Suggestion talk:20081016 Useless Use for the Crucifix

From Talk:Suggestions

The author forgot to move it and add this to the "suggestions up for voting" section, so I did it for him.Linkthewindow ^Talk 11:17, 17 October 2008 (BST)

Timestamp:	William Told 08:55, 5 October 2008 (BST)
Type:	Item use, Flavor
Scope:	Survivors, People who are sick of crucifix-related suggestions, Evangelists
Description:	Let's take a look at the crucifix. As in real life, carrying one around on your person in UD does absolutely nothing but leave you with less room to carry other things around. It wouldn't even make a decent bludgeon. But despite the fact that it's entirely reasonable that it not have a use, the crucifix appears on the suggestions page again and again. People try to assign it mystical or divine qualities that act as anti-zombie shields, assuming that everyone will share their assumption that teh evil zmobies fear Jebus; they try to give it some sort of divine smiting powers; they've even tried to make it block bullets! No more! I propose that the crucifix be used as a weapon in a manner similar to the newspaper: Attacking with a crucifix will cost 1 AP and inflict 0 damage at a 100% hit rate. The attacker will receive a message similar to, "You wave your crucifix at (target) for 0 damage. God does not wreak His vengeance upon them." The target will receive a message such as, "(attacker) waved a crucifix at you menacingly." or "(attacker) waved a crucifix at you. How odd." The text may be altered to be more or less flavorful. This suggestion gives the crucifix a use while it retains its definitively useless value, discouraging future crucifix-related suggestions by filling the perceived void in its non-use. It would also be fun for anyone who wants to RP as a crazy preacher or a christian who's suffered from a psychotic breakdown. Furthermore, people who RP as super-serious religious types may simply abstain from waving their crucifixes at people and not be affected by it. I am a christian in RL and am not submitting this as an anti-christian stunt, but rather in the hopes of discouraging people from suggesting supernatural uses for the crucifix.

Discussion (Useless Use for the Crucifix)

--– Nubis ^NWO 11:22, 13 October 2008 (BST)

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my suggestion. I welcome all constructive criticism.--William Told 08:55, 5 October 2008 (BST)

This game isn't a platform for religious debate, while individual players can certainly spread their views i think it would be wrong for the game to go in that direction, it's a fucking zombie game, can you leave it at that? --xoxo 09:12, 5 October 2008 (BST)

I like it. But don't include the "God does not smite them" bit. Just the "you wave a crucifix at X." Waving religious items at terrifying forces/perceived threats is something that HAPPENS during apocalypses...I don't see anything wrong with including a nod to it ingame. And I do think it would stop some of the mystical-supernatural suggestions related to the crucifixes. Though I doubt it would stop them for good. ("Crucifix improvement," coming at you...) I dunno. I'd wave them at people, and would be amused to have them waved at me. --Jen 11:45, 5 October 2008 (BST)

I agree. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 12:10, 5 October 2008 (BST)

The only way I'd support this is if the flavour text read "You wave your crucifix in their direction and nothing happened. What did you expect? That someone with less supporting evidence than the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus was just going to pop down and right all your wrongs? Welcome to the real world you delusional fuck!"

Until it does it gets the following template as it actually provides a use to crucifixes, which should be useless, just like in real life. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 12:02, 5 October 2008 (BST)

	S.F.S.T.!!
	This suggestion has been duped to death and/or we are tired of seeing it. You should read the SD/DN and the Frequently Suggested List many times. STOP POSTING!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iscariot (talk • contribs) at an unknown time. -- Galaxy125 21:51, 5 October 2008 (BST)

Reading comprehension anyone? Such as the part of my comment before where I mention "the following" template? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 17:12, 6 October 2008 (BST)

I'm pretty sure this isn't a dupe. Yes, it involves crucifixes, but it's not some sort of mystical BS. And while I like your flavor text, people seem to think mine isn't PC enough, so I don't think it'll fly.--William Told 19:48, 5 October 2008 (BST)

But the thing is, it has been suggested over and over and over and over again, both dealing damage, creating special effects, or doing primarily what you are suggesting. Clearly, this is not that creative, and clearly Kevan isn't implementing anything with it. So why bother? It is a dupe, but with modified numbers. Its the same thing. - tylerisfat 22:29, 5 October 2008 (BST)

True, but when it has been suggested before, it involves some kind of SUPERNATURAL effect creating the damage or other effect. The supernatural requirement being the key. This doesn't do that. It merely gives an affect ALREADY IN THE GAME to an object. Simply replace "newspaper" with "crucifix". It is an effect of a physical object. So HOW is this a dupe?--Pesatyel 06:33, 6 October 2008 (BST)

EXACTLY, it's giving a use to the crucifix. I don't care how pointless that use is, it gives it one. Crucifixes shouldn't have uses, they should be useless, just like in real life. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 17:12, 6 October 2008 (BST)

Uh...crucifixes have uses in real life. People wear them. People hang them on walls. People wave them at things to ward off evil influences. They're only useless when it comes to actually summoning supernatural help. Which is what the "crucifixes are useless just like in real life" phrase was created to respond to, if I'm not mistaken. You're expanding the definition of "useless" beyond its original (or at the very least sensible and reasonable) meaning, here.

I've run a search, and unless I missed something, this isn't a dupe at all. No one's suggested a "(non)-use" like this, ever. And why are people saying "Kevan isn't implementing anything with it"? Given the newspaper update that Kevan recently implemented, I think it makes perfect sense to present this is a parallel to newspapers, and to think that it would stand a decent chance of actually getting put into effect. People are going knee-jerk on this because it involves the word "crucifix," and I think rather missing the point. What the heck is WRONG with suggesting that an item that exists ingame be given a trivial use that a) fits the nature of the item, and how it IS used in real life, and b) fits inordinately well within the realistic/non-magical-mystical apocalypse genre? Especially considering that another item has just recently been given a useless use? --Jen 17:22, 6 October 2008 (BST)

The point is that any use, even trivial, endorses and promotes a particular religion. If you change crucifixes ingame to 'Religious Icon' it'd be fairer, however I'd still spam it to death. I have enough of religion in the real world where it's oppressed, killed and stifled humanity for thousands of years, I don't want it in the games I play. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 13:54, 8 October 2008 (BST)

Perhaps the template should be edited to say and/or we are tired of seeing it. I am going to make it say many times instead of adding a number. DCC would approve.--– Nubis ^NWO 02:38, 6 October 2008 (BST)

I think one thing people forget, but Jen alluded to above, is that FAITH can be a powerful ability. No, I'm not talking a faith in some supernatural power giving you some kind of benefit. I'm talking about a faith in something strong enough to allow one to perceiver. For example, it can be argued that a vampire isn't repelled by a holy symbol just because it is a holy symbol, but it is the BELIEF of the weilder that the symbol can ward off evil that causes the vampire to be repelled. God and/or the supernatural have nothing to do with it. It is strength of conviction and even that of comfort. How that might translate to such a simplistic game as Urban Dead, I don't know. Mayhe it doesn't. But I'm just trying to point out that the supernatural is irrelvant.--Pesatyel 06:33, 6 October 2008 (BST)

I'll keep that in mind if I ever make a realistic vampire game. For now, please focus on the merits of this suggestion, which have absolutely nothing to do with faith. It can affect people playing characters with strong Christian faiths or religious zeal, but provides absolutely no faith-based bonus. The idea of faith-based bonuses has been worked and reworked to death (though some say this suggestion has, too). --William Told 16:24, 6 October 2008 (BST)

The Power of Christ Compels you, yeah I could see this being a sort of novelty thing. Has the same effect as a newspaper and if this were put up for voting, I'd vote it a keep for the novelty aspect. No offence to those who are looking into the religious views of it. It's a small piece of wood. Simple as, not a godly weapon, but a novelty item. If anyone has a problem with this then why don't people have a problem with someone murdering someone else in a church, rather than waving a crucifix at someone. It'd open a lot more RP purposes. But my only beef with it is to lose the menacing waving, in favour of a mixture of blessings or generic pointing. Acoustic Pie 17:55, 6 October 2008 (BST)

Yeah, turn it into some kind of gesturing action -- for zombies, too -- then you might have a good idea! Just go easy on the religious talk, somehow -- with a very neutral phrase of some sort -- and it'd be workable. --WanYao 20:15, 6 October 2008 (BST)

I'll vote keep, but you would have to be VERY CAREFUL (bold and caps for extra emphasis ;))about the wording. Although I'm an atheist, the last thing I want is hordes of fundies emailing Kevan about how he is a infidel and God will smite him. Extreme example, but it does happen. I can't think of any alternate wordings myself, though. Linkthewindow 08:04, 7 October 2008 (BST)

I really do think the best solution is to make the text very bland. "You wave your crucifix at (target) for 0 damage" and "(attacker) waved a crucifix at you." (And maybe with the "How odd" attached to it. The "for 0 damage" gets the point across that God did not smite anyone with holy vengeance in any way whatsoever...but does so without beating people over the head with it, or blatantly drawing religion into the picture. Also, if you leave out the "menacingly" part, it's up to the interpretation of the player whether they're waving it to ward off evil, to bless the building, to evangelize, or to do whatever it is one does when they wave crucifixes around. --Jen 08:16, 7 October 2008 (BST)

I see Link's point about not having Kevan flooded with e-mails from fundies, and I hadn't thought of that. Looking at it now, I agree with everyone who's said that it would have to be neutral, and if this gets put to vote it will be without most of the flavor. I might keep the, "How odd," which was my favorite bit of flavor text. If anyone can think of flavor text that is religiously neutral, please post it! --William Told 09:13, 7 October 2008 (BST)

How about:

Someone waves a crucifix at you to gain your attention or: Someone waves a crucifix at you in a desperate fashion. How odd. Linkthewindow 15:10, 7 October 2008 (BST)

Why should there be anything other than "waves a crucifix at you"? Any kind of descriptive text beyond that unnecessarily restricts its use, while the type of waving can simply be expressed by talking. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 15:19, 7 October 2008 (BST)

I wonder if it would also be a good idea to change it from a crucifix to a religious symbol, that way current and future in-game religions could use it (i.e. cult of the crocodile, zombie jesus guys, Amish Liberation Front, I know the last 2 are gone but still...) --Silisquish 01:42, 8 October 2008 (BST)

As long as the text read something as neutral as "you gesture at "a zombie" with your crucifix" then I can't see how any sane person could object. You don't want to use religious iconography... just drop the damn thing and stop whinging. If someone else does, why the hell spoil their fun? --Honestmistake 18:13, 8 October 2008 (BST)

Are there any other ideas for this suggestion? I'll be adding it to the voting page pretty soon.--William Told 22:01, 9 October 2008 (BST)

Please do put it up for voting before it gets deleted from inactivity --Silisquish 02:32, 13 October 2008 (BST)

I like (attacker) waved a crucifix at you better than (attacker) waved a crucifix at you. How odd. because it's more neutral. Keep the former get rid of the latter. What kind of text will there be if you simply click on it? You stare at your crucifix and reflect on the meaning of life. or You stare at your crucifix and reminisce about life before the outbreak., or You stare at your crucifix and wonder if zombies go to Heaven. or You pray. or You grasp at your crucifix and try to think warm thoughts. or perhaps display one of these 5 flavour texts at random --Silisquish 19:48, 13 October 2008 (BST)

I like the flavor, but I think that suggestion should be separate from mine. It'll be hard to get this passed with absolutely no religious implications in any of the messages, and I don't want to include something that seems like it's part of another suggestion.-William Told 21:05, 16 October 2008 (BST)

This suggestion is currently up for voting --Silisquish 04:14, 17 October 2008 (BST)

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Current Talk

Damn, you removed the "How Odd" bit. That was my favorite bit of flavor text too :(. Linkthewindow ^Talk 11:23, 17 October 2008 (BST)

Mine too, but people thought it limited its use. :( --William Told 16:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

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History

I believe this is the first crucifix suggestion every that has passed peer review --Tjayh913 13:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)