UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/AegisTyra vs Dhavid Grohl

AegisTyra versus Team Zombie Hardcore in general, and Duke Cage and Dhavid Grohl in particular.

The page Team_Zombie_Hardcore/MOST_SUCK_Page contains several slurs against myself, Violet Begonia, the Philosophe Knights, and Amber Waves of Pain. It makes several entirely unfounded accusations against myself of zerging, several attacks on the personal level, and an entirely unfounded accusation that I am pursuing a one-man war against TZH, and have been doing so since I first started playing Urban Dead. I request that all such deliberately inflammatory content be removed from the Team Zombie Hardcore page, and subpages, and an immediate apology. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A11an0n (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

Do you specify anyone in particular you would like to arbitrate? --DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION-- 14:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Someone who has had as little interaction with myself and TZH as possible, preferably. --AegisTyra 15:01, 18 November 2009 (GMT)

This is a completely open and shut case, accordingly I'll volunteer to arbitrate. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 15:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no problems with Iscariot arbitrating. --AegisTyra 15:25, 18 November 2009 (GMT)

Other users should continue to volunteer to arbitrate in case the TZH representatives do not agree to me. Has anyone informed the named members of TZH of the existence of this case? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 15:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I am willing to arbitrate as well, for as long as I still have the chance, before his great magnificence takes my right to arby away.--Thadeous Oakley 15:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Kidding of course. --Thadeous Oakley 15:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Duke Cage and Dhavid Grohl have been informed. --AegisTyra 15:43, 18 November 2009 (GMT)

As a user who Thad suggests should be less sheep like, I'm willing to arbie. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Lawl.--Thadeous Oakley 19:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't care who does it as long as its not the first person that Aegis jumped all over (Iscariot). That just reeks of a set up. You could have at least waited more than 2 minutes to respond to him AT, you dope. This whole thing is complete bullshit. We have the right to put whatever we want on our own wiki pages. The page is about our enemies. Aegis Tyra is an enemy, mainly because he's an impotent fool who whines constantly about everything, especially us and his tiny little... well you get the idea. That Aegis has even done this is hilarious. --Dhavid Grohl 19:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

(This is what arbies are for: Working out issues between users that are not handled by explicit rules.) --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 19:50, 18 November 2009 (BST)

This is covered by explicit rules, the Specific Page Editing Guidelines. Fair enough, never expected to be accused of a conspiracy. I'd recommend you select Rosslessness then TZH. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 19:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

This ain't my first rodeo Bob. We have won arbitration before. About this issue in fact. The TZH page is a group page, and doesn't have to be NPOV. It is subjective, clearly. We claim that our members can fly, and make it rain BBQ ribs. We are allowed to make enemy pages, and on those pages we can make whatever accusations we want, we can describe our enemies in any way we please. Worse treatment has been given to TZH for over 4 years now by every group who has decided to jump on the hate bandwagon. AT isn't the first, and he dang well won't be the last. All that said, I have changed my mind. I will not accept any member of a PKer group to arbitrate this case, if they have a member in the Philosophe Knights, the Spartans, the CGR, the RRF, or any random PKer group like those bullshit zerg gentlmen's club and beaver hunt they don't get to arbitrate for us. I would also like to point out that Aegis has demanded that we apologize, which we won't regardless of what happens here because we have done nothing wrong. --Dhavid Grohl 19:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Well lets see if anyone else volunteers. Which arbies case are you talking about?, because I can only find the one where the ruling was overturned due to (Um) Nalikill overstepping the boundaries of arbitration. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll volunteer and I promise to rule impartially. However I'll require that both sides make their case to me as though I'm totally clueless about the specifics of their conflict, as in fact I'm totally clueless about the specifics.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 21:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I will also volunteer to arbie. If it pleases TZH, I don't have any PKer alts; if it pleases AT, I have had no contact with TZH in-game or out of game. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 22:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I volunteer! I don't even play anymore so I don't care about in-game or meta-game hatred stuff.-- SA 22:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no issues with any arbitrators who have come forward. I leave the decision to you, TZH. --AegisTyra

I have some confusion, since it has been years since I was in arbitration for anything, do we even have to accept? I would rather not give this tool anymore legitimacy than I have to. AT is a bottom feeder, someone who has become increasingly beneath my notice. If we don't have to accept, then I don't accept. If we have to, I would like to see Giles and Maverick to the arbitration. --Dhavid Grohl 15:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to accept. But they can keep the case going until you accept it.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 15:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Minor (and possibly purely semantic) correction: they can start the case in spite of him not accepting it. Cyberbob  Talk  17:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I want a link to the "clear cut rules" someone mentioned earlier before I accept. --Dhavid Grohl 17:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

There aren't really any rules for the arbitrated, but this page has the rest of the arbies guidelines. Reminding you of my offer to arbitrate.-- SA 18:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Jesus H. Christ. I will offer to represent TZH. I have a Philosophe Knight and a death cultist and could win this case entirely in TZH's favour in five minutes. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 17:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well I like the sound of that. Maybe this PK ain't so bad after all. I'll take Iscariot, or Rosslessness at his recommendation. Or any one of the other guys that mentioned it earlier. Can I file a counter suit that says AT has to suck my balls, you know, ala South Park with Cartman and Kyle? I feel that his butthurt rant here, and everywhere else, and his attempt to get all legal on my ass and then trying to make me apologize fits that kind of punishment. AND, that episode of South Park was hilarious, this from a guy who doesn't even really like that show. Oh, and BALLS TO THE WHALLS! --Dhavid Grohl 20:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Dhavid, you have to make what you say completely stupid-proof on this page so there can be no doubt as to what you mean. I can't really arbitrate any more given I've made a statement showing a leaning towards one side in this. I would recommend you take Rosslessness as arbitrator, if you want me to represent you you'll have to state that and get Duke Cage to agree. As far as counter cases go, you can create one just like AT did, but you're on your own with that. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 20:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I will give Duke a text message and see if he can get on. In the meantime, I officially accept Rosslessness, but again, of anyone else I have mentioned would be fine as well. You people need to learn to have some freakin' fun. --Dhavid Grohl 20:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I accept Rosslessness as an arbitrator also. --AegisTyra 23:01, 19 November 2009 (GMT)

Right. if you both accept me, please confirm below, and Ill get this case started on Monday. Please take the weekend to look at previous arbitration cases, to see how we normally set things out, and the information I'm likely to request. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 08:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I hereby confirm that I accept Rosslessness as arbitrator of this case. --AegisTyra 01:07, 21 November 2009 (GMT)

Rosslessness is acceptable. So I accept. But, of course, with the note that this whole thing is under protest, since AT started it. --Dhavid Grohl 16:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Arbitration Introduction

Right, just to say, that I'm almost ready and will be asking for your opening statements in a few hours. Your opening statements are there to put your argument across, not argue with the other parties, you'll have an opportunity to discuss their comments later. Bear in mind that if you make a claim, or want to refer to anything please provide some sort of evidence to back it up. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 12:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

AegisTyra Opening Statement

My reason for arbitration is simple - TZH and my old group (I am now a Gore Corps member, just haven't gotten around to editing my userpage to reflect this), Spartans, have a long history of warfare - founded on the Spartan's hatred of their text-abusing, zerging ways that bring shame to PKers everywhere, and has resulted in many of their characters being ignore-listed or zerg-listed. When TZH returned to Brainstock, and announced it in [1], I publicly took issue with their claims to be pro-survivor, and innocent of their crimes, and made my views clear in the linked thread. I also have a personal grievance with TZH, as when I first joined UrbanDead (under the name A11an0n), I did so in North Blythville. This was before I was aware of the metagaming community, so understandably, I was more than a little surprised to be repeatedly killed by TZH characters and text-abused. TZH claim that the characters involved (Horny Horny Hippo - currently tagged as a member of the "Whalberg River Patrol" and Horny Polar Bear) are not affiliated with TZH, but this [2] would appear to show otherwise. Note, if you will, the date of TZH's return to Brainstock, and the date of the edit to remove Polar Bear from the Dhestroyer's wiki page. TZH have made several claims on Team_Zombie_Hardcore/MOST_SUCK_Page that I am: A zerger (untrue, no proof whatsoever provided); A text raper (untrue, no proof whatsoever AGAIN); A new character belonging to "Steeeeeve" (Untrue, no proof provided); AND a new character belonging to "April Ivy" who apparently wore fake TZH tags (untrue, no proof provided)

They have also made personal insults against myself, the Philosophe Knights, Violet Begonia, and Amber Waves of Pain.

I would like TZH to remove the MOST SUCK PAGE, publicly apologize for the gross misconduct it represents towards myself, the Philosophe Knights, Violet, and Amber Waves. While I am all for the idea of Group pages being exempt from *most* content restrictions, this kind of graphical abuse and utterly untrue claims of zerging should NOT be allowed.

Dhavid Grohl Opening Statement

Likewise a place for Dhavid Grohl to explain why he has come to arbitration and what he wants from the process

Ladies and Gentlemen of the court, first, let me thank you for your presence here today, and your open minds. Is it true that TZH relentlessly assualts Aegis Tyra and his zerg armies? Yes, it is true. Is it true that we have written great works profiling him for the rest of Malton to see on our "Most Suck" page? Yes, this is also true. But let me point out some things for your consideration today.

1) This is a wiki issue, hence the wiki arbitration. So, Aegis Tyra's many useless and impotent referrals to other sites, lists, and whatever is pointless and inconsequential to this argument. It is at best an ad-hominem attack against myself and TZH to impune our character, in an effort to get you fine folks to side with him.

2) We have done nothing to break wiki rules. Our pages, subreferenced under our own master group page is for TZH use to design and maintain as we see fit. Nothing there violates the user policies of the wiki. No rules have been broken. Group pages, as well as sub-pages are POV, and what you will find on the "Most Suck" page is indeed, our point of view.

3) The great hypocrisy of what Aegis Tyra has done here. On the one hand he maligns us for posting things about him that he considers fiction. And then, in the next breath he maligns TZH, here, in arbitration no less, for things that we consider fiction. He claims that TZH'ers text rape. This is false. No member of TZH has ever text raped, there have been dirty, mocking text attacks, but none of them were either explicit, or maliciously sexual in nature. As well, he has accused TZH members of zerging. And yet none of us have zerged. He has no proof of this, only consequential evidence that wouldn't hold up in any court. Just because TZH has been added to "lists" on other sites is meaningless, these sights do not represent the majority opinion here or in Malton. In fact, they represent nothing but the biased judgements of the groups which run these boards and make up the moderator elite. These "lists" are a tool by those who would seek to destroy the second oldest group in Malton (TZH), perhaps because of jealousy, or because they suck.

4) I would also like to point out Aegis Tyra's track record here on the wiki. He has A) Failed to have this page speedy deleted, something he tried before, B) Impersonated me here on the wiki, multiple times (for which he was warned) and C) Has never once attempted to contact TZH for any sort of diplomacy. As well, he lies to you about his character A11an0n. No one in TZH has ever heard of this character. I have inquried to all active members of TZH, and some inactive members I keep in touch with and not only has no one heard of him, but he was not found on a single contacts list.

5) Aegis Tyra is a liar, and a whiney fool. He would seek to use the wiki to his ends of destroying our group, something he has been openly attempting to do for almost a year now. How sad. His mad quest cost him his relationship with the Spartans, a group that we have little issue with now that they have gotten rid of the chaff.

6) Consider the implications of what he has said. He admits that he endorses freedom for "most" content under user pages. Which seems reasonable, afterall, somethings have to be restricted (sexually explicit content for example). But what Aegis is proposing is censorship! Thats right, he would have you censor me, beyond the bounds of the already well established wiki law. Would you have this great place be degraded into the likes of one of the sad and pathetic forums where people are "blacklisted" and censored constantly? What comes next then? Would he have us burn books? Or perhaps he would see people banned simply for taking issue against him! What AT proposes is tyranny, and I say that we maximize freedom, not stifle it as he admits to desiring here.

7) Also, I challenge you to visit the MOST SUCK page and to not have a pretty fun time. Its totally awesome, in every way. And hilarious. And in a universe where beauty is truth, and humor is beautiful, isn't what you read there really the truth? Think about it. Mmm?

In conclusion ladies and gentlemen, do what is obviously right. Find Aegis Tyra's request to be exactly what it is, stupid and pointless. Heck, find him in contempt or something else. To my accuser I have one message: Get Bent. To the rest of you, good day. --Dhavid Grohl 18:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Pointless Middle header

Middle header, I'll ask you each to offer a rebuttle to the others opening statement and ask a few of my own questions below.

AegisTyra's Rebuttal

"Is it true that TZH relentlessly assualts Aegis Tyra and his zerg armies? Yes, it is true. 
Is it true that we have written great works profiling him for the rest of Malton to see on our "Most Suck" page?
Yes, this is also true."

You have NO proof of this blatant falsehood whatsoever. I maintain ONE character, AegisTyra. If I wish to play a different style, then I move that character to a different group - hence my joining the Gore Corps recently. I have NO alts. I have never zerged.

"Aegis Tyra's many useless and impotent referrals to other sites, lists, and whatever is pointless and inconsequential to this argument. 
It is at best an ad-hominem attack against myself and TZH to impune our character, 
in an effort to get you fine folks to side with him."

It is not an "ad-hominem" attack. It is an illustration of the character of TZH.

" We have done nothing to break wiki rules. Our pages, subreferenced under our own master group page is for TZH use
to design and maintain as we see fit. Nothing there violates the user policies of the wiki.
No rules have been broken.  Group pages, as well as sub-pages are POV, and what you will find on the "Most Suck" page
is indeed, our point of view." 

It may be from your point of view. But there has come a point on that page where "POV" crosses into "blatant lies and insults".

" On the one hand he maligns us for posting things about him that he considers fiction.
And then, in the next breath he maligns TZH, here, in arbitration no less, for things that we consider fiction.
He claims that TZH'ers text rape. This is false. No member of TZH has ever text raped, there have been dirty, mocking text attacks, 
but none of them were either explicit, or maliciously sexual in nature. 
As well, he has accused TZH members of zerging. And yet none of us have zerged. He has no proof of this, 
only consequential evidence that wouldn't hold up in any court. 
Just because TZH has been added to "lists" on other sites is meaningless, 
these sights do not represent the majority opinion here or in Malton."

I did not claim you text raped. I claimed, and the Ignore List backs me up, that you text abuse. And yes, I claim you zerg. The Zerg List will back me up here. And amongst the metagaming community, the community that this wiki supports, the majority of people DO know of the Zerg List and Rogue's Gallery. This isn't a court. This is a game.

" I would also like to point out Aegis Tyra's track record here on the wiki.
He has A) Failed to have this page speedy deleted, something he tried before,
B) Impersonated me here on the wiki, multiple times (for which he was warned) 
and C) Has never once attempted to contact TZH for any sort of diplomacy." 

Yes, I did indeed try to have the page deleted. I was told to bring it to Arbitration. And here I am. Is not being fully aware of proper wiki process a reason to reject my case? No. I changed ONE post of yours, on my talk page, and then after the warn, proceeded to delete all TZH posts to that date on my talk page, as they were nothing but vile insults and accusations. I freely admit to editing the MOST SUCK PAGE once, to remove certain insults on it. The only other warn on my talk page is from nearly 2 years ago, and has nothing to do with TZH, and everything to do with the fact that it was on my birthday, while drunk, and I apologised to the Philosophe Knights, which they accepted. And no, I didn't try and contact you for diplomacy. I have no wish to do so.

" Aegis Tyra is a liar, and a whiney fool. He would seek to use the wiki to his ends of destroying our group,
something he has been openly attempting to do for almost a year now. How sad.
His mad quest cost him his relationship with the Spartans, a group that we have little issue with now that they have gotten rid of the chaff."  

Ad-hom, ad-hom, ad-hom. And, although I cannot link you directly to the page, as it is password-protected: an excerpt from the Spartan Kill List on their forum:

1. Declared War:
   1. Persians - Persian slaves in their many forms
   2. Team Zombie Hardcore - although a bit slow at the moment, anyone that insults a Spartan insults us all. TZH has ran a aggressive campaign against Brother AegisTyra and have thus declared war on us.

" Consider the implications of what he has said. He admits that he endorses freedom for "most" content under user pages.
 Which seems reasonable, afterall, somethings have to be restricted (sexually explicit content for example).
But what Aegis is proposing is censorship! Thats right, he would have you censor me,
beyond the bounds of the already well established wiki law. Would you have this great place
be degraded into the likes of one of the sad and pathetic forums where people are "blacklisted" and censored constantly?
What comes next then? Would he have us burn books? Or perhaps he would see people banned simply for taking issue against him!
What AT proposes is tyranny, and I say that we maximize freedom, not stifle it as he admits to desiring here.

I do not wish to "limit freedom" or censor you. And wiki law, as the changes that have been made to it over the years show, is by no means perfect. I simply believe that, while POV on user pages is all well and good, there is posting a page in POV, and then there is outright lies, unfounded accusations (which your own page contradicts itself on) and petty insults.

" Also, I challenge you to visit the MOST SUCK page and to not have a pretty fun time.
Its totally awesome, in every way. And hilarious. And in a universe where beauty is truth, and humor is beautiful,
isn't what you read there really the truth? Think about it. Mmm?"

John Keats would roll in his grave. Some humour may well be beautiful, but the kind espoused by your ilk wouldn't be considered beautiful even by fans of *spits* Date Movie.

His concluding statement says it all. He speaks to you with a honeyed tongue, then throws insults at me. Sophistry, even now. --AegisTyra