Talk:Dr. schwan’s Research and Development Team/PK database

Heather In Ale ID: http://www.urbandead.com/profile.cgi?id=680413 Heather In Leather ID: http://www.urbandead.com/profile.cgi?id=669062

You can use this to lookup any UD profile using the name btw: http://profiles.urbandead.net/index.php

--Funkster 20:08, 9 June 2010 (BST)

What a supreme load of poo poo!

I, ZombieGeorge, am a dedicated zombie. I am dedicated to devouring every last breather in Malton, and in Whittensdie in particular. Yes, I am a very evil fellow, but that doesn't mean that I don't play by some very specific rules. One, I don't PK, not even if combat revived (the exception being LIVE combat, which has happened only once in five or so years. It was hella fun). Two, I don't play nice with any harmanz- ever. I do not cooperate with pker's, death cultists, or anyone else who is not a zombie. Get your facts straight.

You suggest a connection between Heathers and FU. Whatever. I don't really pay any mind to other groups unless they put themselves on the menu (harmanbahrgarz!). What other FU do is not my concern, unless they are doing something that inhibits my freedom of action to have fun by killing and eating all harmanz or is violating UD's TOS. Remember, the FU is not a hierarchical group. We are a loose confederation of zombies who share information and undead comradery.

Do you feel that I've singled you out for extra special zombie nibblinz? You should. One, You came into my home (Whittensdie) and spammed the wiki with all manner of self aggrandizing crapola. That's like begging me to come and eat your brains and drag the remains out into the street to feed my friends. Two, you are a filthy harman. Three, you took up residence in Colglough, my favorite building. Four, you are a filthy harman. Five, you invited other filthy harmanz to come to Whittensdie, which doesn't belong to you. Six, and I really can't stress this point enough, you are a filthy harman.

Oh, and by the way, if you are irked about my picking you out of the revive queues and infecting you, don't take it personally. I do that to everyone. It's a cheap way for me to grief harmanz and cause them to waste more AP. Actually, check that, if it bothers you, by all means take it personally. :D

I get really sick of harmanz lobbing the "pker" label around at anyone who gives them a rough time. I am a proud zombie. I don't need guns to mess you up. My cadaverous claws and infectious smile are more than up to the task! If you doubt the veracity on my statement, please note that I, and my zombie pals, have spent more time in Colglough over the last six months or so than you have. :D

Gragh!

-ZG Zombiegeorge 20:43, 16 July 2010 (BST)

As to your objection to your placement on our database, I apologize if you take offense, but I would like to justify why you are there. It is not because you infect people in the RP; this is a standard griefer tactic and I have come to expect it: particularly of you and ZombieCharlie. Nor have you been placed here for singling out my group. I expect that local zombies hate us and I admit you have good reason. Not only are we “filthy harmanz,” we are “filthy combat revivers” and you are one of the many in that area who lacks the commitment to your cause to succumb to brainrot.

For clarification, you are not mentioned as a PKer on this list, you are mentioned as an associate of PKers. I recognize and respect that, though you have had the opportunity to PK me and my group on many occasions, you have not: instead reverting to zombie form and biting us as science intended. Nor do I suggest a connection between the FU and the Heathers as I am well aware that the FU is a loosely organized bunch of free-thinking zombahz. I suggest that there is a connection between CERTAIN MEMBERS of the FU (of which I believe you are one) and the Heathers.

Now to the reason you are on this list. On several occasions you were observed strike buildings in Whittenside as part of coordinated attacks with Heather Manslaves. You were present in almost all of these attacks and often one of the first through the door. The timing and frequency of these attacks suggests that the probability of coincidental cooperation is very low. You in specific were singled out for an incident in the Allsop building a few months ago when we had sealed ourselves inside. With the barricades set at EHB and no freerunning path, the building was altogether inaccessible. You were in human form at the time, and through a fortuitous screen refresh by one of our members, we were able to observe you reduce the barricades to VSB and come inside. You left immediately, reducing the barricades no further in an attempt to let in zombies, and a heather Manslave arrived within 5 minutes to kill us. Others followed shortly thereafter to finish the job. Though I had suspected a connection, this clenched the argument and you were added to this list.

If you are unaware of this connection, I apologize for bringing it to your attention in this way. It is possible that some other person with whom you share information is in direct contact with the Heathers. It is also possible that you are in contact with them, and it is further possible that you have a Heather ALT. I make no assumptions in this regard because in effect, it does not matter. The fact remains that, for whatever reason, it seems that they know what you know. You are therefore connected.

As to our “spamming of the wiki” I further admit that this may be irksome. Upon request, I have taken things down in all sections of the wiki with the exception of Colglough. I would like to stress though that the additions that have our name on them are few compared to the edits that do not. In our time in Whittenside, we have attempted to add flavor to the community through such additions. They have included information geared towards Ferals, organized zombies, military survivors, scientists, and others. We have even made some edits to benefit PKers. The vast majority of these, including the bit on the fort that Spiderzed and I wrote, do not in any way reference me or my group. I will not take down material in Colglough unless an admin requests it because colglough is a scientific facility, we are scientists, we wish to use it, and no previous or subsequent attempt has been made on the wiki to dedicate it to any other purpose. Had there been such when I arrived while Whittenside was a ghost town, I would have moved into another building.

Rest assured, I do take your actions personally because they are personal, but I understand them and bear you only a little malice for them. I hope that you will extend me the same courtesy when I next combat revive you and dump you to the street. In the interim, please tell Priapus that this “filthy Harman” sends his regards: I do not doubt but that at some point he may find himself on this list.

Yours in science,

-- Albert Schwan  22:00, 16 July 2010 (BST)

Re-retort

you are one of the many in that area who lacks the commitment to your cause to succumb to brainrot.

--Brain rot is not a commitment, but a lifestyle choice. I choose to play a more flexible game that includes parachuting and vandalism as the mood strikes me. That is my choice. It's not yours to decide what is or isn't barhah for me.

I suggest that there is a connection between CERTAIN MEMBERS of the FU (of which I believe you are one) and the Heathers.

--I am very much a member of FU. There may be a connection(s) between Heathers and FU. Some of use play harman alts. I know of a few that even play dedicated survivor alts, which I think is a little perverse, but that's just me.

Now to the reason you are on this list. On several occasions you were observed strike buildings in Whittenside as part of coordinated attacks with Heather Manslaves. You were present in almost all of these attacks and often one of the first through the door.

--Yer high, Muriel. I have NEVER coordinated any FU attack with any harmans -- ever. Yeah, I am usually the one the first in the door. In any attacks I organize, I usually take out the barricades and step in to infect or meat-shield for other zombies. If the Heathers entered the building during an FU dinner party, we'd have eaten them too.

You in specific were singled out for an incident in the Allsop building a few months ago when we had sealed ourselves inside. With the barricades set at EHB and no freerunning path, the building was altogether inaccessible. You were in human form at the time, and through a fortuitous screen refresh by one of our members, we were able to observe you reduce the barricades to VSB and come inside. You left immediately, reducing the barricades no further in an attempt to let in zombies, and a heather Manslave arrived within 5 minutes to kill us. Others followed shortly thereafter to finish the job. Though I had suspected a connection, this clenched the argument and you were added to this list.

--That's pretty funny. I have no recollection of that, but I might have done that out of curiosity to see who was hiding in there. Yeah, I would have left if I was short of AP and was unable to do anything more with the barricades. I certainly wouldn't have hit you with the ax -- that wouldn't be very sporting. I may left to jump off a building or vandalize some buildings. I like spray paint.

If you are unaware of this connection, I apologize for bringing it to your attention in this way. It is possible that some other person with whom you share information is in direct contact with the Heathers.

--That point is very easy to explain, Albert (if I may call you Albert). There is a fair chance that, in that instance, I would have posted your whereabouts on our forum -- which is publicly accessible -- so others might come and eat you. I know that The Fortress and other harman groups come by our forums to see what we are up to, so I see no reason why Heathers would be any different in that regard. That might explain why you would see Heathers show up after an Feral picnic. You and any other survivors would be listed in the post. :shrugs:

As to our “spamming of the wiki” I further admit that this may be irksome.

--Indeed. It certainly got my attention. Priapus nearly blew a gasket. Never the less, we have a very long history with Whittensdie and consider it our little club house and will resist any attempts by harmanz to come and clean up the place. We like nice it and trashed.

--Please take me off your Heathers/PKer list. I do not help them and I take your slanderous suggestion that I'd help or work for harmanz as being tantamount to calling me a traitor and a collaborator. You are food. One does not befriend food.

-ZG Zombiegeorge 02:54, 17 July 2010 (BST)

George (I hope I may call you this as we are now on familiar terms),

I appreciate the response that you have given and find it admirable that you did so in an organized and logical way. I ascribe to the belief that conversation is more fruitful than pent up rage; your willingness to converse in this matter has resulted in the removal of your name from my list. Reviewing my evidence you must, however, admit that it was fairly damning; not so damning as that which we have obtained on Father Guido Sarducci, but damning. Incidentally, this was during what I can only assume was a death-culting phase for you, as I was able to observe by my contacts list that you stayed alive for quite some time after we combat revived you (I must admit I found this curious).

Upon reviewing your explanation of events and experiencing your single-minded hatred for harmanz (the Yer High Muriel comment aside) , I am satisfied that it is quite possible that the Heathers were piggybacking your attacks even though they arranged to strike first, killing many before you entered the building. As a proud zombie, I should think this fact (combined with the crass graffiti all over the suburb and the large number of bounty hunters they have brought to the area) would trouble you, but as you say, who am I to decide what is or isn't barhah for you. I suppose you must ask yourself, is your barhah about Bra!nz or Baragaz? Yet I digress; we were discussing the database not the suburb.

I will replace the entry with a note to the effect that any member of the FU active in meta-game communication may be considered a de facto link to the Heathers as the link between the two groups is very strong. Though this statement may still gall you, you must agree that it is correct. Your members work with their members (or their members work with your members if you prefer). They have historically singled out groups that have become troublesome to members of the FU (in fact I strongly suspect my disagreement with Priapus may be the reason they came). You (by which I mean segments of your group not you specifically) share membership, collaborate with, or at the very least have been infiltrated by them. Finally, at least one of your members (Sarducci) appears to actually be working FOR them. In all respects, I think you can see that the use of the term “a strong connection” is warented.

I will not hold this connection against you (by which I mean you personally) in future though I do believe that the fact that there is such a connection to your group is an ethical failing within the group as a whole. I realize that the loose structure makes it an unfortunately unavoidable evil and I have a few friends among the ferals myself (by which I mean actual friends not ALTs; I would not presume to intrude into your forum) but you must realize that association with a Pking, Zerging, wiki-trolling, forum-spying, Griefing group like the heathers weakens you integrity as group and I and many others will view you less respect because of it.

On a final note, I wish to address a point that you made in your original post about our presence in Colglough over the last 6 months. I appreciate that this was a jab but in the interest of fact checking, I thought you might be interested in a not-so -brief timeline that serves also to address the fact that, while your enmity is understood, your vilification of me is misguided. When first I moved to Whittenside and took up residence in Colglough in early January, I tried several times to establish good relations with the Ferals. I learned your language (something even many of you have not done), respected your boundaries, and even offered to cohabitate with you in Colglough. Had any of you asked me to move on I would have done so, though I realized this was not likely as most of you are working with a limited definition of zombie/human interaction and hordes do not ask. Many of the local zombies made light of my offer as they did not see what they stood to gain from friendly relations. Still, a few FU members took me up on this and visited frequently between the beginning of January and the end of March while I was constantly in residence. Before it fell in the spring Picnic, I had transformed Colglough into a center for communication and creativity and the home of my group. When we returned in April to retake Colglough, the more vocal members of the horde demanded respect while offering us none in return. While some of these zombies valued the struggle and the interaction, others (many others) just wanted to “win”: griefing survivors into leaving the suburb and salting the earth so that none would return. With little other option, we acquiesced to some of these demands for a time but the experience changed me. To this point, I had been Pro-Colglough but these actions by members of the FU caused me to become Pro-Survivor. I turned my attention to other survivor groups and began to see a survivor occupied Fort Perryn was essential to the balanced functionality of Whittenside. Towards this end, we helped survivor groups retake the fort and we retook Colglough, holding it from mid April into May, at which time we have reason to suspect, members of your group, frustrated by our actions, summoned the Heathers. In the time since, we have occupied Colglough for only days at a time and my pro-survivor stance has been cemented.

In whole, while you would be correct had you stated that you had been more at Colglough than I for the last two months, when speaking of the last six or seven, I have been more often in Colglough than out of it. A petty point I admit but one I felt I needed to make. I am glad we had this chance to talk and will set about correcting the database immediately. Until next we meet.

Yours in science,

-- Albert Schwan  05:17, 17 July 2010 (BST)

Re-re-retort

I will not hold this connection against you

-- Then please remove my name from that page altogether.

Gragh!

-ZG Zombiegeorge 07:41, 17 July 2010 (BST)

My apologies, I did not realize you were on here twice. I have corrected the issue. As forewarning, I may be adding you to this database in another capacity. You have been the death of more of our generators than anyone else in Whittenside. This counts as irrational violence and is within the purview of this database. Should that happen, you will be in a different section of the database and free from untoward association with “filthy harmanz”.

Yours in science,

-- Albert Schwan  21:17, 17 July 2010 (BST)

Retort Reform

Are you suggesting that I am a notorious GKer? If so, it's a fair cop.

Gragh!

-ZG Zombiegeorge 22:48, 17 July 2010 (BST)

And while we're on the subject

Father Guido here. While we're on the subject of libelous statements and defamation of character, I thought I'd stop by since I've been mentioned several times in your recent wiki posts. Perhaps it's time for us to have a little chat to clear a few things up.

.......share membership, collaborate with, or at the very least have been infiltrated by them. Finally, at least one of your members (Sarducci) appears to actually be working FOR them. In all respects, I think you can see that the use of the term “a strong connection” is warented.

No, I don't think using the term "a strong connection" is warranted at all. To begin with, I am Feral Undead. I am not a manslave nor do I take orders (or requests) from any group or individual, including the Heathers.

I work alone and my motivation for hunting you and your group has nothing to do with the Heathers and everything to do with your own behavior. I am, of course, referring to that can of undead worms you opened when you came into the FU's backyard (WhittensDIE) and began posting, pestering and taunting us on our wiki. You shouldn't be so surprised that you'd catch our attention. But I can only speak for myself and my own actions here, not for any other Feral Undead member. I don't mind telling you that I didn't care for your original wiki posts and your latest round of posts here isn't doing much to soften my mood toward you. In the beginning, all of the FU were on the lookout for you and your position was posted on the Feral Undead's open board. I haven't logged into that board in a while but there wasn't a need to - when you were spotted, your position was reported for all to see. After that it was fairly simple to keep up with you. I scouted. I have freerun and I have eyes. When you migrated, so did I. Is that really so difficult to understand?

What I see you doing is forcing your so-called data to fit your hypotheses about events and then spouting erroneous conclusions. That is not good science, Albert. Not every theory is a conspiracy and sometimes you just need to let the facts speak for themselves.

I take responsibilty for being a PKer. End of story. Fr. Guido Sarducci 01:13, 19 July 2010 (BST)

I would question how it was that I pestered you and whether or not you understand the concept of a wiki since you refer to it as “our wiki” but I do not care to. I think I will, as you say, let the facts speak for themselves. You wish to contest your inclusion on this list and to make other points. I am sorry Father Sarducci but on this issue I will not back down. The Feral Undead’s hatred of my group has been addressed on this page already, as has my defense of the words “a strong Connection”. I will not repeat myself by going into them further. That aside, your accusation of “bad science” is one that I cannot let pass. You indicated that I am quick to chalk things up to conspiracy: so be it, in this case I am well founded in my belief that I am right and supported by what facts you are comfortable enough to agree with. You admit that you are a PKer; very well then, you belong on this database. You object to being linked to the heathers. On the main database page, you are listed as a cooperating associate. You share information with them by posting it to areas where they obtain their information: the fact that this may be an open FU forum is beside the point. You seem to spend more time as a death-cultist than as a zombie: as your colleagues would put it, this is between you and your concept of barhah but it is suspicious. You have been spotted by our members sharing buildings with the heathers. You did not kill them even though they are responsible for more defacement of your suburb than my team could ever be. You are therefore a PKer who is selective in your killing unlike George who hates all harmanz equally. This means that you have at least an understanding with the heathers. While you may explain this as part of the honor among thieves policy, I would point out that this in itself is an alliance of sorts (an alliance that some PKer groups of note do not subscribe to). You attack the same targets as the heathers at the same time as the heathers. You may explain this as George has, but unlike George, you are on the same side of the barricades. You did not begin to attack us until they did; in fact, you spent some time peacefully in Colglough in the early portions of the year unless I miss my recollection. These facts together make my statement that you are an associate the result of a hypothesis backed by observable facts. If your objection is centered on my statement that you APPEAR to work for them, I will admit that this is a hypothesis, but one I am unwilling to abandon. I would further add that it appears on a talk page and not on the page itself: the appropriate place for a hypothesis. This is based on the fact that the agents of the Heathers with whom you cooperate are agents who claim to work FOR the Heathers themselves. Add to this the idea that you style yourself after a dated Saturday Night Live Character and you are in keeping with their standard tacky manslave MO. On a personal note, I would suggest that if you do not want it to appear that you are working for them, do not act like you are working for them. And next time you question my science come with more than righteous indignation. George treated this matter with an air of civility despite his frequent jabs at me; you sir did not and deserve none in return.

-- Albert Schwan  03:56, 19 July 2010 (BST)

Note that regularly spending time breathing and death-culting isn't something unusual in FU. Of all major hordes but actual dedicated death-cults as RDD and Batshit Insane, FU has the most liberal stance on death-culting and leaves it completely up to their members if and to what extent they use it. In fact, my own death-cultist has spent his better time of the last fort siege breathing, as he could aid the fall of the fort better that way. It was plainly coincidence that he got CRed after Colglough NT was already doomed by regular FU re-ruinings and Heather PKing raids, or else he would have attacked it as well. (And possibly ended up in the database as well just for his target selection.)

There is no official link between FU and the Heathers. In fact, the Heathers have (very rarely) come to the _Outside Lane_ of our forums for things that deserve the attention of the whole community, such as pointing out and hunting down text-rapists in our area.

While the Heathers have originally popped up in the fight with FedCom at the same time that FU was engaged with them, it must be taken note of the fact that FedCom was a highly unpopular group that not only had plenty of enemies, but also negative attention throughout the PKer community and plenty of fellow survivor groups who were ticked off at their attitude. While individual FU members might have had a motivation to form the Heathers group with alts, the same might be said of most other zombie and PKer groups at that time, as well as ticked off survivor groups, for who there would have been the added benefit of not getting the PKer actions associated with their survivor activities.

My personal hypothesis is that they have been an joint effort by well-connected members of multiple groups to take down FedCom under a shared umbrella with no traces to their main alts, and that that joint effort sticked around afterwards to take down other worthy selected targets. While FU members might have had alts in Heathers (and some of them might still be around), they most likely haven't been the major faction. The Heathers shine in cooperation for things as scouting, internal revives and attacking en masse in dark buildings to set off attack penalties, something that can't be said at all of FU (who do 99% of their cooperation in public, and use tighter co-ops as timed strike-teams only with small teams of volunteers on short term). For Heathers leadership, I'd rather look at PKer groups of that time that have shown that they can use tight coordination. -- Spiderzed▋ 14:21, 19 July 2010 (BST)

Let me first address the hotness of tone shown in my last post. To the readers of this page, I would mention that I regret the mode of that communication; Sarducci managed to do something unique: he got me upset. I do not apologize to Sarducci as I feel he deserves every ounce of my vitriol. To the note at hand. I thank you for drawing that to my attention. I did not mean to malign death-cultists. It is a legitimate tactic. Sarducci is not a death-cultist; he is a self admitted PKer. Even this is not entirely offensive but for the fact that he is rude.

I also thank you for the statement about the probable origin of the Heathers. I will have to look into this more fully. I was of the belief that the Heathers are likely connected to other PKer groups but my evidence primarily suggests that they have a bad reputation within the PKer community as well. While I am sure some this is because of their use of zerg scouts like XTREME Josh Clark and Dr. Albert Schwan, others I am lead t believe object to their style. Part of the information I collected on them was gleaned from Philosphe Knights kill lists. Regarding the other part of this note, lest things get out of hand between us and the Feral Undead I would once more stress that the connection to the FU I list on this database is a static thing. By which I mean that I have come to understand that the FU as a larger organization neither created it nor cultivates it. Likewise it is clear that you do not discourage it. Such is not technically your responsibility. The fact remains that it exists. There are several members of the FU who are upstanding citizens on the wiki and in game, but with an organization as large as yours, it is necessary also that there are some who are not. Among this latter portion are, I suspect, those who know the Heaters or are the Heathers. Whether or not this suspicion is proved true, the purpose of the database is to inform and in the interest of information it should be noted that anything the FU knows and posts to their forum, the Heathers will know.

As to our apparent enmity, I can only speak personally and say that I do not and have never borne your group ill will. I moved here to study you. I expect to be targeted and at this point I expect to be prioritized highly on your list of people to eat. What I do not want to happen is I do not want you to be made miserable by my presence (unless of course combat revives make you miserable in which case you are playing the wrong game). I find the practice of Griefing distasteful. I am still unsure as to the edits that have so frustrated you. The MOB asked that certain edits be taken down and they were. The wiki is common property, despite Sarducci’s statement, and all of my efforts have been good faith attempts to improve it. Should they fail in doing this, let me know and we will reach an agreement. That is also the function of the wiki and I am somewhat gratified that this page is pulling some veteran players onto the wiki for the first time.

The entirety of the Heathering we have received has only aided us in doing just this. They are blight on the face of Malton that often goes unrecognized. We were not aware of them until they targeted us. To expose them for what they are is in the best interests of the game community as a whole. This statement is opinionated, but I would remind you that it is placed within a group namespace. In some, My group has no personal problem with the FU, the MOB, PKers, or Death Cultists. We have only a professional problem with the Heathers. I have a problem with Sarducci because of his comments towards me but for no other reason.

I hope this will close the book on some of this, but if bad blood refuses to give way a more professional level of interaction, you may see me on your forum to continue this discussion.

Yours in science,

-- Albert Schwan  20:34, 19 July 2010 (BST)

Good thing I had a Quaalude in my Sock

And I quote:

so be it, in this case I am well founded in my belief that I am right and supported by what facts you are comfortable enough to agree with.

No, I said I was a PKer. You said I was a manslave and I said I wasn't. But you know what they say on Brainstock - if you don't have an IWit, it didn't happen. Here, I took the liberty of doing some of your work for you. http://rg.urbandead.net/profiles/view/1367683 Do you see any evidence of me claiming to work for the Heathers in those IWits?

The only place your name appears on the database is under the heading “other associates” I imply that you may work for the Heathers is the talk page. This is an opinion and is not the same thing exactly as being a manslave. Yes I thought you were one, yes I see by the fact that you are obviously autonomous that you are not. I maintain that you associate with them, and SUSPECT that you may work for them: you have provided no evidence beside flat denial that you do not accomplish tasks on their behalf. I have provided circumstantial evidence that says you might on a talk page where discussion and opinions belong.

Add to this the idea that you style yourself after a dated Saturday Night Live Character and you are in keeping with their standard tacky manslave MO.

Oh, how I do love the classics! And let's not resort to personal attacks. But sorry, no, I'm not familiar with standard tacky manslave MOs. I'll be on the lookout for them so we can discuss it later.

Apology rendered for application of the word “tacky” to you (not to the Manslaves as they are quantifiably tacky)

Sarducci managed to do something unique: he got me upset. I do not apologize to Sarducci as I feel he deserves every ounce of my vitriol.

No, you managed to do that all by yourself. And I do think you owe me an apology. Several, actually.

Point of fact. Stimulus was provided by you causing frustration. It was provided with the probable intent to do just that. Conclusion. My statement is accurate. To the sub-statement, one apology rendered none others earned as yet.

Sarducci is not a death-cultist; he is a self admitted PKer. Even this is not entirely offensive but for the fact that he is rude.

I apologize if you mistook my writing above as rude. However, I find it very annoying when people spread false accusations so easily, and the target of these false accusations is burdened with having to bring the proof necessary to defend themselves. I cannot respect those who act in this manner. I do believe that calling people out for whatever reason should only be done when the proof is irrefutable, which is obviously not the case with ZombieGeorge and myself.

Appology accepted. My accusations on the database are not false as I believe I have demonstrated. The others were presented in the talk page with substantiating evidence. Since there is no such thing in science as irrefutable proof unless I can metaphysically poses you (not a very scientific act), I can only state a case. Once I have done so, the burden of proof does shift to you. That is how dialectic works.

The wiki is common property, despite Sarducci’s statement

Can you show me where I said the wiki is not common property? I'm curious to see that - exact - remark but I can't find it.

Your first post reads “you came into the FU's backyard (WhittensDIE) and began posting, pestering and taunting us on our wiki.” The term “our wiki” in reference to the Feral Undead and yourself, indicates that the wiki is not public property.

You did not begin to attack us until they did; in fact, you spent some time peacefully in Colglough in the early portions of the year unless I miss my recollection. These facts together make my statement that you are an associate the result of a hypothesis backed by observable facts. (from your first response to my post).

Actually, yes, your recollection on this point is also in error. If I spend time in Colglough or other buildings, I'm probably just resting up or reloading after a combat revive. And although you may not have noticed me (and that's OK because I'm usually pretty quiet) I was a part of the Spring Picnic from the very beginning. http://theferalundead.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=other&thread=6124&page=1 I've always been in Whittenside and in most instances when ZombieGeorge and Priapus broke into buildings, I was right there with them. Since you've already said Barhah is perfectly acceptable to you, it shouldn't come as any surprise that you've been on the menu for quite a while. However, your supposition that I didn't start shooting until the Heathers did is also wrong. My PKs were never reported until your group began posting them to RG. That doesn't mean I didn't start shooting until then.

The time to which I refer was prior to the Picnic by a few months. You did not speak but you stayed on for a time without incident (hence peacefully). Untill the heathers began their assault, you had not PKed. You did parachute and GK a couple of times and I believe you shot me but you did this after my group combat revived you and you did not cross the PKer line. We began reporting to the RG immediately after the first strike by the Heathers.

And next time you question my science come with more than righteous indignation.

Ah...nope. A response of that magnitude just isn't warranted for something like this. My review of your abilities will stand for itself.

As will mine; therefore, I decline to comment on this point further

I hope this will close the book on some of this, but if bad blood refuses to give way a more professional level of interaction, you may see me on your forum to continue this discussion.

If there's any bad blood, it's on your part but you're entirely welcome to bring this discussion to the Feral Undead board.

Not so, there was bad blood before I realized that there was. As evidence of that, see some of the comments on the rest of this page. To create an understanding one must first realize that there is a misunderstanding and to solve a problem one must acknowledge the problem. There is a necessary level of frustration n a conflict and then there is anger above and beyond this level. I am coming to understand that my presence and my work are angering people unnecessarily. Denying that they are does not help us reach a state where they do not.

Fr. Guido Sarducci 19:10, 20 July 2010 (BST)

Rather than reproduce quote after quote, I have chosen to save space and insert my responses into your post to address each item directly. -- Albert Schwan 

Suits me, Al. After all, it is your wiki page. *wink*

But hang with me a bit. I have a research proposal deadline in front of me and this particular formatting is unusual for wiki posts with your replies practically on top of mine. My tired old eyes just ain't what they used to be. I'll get back to you shortly, just as soon as I can take time to correct your paragraph spacing and read through this.

Fr. Guido Sarducci 16:30, 21 July 2010 (BST)

I have highlighted my responses, removed the extra signatures and edited the spaceing to correct the admitedly ugly previous format.

-- Albert Schwan 

Thanks but that wasn't necessary on my part. I was just going to copy it to Notepad but this does look better for a couple of reasons. Aesthetics aside, it also shows that you got a handle on your anger and that's a good thing.

There is a necessary level of frustration n a conflict and then there is anger above and beyond this level. I am coming to understand that my presence and my work are angering people unnecessarily. Denying that they are does not help us reach a state where they do not.

Yeah, I've seen a fair bit of anger and frustration demonstrated on this page. I also saw where you've run across that on some other other pages as well, but I'm not angry and I haven't been this whole time. I'm a little concerned about your single-tracked mindedness in the face of reason but I'm not angry. But you mentioned dialectic and what I've seen so far has been more of a monologue than a dialogue between us. And I do mean monologue because you've disregarded major points to focus/debate contrived points of contention and tried to talk at me or out-talk me rather than talk with me.

In the future, may I recommend you try having a productive, adult-like exchange of ideas based on listening to the other person and discussing the facts rather than a dialectic debate predicated on unsound or unproven theories? In general, I think things might go easier on you if you do. This works in real life too. *wink*

I maintain that you associate with them, and SUSPECT that you may work for them: you have provided no evidence beside flat denial that you do not accomplish tasks on their behalf. I have provided circumstantial evidence that says you might on a talk page where discussion and opinions belong.

You've used the words suspect and circumstantial evidence in lieu of showing any actual evidence. I think we can put this topic to rest.

The time to which I refer was prior to the Picnic by a few months. You did not speak but you stayed on for a time without incident (hence peacefully). Untill the heathers began their assault, you had not PKed. You did parachute and GK a couple of times and I believe you shot me but you did this after my group combat revived you and you did not cross the PKer line.

Parachute? GK? I'm not saying I didn't but I sure don't remember it. However, in respect to the GK, if I did, it would be very surprising and uncharacteristic for me since I consider things like GKing to be a monumental waste of AP. But did you happen to get an IWit of these event or shall I take your word for this too? And just a casual observation about my PKs -- I looked at the PK reporting thread this evening and noted that your first PK report began around May 4 (or 6) and my first PK on your group was a month later. One would think I'd start PKing much sooner than I did based on your accusations that I work for or with the Heathers. After all, you've pointed out that I sat peacefully in Whittenside before, during or after the Spring Picnic even though I didn't realize you were following me around that whole time to know exactly what I was doing. You gotta admit that's a little creepy but hey, what the hell. Let's move on.

There is a necessary level of frustration n a conflict and then there is anger above and beyond this level. I am coming to understand that my presence and my work are angering people unnecessarily. Denying that they are does not help us reach a state where they do not.

Al, like I've already said, I'm not mad and you really should stop projecting your own feelings and frustrations on to me. UrbanDead is just game for me, it's not life and death. I've intentionally kept a low profile on the wiki and the FU board because, in the grand scheme of things, these little wiki drama bombs are insignificant because they're just not real but they can be very time-consuming and I do have better things to do. But after reading a couple of your other wiki posts this evening and the reactions to them, yes, I think you can realistically say that your presence and/or your work can and does anger people but I'm not sure you should go so far as to say "unnecessarily". Seriously, it would probably be a very good idea if you took at least some responsibility for your actions so you could understand peoples' reactions to you.

Your first post reads “you came into the FU's backyard (WhittensDI) and began posting, pestering and taunting us on our wiki.” The term “our wiki” in reference to the Feral Undead and yourself, indicates that the wiki is not public property.

This is a prime example of what I said earlier about your so-called dialectic debates focusing on minor or contrived points of contention rather than addressing a major point. Something of this nature has come up before but the shoe was on the other foot, wasn't it? Do you remember your conversation with Zombie Lord about combat revives and he said you talk too much? Your answer was to defend your right to say whatever you like, how you like because it was on your own wiki page. I called you out for posting, pestering and taunting us on our wiki and your reply focused on the FU wiki being community property, not about you spamming our wiki (which you did). So explain something to me - how is the FU wiki any less our's than your wiki is your's, based on your own statement below?

This is retarded logic. Duel natures get revived a lot because they have DUAL NATURE in their profile, idiot. They are "safe" CR's. Jesus fuckin Christ I'm not even saying CR's should not be done but this is an idiotic argument. Oh btw, you could say all this shit in about 80% less words. Less is more. Fuck.-- | T | BALLS! | 06:17 4 July 2010(UTC)

Interesting, now allow me the chance to respond. First of all, I am sorry that Zombie Lord does not care for the language I use under my group’s name space but I will attempt to phrase things here more colloquially.

http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Talk:Dr._schwan%E2%80%99s_Research_and_Development_Team/Combat_Revive_Policy

This seems pretty double standard to me but it's in keeping with the rest of our conversation and that's all that really needs to be said about this topic.

In closing, I want to tell you that I'm finished with this conversation. This isn't some first year philosophy class where you have to debate someone until one of you drops dead from boredom or frustration. Keep a sense of proportion about things and be respectful to your readers, Al. In an attempt to have what you called a dialectic debate on most of your wiki pages, you came across sounding like a kid for whom English is a second language, and not as educated, witty and sophisticated as I'm sure you intended to sound. This is just a game. It's not life and death and you're not going to win or lose all the marbles in the universe based on what happens during an argument on the wiki. And you're perfectly welcome to have the last word on this conversation. It makes no difference to me. So my parting words to you are this --- try keep a sense of humor about this game and keep it all in prospective. You'll have more fun (and fewer problems) in the long run if you do. And don't forget to have IWits to back things up in the future. It'll go a long way to restoring your credibility if you do.

Fr. Guido Sarducci 03:45, 29 July 2010 (BST)

Since you saw fit to claim the moral high ground by offering me the opportunity to have the final word, it would be ungenerous of me to decline. I am afraid that my final rebuttal will have to go on my to-do list though as circumstances outside of Malton require the greater part of my attention for awhile. In short form though, you will remain on the list for reasons I have already outlined that I will augment. In the aftermath of our recent activity in the fort, I will be revising the section on the link between the Feral Undead in a way with which I think the feral will be much more satisfied. For the rest of my response, I ask that you be patient; however, I will add that I have found this little sparring match to be very entertaining and informational. I believe I have finally discovered what wiki edits the Ferals objected to so much. Had this been brought to my attention earlier, I think a lot of this could have been avoided. Again, more on this latter.

-- Albert Schwan  23:28, 7 August 2010 (BST)

I had almost forgotten that a full response to your last comment had not been posted. It had shuffled down on my to-do list recently. For that I must apologize and here do I post what I expect to be the last comment in this thread; you granted me that in exchange for the moral high ground. Therefore, thank you, and you are welcome respectively.

Before continuing, your comments make me realize that I must clarify the nature of a Dialectic. You seem to have a grasp of the concepts so I wil not spare you the terminology. While by definition it means two people talking, in practice it is the art of creating an argument and generating a response. That response can take two forms: counter syllogism and objection. The former provides an argument proving that something else besides the original conclusion is the case, the latter refutes the premises on which that conclusion is based. Both of these need to be supported by evidence or things degenerate into a shouting match, which is partially what we have here. Spiderzed and ZombieGeorge used counter syllogism, you use objection. My difficulty with the argument that we have been having is that besides telling me that I am wrong, saying that my premises do not necessarily lead to my conclusion, and calling for more data, you provide no substantiating evidence. I have. True it is not necessarily the case, but infallible signs (ie. Indisputable facts) are so rare in the real world as to be almost mythical. If they exist, there is no argument because the proof is demonstrable. I have laid out a forensic argument with a conclusion supported by my evidence. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that proves probability. All statistics and all stances on debatable issues are only probabilities as long as there is room for debate. That said, I still stand by my claims and believe that I have proven a high enough probability to warrant my reports. You have told me I am wrong…repeatedly. This is the same approach taken by the people on the other pages you noted. I have asked you to tell me why and support it, and you have responded that it is not your job to provide evidence and accused me of lazy or flawed reasoning. This leaves me with no recourse but to repeat myself and reassert, which is what I have done. Yes there is a breakdown in dialectic and yes I am talking at you, but the fault in this is not mine. I advised you once to come to this with more than indignation and you did not. Be that as it may, I will be removing you from the list not because I do not still believe you work with the Heathers but because it is immaterial whether or not you do. The purpose of this database is to inform people of them in an effort to aid in the correction of what I perceive to be a flaw in the game: namely, the fact that they exist. I would clarify that this is based not on what they do to me. I take umbrage with how they treat others in the interest of the grudge they bear me and with the wholly distasteful and unethical practices they use to accomplish their acts of spite. Your name on the list neither adds nor detracts greatly from the value of the database so I remove it as a gesture of goodwill towards other Ferals who have treated me more fairly than you have.

Now to a little more personal conversation. As to your comments on the serious way I treat the game and your imbedded attempt to one more gain moral high ground, you are not alone in this; the heathers have accused me of such before (to clarify, I do not intend to use this similarity as evidence for further argument). This comment, designed I suppose as an insult in conjunction with the unwarranted sleight regarding my command of the English language, is true in this case. I would point out that you mention that, to you, the game is just about entertainment. It is the same for me and for almost everyone else who plays. My enjoyment is derived from my writing, the development of strategy, and the interaction with others. You are quite right that you do not have to respond to my comments indefinitely, nor do I to yours; I choose to respond each time because it brings me enjoyment. Discovery, practice, trial and error: this is my game. My problem with the Heathers is that they are designed to cause pain in so far as the removal of enjoyment can be called such. Unlike standard PKers, they attempt through their griefing to ruin the enjoyment of others and drive them from the game from which they had derived pleasure. They do not harm my game as learning to circumvent the challenges they pose is fun for me. I hate them because this is not the case for the others they victimize. They are bullies and I do not care for bullies. For this reason, I take them very seriously and I do so proudly.

Something very good has come of this conversation: I believe you have brought to light the nature of my offense against the Feral Undead, and for that you have my thanks. All this time I had thought it was my edits on the suburb page and Colglough that had angered them. The edits you mention are the one ones on the Talk page. You are quite right; the FU talk page is “your” wiki. I had forgotten those. In my defense, they were made as a good spirited jab following a well executed takedown of the Colglough building by allied zombie groups. I made similar comments to the MOB and to the Undeadites, and they took them in good humor as they were intended. I did not realize the FU took offense. Had this been brought to my attention earlier, we could have resolved the issue and saved each other a great deal of typing.

In short, I now consider this exchange complete. You have your moral high ground and your name removed from the list, I have my final word, some clarification, and a chance to explain. I always welcome reasonable conversation and, secreted within the personal slights, warrantless indignation, and superior remarks, you have provided some. With a cooler head, I therefore thank you for what useful input you have provided and consider the remainder unworth mentioning further.

Yours, as ever, in science,

-- Albert Schwan  00:59, 6 September 2010 (BST)