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| {{Suggestion Navigation}}[[Category:Suggestions]] | | <noinclude>{{Developing Suggestions Intro}}</noinclude> |
| ==Developing Suggestions==
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| ''This section is for presenting and reviewing suggestions which '''have not yet been submitted''' and are still being worked on.''
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| ''Nothing on this page will be archived.''
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| ===Further Discussion=== | | ===Ignore based on Radio Broadcast=== |
| *Discussion concerning this page takes place [[Talk:Developing Suggestions|here]].
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| *Discussion concerning the suggestions system in general, including policies about it, takes place [[:Category_talk:Suggestions#Suggestion_Discussion|here]].
| | |'''Timestamp:''' [[User:Khwud|Khwud]] ([[User talk:Khwud|talk]]) 17:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC) |
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| | |'''Type:''' UI enhancement |
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| | |'''Scope:''' Interface |
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| | |'''Description:''' Allow 'ignore' from radio broadcasts; users are hiding behind their anonymity to allow them to broadcast things that would broadly trigger them to be ignored, if their user ID was visible. Adding their name, or an auto-generated call-sign (it is for a radio, after all) or something so that they could be blocked based on their broadcasts would help user experience. In addition, and broadcasts that get more than a threshold number could get tagged for review, and the user potentially having their (in-game) ham-license revoked. |
| | |} |
| | ====Discussion (Ignore based on Radio Broadcast)==== |
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| | ===Shrink the map=== |
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| | |'''Timestamp:''' --[[User:Uroguy|Uroguy]]<sup>[[Zookeepers|TMZ]]</sup> 16:28, 14 February 2023 (UTC) |
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| | |'''Type:''' Map change |
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| | |'''Scope:''' Everyone |
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| | |'''Description:''' There are just over 3000 active characters in the game currently likely counting a significant percentage of alts and zergs. Shrinking the map by eliminating the outer first two rings of suburbs would increase the amount of interactions between the remaining characters. This shrink could be increased or decreased depending on future changes to the playerbase. |
| | |} |
| | ====Discussion (Shrink the map)==== |
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| ==Please Read Before Posting== | | ===Action Points=== |
| *'''Be sure to check <big>[[Frequently Suggested#The List|The Frequently Suggested List]]</big> and the [[Suggestions Dos and Do Nots]] before you post your idea.''' You can read about many ideas that have been suggested already, which users should be aware of before posting what could be a '''dupe''': a duplicate of an existing suggestion. '''These include [[Suggestions/RejectedNovember2005#SMG.2FMachine_Pistol|Machine Guns]] and [[Suggestions/19th-Nov-2005#Sniper_Rifle|Sniper Rifles]].'''
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| *Users should be aware that page is discussion oriented. Other users are free to express their own point of view and are not required to be neutral.
| | |'''Timestamp:''' [[User:Wolldog1]] 10:07, 26 July 26, 2022 |
| *If you decide not to take your suggestion to voting, please remove it from this page to avoid clutter.
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| *It is recommended that users spend some time familiarizing themselves with this page before posting their own suggestions.
| | |'''Type:''' Action Points Increase Regeneration Rate |
| *''After new game updates, users are requested to allow time for the game and community to adjust to these changes '''before''' suggesting alterations.''
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| | | |'''Scope:''' Everyone |
| ==How To Make a Suggestion==
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| ===Adding a New Suggestion===
| | |'''Description:''' Due to the passage of time with mobile games and other real time action games without restriction, I think that we should address the action points system of the game. This game can only realistically be played for 5 minutes a day. So it's not really a seller for new blood. If we want to see this game survive it needs to evolve into something more exciting than 5 minutes. My suggestion is double the regeneration rate to improve activity. I love this game. I want to play it more. And the die hard fans I'm sure feel the same. More will go on in a day, sure. But that's for both sides. We're ready for it. Let's get this game moving again. We need this. |
| *Copy the code in the box below.
| | |} |
| *<span class="stealthexternallink">[http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Developing_Suggestions&action=edit§ion=7 Click here to begin editing.]</span> This is the same as clicking the [edit] link to the right of the [[Developing Suggestions#Suggestions|Suggestions]] header.
| | ====Discussion (Action Points)==== |
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| *Paste the copied text '''above''' the other suggestions, right under the heading.
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| *Substitute the text in <font color="red">RED CAPITALS</font> with the details of your suggestion.
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| <nowiki>{{subst:DevelopingSuggestion
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| |time=~~~~ | |
| |name=</nowiki><font color="red">SUGGESTION NAME</font><nowiki> | |
| |type=</nowiki><font color="red">TYPE HERE</font><nowiki>
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| |scope=</nowiki><font color="red">SCOPE HERE</font><nowiki>
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| |description=</nowiki><font color="red">DESCRIPTION HERE</font><nowiki>
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| }}</nowiki>
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| *'''Name''' - Give the suggestion a short but descriptive name.
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| *'''Type''' is the nature of the suggestion, such as a ''new class'', ''skill change'', ''balance change'', etc. Basically: '''What is it?''' and '''Is it new, or a change?'''
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| *'''Scope''' is who or what the suggestion affects. Typically ''survivors'' or ''zombies'' (or both), but occasionally ''Malton'', the game ''interface'' or something else.
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| *'''Description''' should be a full explanation of your suggestion. Include information like flavor text, search odds, hit percentages, etc, as appropriate. Unless you are as yet unsure of the exact details behind the suggestion, try not to leave out anything important. Check your spelling and grammar.
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| ===Cycling Suggestions===
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| *Suggestions with no new discussion in the past two days should be given a warning notice. This can be done by adding {{CodeInline|1='''<nowiki>{{SDW|</nowiki><font color="darkred">date</font><nowiki>}}</nowiki>'''}} at the top of the discussion section, where <font color="darkred">date</font> is the day the suggestion will be removed.
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| *Suggestions with no new discussion in the past week may be removed.
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| *If you are adding a comment to a suggestion that has the warning template please remove the {{CodeInline|1='''<nowiki>{{SDW|</nowiki><font color="darkred">date</font><nowiki>}}</nowiki>'''}} at the top of the discussion section to show that there is still ongoing discussion.
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| This page is prone to breaking when the page gets too long, so sometimes suggestions still under discussion will be moved to the [[Developing Suggestions/Overflow1|Overflow page]], so the discussion can continue.
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| __TOC__
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| <span style="font-size:1.75em; color:red">'''Please add new suggestions to the top of the list'''</span>
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| ===One Click Ruin=== | | ===Drone=== |
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| |'''Timestamp:''' {{User:TripleU/Sig}} 18:30, 5 June 2010 (BST) | | |'''Timestamp:''' [[User:Rosslessness|<span style="color: MidnightBlue ">R</span><span style="color: Navy">o</span><span style="color: DarkBlue">s</span><span style="color: MediumBlue">s</span><span style="color: RoyalBlue"></span>]][[User_Talk:Rosslessness|<span style="color: RoyalBlue">l</span><span style="color: CornflowerBlue">e</span><span style="color: SkyBlue">s</span><span style="color: LightskyBlue">s</span>]][[User_Talk:Rosslessness/Quiz|<span style="color: LightBlue">n</span><span style="color: PowderBlue">e</span>]][[Monroeville Many|<span style="color: PaleTurquoise">s</span>]][[The Great Suburb Group Massacre|<span style="color: PaleTurquoise">s</span>]]<sup>[[Location Page Building Toolkit|<span style="color: DarkRed">Want a Location Image?]] </span> </sup> 19:10, 23 July 2022 (UTC) |
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| |'''Type:''' Mechanics | | |'''Type:''' Survivor Item |
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| |'''Scope:''' Zombies | | |'''Scope:''' Survivors |
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| |'''Description:''' Rather than ransacking a building five times and then ruining it, a zombie can simply click ruin, for 6AP. This would use only one IP hit, putting less strain on the server, and give zombies a slight boost, because they could go into negative AP. | | |'''Description:''' Portable drone, found in mall tech stores, which are pointless as we all know. Encumbrance is 10%. When activated for 15ap they provide an image of a 10x10 grid centred on the survivor, showing the current outside status of all blocks including zombies, survivors and dead bodies. Like DNA scanners, Drones are multi use. |
| |} | | |} |
| ====Discussion (One Click Ruin)==== | | ====Discussion (Drone)==== |
| | | Would there be a message displayed to the players to the effect of "there's a drone buzzing overhead", similar to a flare? --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 02:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC) |
| As long as there are 1-Click-Repairs in the game, I don't see the point why 1-Click-Ruinings shouldn't be possible either. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 18:52, 5 June 2010 (BST)
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| :Make it optional. My feral has been known to just make one ransack and move on, just for the xp. "Ransack" for 1 AP and "Ruin" for 6 AP should both be buttons. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 19:01, 5 June 2010 (BST)
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| Does this include those that don't have Ruin? That is can I Ransack with 1 click for 5 AP?--[[User:Pesatyel|Pesatyel]] 19:49, 5 June 2010 (BST)
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| :I don't quite follow you. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 20:11, 5 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::Me neither. The Ransack skill allows _both_ ransacking and ruining, and there'sno way to learn only one of them two. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 20:21, 5 June 2010 (BST)
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| Make it a two step process. First 1 click to ransack (1AP), then 1 click to ruin (5AP). - [[User:Whitehouse]] 21:23, 5 June 2010 (BST)
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| ===Make zombies stronger than survivors, but not invincible=== | | ===Backpack=== |
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| |'''Timestamp:''' {{User:Hashk/sig}} 22:07, 31 May 2010 (BST) | | |'''Timestamp:''' [[User:Wild Crazy|Wild Crazy]] ([[User talk:Wild Crazy|talk]]) 20:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC) |
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| |'''Type:''' Balance chance | | |'''Type:''' New item |
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| |'''Scope:''' Survivors and zombies | | |'''Scope:''' Survivors |
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| |'''Description:''' The whole suggestion is this ('''updated'''): | | |'''Description:''' This will be a new item found in schools with a 2% find rate and sports stores with a 4% find rate. The low numbers are because, like a flak jacket, once you find it you have it forever. It increases you encumbrance by 30%. However, you can't use an item that is in your backpack until you remove it from the backpack. It costs one AP to add an item to your backpack and one AP to remove an item. An item affects your regular encumbrance until added to the backpack. Items such as GPS, radios, cell phones, and flak jacket do not work when in your backpack. Items in your backpack will not be shown in your inventory, but the backpack itself will be shown in your inventory. There will be a drop box next to the word backpack that shows all the items inside. When you click on an item in that drop box, it removes it from your backpack (1 AP). |
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| ''I propose increasing accuracy of zombie attacks, to 75% for claws and 45% for bite, and removing barricade [[interference]] altogether.''
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| The rest of this text is a long boring explanation for why yours truly believes this change would be advantageous for everyone.
| | Q: Wouldn't this buff survivors, since they can carry more bullets and kill more zombies? |
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| ====Background====
| | A: Since it costs an AP to add and remove an item, it wastes a lot of AP to put bullet clips in your backpack if you are planning on using them right away. |
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| Disregarding for a minute the game theme, and role-playing aspects and such, Urban Dead can be seen as a competitive game where two factions fight each other; while the game is open-ended, this is the main source of conflict, and conflict means excitement, suspense, drama, and lulz. I submit that the current game mechanics, while playable, encourage avoidance, rather than confrontation between the factions, which takes away this important source of entertainment. This makes UD a dull game—more so for zombies than for survivors, but frustrating for both, really.
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| Under current game mechanics, lone zombies are underpowered and generally lose (as in: they fail to achieve what they set out to do, viz. nomming brainz), while organised zombies are unbeatable and always win. The former is clearly due to zombie attacks being too weak, this hardly needs elaboration, and it should be obvious how this suggestion addresses the issue. The latter is a more subtle effect, but still easily explainable (I hope).
| | Q: If it wastes AP, what is the point? |
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| In Urban Dead, players who are online attack players who are offline, whose characters take damage passively. The main difference between survivors and zombies is how they deal with attacks:
| | A: It will be useful if you want to carry around an extra stash of items, such as FAKs and Revivification Syringes, or if you are going far away from any resource buildings and need some extra supplies. |
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| * Survivors can reduce the risk of being attacked by erecting barricades, and
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| * Zombies suffer little or no penalty for dying.
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| These are the pivotal, game-defining traits; the trade-offs; the strengths that make each faction competitive against the other. Everything else—attack odds and damage, skills, weapons, etc.—are refinements and qualifications on top of these main "faction advantages".
| | Please give your thoughts. |
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| Zombie groups are invincible because barricade interference allows a few coordinated zombies to take away survivors' vital faction advantage, turning a potentially interesting pitting of different combat styles into a plain fight to the death where one of the sides doesn't care about dying.
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| While this may be entirely fitting and proper, in-genre like, I submit that, in a competitive game, it sucks goats arse. When a comparatively small team of players can consistently wipe out multitudes overnight, there is something clearly broken. A hundred zombies shouldn't be able to take on 400 survivors, at least not without a long, bitter fight.
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| This, however, doesn't mean survivors are the side that suffers more. On the contrary, it's zombies who have it worse.
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| Interference is not a game breaker because survivors can work around it easily, by the simple expedient of avoiding confrontation with zombie groups. Survivors don't ''need'' to fight zombies. Naive survivors will still try, every so often, and become frustrated; more clever ones just spend their AP role-playing, cleaning up after the horde once it's moved on, harassing weak zeds in green suburbs. Or killing each other, of course, which is fair and fun, sod the silly zombies. So survivors have several viable options open for them to enjoy the game. Many will just abandon, though, having come here expecting to fight zombies, and realising that that particular sort of conflict is strongly discouraged by the game itself.
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| Zombies, on the other hand, don't have the prerogative of occupying themselves in other things. They are forced to either make a kill every blue moon, which is well frustrating, or joining a horde for guaranteed victory without challenge, which may be satisfactory for some but (I would think) boring for most. Plus, from my experience participating in the community, and developing metagaming tools: there's a significant segment of players who can't or won't metagame—a majority, in fact. And the "unchallenged certain victory" option doesn't apply to them. So the "leaving the game" alternative seems even more attractive for zombies.
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| In sum, the assumptions here are:
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| * Zombies are being forced to choose between certain defeat, which is frustrating, or certain victory without a challenge, which is arguably boring.
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| * Further, zombies are being forced to metagame in order to aspire to victory; otherwise it's frustration for them all the way.
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| * Survivors are being forced to choose between certain defeat, which is frustrating, or a number of activities which hardly involve zombies at all, which is silly in a zombie game.
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| * When survivors opt for avoidance, the main source of conflict in the game is lost. Which is a bloody shame and makes the game dull for everyone.
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| And the expected outcome is:
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| * All this sucks and many players will leave the game. More zombies than survivors.
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| For some sort of experimental confirmation, refer to [[Survivor-Zombie_Imbalance#The_Graphs]]. Which of course doesn't mean this theory is correct; only that it doesn't contradict observable facts.
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| As a further observation: while there are reasons for survivors to team up in groups, there really are no tactical reasons for such, at least none involving zombies. Creating large groups for the purpose of fighting hordes is pointless, since hordes can't be beaten no matter the size of the harman group, and lone zombies can be beaten without any coordination at all. [http://www.urbandead.com/stats.html]
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| ====Rationale====
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| What this suggestion seeks to achieve is to make zombies stronger than survivors, to increase their numbers, and to bring back conflict between the survivor and zombie factions. Think of:
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| * Scary feral zombies that can break into a building and kill a survivor in a single AP-cycle. No more complacent harmanz headshotting ferals on the street, then going back to sleep safely in their green suburbs. Survivors should be always on their toes. It's good for them.
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| * More players willing to play as zombie, since there'd be more action and killing for them, even without going through the hassle of coordinating with a horde, which is not for everyone. Zombies are already at a disadvantage here, most players seem to prefer human characters; the game really doesn't need to discourage a large portion of players from playing zombie.
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| * Survivors that actually stand a chance to defend against a horde. Viz.: massive, fun, fair, ''proper'' sieges.
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| * A meaningful reason for survivors to team up in groups.
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| |} | | |} |
| | | ====Discussion (Backpack)==== |
| ====Discussion (Make zombies stronger than survivors, but not invincible)==== | |
| Remove interference, add +2 damage to both attacks (to 5 and 6 for claws and bite), and add a +15% to-hit bonus for zombies attacking barricades, which is replaced by a -15% penalty when there are X or more zombies on that same square, X being negotiable. Allows ferals to take down cades easier but stops it being a complete cake-walk for hordes. Rationale is that a few zeds can work unhindered, a large horde means infighting, lack of manoueverability, etc. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 22:14, 31 May 2010 (BST)
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| :Cheers Mis, yup, this sounds reasonable, although I'm not sure complicating calculations of the odds. I will wait for more input here, will try to run some numbers as well, may very well end up modifying it to resemble this. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 00:39, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::As a feral player, I agree with Mis basically. The one big letdown for ferals are barricades, and they should be the primary thing that should be dealt with. Needing 40AP (VSB) to 80AP (EHB) just to get in is just madness from the lone feral's PoV, especially as the enemy can conveniently cade up with just 10AP to VSB and then headshot the intruder at his leisure, unless the feral gets lucky with his feeding groan. At the same time, I think that a penalty for hordes, while not a bad idea, is effectively pointless. Timed strike teams don't care about the penalty, as decading anyway takes up a minor amount of APs on the individual level for them. Anything that would be sufficiently painful would just encourage salami tactics where teams who are just big enough to don't trigger the penalty move into the square, attack, move out and let the next team hit. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 21:25, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::Fair enough, this is good stuff. Would you be agreeable to, instead of buffing zeds by increasing damage, increasing their accuracy to say 150% of current values? That's 75% for claws and 45% for bite. From Aichon's numbers [[User:Aichon/Other/Fighting the AP War#Barricades|here]], I believe this would mean a full skilled zed could destroy a VSB+2 in 26 AP, an EHB+4 in 56 AP, and kill a bodybuilder in 23 AP. With those averages, ferals at full AP can realistically break into a VSB and kill a harman by themselves about half the times they try. Timed strike teams don't care much about cades, indeed, and they would deal a lot more damage this way, but without interference, this doesn't mean the whole horde gets in behind the strike team. So survivors have a fighting chance. How's this sound? --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 22:04, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::::Sounds fair enough at large. (I'd yet think that the upper end of barricades needs some nerfing so that a lone feral has a considerable chance to get inside within a single AP cycle, especially as about every freerunner prefers to sleep in them. But that's another can of worms that would make the suggestion even more far-reaching and invasive than it already is.) --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 22:20, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::::I hear you, this is already too disruptive, slim chance to pass muster, that's why I want to keep it as simple as possible. Anyway, consider that, with these odds, killing a harman with claws becomes nearly as AP-efficient as a combat revive. Plus ferals have groans going for them, it isn't that hard to find a building with low cades, full of hurt harmanz... --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 22:58, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| You people are underestimating ferals. [[Tompson Mall|Tompson]] and [[Marven Mall]] have, more often then not, been under zombie control since the MOB came through, quite a while ago. The zombies' woes should not be shifted from cades to meatshields. Up the damage of both attacks by 1, and leave cades alone. --{{User:TripleU/Sig}} 23:25, 31 May 2010 (BST)
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| :Heh. I'm not certain about Tompson, but funny you mention Marven, because that mall is one of the reasons that moved me to suggest this. Marven Mall is most certainly not being held by ferals, but by [[The Good Doctor's Lost and Lonely Children|a very impressively well-coordinated pack of about 10 rotters]], who are able to tear down the barricades, get inside and squat, all of them together, in 2 minutes flat, every day. This group single-handedly defeated survivors out-numbering them by at least 3 to 1, very likely more, and including at least three well-coordinated survivor groups (forums + IRC) plus a largish population of "feral survivors" floating around the mall. For all I know, they are still struggling; I gave up as a pointless waste of my time after a month of this. Do let me know if you'd like screenies of these zombies working together, we have tons of them, and these guys are really, really good (kudos, santaria). This is not unlike Clubbed to Death holding Blesley Mall, or the Butthole Surfers holding Joachim, when they did.
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| :And btw, this was quite the surprise, for CAPD at least, since we just had defeated some 30 actual ferals who tried for several weeks to break into our HQ. We assumed, like you just did, that Marven was being held by ferals who remained there after the MOB. One of silliest mistakes I've seen us make.
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| :In any case, I respect your opinion of course, cheers for your input. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 00:39, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| Not a fan. I follow your logic, but we seem to have different opinions on what we want out of the game. I had a lot more typed up, but can summarize it as follows: this game can be balanced in a number of different ways, based on what it is that is desired, and right now, I like the fact that it's balanced around small scale encounters favoring the survivors while large scale ones favor the hordes. It makes RP sense and keeps the game interesting (including for feral zombies, I believe, since I get plenty of eats when my dual nature character is dead, even though she doesn't follow any hordes around). I ''do'' think that zombie interference is overpowered, but I ''don't'' think that removing it entirely is the answer, especially so if you couple it with a damage increase, since that would just pressure people to join strike teams. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 00:23, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| :Understood, thank you. Indeed, what each player wants out of the game is a personal opinion. I'm sure my good Cap'n Sednik's expectations are a lot closer to yours than mine. Personally, I don't mind if the game ''favours'' hordes in certain scenarios, but I believe survivors having ''absolutely no chance'' in those isn't healthy for the game. I'm not sure I follow your comment about strike teams.
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| :My feral manages a break-in rather often, perhaps once every two days. Kills however are much rarer, I'd say it's probably once or twice a week. This for a full-skilled rotter. Considering that BHing I average about a kill a day, I really think feral zombies could use more hurt power to be as fun to play as a survivor. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 09:52, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::Regarding strike teams, my thought was that if we eliminate interference and increase damage, strike teams will be far and away the best way to get food even more than they already are, I mean). Not only will the strike teams be leaving behind less scraps for ferals, but they'll also be incapable of holding the doors open. Right now, we have three types of zombie play: strike team, feral in a horde, and lone feral. This change would make the second one much less meaningful since groans wouldn't be as useful (given the lack of interference) and they would find less food when they did get in. That may be a way of lessening the strength of the horde, but I see it as a bad thing, since it incentivizes strike teams (this, coming from someone who has led zombie strikes) while discouraging a type of gameplay that should be fostered. I do appreciate where you're coming from, and you take a logical stance on it, but we simply seem to differ in opinion on what is the desired state of things. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 23:20, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::Ah, I see it now. Yup, I agree, this would encourage strike teams, and would make unlife harder for horde-ferals. I would only add at this point that, at the same time, they would benefit from the increased rates, along with every other feral. And I also agree that you and I expect different things out of the game heh. And to be perfectly honest, I really believe your stance holds more weight than mine, since I don't do much survivor or zombie play any more, lost interest in both already. In UD, I play my feral casually to fill time, but mostly keep to killing people with guns. And well, just trying to make harmanz and zombies more interesting here, for my tastes of course :") --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 06:52, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::Very good point. I haven't been around before the introduction of cade blocking to see it first hand, but to see the cades rising again to EHB 2 minutes after a strike should be frustrating to a feral, to say the least. Also, from a survivor RP PoV I like that that makes attacking zombies a priority, rather than the sign of trenchieness as that it has been laughed at before. Some form of cade-blocking should be retained, although the current numbers are too extreme. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 06:39, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::::I'm sure there was a recent suggestion about making interference dependent on survivor (or zombie) numbers. I'll look it up when I'm back from work, maybe something like that would work here. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 06:52, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::::I had posted a suggestion here to that effect a couple months back. Currently reworking it before I bring it back here for more bashing and maybe a little more support. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 09:22, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| As Aichon, I understand what you want to do but I don't think this is the way to go about it. Removing zombie interference entirely is asking for a revert of one of the most powerful changes to UrbanDead, and your increase to damage creates too many new problems (notably, does a Flak Jacket reduce the damage from a zombie (under current mechanics, it should)? And if zombies are doing more damage, and ferals are perfectly strong on their own--what incentive do survivors have for hanging around and engaging in seiges instead of running away (like they already do)? --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 07:43, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| :Also thank you, Maverick. Indeed, this is reverting an important change introduced to make zombies more powerful. My point is that, in achieving that, hordes became unstoppable and, in that sense, if you allow me to abuse a math concept, the game has been "solved". Meaning an infallible winning strategy is available, and is simple enough to be implemented. Think tic-tac-toe, which is trivially solvable by all but the most naive players. Now I'm certainly not arguing that Urban Dead as a whole is "trivially solvable"; I'm arguing that a very important part of it is, and that detracts from the game's enjoyability.
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| :I don't think I agree that "ferals are perfectly strong on their own". But in any case, the buff I propose for zombies is so extraordinary because I'm well aware that removing interference would weaken them ''a lot''. Do you see why I think adjusting odds or damage are a change of a very different nature than interference? I believe fiddling with the numbers affects balance linearly; interference destroys the core survivor advantage in the game, making the actual numbers pretty much irrelevant.
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| :The incentive I foresee for survivors hanging around is: once interference is removed, large-scale sieges become once again winnable by survivors. Perhaps very hard to win, but the possibility would exist. I believe survivors run away because it's been quite thoroughly demonstrated that, under the current mechanics, a large-scale siege can not be won, so what's the point in staying? (and before you or Ross come here to remind me of 404 feats: I'm well aware of those, and I also believe those are not reproducible by mere mortals :P).
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| :As for flaks, I think they shouldn't have any effect. I'm trying to keep changes to a minimum: flaks should still make no difference against zombies, XP gained should still be the amount of damage inflicted, half XP for zed on zed, etc. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 09:52, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::While logically you are arguing that the game has been "solved" to the point where zombies will inevitably win, have you forgotten that survivors continue to maintain a significant advantage of numbers? Look at your own links above. With the notable exception of The Dead, zombies have been fortunately lucky to just hit a 1:1 ratio with survivor numbers, let alone surpass them. You have to keep in mind with suggestions like this not only the actual numbers and mechanical effects, but the biggest variable in the game: '''HUMAN NATURE'''. People as a whole are very ill-inclined to change their behavior unless they have a damn good reason to, and I do not see this suggestion presenting that reason for survivors to congregate en masse for a large-scale siege with MOB or the RRF. In fact, I see your suggestion doing even more to "solve" UD than you already propose because now you are essentially saying that zombies can maul survivors twice as fast for half as much AP. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 23:04, 1 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::Hey Mav. No I'm not arguing that the game has been solved for zombies! Quite the contrary: as those numbers indeed show, zombies barely stand a chance. I'm arguing that the game has been solved for ''hordes'', a minority of zombiehood; but survivors can and do bypass this very, very easily, simply by refusing to fight hordes. They run away, indeed. What I'm saying is that this is ''boring'', both for survivors and zombies alike.
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| :::I believe this change could bring large-scale sieges back--or maybe not, there really hasn't been a large survivor victory since ''ruin'' was introduced--but in any case, I don't think it would be as you seem to expect, like, people reading this and going "oh, let's stand up against the MOB now". I think it would be more like: some survivors eventually win a wee siege, realise it can be done, maybe organise themselves better, try a bigger one next time, etc. Survivors can, and used to fight, some still try even now. I honestly believe they just need to know they have a chance to win.
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| :::As for you last comment, what I take from it is that I haven't made myself clear, I'm sorry about that. Perhaps a mental experiment would help me get the point across. Think of a horde attacking a well-populated mall. Say they strike with 10 zeds, decade and get in, kill 10 harmanz and squat inside. The rest of the fight takes place between un-coordinated players: more survivors wake up in the following hours and kill the zeds, but at the same time more zeds wake up as well, get inside the open building, kill more survivors and keep the doors open. This goes on until the mall is empty.
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| :::With this change, I expect things would go this way: strike team decades and gets in, kills ''20'' harmanz, but then the next bloke who wakes up seals the building. Then more survivors wake up and kill the zeds, more zeds wake up too ''but they have to fight against barricades again'', not just walk in and kill. Who will win in the end? Who knows. The zombies, quite likely, because they'll be even stronger than now, but they won't win overnight. And if there are enough survivors, and they're organised well enough to keep reviving the dead and barricading, survivors might [[Second Siege of Caiger Mall|just]] [[The Battle of Santlerville|win]]. And meanwhile, ferals are wreaking havoc all over town, making those smug survivors work hard for their green 'burbs. That's the vision, at least.
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| :::The point being: I think damage or rate adjustments benefit ''all'' zombies, and make survivors work harder but not necessarily defeats them; interference benefits mainly hordes, and it ''disables'' survivors, regardless of rates. Buffs of different natures. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 06:52, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| Throwing in my 2 cents. Ignore 404 completely. They will never be repeated. Mostly because they were created by the current imbalance. 30 players who learned how to play UD by being hyper organised zombies just transferred what they knew to being survivors. World wide membership meant that cadeblocking hardly ever happened. There is no survivor alternative for this learning experience. Survivors don't need to be good at surviving. It just happens. Thats one of the reasons long term players start drifting towards the zombie side. Its more challenging. As for removing cade blocking? Seems a good idea, but I'd throw in some other bonus. Personally I'd double all repair costs. But then I'm massively biased. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 19:36, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| :Halp! Nerf! This man wants to nerf survivors!
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| :Heh. I actually have a highfalutin theoretical explanation and model of how 404 could do the things they did. I'll spare you the pain. Just, yeah, not applicable generally. Question: would this other bonus be instead of the buff to zombie attacks, or in addition to it? See I already broke quite a few guidelines here, especially ''No Stopgap Balancing Measures'', so I'm going very carefully. I wish I had the time to rig up a simple simulation, you know, run some numbers through ''a Computer'', because I'm already afraid of my buffed up zombies.
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| :... which maybe isn't bad, that's my point after all: I can't remember the last time a zombie killed me, I mean, without me deliberately exposing myself for them to do so. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 22:03, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::Exposing yourself to zombies? Thats the definition of [[404]]. Throw up your 404 explanation over on the DSS forum, I'd be massively interested. As for the bonuses, it all depends what you want. Feral life is more challenging, but its also very reflective of genre. Current Siege mechanics are pretty much pure Romero circa 1970's. Its a bugger to get in, but once you do its time to head for the helicopter. If you really want to have fun with survivors, why not Cap Barricade levels at VSB? --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 22:52, 2 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::And that's [[DSS]] as well, but it gets old. You've seen it, we resort to silly games to keep us interested. Last siege I was involved in, out of loyalty to my other group, frustrated me so much, the sheer pointlessness of it all, that I ended up quitting and idling a character I was really fond of. Tbh, the only thing keeping me in UD is killing people, that's a fair game where you can actually win or lose depending on how good you and your team are. Zombies? Sigh, much as I love the genre (and I agree, UD is quite in-genre now), man, as a game, I just can't be arsed. And I know I'm not the only one.
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| :::Oh well. Heh okies, I'll write that up asap in the forum, just gimme a couple days cause work is hell these days. And, um, well the "rationale" thing above pretty much says what I want. Action! Things happening with uncertain outcomes! Fairness! And noo the hell you mean capping cades at VSB? I want to have fun with harmanz, not exterminate them! :P --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 09:03, 3 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::::I can actually get behind Ross' idea of capping cades at VSB, and would also set entry points lower at lightly or QSB to keep an trade-off. That would very elegantly solve a lot of barricade frustration for ferals, while only marginally boost strike-teams. But good luck getting such an one-sided buff through the the voting system, even if you'd nerf or completely remove cade-blocking along with it :( --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 11:40, 3 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::::Actually, I hadn't thought it through. See, if I were to suggest capping the cades, then of course I'd forget about any hitrate buff, that'd be too much. So (again from Aichon's numbers) a VSB+2 would take a full-skilled zed 40 AP avg to tear down, which is the current cost, and which isn't that much better than the 56 AP required for an EHB+4 under my revised rates. But getting VSB+2 is ''so much easier'' for survivors than EHB+4. Plus, killing the meatshields would cost zeds exactly what it costs now: a lot.
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| :::::So if I were to suggest "cap cades at VSB and remove interference", that probably would be much easier on survivors than my current 150% rates. You sure you'd still back this? :D --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 12:11, 3 June 2010 (BST)
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| ::::::Just said that I can get behind the rationale (as it makes sole use of what is already in the game and so does what it does very elegantly), not that that is the 100% perfect solution. On second thought, it would also take a lot of sting from overcading and pinatas and so also weaken the zombie side.
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| ::::::So I'd rather go with increased hit chances against cades for zeds (especially as that would make attacking cades more reliable, rather than seeing often that you put 20AP into attacking cades and than just get 1 level removed with only marginally bad luck.)
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| ::::::But what would be really needed is a massive linked suggestion all of a piece that deals with the roadblock of cades by increased hit rates against them especially, nerfs cade blocking without completely removing it (see Aichon's point about ferals following striketeams), increases damage output by raising hit chances and/or damage (so that the lone feral has a serious chance to break in and kill or at least drag one fully healthy survivor) and also increases revive costs to make kills more meaningful, without making CRs and therefore also death-cultists senseless. But I'd need to run some math through by myself before suggesting actual numbers for the points above. --{{User:Spiderzed/Sandbox/Sig}} 12:39, 3 June 2010 (BST)
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| :::::::I hear you, again. Indeed, the reason I only play my feral half-arsedly at best, is because his whole game is a grind against barricades. And yes Aichon's point is noted, horde-ferals won't benefit that much from the strikes, and I've been trying to think of something for them, but can't seem to find a solution. But really, would it be all that bad? By definition, "ferals following a horde" means large concentrations of zombies hitting a target, and these are zombies that can tear down EHB+4 in little more than 50 AP. The chance of just waking up to low cades would be quite high.
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| :::::::Meanwhile, think also as a survivor. Survivors are currently overpowered offensively, but that means squat in a siege, because in a siege it's zeds who play offensively, and harmanz play defensively. It's zeds offensive capabilities vs harmanz defensive, it's about balancing ''those''. And the ''only'' harman defence is barricades. And a few coordinated zeds have a way to ''completely disable'' harmanz defence--no wonder they're unstoppable.
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| :::::::Survivor life is just a dull grind of a different kind. They lounge all over town just doing nothing, best bet for entertainment is murder and RP. They're just there to wait until a horde chooses to visit, so the horde has something to eat while they're there--and when that happens, they're forbidden to put up a fight. Survivors are being asked to wait doing nothing until they can provide entertainment to the hordes. In a sense, we are all playing UD just so a few coordinated zeds can get laughs. That doesn't sound fair, doesn't sound fun, and to me it's no wonder the game is losing players. --{{User:Hashk/sig}} 20:57, 3 June 2010 (BST)
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| ==Suggestions up for voting==
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| '''Feeding Drag Change''' moved to [[Suggestion talk:20100531 Feeding Drag Change]]
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| '''Increase variety of useful melee weapons''' moved to [[Suggestion talk:20100519 Increase variety of useful melee weapons]]
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