UDWiki talk:Moderation/Policy Discussion/Locational Language & Interaction

Everyone packed up and died? Or is this policy unofficially dead? –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 15:30, 4 May 2006 (BST)

Looks like its dead atm. With those having an opinion being split almost down the center, we cant even get a consensus on what it means to be civil... ahh well I tried. I think there are too many people who don't understand the diffence in Freedom and License, nor the Five categories of speech not protected by the 1st amendment. but that's a discussion for another place and time. Conndraka 17:55, 4 May 2006 (BST)

This ain't specifically directed at you Conndraka, so please do not take it personally.

Americans and their vaunted constitution. How many times does it need to be said that it the American constitution is irrelevant on a website that is not hosted in your country. Frankly, this is what I really don't like about Americans; they think they're the centre of the world. America is not, and on any server in a country other than America, the 1st amendment of the American constitution cannot guarantee your rights beyond the mere possibility that the country the server resides in has laws that match yours. –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 05:09, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Everytime somebody says something like IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION! I get these urges to shove the texts of the 30 constitutions I have some knowledge off down their throath. Idiots. It's even more funny if the damn server is in the UK because: no constitution.--Vista ^W! 10:45, 5 May 2006 (BST)

*ahem* If I may? The well-known phenomena known as "American-centrism" has been well documented around the world. It seems to spring from the idea that America has "the bombs" (assumed to mean nuclear weapons, but rarely clarified by American-centrists). "The bombs" apparently give Americans the God-given right to assume control of any situation, whether it be military, Internet-based or otherwise. Followers of American-centrism also genuinely believe that God has specifically designated America as His policeman, and given it unlimited powers to enforce its his rule over the rest of the world. It would appear that American-centrism has infected this wiki, which isn't a surprise - all places are under threat, and it's just a matter of time before American-centrism has infiltrated all aspects of all cultures. Thank you, and good night. --Cyberbob240^{CDF - Arb - W!} 11:51, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Well, its not like its a bad culture or a bad constitution or a bad amendment. It just happens to be an American one. And no, it shouldn't be the basis of any rule decisions, it should be regarded as some sort of base towards a greater application. 'cause you can't really use the Canadian or British free speech rights, because they don't really have them promised to their citizens at all. --Karlsbad 12:54, 5 May 2006 (BST)

While the American constitution may have a fine section concerning free speech (I don't know if it does, being Australian), some people forget the fact that the vast majority of wiki users aren't American. No other countries follow the American Constitution. What we should do is come up with our own definition, based upon a mix of various countries' laws. That's what Wyndal and I have done with our pending Harassment policy, on the definition of harassment. --Cyberbob240^{CDF - Arb - W!} 13:02, 5 May 2006 (BST)

(In response to Karlsbad) While we (England, Australia, similar countries perhaps) do not have "guaranteed" rights by law, it might be prudent to note that the American consitution is breached daily. People do not abide by something just because it is law, (though it can encourage them to abide by it).

Despite having "guaranteed" rights, American citizens often have these rights violated. Just look at your prison system, particularily the female prison population. Corruption and humans rights abuses abound within those places, and your consitution does nothing. It's a piece of paper with a lot of good ideas on it that are often ignored and are utterly unenforceable anywhere else.

And you say it is not a bad culture? I swear to you, whatever good American culture has is heavily overshadowed by political corruption, incompetence and apathy. And for those assuming I'm specifically referring to Bush here, I'm not. He is an incompetent fuckwit, but there are precious few politicians left in America that actually represent the values they espouse. Not that Australia is any better mind you…

I'll stop here before I go ranting any further.–Xoid ^S•T•FU! 13:44, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Well said. Did you like my little speech on American-centrism? Both the term and the speech were made up on-the-spot. --Cyberbob240^{CDF - Arb - W!} 13:47, 5 May 2006 (BST)

A good analysis of the situation, both accurate and well written. The term American-centerism (yeah, I first saw the term being used by an American writing about American-centrism being a bad thing. Wonders will never cease.) is one I've seen used before, but it's a logical one. I may eventually copy this page to an archive under my handle. I'll wait and see if it deteriorates when others respond. –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 13:58, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Thanks for the compliment. The term's been used before? I've never heard of it, which I guess is a good thing from my perspective (shows I'm as smart as that American...is that hard though?). --Cyberbob240^{CDF - Arb - W!} 14:02, 5 May 2006 (BST)

(In response to Karlsbad) But countless other countries have, the US constitution is niether special or unique, It's merely one of the first, but that isn't that important, as a constitution is not as basic or needed for a country as USA citizens seem to think. the UK isn't the worse for not having a constitution and their people have relatively the same rights in public discorse. The constitution of the netherlands also garantees free speech, press, religion, etc. so why not use that one? I fail to see the importance of the constitution of the USA over all others. It just isn't that special.--Vista ^W! 14:07, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Oh yeah, the prison system sucks; in the current form it is crafted towards protection of the citizens outside of the walls rather than the rehabilitation of those inside it. A life sentence holds the same amount of protection to the public as the death penalty; and of course prisoners are not given the same rights, as they cease to be full citizens- they are not allowed to vote in elections as well, as they are a danger to society.
Anyway, I could name off a few territories such as Guam, Puerto Rico, and other Micronesian and Polynesian islands that use the American consitution at least in the same way the individual states do; an agreed-upon base upon which to build off of, if not poach entirely.
As to the American Culture; don't fall for the hype. I don't assume that Jaques Chirac's incompetence is an expression of French Culture any more then I use the American Political Theatre as an informer of American Culture. The American Culture is one of loud and heated discourse along side a hyper-compeditive and profit-driven atmosphere. It isn't correct, it is only important and powerful and pervasive. The constitution informs us in our actions and allows for this expression of culture to continue in an agreed upon manner.
So it is not that the American constitution is the only form of national rights that should be regarded- it is just that it accomplishes much in the way of creating a form of agreed-upon social norms. We have yet to quote a Netherland's document as it is not as well-known to the broader public and has yet to craft itself as more notable in its philosophy or methodology, so therefore we use the most utilitarian form we all can base our work off of. --Karlsbad 14:34, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Have you still not gotten it yet? People not from America disagree with using only the US Constitution as a basis for things. That's not to say that it can't be used; just that it can't be the only source for definitions etc. Read my speech above for why some people dislike America. Please stop proving me right. --Cyberbob240^{CDF - Arb - W!} 14:54, 5 May 2006 (BST)

I never said it was the basis, only that it was a common thread of knowledge; when we all say First Amendment, most Anglophone Internet-Using citizens of the Western World understand the meaning of the phrase; so it, sadly, is the basis that we must work to improve upon and define. It isn't that it is great; it is only what we can begin to work with, and then move on from there. It's seriously about 5 minutes worth of typing, tops, and then we skip ahead, using the accomplishments of the past to inform the work of the present. --Karlsbad 20:22, 5 May 2006 (BST)

(In Response to Karlsbad) "As to the American Culture; don't fall for the hype."… did you even think before you wrote that? American culture consists of a well entrenched middle class that is either generally oblivious to events outside the country, and many inside it, or decidedly apathetic about them. There is an upper-crust aristocracy that dominates the far right and always has. There is a lack of commonsense and accountability at every level. There is a lower class struggling to get anywhere due to a social security system that ranges from shoddily designed to non-existant. You have no healthcare if you cannot pay for it. Big business has many politicians in their pocket and minor parties cannot even begin to challange the two dominant forces in American politics.

There is the bible belt, filled with mostly hypocritical bible-bashers — Americans in the bible belt mostly range from Christian Fundamentalist to hardcore racist white supremacist. The FBI is both incompetent and corrupt. The government is both incompetent and corrupt. The population is largely ignorant and blissfully so. Don't talk to me about American culture. Most of what was there in the 80s and early 90s has been fully replaced by just what I am describing. There are exceptions, many of them. But these exceptions are dwindling in frequency at a rate that is frightening.

There is no left in American politics, and without checks and balances on both "wings" of politics the whole goddamned plane comes crashing down. That plane is America and it's already crashed. It's just that the survivors are still in shock, or are in denial.

The planet is going to hell in a handbasket, the inmates are running the asylum, and there is nothing that can be done bout it because the general populace of too many countries wants to be ignorant. I'll try to say nothing more of the issue because, as you can probably tell, I'm bitter. –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 15:15, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Wow. --Cyberbob240^{CDF - Arb - W!} 17:08, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Well an entrenched middle class is a fallicy in comparison to your assertion to there being no health care system; the chaotic nature of sickness and wellness means that a person can become whiped out financially by a cancerous tumor, or by an act of god such as, say, a Hurricane. A middle class supposes that, if this person was to become bankrupt, they would still get loans in comparison to the "criminal class". It could be argued, however, that the people most harmed by the health care are a fourth "working" class, above the "poverty" class but bellow both the "professional" class and the current Financial Aristocracy.
Of course the world is going to a hell in a hand-basket, but it isn't because an American wove the handle; even the greatest acheivement of world-wide environmental accords (the Kyoto Protocal/Agreement/Treaty, depending on translation) is torn into useless compromising BS so much so that an American would have to invest 80% of the work while China is given the pass to whipe out their forestry and therefore cause by global winds 20% (and growing) of the air polution in California. So Sure, lets blame the World's Capitulations that let the West's Companies fund the Chinese Businesses that Polute the Global Atmosphere that Dropped the Property Value of The House That Jack Nickleson Built. The UN is a Striving beast of mediocraty that doesn't screen its aid workers enough to have less than 40% of refuge volunteers be suspected of raping young vulnerable women, the World Court is a bastion of Litigious vendettas, and last I checked the Govern ments of the Third world are either in a state of near-collapse or have already done so.
But hey, lets complain about stupid white folk with a retarded accent instead, because lord knows if they got their views on television, the entire world would start to agree with them because they have that down-country charm. There has been idiocy in all levels of government for a long time. There has never been a time where the world was all hunky-dory here and America was the Shining City on a Hill for y'all pagan filth to look up at and gape.
What will happen if Americans actually stopped caring? As in cut their entire, substantial, Aid Budget to every single government, pull all the troops out of all the countries around the globe, and leave africans to their Starvation and Aids and Iraq to the growing (and promoted) civil war. Lets make ourselves truly ignorent of everyone and keep the A-Bombs ready, because we decided to lock the gates to our promised land.
You want change? Move here. Illegally, if you have to. See how much the culture sucks when you realize that you aren't drafted into the Children's Army. Look around and see how people who live here actually have methods to rise by merit rather than the Special School system of Western Europe; watch how marches here end with at worst Mexican Flag Waving and marches in Paris end with at best only a few burning cars.
But hey, lets bring up how fucked up the political system is; the right dominates and yet the world keeps turning. Almost as if it was nigh-insignifigant. The Walmart company is losing money while oil prices jump everywhere with a 7% global oil company profit rate per year, and yet Americans don't starve. They donate money to school PTA productions of 4th grade Shakespere, they work harder and longer than anyone else save the employed portion of the japanese business class, and they sleep to the sound of NASCAR. And sometimes, just maybe, the people who were going to make money anyway slip a buck out of our wallet. Evil abounds. --Karlsbad 20:22, 5 May 2006 (BST)

well that was a hartfelt inspired defence. Unfortunatly, most of it is BS. Kyoto? guess on whose country demanded the most BS that undercut it? and didn't even sign it afterwards? using the rationale of it being useless is, shall we say: hypocritical? 80% of the work? Nope, not really, less then 25%, and less then the EU, although you do contribute more to the problem. 40% of aid workers suspected, well even if that figure wasn't from number's pulled from from the backside inc. like that last 80%, that's what you get for forcing the UN to use 3 world country soldiers from dictators, because none of the western world has any soldiers to spare, due to a couple of wars in the gulf?

Look around and see how people who live here actually have methods to rise by merit rather than the Special School system of Western Europe? Is that why the USA school system always come last in comparative studies? USA children know less then their European counter parts? Sure they work longer and harder then anybody else, unfortuneatly actual productivaty isn't part of that. And if you could name one case of 'Litigious vendettas' the world court took into court I will sure be impressed.

And please, please don't cut the aid budget, as the country that already donates the lowest percentage (0.17) of all developed nations to international aid, it would be such a shock to the world if we found out that you actually didn't care... I mean it's not as if the EU doesn't already pay about twice as much in development aid. I'm sure that the UN would be much further handicapped when they are suddenly allowed to do programs that work but are not based upon church work.

And yes retraction of your troops, I'm sure the Germans and South Koreans goverments would collapse in anarchy in a hart beat. And the move whould certainly not popular in Iraq? Actually I'm quite certian countries in africa whould be terrified for collapse if you withdrew there, fortunatly then, that you don't have troops there.

And no there is no Evil abound in the USA, but neither is it the shining beacon of all that is good, It is a country that except for it's size is just about average on the whole. There is nothing wrong with being just regular, but it certianly annoys the rest of the world when you talk shit about how much better the USA then us without anything real backing it up. OMG there were riots in paris! like that not happens every ten years both in paris and in the US. OMG that has so much influence on me, who lives in a country that doesn't likes french people either. You know whats sad about the USA, that not only do you hold up a country up for comparison that nobody here values highly either, you still look bad when you do. The usa is a nice country, I like it. But really, it isn't god gift to mankind, and it would be nice if people didn't try to force fed it to the rest of the world.--Vista ^W! 23:47, 5 May 2006 (BST)

Umm... might I say we're off the point? ;-) --Lucero Capell 00:38, 6 May 2006 (BST)

Your right, this might be best refered to speedy deletions--Vista ^W! 00:57, 6 May 2006 (BST)