User:Aichon/Other/Verbose Barricades

Verbose Barricades

Timestamp: —Aichon— 17:01, 27 June 2012 (BST)

Type: Game message

Scope: Barricades

Description: The game has various messages in it to help survivors identify forms of attack from threats other than zombies, such as messages saying when someone PKed another player, destroyed a generator, or tore down the last of the barricades. These are all necessary, since players are unable to respond to threats if they cannot identify them (shooting everyone is not a viable option). Unfortunately, one significant threat has been left out. The game currently has options to "Ignore all barricade messages" and "Observe demolition and rebuilding of loose barricades", but it does not have an option to report higher levels of barricading. As a result, it's possible for someone to overbarricade anonymously and without fear of retaliation. When done purposefully, it can be a very effective form of attack, since survivors are unused to fighting their own barricades and the game does not appear to be balanced around having to deal with large-scale overbarricading. I'm proposing a third setting to "Observe barricading beyond very strongly". For a quick example, if I raised the barricades from VSB to EHB, you would see the following if you had chosen to enable the option: Aichon raised the barricades, removing access from the street. (yesterday) Aichon raised the barricades. (yesterday) ...and again. To avoid spam, messages are only produced when barricades go from one level to another, such as HB to VHB, and the message about survivors being unable to enter only appears when barricading from VSB+2 to HB. Any messages presented by this option would be in addition to, rather than as a replacement to, the ones presented by existing options. EDIT 1: Added clarification regarding what happens to other messages. EDIT 2: Rephrased messages slightly, as per comments from Ross below.

Discussion (Verbose Barricades)

Thoughts? —Aichon— 15:21, 29 June 2012 (BST)

Not in favour. At all. Anonymous over-cading is a legitimate tactic for player-killers and death cultists alike, and the last thing the game needs right now is moves like this stamping down further on such perfectly valid dark arts. I've played survivor and dealt with over-cading, and yes, it's frustrating, but you just deal with it. Barricades are WAY over-powered for survivors, so the ability to over barricade (anonymously) is a minor, but useful, counter-weapon. --BOSCH 16:23, 30 June 2012 (BST)

I agree that overbarricading is a perfectly legitimate and useful tactic. Where I disagree is in the anonymity. Your arguments rightly justify overbarricading as a valid tactic, but they do nothing to justify the need for it to be kept anonymous. In every other form of attack I can think of in the game, anonymity is not provided, so I fail to see why it should be provided here. Overbarricading should be frustrating, but right now it is unnecessarily frustrating. —Aichon— 20:58, 30 June 2012 (BST)

Not in favor, either. The suggestion assumes that all overcading tactics are attacks, which they are not. Barricading policies were invented in meta and should stay that way. Often, survivior groups have conflicting opinions on barricade levels and often, players just don't know about barricade policies. In-game messages which imply that overcading is an attack would breed much in-fighting I believe. Also, as Bosch. Don't nerf PK and DC players, plox. ~ _{16:38, 30 June 2012 (UTC)}

Vapor, you're arguing points I agree with and had accounted for already, so I think I may have phrased things poorly. What I'm suggesting is simply that players have the option to be presented with additional facts so that they can decide for themselves whether or not an attack has occurred. Nothing more. I very intentionally phrased the messages so that they neither connoted nor inferred that any wrongdoing had occurred, and I only referred to overbarricading as an attack when it was "done purposefully". I never made the assumption that all overbarricading was an attack, nor did I do anything that would insert barricade plans into the game, since I wholly agree with you that those should exist solely in the meta-game. Essentially, all of your points are things I had already thought of and felt I had addressed, but clearly I did not do so adequately. Since this is Developing Suggestions, would you mind helping me to consider some revisions that might make those points clearer? As for DCists and PKers, as much as I love overbarricading, that's a preference on my part, and this isn't about me. —Aichon— 20:58, 30 June 2012 (BST)

I think I probably phrased things incorrectly as well and sounded rather accusatory. What I maen is that, by your reasoning, an in game message warrants an in game action. If I am a survivor and see that "ZombieX brought down the last of the barricades", I'd likely target that zombie at the first oppurtunity. If I am a zombie and I see the message "SurvivorX began to rebuild the barricades using a refridgerator", I'm likely to target that survivor as soon as possible. Now I don't doubt that you or another conciencious survivor might engage SurvivorZ, who raised cades above VSB++ in conversation about local barricade policy or treat them as a DC if that's appropriate, but your average Trenchie may not (and probably won't) be that polite. Basically, I think that no matter how its worded, it would incite innapropriate actions by a a rather wide cross-section of the game's population. ~ _{23:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)}

If I suggested that in-game messages always warrant responses, I apologize, since that is not my belief. For instance, there are messages for placing art pieces, Christmas trees, and museum artifacts in buildings, and some people choose to respond to those (e.g. the Philosophe Knights "educate" people who steal property from Centers of Learning), while most people do not. It's simply a matter of making the information available so that people can choose to act on it. And while I didn't mention it, I should think that this option would not be the default choice, meaning that your average trenchie would not be aware of who's barricading. Even if they were however, I fail to see how that is necessarily a bad thing. It's different, to be sure, and there may be a period of adjustment, but things would doubtless stabilize, as they do after any change. —Aichon— 02:46, 1 July 2012 (BST)

Here's what I think. Bosch and Vapor are completely focused on the disadvantages to PKers and DCists. They're not looking over those disadvantages to spot the advantages that PKers and DCists can use to use this addition to their advantages. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 21:31, 30 June 2012 (BST)

I really don't see many advantages that could be applied to PK and DC players aside from your blackmail example, and I think that's a bit of a niche tactic. Not something that I or may other PKers DCist that I know would employ. ~ _{23:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)}

There are always advantages to take advantage of. You just need to stop thinking normal and start thinking crazy. Remember, if it looks stupid, but works, it ain't stupid. ;) --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 00:32, 1 July 2012 (BST)

Winking emotes won't persuade the majority of us that your idea isn't crap. --BOSCH 01:01, 1 July 2012 (BST)

See, the difference between you and I, Bosch, is the way we think. Again, don't think simplistic. Sometimes, for an effective strategy, you gotta think outside the box, mate. If an idea looks like crap to you, but it works, then you can't really say it's crap, can you? Saying it's crap would imply that the idea does not work. Most of my strategies and tactics, mate, you might say it's crap, but they work, do they not? It might not be something you're used to, but they work, therefore, you can't really say they're crap. If Aichon's suggestion sees the light of day, I bet you I can come up with a strategy that works that takes advantage of this addition. So, Bosch. Don't say an idea is crap until you see it in action. As stupid as they may seem, you can't say anything if they work. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 02:05, 1 July 2012 (BST)

I'm actually in favor of it because it gives me plenty of incentive to blackmail people and groups. With something like this, a DC-ist can easily claim a pro-survivor group helped out with the pinata-ing of a building. For example, Skynet unintentionally helped Organization XIII pinata their HQ once by increasing the barricade levels (O13's HQ is an island, if you guys recall). An addition like this gives such DC-ist groups or groups that use DC tactics the opportunity to blackmail and lower the reputation of both pro-survivors and pro-survivor groups. Don't think normal, like what Bosch and Vapor are doing. Think crazy. ;) --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 17:30, 30 June 2012 (BST)

So, would this mean you see increasing and decreasing cades or would it just be when the cade level is raised? -- _{Org XIII} ^Alts 21:02, 30 June 2012 (BST)

Only increases. An initial version of this suggestion included an additional option to also observe decreases, but I removed it for the sake of keeping things focused. That said, your question made me realize that I forgot to account for the "Loosely" option that already exists. I'll add a clarification in a moment. —Aichon— 21:25, 30 June 2012 (BST)

I like it.... sometimes it is more important to know who is trying to block access than it is to know folks are chewing their way in! Saying it shouldn't be notified because it might compromise some play styles is like saying attacks etc should be anonymous--Honestmistake 23:12, 30 June 2012 (BST)

Similar suggestions have been made in the archives. One of the main arguments against it, from my recollections, is that it actually encourages PKing of "offenders". It potentially causes problems, given the metagame nature of barricade plans, and the fact that unintentional overbarricading is easy to do (especially for newcomers, or simply because someone else was also barricading in real time, when you put up that one piece too many) -- boxy 00:32, 1 July 2012 (BST)

Overbarricading certainly is easy, and there may be a period of adjustment while everyone gets used to that fact. Just as people acclimate to any other game changes, so too would they do so here. All this is doing is providing additional information so that people can make informed decisions. Nothing more. How they choose to act on the information available has been and will always be their prerogative, and is outside the scope of this suggestion. —Aichon— 02:46, 1 July 2012 (BST)

Good lord, I forgot how much this place begs for change but can't handle it when it comes. Anyways, I like the suggestion. It plays for both sides, as a PKer, DC, Zombie, etc. you can easily tell if there are and who the active re-builders are and target them(as you should correct?). It is balanced because it helps survivors see recurring offenders or the misinformed.

Next, you all are jumping to the conclusion that this will cause people to kill others at the drop of a hat. How many times have you seen someone get PKed and not really cared to search for the offender? Point proven.

Lastly it's just common sense, if someone tears off a sheet of drywall or drags a refrigerator across the room to build a barricade your going to notice. Just like you notice when someone jumps out a window or sets up a generator.        17:56, 2 July 2012 (BST)

I prefer both Suggestion:20070704_Barricade_Alerts and Suggestion:20070901_View_Barricade_Level_Increase --Ross^lessness 18:22, 2 July 2012 (BST)

What about them do you like, specifically? I see flaws in both, but I'm curious why you prefer them. I'm rather fond of the wording of the messages used in your first link, and may appropriate that for this suggestion. —Aichon— 18:49, 2 July 2012 (BST)

Oh yeah, totally the wording. --Ross^lessness 19:29, 2 July 2012 (BST)

I like this, but it'd probably be Duped were it taken to voting due to the numerous suggestions in this vein already. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 18:34, 2 July 2012 (BST)

If the ones Ross linked are any indication, there are sufficient differences. For instance, neither of the ones he linked is optional, meaning that the spam arguments lobbied against them would not apply here, and both of them present messages both for increasing and decreasing the barricades, whereas this one does not (I don't believe survivors should have in-game help in seeing barricades going down). Also, the first one he linked only applies at the border between VSB and HB, whereas this one extends to EHB. —Aichon— 18:49, 2 July 2012 (BST)

I like this idea, since it only shows cades going up. What minimal problems it creates for PKers/DCist is more than compensated by the likelihood that survivors will spend more AP warning and/or killing offenders and less AP actually fixing the problem. While it does also offer a way to inform new or just unknowing players of the suggested cade levels. -- _{Org XIII} ^Alts 22:26, 2 July 2012 (BST)

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