Suggestion talk:20080410 Free Calling and Charges

Jack13's Concern about Spamming

Jack13, first off, I think you're misunderstanding a basic way that cell phone work in game. They do not work like radios. When someone calls you, assuming you're both in cell coverage areas, it beeps and you get a text message. You have to click on the phone, then it shows the message. So there's no screen spam. This is not a radio. Also even if there was, it would be easily fixed with an option to block calls by simply not having the spammer on your contact list (not that it would be an issue anyway, due to how cell phones show messages. Third, there are already free actions in the game. Dropping items is a free action. Zombies blocking barracaders is a free action. The only difference is -this- free action still has a cost if you want to keep the free action (5 AP to recharge). And metagaming is a free action, which does the same thing but forces you to go out of the game to do it, instead of playing the game, you're being in a chat group essentially. I stated this in the suggestion itself, and it was on Talk:Discussion, which you were a part of (I wish you had made your concerns back about spam then, btw). I look forward to hearing what you have to say in response to this. --Tselita 18:27, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Okay, simple version

1. A phone has to have signal on both ends to send
2. Both people have to add each other as a contact
3. Oh Noes, someone sent me 50 of the same messages! Simple, just click the phone, then click something else. There all gone.
4. But how do I stop it from happening? Maybe ignore the contact?
5. 158 messages? Seems kind of odd because your two alts would have to have that person as a contact, then that contact would have to have your two alts. To avoid anti-zerging it would have to be in a different suburb, that's 3 suburbs, possibly without signal.
6. When was the last time you used a mobile phone?

So as you can see from above there are a few reasons why it would be pointless to send a message '158' times. I have a phone with me because I like the RP point of view and I have never, ever had a single spam message. Ever in my 2 years of playing urban dead with 2 main characters, not once have I recieved a bad message. And I doubt I will even if it is a 0AP action. If anything this will stimulate more normal talk within Malton. Sorry if it seems that I'm butting in, I just thought I'd share. Acoustic Pie 19:09, 10 April 2008 (BST)

You're not butting in - it's a discussion forum on this suggestion - and you make -many- good points about why there's no reason to ever worry about this suggetion being used for spamming --Tselita 20:24, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Why would somebody you have in your contact list spam you in the first place? Obviously you can just set them to ignore, or drop them as a contact!  Swiers 20:06, 10 April 2008 (BST)

That's my point. Jack13's concern about spamming doesn't make sense, and I just want people (including Jack13) to realize that. For many, many reasons, spamming with cell phones is a non-issue should not be a concern. --Tselita 20:24, 10 April 2008 (BST)

only the spammer needs your profile #. I stated the EXTREME case of someone being a jerk. 2:Pie... Don't worry about butting in, discussion is good. annd, i've used my cell 5 times this week. but you guys bring up some good points.

only the spammer needs your profile #. Cell phone messaging requires the sender and receiver to be MUTUAL contacts. So not only would the smapper have to ad you as a contact (obviously easy for him to do) but you would have to add the spammer as a contact, in some setting other than "ignore".  Swiers 20:45, 10 April 2008 (BST)

I talk insesently in-game, and willing pay the AP price for the fun of it. but, you'll see the result of our discussion. -- Jack ^{S13 T! PC} 20:39, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Heh, well some people just like to keep discussions between themselves, and I didn't want to seem imposing by butting in with a few comments to put your vote in the doghouse. Still, if by chance you get a spammer as a contact and they have you (for whatever reason) then it wouldn't be efficient to spam you to death with texts, to then spam the radio or speech or whatever. It would loose it's novelty after a while, so unless you're a real UD jerk this won't affect you. I too like to use my mobile phone, being in a group which protects a phone mast I know how fun they can be (well it'd be kind of hypocritical if I didn't use the phone really). MY only beef with the phones is the text size, even though it's a bug I really don't want to upgrade to firefox, or at least I'll wait a few weeks after FF3 is realised then get it. But other than that, this 0AP move will be good, it'll spark at least some more ingame talking and saves the use of metagaming as much. Acoustic Pie 20:58, 10 April 2008 (BST)

To add a few things, even with a suggestion I had that contacts do not need to be mutual, this suggestion would work fine. You always have the option to ignore a contact, and even if Real GAYmer would create tons of level 1 zergs to target you alone, the method I had allowed you to choose an option to allow personal contacts only (the current mutual contact system) to call you. And on a massive level, phone spam would be minimal. Most spammers target the whole city, so they'd just stick with the radio to do so. There's little chance of phone spam as a result.--Kolechovski 04:32, 23 April 2008 (BST)

WanYao's complaint about phones

To be honest, I have no idea what WanYao is talking about now. Is he saying he wants a phone where you can contact someone you've never met before? How the heck would you get someone you've never met before on a phone list in the first place? Plus... "X should be implemented first is not a valid reason for a vote. You are voting on the merit of THIS suggestion, not how it compares to others." Could anyone please explain what he's talking about in his vote so I know how to respond to it, please? Honestly. I'm not slamming, I genuinely don't understand what he's talking about. Is he saying he just doesn't like having cell phones in general in the game beacuse they use contact lists? --Tselita 12:26, 11 April 2008 (BST)

He's saying the reasons he finds phones ineffective in game are he can't CC people in to a text and that he can't text someone unless they are both on each other lists (in RL this would be akin to me texting you with your number that your friend gave me and you receiving the text with no idea who its from, i should still be allowed to text you). In terms of killing the suggestion i presume he doesn't think this would make phones anymore useful in the game than they currently are, hence kill. I could be totally wrong on this since i'm not him but thats the impression i got, and IMO they are both valid points (particularly the CC one).--xoxo 14:04, 21 April 2008 (BST)

But how would you ever be able to call someone who you don't even know? Is he saying that randomly calling people is the better way to be? Requiring people to both be on the contact list is one of the ways that spamming is prevented. --Tselita 14:43, 21 April 2008 (BST)

Yeah the spamming thing is an issue, personally i like my idea of one colour being allocated to being on your contacts but unable to contact you on the phone. You'll have to ask him about that point because i honestly don't know.--xoxo 14:47, 21 April 2008 (BST)

Just read your J3Ds vote - so basically what you're saying is there should be 2 types of messages - one for people who are on your contact list, and one for people not on your contact list. That's actually not a bad idea, but it doesn't really have much to do with the current suggestion... there can always be another suggestion made to implement what you mentioned. It could work well in conjunction WITH this idea, but I'm trying to keep the idea simple, since the rules currently in place for contact lists help prevent using a phone to spam (although if someone on your contact list spams you, you could always put them on ignore, or maybe a SEPARATE suggestion would be able to be implemented to have a specific 'phone ignore' tab). Later people are of course free to make other suggestions to improve the usefulness of cell phones even further (and they do - I hope that if this is passed, maybe Kevan will look at ALL the Peer Reviewed cell phone suggestions and implement several to make phones overall more useful in the game). --Tselita 14:52, 21 April 2008 (BST)

Yeah i didn't really mean to change your suggestion, just putting other phone ideas out there. I don't think you fully get what i mean, i mean that if texting doesn't cost AP then i can be spammed. Now of course randoms couldnt spam me, but someone like Finis who i have on my contacts (as an enemy) and who as me on his, can text me even if i don't want him to. What i proposed is that one colour (black?) be set aside for people you want to show up in game but do not want texting you, catch my drift?--xoxo 05:22, 22 April 2008 (BST)

Yeah, totally catch the drift. And it's a good idea for a future suggestion (or an alternative might be to be able to put certain people on a 'phone ignore' list, just like there's an 'ignore' on the contacts list. --Tselita 05:39, 22 April 2008 (BST)

Jack's other concerns

Just need to go through the reasons with my responses. 1) You've always had to be in a burb with a working mast if you want to use your cell phone - that hasn't changed (so that part of your vote statement doesn't really make sense to me) 2) Making sure the phone is charged is much less of an AP expenditure than making 50 calls at 1 AP each. 3) you willingly pay the AP price to talk with 'speak' to people in your safehouse because otherwise, there would be potential for massive spam. Would that I could figure a way to make speaking in a safehouse 0 AP without encouraging spamming, I would, but there's no way to do that unfortunately. (and the suggestion is not meant to deal with safehouse speaking in the first place).

I understand that the primary problem you have it the idea of charging a phone, though far as I can figure, it's the fairest way to give a 0 AP action while maintaining balance. Besides, there's still the fact that the main reason for this is to encourage in-game communication, not just metagame communication. If I can't change your mind on this though, I understand and appreciate you taking the time to think through the vote as thoroughly as you have. Thanks for considering the vote change at least. --Tselita 19:06, 11 April 2008 (BST)

Original talk:suggestions text

Free Calling

Timestamp:	Tselita 19:24, 8 April 2008 (BST)
Type:	Mobile Phone Improvement
Scope:	Humans (and, according to Iscariot, zombies)
Description:	Okay I was in the comments on Cell Boost and that comment by WanYao made me think of making this suggestion. Mobile Phones, as WanYao very aptly stated, are almost useless. Why on earth will anyone ever waste an AP to send a text to someone on your contact list (which usually maans someone in your group or a friend or something), when there are so many limitations as well - they have to have a phone, the phone masts in both suburbs must be working, etc. So in order to make the mobile phone more useful, make it cost 0 AP. Before anyone yells 'Free action! no way', think about this. Most people just wind up communicating with each other though metagame methods instead anyway - forums, wiki, bulletin boards, websites, etc. Meta-gaming costs 0 AP as well. Wouldn't it be nice to give an incentive to bring some of that metagaming back into -in-game- er... gaming again? Why penalize someone for wanting to do group communication in game (which enhances the flavor of the game) instead of out of game? And who among us has not used a cell phone while walking around or doing other stuff at the same time? Note: Using the cell phone will still count towards the 160 IP limit. Benefits: 1) Encourages in game communication instead of out-of-game metagaming. Metagaming is fine and dandy, but in game communication makes the game more fun, especially to those of us who want to really roleplay and get immersed in the game itself) 2) Makes cell phones useful, finally. 3) Encourages groups to maintain cell phone masts with more intensity. Since I've started playing, I haven't seen more than 30% cell phone coverage. There isn't a lot of reason to use resources on a phone mast building which has little practical use. 4) Does not change the current state of people communicating through metagame methods - you're still free to do planning through out-of-game methods as well. This just is an expansion on an already existing method of communicating. 5) A 0 AP action is not without precedence - Dropping items costs 0 AP as well. Detriments: 1) Some people will argue (/whine?) it's a free action, and free actions are bad, and will cause the downfall of civilization, and puppies and kittens will die of sadness as a result of this free action. 2) Iscariot is going to ask me if zombies can use mobile phones. PS - sorry that I'm making soooo many suggestions in Talk:Discussion ... I know this is my 6th suggestion on Talk:Discussion so far (and I have 3 more waiting in the wings), but I have time on my hands and an active imagination. Anyway.... DISCUSS!

Discussion (Free Calling)

new classes ae generaly rejected very quickly, and this is one that breaks Sugg, do an don't do, as in modified AP. as soon as i read 60AP/30HP i saw about a dozen spam votes heading your way. umm, also the skill prices are to complicated. --Jack ^{S13 T! PC} 20:03, 8 April 2008 (BST)

yo... that was in the wrong section.

I didn't think you'd actually want to suggest this, but now you've gone and dome it... sort of...

"normal talking costs about the same, 1AP for roughly 250 characters. (i blab alot in-game) so i'd say the cost is balanced, changing it to 0AP would cause alot of balance kill votes." - from me(below in cell change dis.) --Jack ^{S13 T! PC} 20:23, 8 April 2008 (BST)

To balance this maybe make it so the cell phone dies agter like 50 uses from low batteries and you have to get anothjer, or you could charge it in a building with a generator for like 5AP. --Super Nweb

I don't like the idea of having to get another, but I do like the idea of having to recharge in a building with a generator after every 50 users. I guess 5AP would be a good amount, considering being able to talk for 0 AP. Nice idea, Super Nweb! --Tselita 20:49, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Zombies can use mobile phones -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 20:42, 8 April 2008 (BST)

• Are you trying out for the role of my arch nemesis or something, Iscariot? Must I bludgeon you with a mobile phone now as well? *shakes head* well I did say that would be one of the detrimental effects.--Tselita 20:49, 8 April 2008 (BST)

• There, I changed the scope. I'm going to bludgeon you now with the phone, Iscariot. --Tselita 21:02, 8 April 2008 (BST)

I normally have to pay extra for this sort of thing :D -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:05, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Thank you Iscariot. Now in addition to being annoyed about thinking about who zombies are putting on their Fave-5 with a browser exploit, I feel dirty as well *shiver* --Tselita 21:35, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Oh and Iscariot, you gonna vote keep on any of my suggestions in exchange for subjecting me to this very disturbing S&M allusion you just made? --Tselita 21:38, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Personally I'm unable to imagine why free actions like this would be bad so I'm down for your suggestion. The trade-off of having to charge your mobile phone from a portable generator sounds good too although someone would have to figure out a "fair" length for a charge and how much AP is used to charge a phone. (IMHO, one AP to charge). I think this is a good start when talking about enhancing mobile phones but it's not enough! :D --Zardoz 21:04, 8 April 2008 (BST)

• Normally I'd have wanted it to be 1 AP to charge as well, but I do agree that having it be 5AP to charge would be able to quiet some people who would otherwise say 'But it costs 1AP every time I speak!'. And the way I think of it is like this: every 1 AP of charging gives you 10 uses of the phone. Sounds better than every 1 AP of charging gives 50 AP uses of the phone, especially if I'm trying to convince people that there is an actual tradeoff happening. My cell phone in real life does take about 2 hours to charge then I can use it for the whole day, so a 10 to 1 ratio did sound about right (hence why I think I'm going to go with Super Nweb's suggestion on the charging. Plus it makes 'miscellaneous buildings' at least SOMEWHAT relevant as a reason you'd want a generator in there. Even though there's nothing to search for in there, at the very least you can use them to charge your dang phone. I also considered the idea that for every 1 AP you are charging, you get 10 uses, but I think that might be too hard to implement codewise and I'm going to sidestep people who are going to use that as an excuse to kill this suggestion by just suggesting 5 AP = phone is recharged. --Tselita 21:13, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Sounds reasonable. Overall all I'm saying is that I hope you don't stop there. Even with this change mobile phones will still be more of a gimmick then a useful item. Maybe you can throw in something like: mobile phones are GPS enabled (people carrying them can turn this feature off at will) and thus show up on all player's GPS receivers (zombies are unable to use this feature).--Zardoz 21:41, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Even if I was to make a suggestion like that, I wouldn't do it in the same suggestion as this one. Someone else might have a better thought out idea for it than me. And I don't generally like making multiple suggestions in one suggestion - Doing things in separate suggestions increases the likelihood that at least 1 of those suggestions will pass peer review. I'm all for including new feature on mobile phones in the future to make them more useful (like Cell Boost), but for now I'm wanting to work on this suggestion (... and the other 5 I have currently in suggestion review and Sledge Hammer up for a vote in Suggestions) :) --Tselita 22:07, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Hey you know, it's your parade and stuff, I'm just sayin'... --Zardoz 22:12, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Ya I know. And I'll probably suggest more phone stuff in the future. But just going to do this one for now. :) You da man. --Tselita 23:37, 8 April 2008 (BST)

I don't foresee anything new coming along in comments on this suggestion - bringing it to Vote with a few modifications (recharging phone) --Tselita 17:35, 9 April 2008 (BST)

For the record, I am an avid cell phone user in game and I welcome improvements such as this. I will miss my super-charged batteries that have been running since the early days of the quarantine, but I can over look that. A cell phone update would also be a really good time to improve the damned font that text messages come in. That stuff is barely readable! --Uncle Bill 05:47, 10 April 2008 (BST)

I look forward to your keep vote then :) Suggestions to improve the text font will be coming later, probably by someone skilled enough to show an example of an improved text font :) --Tselita 06:06, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Don't worry about it... the text thing is already in Peer Reviewed. I'll just make sure I "comment" on it when I vote keep. I figure that should be enough to jog Kevan's memory and if he updates cell phones, hopefully he'll do both together. --Uncle Bill 06:15, 10 April 2008 (BST)

Okay - this suggestion has been moved to voting - Vote keep! :)

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