UDWiki talk:Administration/Sysop Archives/J3D/2008-07-13 Promotion

J3D's moaning

(This title brought to you by The Grimch at 11:04, 28 July 2008 (BST))

Well, i tried twice to get boxy to discuss this issue, but it appears he doesnt have either the time or inclination to discuss it with his fellow crat. As such, im going to have to take action again, unilaterally. Though before i do, i shall explain that this is more a fault of the system, rather than anything else.

As you probably well know, we have only two proper crats. Kevan is a third, but he has stated he has little to no interest in proceedings on this page. Unfortunately, in any system where we have two people with a casting vote in the matter, it means that they must both be in agreement over a promotion, lest one just promote his buddies to positions of power, and they could simply overrule each other and cause a huge mess. In places where there are disgreements between two parties, the best course of action is to change nothing. Thus, in these cases, a single against "vote" from one of the paired applicable crats is sufficient to veto the promotions process on any bid. This would be easily fixed by appointing a third crat, as i have suggested and supported in the past (And indeed, do still support). I do not know what Boxys opinion on this bid and issue will be, but i do know mine.

So, now onto the meat of this. Application Unsuccessful due to a number of reasons, which i shall again take the time to explain.
J3D has stated his goals. What he hopes to acheive and where he would act. Specifically A/VB "reform" and ruling on A/VB.
J3D is an average user. However he has, especially in the last three-four months, become an extremely active shit disturber on A/VB. Blatantly ignoring the page guidelines, posting his comments on the main page repeatedly, often in openly antagonistic and disruptive manners that shows he has little to no respect for guidelines. A more blatant example is provided below:

J3D said:

This comment is relevant to this vandalism report. kekekekeke--J3DSR! 14:46, 21 June 2008 (BST)

(Source, from last month)
On top of this, he has repeatedly engaged in acts of vandalism against another member of this community. The fact that said member of this community is a proven zerger is entirely immaterial. The rules, and the protections they afford to the users of this wiki, must apply to everyone or they are entirely without meaning. This is a very important concept, and one J3D does not appear to have grasped. It merely goes to demonstrate further that he has little respect for the guidelines, which he must adhere to and, most importantly, uphold as a member of the sysop team.

Also, two months ago he made the rather foolish assumption that poor form is equal to bad faith Source. Another source to cast doubt on his judgement is this incident from last month Link.

As for "reforming" A/VB, there is no need to be a sysop to do that. All one needs to do is write up a policy regarding it, and hope like hell it will pass. And in response to those who feel that promoting him would get him to clean up his act: It would be far better for him to clean up his act beforehand. If he can clean up his act, he should do it now, instead of following his present pattern of escalating disruption.

Given all these glaringly obvious, and more importantly recent events in his history, i cannot in good conscience permit him to be promoted at this time. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 14:41, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Shame i had to wait 2 weeks to hear that, hardly unexpected. My main quarrel with what you wrote (apart from the irrelevant rant on the third crat) was that i think poor form = bad faith. I don't. However i think that a user on the wiki who is acting beyond what your average user would do (clearing up suburb pages) should have a fair idea of what he's doing. I also think that a warning (which you seem to be forgetting is what it is) is a good way to let someone know that clearing all the groups of a suburb page apart from the one's you like is not acceptable ocrat) was that i think poor form = bad faith. I don't. However i think that a user on the wiki who is acting beyond what your average user would do (clearing up suburb pages) should have a fair idea of what he's doing. I also think that a warning (which you seem to be forgetting is what it is) is a good way to let someone know that clearing all the groups of a suburb page apart from the one's you like is not acceptable on this wiki. All that is fairly irrelevant and i don't understand why you brought it up, so we disagree - big deal.

More response rant - i have never (seriously) used the finis is a zerger excuse as reason for my vandalism against him. To say that is to totally undermine me and go out of your way to be an asshole. In fact if you'd care to scroll up and actually read what i wrote in my bid you'd see that i addressed the finis issue stating that i intend to avoid him (where possible) on the wiki and that if i was to vandalise him i would be suprised if i wasn't demoted. Once again, the whole zerger thing is irrelevant. I hated him since before he zerged :P

Finally despite the fact that it no longer has any value, boxy i'd like to see your opinion and reasons of me being promoted. Despite being rejected in the face of a sysop drought it was definately an enjoyable process. See up the top of the bid for heartfelt speech.--xoxo 07:25, 28 July 2008 (BST)

I didnt say that you thought you could do it because finis was a zerger, i was putting that out because some people forget that arseholes are also entitled to protection from the rules. Ive been bitten by this is the past, where people have not granted me the assumptions they grant others. The most obvious such case is the one where Vantar was involved. So please refrain from your feeble minded slanders. Also, if you examine the case in question, there were some very valid reasons for removing those groups, so your accusation that it was just groups he didnt like falls flat on its face in an expanding pool of fail, especially when you consider the edit summary of the disputed edit. Also, a warning is a vandalism escalation. They do not get issued willy nilly. Cases and escalations should be the same regardless of their current escalation status. People should not be treated lightly simply because they are on a half dozen escalations, nor should they be treated harsher for having none. Your failure to grasp this basic concept of fairness is yet another factor that would have considered against any decision against promoting you had i known about it at the time.

In conclusion: Quit your whining and grow the fuck up. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 11:00, 28 July 2008 (BST)

Ahh 'grow the fuck up' - that addresses all my concerns, thankyou.--xoxo 23:34, 28 July 2008 (BST)

Ah, ignoring the rest of what was said. How unfortunately typical. As for this discussion, it goes on talk. The only reason the bid have yet to be archived is because boxy just plain isnt around. If he doesnt show within two days ill archive it without him. That said, it is indeed closed, and thus any discussion regarding it should take place on the talk page, instead of the main page. It will be archived into the bids talk page when the archive is created, no sooner. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 02:51, 29 July 2008 (BST)

Tallies(Portion Relevant to Bid)

Current Tally 18 Vouches; 10 Against; 7 Abstained 06:53, 24 July 2008 (BST)

Actually, Conndraka...read my opinion and all the REs on it. I've changed my opinion from Against to Abstain, so really, it's 12 Vouch, 10 Against, and 6 Abstains... --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 00:00, 17 July 2008 (BST)

Fixed. However, strike out your old vote if you change it, please. --WanYao 02:52, 17 July 2008 (BST)

I feel as if the decision on Jed is a little pathetic. We need a system in place where the promotion of our System Operators does not rely totally on the thoughts of one person. Either boxy get your fucking act together, you don't deserve your position if you don't perform the tasks required, or we get a third active 'crat and make it a three way vote. Failure to participate in tasks should be a demotion. Also, I don't think that there is a point to the vouch system, basically proven with Jeds nomination. I have thought all these thoughts for a while, just never been compelled to speak of them until now.--CyberRead240 14:55, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Wait huh? You said that you can't argue with the points Grim brought up but it's wrong that Grim won't agree to promotion of J3D because of them?--Karek^maps?! 15:03, 27 July 2008 (BST)

No, I agree with Grim, I just don't think boxy deserves to be a 'crat if he can't get his act together when he is asked to, especially in this situation, which is his most important job of all. My other point was that the vouching system was irrelevant. Grim made his decision, which I agree with, and while I'm sure the community review was helpful, I believe that Grim would have come to the same conclusion without it. I never intended for it to sound like the decision was wrong, I meant the system, I just worded it poorly.--CyberRead240 15:07, 27 July 2008 (BST)

No, the community discussion is, indeed, useful. In this case however i went out and did quite a bit of research on my own. Some of which was guided by the discussion here as to certain problem areas. If he was just having problems on suburb pages, or his own pet project, or suggestions, thats fine, but he was disrupting administration pages. The extent of which completely escaped me until such time as i had done a complete review. The problem is that you percieve this as some form of vote, where anyone with a majority of vouches can get through, regardless of fitness. This is not the case. Its not simply a crat making a decision, but a crat making a decision based on solid evidence and deductive reasoning based on that evidence. I did my research prompted by several of the against votes, found numerous glaring holes, and waited for those in favour of the bid to provide something on their own that counteracted all this. It never materialised. And dont pretend that you didnt have warning. I posted pretty much this same explaination on Boxy's talk page yesterday in order to inform him of my intentions, and give him ample time to respond. You agreeing with my decision, while at the same time attacking it, is rather disingenuous. Altogether very petty, and a classic example of shit disturbing for the sake of shit disturbing. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 15:20, 27 July 2008 (BST)

It's Grim's attempt at discussion that's pathetic here. Yesterday he essentially posted "You can find me on IRC" on boxy's talkpage and less than 24 hours later posted his decision. Looking at boxy's contributions it looks like he hasn't even been active during that time. Promotions are not a matter of life and death, so there is absolutely no hurry. The two weeks is the time for the community to voice their opinions, not the deadline for the decision. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 15:24, 27 July 2008 (BST)

I had previously encouraged him to work with me, three days ago in fact (He has certainly been active since then). Instead of doing so he merely carried on with his whining on the promotions page about the roosters bid. The guidelines of this page state: "Once the two weeks are up, the Bureaucrat will review the community discussion and make a decision based upon it." I reviewed the community discussion. I made the decision. Dont like it, take it to A/M but you'll be torn a new one. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 15:37, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Sigh, no Grim, I do agree with your decision, I do not think anything is wrong with your decision. I am glad you made it and I understand your situation etc etc. I know and understand the procedures necessary and by no means do I think the number of vouches is a be all and end all decision. I am not opposing you in any way. You posted your decision, and within minutes I had replied supporting it. I then moved to the discussion page to prompt a discussion on the whole situation. For some reason you have seen this as some sort of personal attack, and I can't see why you have, really. I never questioned you, or your decision making. I questioned the fact that you had to make this decision on your own, without another crat. For fucks sake I was supporting your decisions AND your criticism of boxys actions.--CyberRead240 16:01, 27 July 2008 (BST)

If i had seen what you were doing as some form of personal attack, you would very well know it. I have a tendency to retaliate rather forcefully. This is just me expressing my opinions in my standard blunt, abrasive manner. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 16:11, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Still, you didn't actually try to contact him (just told him how to contact you), and then went straight ahead when boxy didn't contact you either. No, it's not misconduct, just bad form. And as you can read yourself, the text says "once two weeks are up", not "three days before two weeks are up", nor "one day before two weeks are up". The two weeks are for community discussion, after that comes crat discussion and decison. And yet again, there is no good reason to hurry with these. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 16:05, 27 July 2008 (BST)

That WAS me contacting him. I only know of one way to get in touch with him. This wiki. So stop making shit up. And discussion can occur beforehand, especially at the tail end of a bid when everyone who wants to have a say usually has already had a say, and then make any last minute alterations if need be if someone comes up with something brilliant. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 16:09, 27 July 2008 (BST)

But the fact that it was so hard to contact him in the first place/his inability to perform the tasks at hand is what I was getting at in the first place Grim. It shouldn't be done this way. There should be three 'crats who are ALL required to make a ruling, or face misconduct/demotions.--CyberRead240 16:12, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Sorry, I'm a bit tired today :/. Yes, you did contact him, but what's the use of contacting him if you're not going to wait for a response? --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 16:50, 27 July 2008 (BST)

I waited three days. After two days i tried again, this time offering an opinion. He was active within that timeframe and instead chose to continue bitching in The Roosters promotions bid regarding my alleged unilaterality there rather than doing anything constructive. He completely ignored the message on his talk page. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 16:53, 27 July 2008 (BST)

No, you waited two days for him to contact you, then contacted him and and waited less than a day. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 17:01, 27 July 2008 (BST)

No, i contacted him in the hopes of striking up a discourse on the matter. I then took it a step farther when i grew tired of him not answering. Now, as for what i was doing, who would know better what my intentions are? You or I? --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 17:04, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Can't really see much trying-to-strike-up-a-discourse going on in there. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 18:15, 27 July 2008 (BST)

I was subtle, but it was a chastisement directed towards him that would, under ordinary circumstances (Ordinary being him not vanishing for days or having tantrums elsewhere) have resulted in a discussion on the issue, J3D's bid inclusive. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 19:04, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Here's a question, why does any of this matter? Where is the relevance to this drama and what is it contributing other than personal animosity?--Karek^maps?! 16:13, 27 July 2008 (BST)

Personally, I wanted Grim to understand that I was supporting him, and understanding of the toughness of the situation he is in without the help of his other "crat". On a more official level, I really want to see a movement for a better system. I really think another crat is in need. If I wasn't studying atm I would try to devise some sort of policy, but hopefully this conversation will arouse someone else to do it for me :P--CyberRead240 16:17, 27 July 2008 (BST)

The system currently (regardless of how you feel about it) is a veto system. Grim says no, so it's no. Yeah i wanna hear boxy's opinion but i really really can't imagine boxy being able to sway grim at all, even if he did change his mind he doesn't strike me as the type to admit it.--xoxo 07:51, 28 July 2008 (BST)

Well, that just shows how little you pay attention. Ive made several mistakes over the last few days, and when i realised these i apologised and corrected the issue. Move Requests has a pair of fine examples. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 13:00, 28 July 2008 (BST)

If I was boxy I would be really pissed at most of you. It's nice how you all seem to think that boxy wouldn't express his opinion if it differed from Grim's. Maybe boxy is just letting Grim be the "heavy" here and trying to be nice to J3D's feelings. Or would you rather both Crats come out and say J3D is a fuck up that shouldn't have any authority or power? I'm sure if boxy really thought denying the promotion was wrong he would come out and say that no matter how much time had passed (if he was inactive while Grim posted the "results"). Just because some of you users seem to think you are "bullied" by Grim it doesn't mean every one thinks that. It's so annoying seeing this petty little bitchfest target that many of you have posted on Grim ready to jump in and gripe about everything from his spelling to his opinions. Just realize he isn't going anywhere and all you are doing is wasting your time.--– Nubis ^NWO 14:10, 28 July 2008 (BST)

Actually yes, i would like to hear what boxy's opinion is. I have absolutely no false expectations and any user that accepts a promotion should be willing to have their "feelings" crushed. Also i love the move requests example, my favourite bit is probably where you went off at DDR in at least 3 seperate posts...--xoxo 07:53, 29 July 2008 (BST)

I don't think complaints about the system will go far here. And all the arguments that have come after J3D being rejected are silly, and to be honest, I don't think using J3D's rejection as a spark to light this long-seeded fire is a particuarly timely thing to do. Might I remind us all the state we were in when we put J3D's promotion forward? What I am trying to get at is, in my opinion, using J3D's rejection as a means to bring about the awareness of the system's flaws just doesnt really hold water. And yes, I was startled too when Grim so quickly apoligized for his mistake in the above example. Can't we just move on from what's been done and focus on the future? DanceDanceRevolution 13:50, 28 July 2008 (BST)