UDWiki:Open Discussion/Akule vs. The Grimch

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In Akule's Defense (or Why The Grimch Should Not Be a Sysop)

Hi Kevan. As you might have noticed, the entire reason for this request was because I put him up for vandalism for breaking an Arbitration agreement. The following discussion resulted from the idea that I thought that it was looking like sysops were allowed to slide from arbitration or that you could get out of it if you were popular enough. The Arbitration page states: "As a note, by requesting an Arbitration, all parties are thus obliged to accept the outcome of the Arbitration. Not doing will be considered Vandalism, and such vandalism attempts will be treated as if the vandal has already received two warnings." I was asking boxy to follow that, as the arbitration agreement stated that Grim was not allowed to post on Nalikill's user page. Grim took offense to that, and started to cause this commotion stating I was Amazing.

Mainly, my chief complaint against Grim is that according to the General Conduct guidelines sysops are supposed to be trusted users, and thus are role models for all of the wiki users. As you can see from his signature above, Grim is a active member of Project UnWelcome. The goal of the group is: "Project UnWelcome is an Urban Dead Wiki member group dedicated to assisting veteran users to run off n00bs and unvalued members of the wiki community. We despise all wiki members who share in the goal of enriching our community with new blood, or daring to make this community a more welcoming place for all." Some methods they use are:

1. "Show new people the ropes - If we see a user we've never met before make some mistakes on the wiki (editing templates instead of using them properly), instead of berating or ignoring the user, we'll hunt them down and hang them. No one was a perfect wiki editor straight off the bat, but if you're dumb enough to get caught, you deserve to die."
2. "Flame new users - Our community can only isolate itself by scaring off new members, and so we work hard to deride, insult and question the sexuality of any new user who wants to edit our wiki."
3. "Encourage intolerance in non-members - Not everyone is in Project UnWelcome, but the whole community needs to be involved. As much as is feasible, we try to incite anger towards new members, as a single angry encounter can make someone who may become a valued member of our community leave prematurely. We also discourage users making themselves open for Arbitration duties. "
4. "Be a contact point for new users - New users can't know every procedure on the wiki off the bat, and we understand that sometimes the documentation around here isn't easily locatable. So, by lying outright to these amoeba, we can prevent them from ever becoming productive members. "
5. "Help new users help hang themselves - Sometimes the documentation around here isn't easily locatable, or particularly useful, even when it is locatable. As such, we try to make the situation deteriorate, by creating documentation that is unhelpful and ambiguous, by ensuring that existing documentation cannot readily be found by new users, and by thoroughly sabotaging what little is left."

They explain where their members should target users, which just happens to be Suggestions and Talk:Suggestions. Before, when you discussed the idea of civility, Grim was put up for misconduct due to his tone and how he swore out another user. Other users have requested that he change, asked him to tone it down, but Grim has shown his opinion on the matter. Flip through his Contributions. You'll notice that he routinely strolls through the Suggestions and Talk:Suggestions pages and flames, belittles, and harasses users. Many of these situations have escalated to vandal banning cases, such as with Nalikill's vandal banning. A look at the bottom of his talk page shows that so many people have become upset with how routinely he sticks with Project_UnWelcome's guidelines.

So, you have a sysop who routinely lies, flames, encourages intolerance, and actively tries to make situations deteriorate. I can't imagine how many people he has hurt or chased away from the wiki duing his time here, but it will clearly reflect upon you and your game, since he continues to be in a position of power, with his actions seemingly approved by you since your Bureaucrats, Sysops, and you do not say or do anything to prevent it. He has expressed that he will not follow civility guidelines and actively fights against any policies that are suggested to be put into place for moderating sysop behavior. How can we consider him to be a trusted user at all? Is this the type of person whom you want running your wiki? Do you want other users to consider him their role-model? Everyone talks about how we should be following the spirit of the rules and not the actual wording, so, I request that you remove him from being an active sysop due to a breech of trust of the spirit of the General Conduct required for all Sysops. You are the only person with the power or will to be able to do so. Thank you for listening. --Akule ^{School's in session.} 21:47, 8 September 2007 (BST)

First off, I think you just took the record for "longest post but still saying jack crap." You seriously need to relax. I accepted the debate, reacted calmly. Me and Grim had a mutual, calm debate. You took up the cause. You were the one who started this whole mess, who has perpetuated it. If anyone, I and only I have the right to complain about it. I have publicly forgiven him, and begged for him not to be punished. So, please, SHUT UP ALREADY, you've taken this all the way through the vandal banning, when your whining didn't work there, you're now bringing this to Kevan. Guess what? NO ONE CARES. GRIM DIDN'T BREAK THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW, AND BARELY BENDED THE LETTER. Nalikill 21:57, 8 September 2007 (BST)

Grim took it to Kevan first. I merely just explained my reasoning behind it. And as Kevan can see from your user contributions, you have already undergone a change from a nice wiki user to one modeled after Grim. see what I mean about sysops being role-models, Kevan? He's encouraging users not to be civil with one another and adopt attitudes like his. --Akule ^{School's in session.} 22:01, 8 September 2007 (BST)

I'm still very, very nice...except to witches that can't let things go. Nalikill 22:03, 8 September 2007 (BST)

Go back to your bridge.--Thari ^{TжFedCom is BFI!} 22:07, 8 September 2007 (BST)

I agree with you, Akule. But prepare for flames. Grimchy'll probably go on yet another long b*tching drive about how you're wrong and he's right, and how everyone except him is a stupid moron who doesn't deserve respect. Flaming doesn't sort anything out, and an good sysop should know that. Sysops should be examples to the community, who HELP new users. I'll probably be told I took blunt face trauma to the head because I made this post, but I don't give a feth. And please, Nalikill, don't turn into the next Grimch. --Anotherpongo 10:19, 9 September 2007 (BST)

The top of this talk page says:

If you'd like to respond to someone who's posted here, you should do so on their talk page.

--Cyberbob ^{DORIS CGR U!} 10:22, 9 September 2007 (BST)

I agree that his attitude is needlessly unhealthy for the wiki, but I think you're misunderstanding what the word "trusted" means, in the context of sysops. If you're unhappy with the criteria under which sysops currently operate, you should put forward a proposed policy change, and bring up official misconduct charges for any breach of those criteria. (I'd support this, I just wouldn't unilaterally force it onto everyone.) --Kevan 10:47, 9 September 2007 (BST)

Meh, my hostile attitude is usually limited to my talk page or the suggestions pages. In the case of my talk page, i can pretty much behave as i want there, and in the case of the suggestions pages, its pretty much a tradition going back to just after the system was created. While i admit i may go a little beyond what most people would consider normal (And, indeed, removed the sysop tag from my signature specifically to indicate i am just another user, and my opinions and thought should be weighed without that ballast), i must reiterate that my method of posting is not intentionally hostile. It is blunt and honest. If i dont like people, i tell them. If i think an idea is stupid, i say so. And i say how much. People who have figured that out get along with me just fine, indeed, many such people have become good friends.

Project UnWelcome is a parody of Project Welcome, which i signed up to because it was, and still is, funny. My talk page is riddled with examples, both past and present, of where i have gone against the "sacred commandments" of Project UnWelcome. Its a joke, and a funny one, but Akule conveniently ignores the fact that on its own page, there is a comment about it being a parody of Project Welcome. Also, since my talk page hasnt been archived since i implimented the system there more than a year and a half ago, any person who cares can go and review it themselves (In fact, i encourage you all to do so, if only to show that Akules statements are massive exaggerations and fabrications), however, i feel i should unmask one of them here, so you dont have to go on faith alone that they are, indeed, fabrications.

Akule says:

"Many of these situations have escalated to vandal banning cases, such as with Nalikill's vandal banning."'

Bullshit. That is the rare exception, and it was an understandable (in hindsight) overreaction, and im glad to see he has moved past it and come out wiser for it. In point of fact, i believe that Nalikills case was the first one of its kind started against me for events on that page. Many? HA! This is nothing short of a crusade against me by akule, and one i have no clue as to the cause. Maybe i am to him as Arthur Dent is to Agrajag.

Anyhow, for anyone who cares, the truth is there to be found. Dont take either my word or that of Akules as the truth without going and doing some digging of your own first. Attempt to verify the claims made by both sides.

Now, if Kevan wants to UnSysop me, that his choice, and it wont bother me overmuch. I have better things to do than worry about some so called "power". The reasons i applied to be a sysop are apaprent on my promotion bid and my talk page, provided you look in the right places. I leave you now with this comment, cut and pasted from my talk page (Discussion with karlsbad, first subheading)

"So, no, i dont deserve moderator powers. No one ever does. But i have them, and it is my responsibility and duty to ensure i use them responsibly. That does not, however, mean i cannot speak my mind."

Thank you. And thats all i have to say on this, im off to do something more interesting, like mod the NW Suggestions forum. --The Grimch ^U! 13:47, 9 September 2007 (BST)

I can't beleive that this is still going on. Did the poor little copywright lawyer get so wound up he had to take it to the big boss? Surely there is a seperate place for calling for moderators to be removed, other than spamming the talk page of someone not involved in the recent drama?--Seventythree 17:46, 9 September 2007 (BST) I agree with Akule. Grim has been very immature and he is bad for this website. Without young blood, a website dies. Also Grim sent me two warnings and I dont even know what their for.--Scout 2107 03:39, 10 September 2007 (BST)

Certainly, I shall be happy to remind you what they are for, unbreakableman. http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Suggestion:Pray , which, even IF it wasn't humorous, gave no justification for THIS: http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Suggestion:20070819_Knock_Out&diff=prev&oldid=805948 . So. Do you remember now? Nalikill 03:42, 10 September 2007 (BST)

I dont know who the hell unbreakableman is or why you think its me but I will admit to the second one. I added a kill and dupe to it but changed my mind. I deleted a bunch a shit thinking it was like the rest of wiki where you cant realy edit or delete someone elses post and ...I forgot it said save. Force of habit since it was closer then the backbutton--Scout 2107 04:08, 10 September 2007 (BST)

One word answers the "unbreakableman" question, scout:Checkuser Nalikill 04:10, 10 September 2007 (BST)

Alright guys, this is Kevan's talk page, not social hour at the hurrbar--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 04:14, 10 September 2007 (BST)