans following the Big Bash is big enough as it is. but seriously, why CAN'T zombies call for help BEFORE the feeding groan comes into play? --WanYao 16:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

How about linking the time it lasts to the natural AP gain ticks? it might be seconds it might get a lot longer, it might also be easier to program! I would also consider limiting it to major drops in cade status ie Heavy to strong and strong to light and reducing the range a bit but otherwise I like it ;) --Honestmistake 16:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Popeye Strength Keep - I like pretty much all incarnations of this as it's been suggested, though the stronger the better- without directional purposes it is pretty useless. Keeping it as a zombie action sounds good to me too. --Karloth Vois ^RR 02:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I wonder, how this would work if instead of on collapse it was on creak. Then creaks would actually mean something and it wouldn't be dependant on the horrible 4:1 ratio.--Karek^maps?! 06:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Wail of Frustration! :D --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 09:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I like this alot. with the rigth adjustments, i think it would pass into peer reviewed. I have a question - how would it appear as flavor text? i'd say this is a pretty important aspect that's been left out of the suggestion. um, and as honestmistake, specify wich barricade levels. I think a 5 block radius, and directions. i.e. "you hear a screaching wail 5 blocks south and 5 blocks east (4 minutes ago)" after moving would you hear the same wail? You heard a screaching wail 4 blocks south and 4 blocks east (1 seconds ago) please clarify --Jack13 17:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not include no brainers in my suggestions. However, since you need them spelled out: Nothing else has persistent messages, so why should you even think this would? The barricade level is not specified because it is ANY barricade level. The collapse requirement is so that people actually put some effort into a building first. A collapse is just a successful attack on a barricade. The exact flavour text is not included because it is, to be blunt, inconsequential. There will be some, i just dont feel the need to define it. If you love an idea, but are going to vote against something just because you dont like the flavour text or lack thereof then that is your problem, not mine. All the important variables have been specified. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 06:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Is that to everyone or just Jack? The creak thing would have the same effect as the collapse with a few exceptions such as it's possibly less likely(not every miss is a creak) and it doesn't have the benefit of being like infection/tangling grasp, a bonus to successful attacks, on creak would make it only work on a percentage of failures.--Karek^maps?! 17:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

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Discussion on Suggestion Voting

Pounding Hands isn't a dupe of this, most significantly because you made sure to make it as weak as possible with the requirement for it to be knocked down to lightly +2, but the 1 square radius also helps to make sure that that skill suggestion is as weak as it possibly can be and effectively useless for anything but wasting zombie experience.--Karek^maps?! 18:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, Pounding Hands is automatic, whereas this would require the zombie to use an AP. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 19:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Jon Pyre's Vote

Overpowered This would let zombies communicate much more effectively than survivors! This is like radio that only provides useful information, doesn't require power or a transmitter, and informs everyone in half the suburb. Still, it's not a bad idea. It might be balanced if it carried over a much shorter distance. Perhaps one square area, that would give you every zombie outdoors in 9 city blocks! Not bad at all. Much more balanced than 144! Of course then it would be an outright Dupe of Pounding Hands (Cade Breaks Heard) --Jon Pyre 15:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

If letting feral zombies do more than beat on the cades of your impregnable fortresses in utter futility before throwing up their hands and quitting the game in utter frustration is overpowered, then overpower me up. Of course this will lead to more breakins by zombies. Of course this will lead to more human fatalities, of course this will make the game more dangerous. These will be uncoordinated and random though, unlike a horde which obliterates entire suburbs in a nice neat line, which negates much of the OMG! OVERPOWERED! argument. Is it really a bad thing for the city to be a little more dangerous? The purpose of the skill is to snag active zombies. Given the very small duration for a wail, even though it does reach a large number of blocks, it only affects actives within those blocks at the time, thus negating your complaint about the overpoweredness of the area. Most of the time you would probably get no one, or maybe one or two others. This isnt so much a "buff" as it is a change the game needs to survive, because the only things of any entertainment value are the hordes, and they cant be everywhere. Seriously though, i think you are just sore because i killvote almost everything you do as poorly thought out. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 16:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• Re Actually you usually vote spam. I gave you the courtesy of giving you a kill vote rather than the Dupe vote you surely would have given me if our situations were reversed, mainly because I don't view Spam as a strong kill or Dupes as something to be thrown around whenever there's any aspect in common, which this certainly has on some level with Pounding Hands (Cade Breaks Heard). I'm sure if I voted Dupe I would get at least two more supporters and then I could delete this suggestion and laugh my head off like a jerk as petty revenge for your Dupe on Wave Hello, but I'm not going to since I think that would be unfair. I hope you'll treat me similarly in the future. I'm not biased against your suggestion, I hold Midianian's view that it simply covers too freaking huge an area. A lot of zombies will be active across 169 blocks over the course of 15 minutes, too many to fairly pile on any single building. --Jon Pyre 17:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I said 5 minutes, not 15. Thats 1-2 zombies usually. But thats far too many according to you. ZOMG! OVERPOWERED! oh wait, it isnt, but ill say it is just for the hell of it. Viable differences: Range, Time limitation on this. Similiar concept (Summoning assistance), vastly different implimentation. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 18:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I still think 169 blocks is overpowered. How many zombies are active in 1.5 suburbs at any time? Probably quite a few. You make the mistake in your response to Midianian in assuming that zombies are spread out evenly across Malton. They're not, some areas have a much higher concentration while others are deserted. You can't assume each suburb will have 22 active zombies each hour. Maybe if the region was 2 spaces I'd vote keep. That's still 25 blocks, and even that might be overpowered. And I'm not denying there are viable differences. I'm just pointing out that it's nice to actually pay attention to the existence of viable differences even on suggestions you don't support rather than using Dupe to end the vote quickly. --Jon Pyre 18:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Before I vote

I don't really want to vote kill, but I agree the range is generally to long. I thin you under-estimate the number of zombies it will draw. Your estimate may be good for ONE wail, but likely each new zombie who showed up would also wail, giving you a "chain wail" that efectively lasts a rather long time.
As a partial solution / compromise, how about basing the wails range on barricade strength? Loose = 5 blocks, Light = 4 blocks, QSB = 3 blocks, VSB = 2 blocks, heavy or higher = 1 blocks (only heard in same and adjacent blocks). I'd also extend the duration to 30 minutes; buildings that have few occupants very rarely recover barricades that quickly, and it STILL would result in minimal spam, especially as the range would be shorter (or the target very much worth traveling to). In fact, I think this reducs the chance for spam abuse; otherwise you might get Mrh Cows attacking EHB buildings and using it after one successful attack, just to create AP wasting distractions for zombies who are 4-6 blocks away.  Swiers 03:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

If the distance would depepnd on the level of barricades, I'd rather have them reversed. Meaning that if it's Heavily, the wail carries for five blocks, for VSB four and so on. This because if you have the barricades at loosely, you don't need any additional help. You'll get in almost certainly and then you can groan. Besides, you're giving too much credit to Mrh Cows. Some Life Cultists could possibly do that, but not your average Mrh Cow. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 06:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

30 minutes gets rid of the skills usefulness and makes it screen spam(like groans usually are), if it's 30 minutes the building is probably barricaded back up to max or everyone is 20 minutes dead. Well that and your change weakens the skill when it is the most needed and strengthens it when it is the least, if anything it should be reversed in order.--Karek^maps?! 10:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

MoTA often picks small targets that stay open (or at lightly or under) for hours after the attack, with live food inside. The bulk of attacks in the game, I suspect, are on such small targets. I know I often do well when following 30-90 minute old groans as a feral.  Swiers 03:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm normally opening the doors so I wouldn't know, but I can assure you that I'm rarely outside buildings that don't get barricaded back up within 30-90 minutes, even when there are no survivors in the building itself.--Karek^maps?! 08:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd also extend the duration to 30 minutes; buildings that have few occupants very rarely recover barricades that quickly Have you ever been to a siege swiers ? I have been in sieges where buildings were caded 3 seconds after they were opened. 5 minutes is more than enough to coordinate an attack against a barricade to eat some snacks inside. As for the range, 3 blocks should be the minimal for such range change That would mean 49 blocks, half a burb. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{[cloned] [mod]} 11:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

he, CNR the few occupants part. But the timeframe still holds true, more than that is not actual coordination, and people will just ignore it as spam. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{[cloned] [mod]} 11:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

See above. "Seiges" are a much-talked about minority; the bulk of zombie attacks are on "unimportant" buildings with no active defenses- or even any timely response to an attack.  Swiers 03:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)