UDWiki:Open Discussion/Implementation of UDWiki Discord rules

Background

This is an unusual Open Discussion seeing as it's a meta-wiki issue, but we've had some problems in the past 24 hours on the Urban Dead Wiki Discord channel.

Drama caused by an UDWiki-permabanned trouble user coming to Discord has caused a problem with what the community expects of a sysop's responsibilities on Discord. Because the user wasn't banned once the conversation went downhill, users engaged in hostile discussion and eventually sabotaged the discord channel with inane discussion and @everyone spam. As it stands, the following discord (lol) caused more ruckus than Corn's initial arrival. If 'chat disruption' was a banworthy offence, many rightfully angry people would be banned right now.

I understand why the community was frustrated, while also understanding why the sysop team didn't feel able to satisfactorily resolve the issue as it unfolded. On one hand, the community expects fair and decent decision to be meted out efficiently. But on the other hand, sysops don't usually make up rules on the fly. They interpret rules that are decided upon by the community.

Well, I think this is a good chance for us all to discuss whether we should make some ground rules for Discord that the sysops feel more comfortable enforcing. They need to be fair, quickly enforceable, and hopefully not require a drastic increase in oversight. I think it needs to reflect the principles of the wiki, ie. no civility policy. But focus more on avoiding derailment of discussion that temporarily ruins the Discord channel for its regular uses.

Things I think we should avoid is a system as onerous on discussion as UDWiki's vandal system. It needs to be something sysops can quickly act on.

For other users of Discord channels with functioning rules systems, please share them. I'm familiar with IRC systems, not so much Discord, as it stands. Any examples are helpful.

And if anyone wants to discuss the actual drama that unfolded in the past two days, please hash it out on the talk page if necessary. Bring it up if relevant here, but let's focus on the rules at hand please. THE CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER 11:02, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

General Discussion and Thoughts

Other thoughts I had were- Having model non-sysop users given ops on the channel for coverage might be good. We have an opportunity here to avoid red tape associated with the wiki and do things that work for Discord that don't work on the wiki. I'm cool with keeping this chill and not policy-dictated. THE CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER 11:02, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

The Discord is an entirely separate entity created by Bob and only insofar official as no one has bothered to create any competition (as was the case with the UDWiki IRC for a while when there were 2 competing IRC channels). It would ultimately be up to Bob how to handle and how strictly to moderate it, and to the users to vote with their feet. -- Spiderzed▋ 12:12, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Bob as dictator on the wiki would make it easier to kill whatever needs to die. I say go for it! (It seems pretty easy to ban a user on discord) -- King AudioAttack (talk) 12:45, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Having more OPs online would be an excellent idea. The next time the "Totally Not a Nazi Anymore" Permabanned User in question decided to rattle off a laundry list of holocaust denialism, having someone on the spot to take action and forestall another 5 hours of "debate" would probably be helpful. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 13:27, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

"sabotaged the discord channel with inane discussion and @everyone spam"... that's a funny way to say "drew attention to the infestation of literal Nazis and Nazi sympathisers in the server." Fuck you, fuck your family, fuck everyone who has ever crossed paths with you, fuck the specific people who assembled the specific machine you are using to type your words, you Nazi apologist piece of shit. Igotmadenoughtomakeanewaccount (talk)

And if you think disrupting chat and no-platforming a fascist is worse than BEING A NAZI, well, fuck you etc. again. You absolutely worthless waste of space. You outhouse breeze. You schmuck. You hangnail. You piece of dog shit on the heel of a $1000 pair of Oxfords. You crisp lodged in a tooth at just the right angle you can't floss it out. You spineless apologist for all things evil in the world. You brainless toady. You chinless halfman who thinks being white makes him superior by right to all humanity. You umbrella with a hole in it. You absolute fucker. Igotmadenoughtomakeanewaccount (talk) 14:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Yep, definitely said one was worse than the other. Sigh. THE CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER 22:00, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Having just come back to the game, just about the first thing I saw when joining that discord server is literal Nazi propaganda. It shouldn't take 48 hours of debate and a signature from Daddy to decide if Holocaust Denialism is bad. It's an absolute embarrassment, and the fact that none of your "sysops" has the guts to make a stand on LITERAL NAZISM is absolutely appalling. Good luck with player retention if this is the first thing that others see when they start getting involved with the game. --Ocular 14:22, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Most of os already left due to the amount of toxic nazi bullshit. Hail King AudioAttack (talk) 17:11, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry, I was technically out of town and thus only had access via my phone for the last 36 hours. Please see the below, and I'm really sorry to y'all and to anyone else who was driven away by the lack of prompt moderation; it was definitely not my intent, and I apologize. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 18:19, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Whether there should be rules and enforcement thereof on the Discord server is a non-discussion. Of course there should be basic rules of conduct for the goddamned thing. There should also be moderators/admins who actually moderate instead of hiding behind "sysops are not moderators". In fact, if our wiki sysops aren't inclined to also moderate the official UDWiki Discord, then they should not have any rights on the Discord beyond that of normal users. I can see a reason to tag them as "Wiki Sysops" and give them a special colored name, but if they don't want to have any responsibilities on the Discord they don't deserve any privileges either. As for what form the rules should take, apparently following Wheaton's Law (Don't Be A Dick) is too hard for people to understand/too easy for asshats to deliberately misunderstand, so here's a basic fucking template for reasonable rules on any Discord server:

DO

1. Be respectful to each other - no racism, sexism, etc.
2. Post content in the relevant channels.
3. Trash talk each other via #ingame within reason.
4. Summon a moderator or admin when someone's being an asshat

DON'T

1. Post links to illegal or malicious content - no CP, dox, malware, pirated goods, etc.
2. Harass other people, espouse fascism, or do other things which would get you punched IRL.
3. Confuse trash talk contained within #ingame for personal attacks
4. Be A Dick

Also, fuck Nazis forever. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 03:07, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

One notable thing that distinguishes UDWiki from other communities is that there has never been a civility policy - it was attempted and shot down by the very community. Sys-ops take a more technical, janitorial role and generally keep their nose out of the interaction between users, and sys-ops explicitely aren't moderators. Users can be impolite, unfriendly jerks as much as they like (as long as they don't break any rules or get bound up by arbitration agreements in the process), and WIKI LAW can only do jack shit about them. -- Spiderzed▋ 12:37, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

You're assuming that everyone will act like sensible adults with those rules. This game has been running for so long that those in their teens/early 20s have reached mid-to-late 20s and early 30s at least, and to see the discord turn into the schmozzle it was, was really quite disappointing. Especially since I had specifically stated that I wasn't currently available to do anything. But what I really wanted to say was if we were to choose people to moderate that server, how would we actually do that? What criteria would we use? How would we trust those we gave powers to would actually moderate fairly? stelar ^{Talk|MCM|EBD|Scourge} 13:16, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Choose active and willing members of the community, if they abuse Bob sanctions them and restores the normal order. It's not a tricky idea. Also the notion that everyone itc has been playing the game for 10 years and is nearing 30 seems...simplistic. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 14:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Discord itself has rules on its use. That would be a starting point.-- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 13:33, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

How would we feel considering "DON'T" rules 1-4 could have gotten 90% of the Cornholioo protesters banned over the span of the last 48 hours (only counting #1 if we count @everyone spamming as malicious link usage)? THE CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER 13:48, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

This seems facile - 1. Ridiculous interpretation, that'd at best be #4, 2. ?, 3. At no point was Cornholio ingame trash talking, merely using #ingame to trashtalk rl, 4. Well I guess we're all gone then. But if we had above rules to begin with, and moderation to back them up, the discussion would never have gotten to that point. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 14:20, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Considering you Globetrotters haven't been exemplary wiki users, I wouldn't trust you to moderate the discord fairly. Also, you guys kept that conversation going when Cornholioo wasn't even there. He merely said a couple of things, and you guys took off running with that whole conversation. So again, how could we choose trustworthy mods? stelar ^{Talk|MCM|EBD|Scourge} 14:27, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't think any of us requested, nor particularly would -want- the position. I have faith that the leading figures of this community would be able to identify good reliable active people surely. As for the larger discussion pre-Cornholio's return to spew Nazism - I'm happy to acknowledge our role in if if you acknowledge we weren't the only ones keeping it alive, as you apparently seem to think. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 14:48, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I read back over the entire thing, and it was you guys that perpetuated the conversation. And then your buddy Cup Runneth Over decided to be a douchebag and @everyone. So yes, it really was you guys that kept that conversation going. stelar ^{Talk|MCM|EBD|Scourge} 15:01, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

And you wonder why we might consider you biased. It's a non sequitur anyway for the topic at hand. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 15:02, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Biased how exactly? You guys pinged me your concerns, then instead of shutting up about said topic, you kept it running for like 4 or so hours. And I'm the one that is biased?c stelar ^{Talk|MCM|EBD|Scourge} 15:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes. --ShaqFu |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 15:50, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I too remember how we filibustered unilaterally for four hours completely by ourselves. What a crazy night. The bias is clear Slanted Stelar. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 15:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Stelar, you are ignoring that we were arguing with 3-4 people who were either defending corns right to be a Nazi or was a holocaust denier/minimizer. We were not just talking amongst ourselves about the Nazi.

Also, one of those accounts only popped up during the conversation. Somebody didn't want to use their main account to argue their pro Nazi stance (I'm assuming it was corn).-- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 18:39, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Responses to Dragonshardz and the above:

Technically, it is the unofficial UDWiki discord server. Kevan doesn't own it, and has never shown up there; I also created it myself, without even running it by the sop team beforehand as far as I can recall.

As I said below, the primary reasons I've given sysops a special color/role are twofold. The first and most important is to identify us — so users with wiki- or game-related questions can ask a sysop specifically, or can private message one of us if they so choose. The second is the optional moderation, which wouldn't be obligatory even if the discord was official — since, even on here, sysops are not moderators. That said, a major mechanism I use to evaluate my own & others' trust in community members is the sysop application process — so if someone does want to moderate, I strongly encourage you to apply to become a sysop~

In terms of the specific do's and don't's. Now that there is no non-UD-related talk permitted, do #1 & don't #2 shouldn't be a problem except where it falls within do #3. Do #4, the person to summon is me (other sysops may choose to act or not, their choice), although be warned I interpret "asshat" broadly but "bannable asshat" very narrowly, and I also sleep sometimes (shockingly). Don't #1 means you're in violation of Discord's rules, and therefore reportable to Discord for banning from the platform entirely.

I think the pro- and anti-Murderess discussions are a good counterpoint. On the server, they've often been quite nasty, and drag on for hours and hundreds of messages, but they've always been on-topic to her, her allies' and her opponents' actions in-game, on the wiki, or on other discord servers, and I've never been close to tempted to banning anyone for them (although it would make my reading load a lot lighter). Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 18:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

This response is directed first at stelar, but I'll get to you, Bob, don't worry. First of all, stelar, fuck you and fuck your refusal to do anything about actual goddamned Nazis on the Discord. Fuck Aichon too, for that matter. And fuck you, Bob, for giving people power and privileges beyond that of other users on the Discord and not making them responsible for using those powers at all, much less in a just manner. If sysops are not moderators, why the fuck do they have what amount to moderator powers on the Discord?

Secondly, the reason to have a list of rules is so that people who break them face the consequences. The point of having moderators, instead of mealy-mouthed sysops who hide behind "we're not moderators!" to avoid taking action to ban Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, and Holocaust deniers, is to enforce the rules - not only the letter but the spirit! Fuck you, in general, for that.

Lastly, fuck you for thinking that a group of nerds shouting at Nazis for being Nazis is remotely a bigger problem than there being actual fucking Nazis on the Discord server. Fuck you, fuck your shit, and the horse you rode in on. Did you really expect people to quietly let Nazis keep Nazi-ing about after you popped up long enough to do fuckall? --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 01:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Sysops aren't moderators on the wiki. If you can't handle that, maybe neither the wiki nor the discord is the place for you? There are many communities out there online run in very different ways.

There were no rules to enforce until I listed newly-implemented rules (see below) after all this went down. That's my bad, and I've apologized (and apologize again) for it, because I didn't realize the discord would get as much traction as it has.

Nazis are worse than people shouting about nazis. Doesn't mean that either of those has a place on the discord server from here on out.

Also, why does Stelar get so much more hate than I do, from everybody? She did literally nothing more or less than I did (aka being offline at the time, and expressing as much). So ??? I'm truly baffled by this one. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 04:14, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm irritated at stelar (and aichon) having the power to deal with the nazis and refusing to, even when summoned repeatedly. I'm baffled at them having the power to do so and hiding behind not being moderators on the wiki to excuse their inaction on Discord. Stelar's getting more people mad at her because while you've admitted to fault, and Aichon's admitted he just doesn't want to, stelar's been bleating out excuses and implying our refusal to stop bothering you lot about the fascists was somehow The Problem. This irritates me, specifically, because she's trying to have it both ways: she wants the power to moderate behavior on the wiki, but doesn't care enough/is too busy to use that power.

To sum up: If you're going to have rules, they had damn well better be enforced. People who have the ability to enforce the rules also have the responsibility to enforce the rules. People who do not have the responsibility to enforce the rules should not have any special abilities beyond those of a normal user. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 04:24, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah my beef with Stelar is largely the bias shown - in this case putting what feels like the blame for the events entirely on the anti-nazi contingent, a group which she has pre-existing reason to be disposed against. Now that there are no more Nazis, we shouldn't have any further problems about shouting about them which solves that issue. Otherwise I agree with Dragon - empower those who are interested in keeping order, and don't be surprised if people get peeved at those who do have that power but choose not to use it when called upon. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 04:33, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Ahhh, to you both, here's where we differ. People who have the ability and the role requirement to enforce the rules then and only then have the responsibility. Only I, as owner of the server, have taken that role requirement onto myself; others have the role option only, and I will vigorously defend Aichon and Stelar to the death for that. ("If you have any power, you are required to use it" violates the basic rules of logic, and also isn't how human society operates.)Also, gonna repeat the point that there weren't rules to enforce when all of the lack of activities you're mad about occurred — with the exception of Discord's rules, which allow anyone (anyone!) to report violating users to Discord itself. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 04:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

If you want to bring that up, we did report. Someone deleted all the offending posts in the interim, rendering the reports useless because the deletions were done improperly. That those with the power *could* do something but choose not to, well, I guess we philosophically differ on whether or not it's fair to get peeved at said users for inactivity. Sure hope you deputize some people who are interested at some point. (Again, sure not me before Stelar or whoever was making that point earlier brings it up again.) Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 04:41, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I was at work. I was on my lunch break when this all was starting, and had to get back to work not long after. I'm not on my phone at work, nor do I have any ability to be on discord on a computer. I literally couldn't do anything at that time. stelar ^{Talk|MCM|EBD|Scourge} 04:46, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Btw, that person was me — I banned Corn and deleted #off-topic before I realized that. I'd have banned with no message deletion and locked the channel (I think there's a way to do that) until reports were processed if I'd known they were ongoing. (I feel bad, but also literally nobody private messaged me letting me know as much, so not sure how sorry I can be on this one.) Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 04:49, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

How convenient. Either you screwed it up through ineptitude, or you deliberately acted in such a way to cover for the Nazis swarming your discord, making sure the incriminating messages would no longer be there when the reports got looked at. You're either incompetent or a sympathiser. Igotmadenoughtomakeanewaccount (talk) 05:13, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

To give a wiki sort-of-comparable example, there was a misconduct case back in 2013 that pretty much hinged on, "are sysops obligated to use their powers, and use them promptly, to ban a user if that user violates wiki rules?" The answer was, in fact, a resounding "no". (There's a lot else happening in that case, so have fun in the treasure trove that is the archives!) Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 04:49, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

My Thoughts (as a Sysop)

I'm a wiki sysop. I never signed up to be a Discord admin and have zero interest in being one. I'm only on Discord as a way to be more accessible to people who want to bring wiki concerns to my attention. That's it. The fact that I was given the "sysop" label on the server was something that I viewed as a courtesy so that people could more easily recognize who I was, but I have neither the time nor the desire to involve myself in Discord, let alone in its policing. I didn't ask for it, and I certainly won't allow myself to be bullied into taking action by people demanding an immediate response to a non-immediate problem that can just as easily be dealt with at a later time. Particularly so when those demands impinge on my real life comings-and-goings.

As for my thoughts as an infrequent Discord user, if the Discord server is supposed to be "the wiki Discord", then it needs to act like the extension of the community that it's supposed to be. Corn lost the privilege to be a part of this community for very good reasons. As an extension of the community, it makes no sense to allow his presence on the server while still disallowing it here. If he wants back in, we already have a process he is welcome to go through to regain access. Simple as that. Until he goes through it, permabans on the wiki should extend to Discord.

Speaking more generally, I don't think sysops should, by default, be moderators on the Discord server. It's fine to label them as "sysops", but in case people aren't aware, sysops are not moderators, so it makes sense to promote moderators on Discord via a separate process. There may be some overlap with the sysops, but there needn't be. It makes no sense to me that I have full authority to ban people or take other action on Discord despite popping in maybe once a month, while people who are modeling good behavior on a daily basis in there have no ability to take action. —Aichon— 16:05, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

My thoughts/decisions as creator of the discord server

I did not expect to wake up this morning to see things like "1280+ messages since 5:30pm". I did not expect to be @ed a zillion and a half times. Stelar has already disabled @everyone and @here for anyone who isn't a sysop, which I formally endorse.

I originally intended the discord server to be an extension of the wiki; however, it's not officially affiliated with Urban Dead or the wiki. If Kevan appears, I'll hand it right on over to him, but until then I am technically sole dictator on the server.

Because Corn is permabanned on the wiki, I've banned him from the discord and deleted all of his messages. I reserve the right to ban others.

I'm hereby deleting the #off-topic channel, and implementing a policy that the wiki discord is for discussions of relevance to the game, wiki and Urban Dead only. I'm not gonna go through and delete prior messages that qualify as off-topic (although I might if I have time), but will delete ones henceforth which aren't of relevance to the wiki or game.

I 100% hear what Aichon's saying above. I'm leaving sysops with powers for the moment, since my intention was never for sysops to be moderators, but for them to be readily identifiable (to answer wiki questions etc.), and to be able to assist me in moderating if they so choose. I'll try to do better being sole confirmed moder-tator.

I've sent a message equivalent to the above on the server as well, and pointed people here if they have further comments. I'll try to check in frequently over the next few days. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 18:10, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm fine with you taking the role of moderator on the discord, sounds like a good option, as long as you're happy taking responsibility for stuff like this.

However I personally don't believe ban lengths (particularly permabans) should carry over to Discord straight off the bat. There are uses the channel can have in allowing permabanned users asking to be let back onto the wiki via A/DE through it's regular channels, ie. Someone puts the request in on their behalf. The fact that Cornholioo has made an alt to achieve this himself (a precedent from Izumi's A/DE that we are inclined to unfortunately allow) is something I see as a side effect to outright mirroring UDWiki's ban system onto Discord. They are different platforms. THE CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER 22:08, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

A fair point. But currently, a permabanned user could email a sysop for an appeal, no? (Also, what messages pop up for a permabanned user? Anything at all?)--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 00:42, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd be fine with a user who's permabanned joining the discord for the purpose of finding a sysop or other user to privately message and ask for them to file a permaban de-escalation on their behalf. (This is assuming discord is an easier venue to do so than, say, email.) Corn didn't do this — he joined the discord to chat about Urban Dead (and then about other stuff), hence the ban. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 17:52, 17 August 2018 (UTC)