UDWiki talk:Administration/Policy Discussion/Voting Eligibility (2)

Discussion

Right now, any user can vote for a bureaucrat, with no limits for edits or time in the community. What about if we limit the voting ability to users whose first edit where made atleast before the beginning of the election ? This would help sort sockpuppets and other assorted cronies. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 13:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Policy discussion would be needed to change it -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 13:36 25 November 2008 (BST)

I'm fine with the principal, but we would need a crack team of janitors to sort them out, and then a determine who can strike votes (presumably sysops?) But, yeah, Boxy is right. You would need to take this to a policy discussion. Linkthewindow  Talk  20:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I would support this.... I would prefer if the voting rights were pretty much the same as the requirements to stand; ie: 12 edits in the 30 days previous to elections start--Honestmistake 00:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

haggy that'd take about 3 seconds to push through, do it. but keep it simple. or you'll lose votes and get nothing done.--xoxo 13:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

HOLY FUCK! Didn't we already go through this shit? Didn't you get a misconduct case for striking votes? Wasn't Grim up your ass about this before your little "vacation"? Stop fucking trying to pretend this is a fucking "open wiki" when all you assholes are bending over backwards to keep your little cliques fucking alive.

Nice to see J3D is towing the party line like a good little nigger and trying to fit in with one of the few people that actually supported him. Also nice to know that you didn't seem to have an opinion on any of this (no votes on the previous incarnations) until Fagnut came out with something. It's a good thing your cronies are all established on the wiki already, J3D, otherwise you would have to rely totally on your tongue up Hagnut's ass. -- #99 ^DCC 00:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

yep that's pretty much it. it's a pretty lax restriction, don't really see how it excludes the community. Anyone who has made one edit before the election starts can vote. So what you're trying to say is that every user who has made an edit to the wiki is in hagnat (and by extension mine, and your) clique? how odd.--xoxo 00:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

take out the tinfoil hat, dcc. Unlike the previous policy, this one asks for a single edit to any other page before the election starts. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 01:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Meh, let the people vote. Even if you bar users from voting due to them not editing enough or whatever, it doesn't change the whole "popularity contest" thing. Nor does it really matter.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 00:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

actually, if such rules were to be enforced in other votings, such as policy vote, this could help twart many voting rigs that could occur. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 01:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I really don't think this will have much of an effect if it does pass. A policy of some sort to prevent meatpuppets is needed, but this isn't it. A requirement of 1 edit can be easily met by anyone who cares enough about a policy to make an account for the express purpose of voting on that policy, so that will have little or no effect on the problems this seeks to address (especially if edits to user pages are counted.) On the other hand, if the requirements are made too stringent, this will be unfair to new members, as was mentioned many times in the discussion that DCC linked to up above. --Pestolence^(talk) 03:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Edits must be made before the policy was CREATED, not put for vote. Therefore, if anyone has interest in the outcome of a policy, he must work with those who had registered and edited the wiki before the discussion of that policy begun --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 10:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

OK then... How big of a problem is meat/sockpuppeting in elections, anyway?--Pestolence^(talk) 17:43, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless it is a huge problem and results in elections' results being unfairly rigged, I'm going to have to agree with Suicidalangel above me. --Pestolence^(talk) 20:45, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

One thing that I don't think anyone's considered is the extra buerocracy that the appeal process would create. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Redlock (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

History Purges

How would you ensure that people weren't denied a vote because they had edited the wiki before, but not after a history purge (which makes it look like they have no contributions in some cases) -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 01:53 27 November 2008 (BST)

if the user has content in its user page its already a simple edit and no further proof is needed. If he doesnt, its his job to search for a page where he made an edit (prolly his sig in a talk page) and ask for re-validation of his vote. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 02:04, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

There will need to be a process for appeals spelled out then. First on the talk page of the striker, and then perhaps the vote's talk page, then a "random" sysops, I guess -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 02:10 27 November 2008 (BST)

There, rule added. I restricted the ability to confirm the votes to sysops because otherwise a user could point to some page, another meat puppet could drop by and say its true, validate the vote and then simply nullify the whole policy. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 02:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

There could be a bit of drama still, especially if a respected, recently-returned user gets his vote stricken because his history was purged. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:40, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Such users HAVE user pages, therefore they WILL have atleast one edit marked under their name, independently of history purges. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 10:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

BULLSHIT! Just look at a [suburb history]sometime. There are edits where the user's name is red because they don't feel the fucking need to put up some bullshit "This is my gay ass character. I'm a 12th level Paladin" crap. Where the fuck is the need for this policy?-- #99 ^DCC 15:47, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe fagnut should get off this policy kick he's been on since he got back and actually do some fucking work. Would that be too much to ask? Or did you just want to get the sysop title back so your lame ass policies seem more SRS BIZNESS! -- #99 ^DCC 16:04, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

As I said in the opening of the discussion I would prefer the need to be 12 edits in the previous 30 days. Even if left as just a single edit i do think that restricting it to the previous 30 days is a good idea as it shows active involvement in the wiki as opposed to someone who registered an account 12 months earlier and only checks in occassionally to look at the maps/danger reports. Thats not to say that such folk are not part of the community but i am suggesting that they will not know or care enough about the policy/candidate to vote unless outside influences guide them--Honestmistake 09:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind a higher requirement ether, but it's a fine line between a good anti-meatpuppet rule and and an anti-newbie rule. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:40, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Honestmistake on the time limit, but the number of edits doesn't really matter. Requiring more edits is mostly just going to make it more difficult to verify whether they're eligible or not. --Midianian ^{Big Brother Diary Room: [510,27]} 10:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that thinkering with numbers of edits and time in the community can be worked out later, in other policies. This policy only aims to fight disposable meatpuppets, and to further help twart the other kinds it would need harsher limits, which would likely kill this policy --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{talk mod} 10:57, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

A time limit is nonsense. my first edit last week was to vote for boxy. I knew everybody running, knew the rules, helped write them over the years actually and I've been as actively involved in this wiki as anybody can be. And I shouldn't be allowed to vote? We got dozens of active users that lurk for months at a time or go on wiki-vacations. And how about the regular lurkers? nothing bring people into this community as the ability to vote on something. these sort of limitations damage a whole lot more then they fix. they create a closed off wiki hostile to new comers. We are a information source, those that use that information source without necessary editing a whole lot are our core user base. Removing those from such important topics is against everything the wiki should stand for.-- Vista  T  02:30, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

History Purges. How many have we had? 2 or 3? If its that relevant (Which i don't feel it is.) would it be easier to add a clause about how this policy is irrelevant up to 2 weeks after a purge? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

History purges are actually relevant. The only AGAINST votes for my sysop bid were due to lack of edits but it was a history purge that made it seem like I didn't have enough. I'm really against any restrictions on voting rights. I don't see the need for this pointless red tape because some people fear "meat puppets". --– Nubis ^NWO 03:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

the purge made it look like you didn't have many edits, you'd have to be pretty nooby (aka not have a user page) for it to remove all your edits.--xoxo 03:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

But why require edits at all? Have there ever been real meat puppets trouble?-- Vista  T  03:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. --ZsL 18:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The goons did didn't they? On that policy kevan stepped in and denied if i recall correctly...--xoxo 04:03, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The goon policy was mainly about vote STRIKING. It wasn't about requirements. It specifically said Meatpuppetry (votes that are thought to have been done as a group bloc) should not constitute a valid reason for striking due to the difficulties of determining when this is actually occurring. The policy had 52 votes FOR and they weren't all goons. --– Nubis ^NWO 00:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems a bit irrelevant. Everyone knows the active wiki users, and I doubt that would change after a purge. Linkthewindow  Talk  19:47, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

If the requirement is one edit, the likelihood of a history purge causing trouble is about 0. --xoxo 03:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The history purge issue has already been fixed (along with any other unforeseen problems) by the simple addition of an appeals process -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 04:05 29 November 2008 (BST)

Meatpubbitry

... has happened before and Kevans veto made it clear that he was against "all levels of meatpuppetry being totally acceptable on policy votes". The requirement of a single edit before the vote opens is the absolute minimum requirement we could ever set, and it's not going to rule anyone out, unless they have been totally uninvolved with the wiki and signed up specifically to vote. Wiki specific policy and administration rights (sysop/bureaucrat) votes have absolutely no effect upon the wider, non-wiki using, Urban Dead community (those who only play the game and don't wiki) -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 04:05 29 November 2008 (BST)

But it didn't cause any trouble then either. Meat puppetry shouldn't cause any troubles as long as sysops are not democratically chosen but promoted by bureaucrats and policies where meat puppetry happens get truck down. Voting used to be the biggest single activator we had. People used to sign up to vote because they were actually invested in this wiki but needed a prodding or reason to participate. This policy just introduces another hurdle for users for no real benefit-- Vista  T  04:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I figure that Kevan being forced to bring out the veto stick is an indication that wiki policy is failing. I work on the principle that the wiki should run without Kevan's input as much as possible -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 02:16 30 November 2008 (BST)

What Boxy said. As long as this doesn't affect votes that may have a minor effect on the game (think suggestion votes,) then I can't really see a problem with instituting a very low requirement for voting. What Vista said was interesting though, and I can relate. I mostly signed up to vote on suggestions, as well as update danger reports. Linkthewindow  Talk  20:26, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

If you actually bothered to look at the page you linked you might have noticed that only 9 out of the 53 FOR votes are people that don't have user pages (but since the purge I can't tell if they had any edits). I would bet that a few of those (except the ones that Cheese got misconducted for striking) had edits to the Dead's page at least or the Danger Map or a suburb news section. Your requirement of one edit is pointless. It wouldn't have affected that vote. If your policy wouldn't have changed the situation that it is a pathetic reaction to why do you think it will stop future situations? --– Nubis ^NWO 00:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it won't perfectly fix the problem... and quite frankly, the internet being what it is, I doubt any policy will. However this policy will make it clear that meat puppetry is not encouraged, and will stop quite a few. Apart from the red linked ones you counted above, there are ones like this and this who created their user pages on the day they voted (or just before) which would be picked up. And as to your "actually bothered to look at the page you linked" bullshit. I was there... at the time, watching it all happen. Where were the bloody hell were you? And contrary to popular belief, I'm not supporting a policy like this to "get The Dead" or the goons, or whatever. They simply made a clear example of what can be done by a sufficiently large group if they have the will to recruit members who have obviously no idea of how the wiki works to vote on reactionary policies without any regard for the long term good of the wiki -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 02:16 30 November 2008 (BST)