Talk:Suggestions/28th-Mar-2007

Flaks restrict movement

Discussion moved here from the main page:

1. 'the truth is that even with a 20% damage reduction the average HP/AP of guns is better then that of the axe' That is true of a straight-forward HP to AP dynamic, but then that's not all that has to be considered in the case of a gun-to-axe comparison: You have to consider the AP spent on searches. The most accessible ammo locations on the map are the Police Departments and they are quoted in the wiki as giving you a 7% chance of obtaining a pistol clip (armouries and malls without Bargain Hunting are a shade better but harder to find and during mall tours ammo is very much at a premium), so in fifty searches you will find an average of 3.5 clips, which will take you a further 21 AP to discharge and will do a maximum of 84 HP damage to flak jacketed zombies. In actuality, with the maximum available accuracy of 65%, the straight maths leaves you with just 54.6 HP of damage in return for 71 AP spent: (21x4)-35%=54.6 HPs damage done, now add the 50 AP spent searching for the ammo and you have 71 AP. In contrast 71 AP spent using a fire axe yields 85.2 HP because of the lack of searches: (71x3)-60%=85.2. In malls without the combination of Shopping and Bargain Hunting the maximum search success rate (according to the wiki) is 11%, so that is 5.5 clips (33 bullets) per 50 AP spent searching. That's 83 AP. Against flak jacket-equipped zombies that amounts to 85.8 HP of damage for your 83 AP spent searching and shooting. In contrast 83 AP spent on using the fire axe yields a 99.6 HP return, so a reduced gap, but still a significant 13.8 HP edge in favour of the axe against armoured zombies. Remove the flak jackets from the zombies and the PD search-based equation yields 68.25 HP of damage inflicted by the pistol to the axe's 85.2. When you remove flak jackets from the Malls-without skills equation though, pistol efficiency jumps to 107.25 HP inflicted for 83 AP to the fire axe's 99.6, so finally we see a significant bonus for using the pistol, but you have to remove the flak jackets from the zombies and have consistent access to an open mall and the fact is that that is simply infeasible. Naturally the Shopping and Bargain Hunting combination when used in a mall massively boosts the efficiency of firearms, but then firstly malls are relatively rare within the game and are zombie-magnets and so often overrun. Overall the fire axe then proves the more efficient weapon for any user not spending the entire game mall-hanging, and wouldn't it be better for the game as a whole if it were all a tad less 'mall-centric'? --The Hierophant. 02:16, 29 March 2007. (Edited at 10:37).

The above pistol analysis seems incomplete, because it neglects the fact that anybody searching for pistol ammo ALSO finds shotguns and shotgun ammo. You find a pistol clip 7% of the time, but you also find a shotgun shell another 7% of the time, and occasionally find a loaded pistol or shotgun. Point is, if you aren't needlessly picky about what you shoot, guns are much more effective than the above analysis indicates. --S.Wiers^ctdp_NTmap^x:oo 17:52, 1 April 2007 (BST)

Btw, please argue how this Pk-er argument is a flawed one instead of merely saying it. That way the voters might change our minds on the merits. Update The problem is exacerbated by the fact that guns are intended to be the primary weapons used against zombies (...) in spite of extra AP spent on the lower accuracy and the whole single hit point lost against an armoured zombie, the number of AP not spent searching for ammo makes (axe) more worthwhile.

1. Nice of you to adress my question But your reasoning is flawed. Flackjacketed zombies are in the minority. So in no way could your argument hold because the statement

   We don't want ammoless weapons outperform ammo using weapons on average does not equal

   Guns should always be the best weapon of choice in every situation even if you were right about the average HP/AP per attack. But the truth is that even with a 20% damage reduction the average HP/AP of guns is better then that of the axe.--Vista 09:21, 29 March 2007 (BST)

   on your new comment, 'Flackjacketed zombies are in the minority' So are PKers. I agree completely but that still does not means the one needs nerfing and that the other needs a boost.--Vista 09:35, 29 March 2007 (BST)

Guys, I moved your discussion here, because this is where discussions go - not with the votes. If you feel strongly that I've done wrong, I'll move your stuff back, or you can report me to vandal banning or whatever. I am acting in good faith, though - and trying to avoid long debates on the main page, which is in-keeping with the spirit (and rules) of that page. --Funt Solo 11:00, 29 March 2007 (BST)

---