UDWiki:Administration/Misconduct

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This page is for the reporting of administrator (sysop) misconduct within the Urban Dead wiki. Sysops are trusted with a considerable number of powers, many of which have the capacity to be abused. In many circumstances, it is possible for a sysop to cause considerable havoc. As such, users are provided this page to report misconduct from the System Operators. For consistency and accountability, sysops also adhere to the guidelines listed here.

Guidelines for System Operator Misconduct Reporting

The charge of Administrative Misconduct is a grave charge indeed. If misconduct occurs, it is important that the rest of the sysop team be able to review the charges as necessary. Any charge of administrative misconduct must be backed up with evidence. The clearest evidence that can be provided for administrative misconduct is a clear discrepancy between the relevant action log (deletion, block, or protection log) and the archives of the relevant administration service page, and this is a minimum standard of evidence admitted in such a tribunal.

Misconduct is primarily related to specific Administrator Services, not standards of behavior. As such, situations including verbal attacks by sysops, while frowned upon, do not constitute misconduct. Sysops on a wiki are in theory supposed to have no more authority than a regular user - they merely have a greater scope of power. Personality conflicts between sysops and regular users should be treated just as a personality conflict between two regular users. If, in the course of such a conflict, a sysop abuses their administrative powers by banning a user, blocking or deleting a page without due process, that is misconduct, and should be reported to this page.

There is, however, an exception to this rule - excessive bullying, or attempts to treat the status of sysop as a badge of authority to force a sysop's wishes on the wiki may also come under misconduct. Any accusations of this should come with just as clear evidence, and for such an action to be declared misconduct, there should be a clear pattern of behavior across a considerable period of time.

All discussion of misconduct should occur on this page, not the talk page - any discussion on the talk page will be merged into this page once discovered. Once a misconduct case has been declared closed, a member of the sysop team will mete out the punishment (if deemed necessary), and then move the case to the Archive.

Administrative Abilities

For future reference, the following are sysop specific abilities (ie things that sysops can do that regular users cannot):

• Deletion (ie complete removal, as opposed to blanking) of pages (including Images and any other page-like construct on this wiki), through the delete tab on the top of any deletable construct.
• Undeletion (ie returning a page, complete with page history) of pages (including any other page-like construct on this wiki (Images are not included as deletion of an image is not undoable), through the undelete tab on the top of any undeletable construct
• Protection of pages (ie removing the ability of regular users to edit or move a particular page), through the protect tab on the top of any protectable construct.
• Moving of pages (ie changing a page complete with the page's history to a different namespace).
• Warning users reported in Vandal Banning.
• Banning of Users (ie removing the ability of a specific user to edit the wiki), through the Block User page.
• Editing of Protected pages by any means.
• Research IP activity using the CheckUser extension.
• (Bureaucrats Only) Promotion (providing the above abilities) of User to Sysop/Bureaucrat status.

If none of the above abilities were abused and the case doesn't apply for the exception mentioned above, then this is a case for UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration or UDWiki:Administration/Vandal Banning.

Example of Misconduct Proceedings

Sysop seems to have deleted Bad Page, but I can't find it in the Archives of either the Deletion or Speedy Deletion pages. The Logs show a deletion at 18:06, October 24th 2005 by a System Operator, but this does not seem to be backed up by a request for that deletion. I would like to know why this is the case -- Reporter 13:42, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

The deletion was asked through my talk page. I give my Talk page as proof of this. -- Sysop 13:42, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

You know the rules, Sysop. All deletion requests have to go through the Speedy Delete page. Next time, please inform the user where they should lodge the request. This is a clear violation, will you accept a one-day ban as punishment? -- Sysop2 13:42, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

I'm not liking it, but I clearly broke the rules, I'll accept the ban. I'll certainly remember due process next time... Sysop 13:42, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

As punishment for failing to follow due process, Sysop has been banned for a period of 24 hours. This will be moved to the Archive shortly. -- Sysop2 13:42, 28 Oct 2005 (BST)

Misconduct Cases Currently Under Consideration

User:A Helpful Little Gnome

Deleted United_Zombies_of_Malton.

As deletions are a sysop only power this is a misconduct rather than a vandalism case.

Gnome deleted UZM following a arbitration ruling by Cheese. As has been ruled approximately a thousand times in the past, arbitration cannot override established wiki processes. By following this ruling Gnome breaks from the established deletions process and summarily ignores those users who have voted keep on the (then) ongoing deletions case. Even though I noted this at the bottom of the case, he still decided to exert his authority as a sysop against the community.

This is an act of moderation.

Contrary to what Cheese states on the deletions page it was not a speedy deletion, a speedy deletion would have been illegal due to people voting keep, and Gnome's own edit summary on the deletion log clearly states he was deleting in accordance with the ruling.

Request ruling of misconduct, the undeletion of UZM and the restoration of the deletions vote to allow established process to continue. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 10:10, 30 September 2008 (BST)

The page creator has saved all he wanted to for re-use in line with the arbie's ruling and has asked for it to be deleted himself. There is absolutely no need to keep the page anymore and leaving it until the end of the due process would be almost as bueracratically petty as this case!--Honestmistake 10:42, 30 September 2008 (BST)

The page creator asked for a speedy delete. As a current deletion case was underway that had at least one keep, a speedy couldn't have happened. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 11:19, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Actually... the bureaucratic mess came about when an Arbitration was decided upon which overrode the wiki process. There was a MAJOR conflict right there, when Cheese said -- in spite of the page in question being at the time up for deletions voting -- that UZM would be deleted. IMNSHO he had no right to say that. And, I am unfortunately compelled to agree that AHLG, therefore, had no call to follow that Arby decision... And, all this bullcrap and red-tape clusterfarking has just resulted in more confusion, more ambiguity and more pointless drama.

Now, I'm not clear as to whether the page's author voting speedydelete automatically makes it go back to the speedydeletion queue. I was actually under the impression that it did... Which would mean Iscariot's premise for this Misconduct is mistaken. But I really don't know... hopefully someone with more experience and knowledge does know. --WanYao 12:46, 30 September 2008 (BST)

To illustrate what Wan and I are getting at here, if arbitration can circumvent wiki process, it would only take three users to break the entire wiki, two to engage in the case and one arbitrator. If that arbitrator's decisions would override anything else, he could promote/demote sysops, ban users, or (as here) delete any page on this wiki that they choose.

On the owner/speedy point. I was under the impression that only one case for deletion could be open at once. This would be common sense to stop the deletions pages being flooded. As soon as Zeug requests a move to speedy, all current votes attached to it would follow, and the keeps would bring it straight back to A/D. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 13:08, 30 September 2008 (BST)

If the author was the only person to edit it (includes minor junky spell-fix edits or whatever) then he can A/SD it at anytime regardless of other people's votes. If anyone else edited it (and i have a feeling jorm and co did and got them reverted) then once it's got a keep vote its gotta stay on A/D.--xoxo 13:40, 30 September 2008 (BST)

I had edits on that page J3D ;)

The whole point is, if there can only be one case open per page at one time in the deletion process, then those votes would follow. Speedy states that any keep vote stops a SD and moves the page back to the normal deletions queue. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 13:50, 30 September 2008 (BST)

NOT MISCONDUCT Iscariot - you are an idiot and a shit disturber. Stop making drama and go back to trolling Talk:Suggestions. I'm reposting what I posted on the Deletion page.

Seriously, what is wrong with you people? You all go "forum shopping" posting this on deletions and arbitration then complain when you get two conflicting results? What did you think was going to happen? Personally, I think the arbitration decision should stand over this deletion voting because both the author and the community had an equal opportunity to voice their concerns. Voting always runs the risk of meat/sock puppets while discussion and discourse are more fair. And if in this instance you all decide that the policy/procedure should trump the compromise and discussion of arbitration then you will be basically saying "We don't want to think for ourselves. We want to be slaves to policy." I know arby's is "broken", but it is the best system we have that tries to be fair and balanced. By saying that wiki procedure trumps a legitimate arbitration then we might as well post Arby's on this page next to UZM. --– Nubis 21:48, 29 September 2008 (BST)

I'd watch what I were saying there fucko. I do not troll the suggestions page. A troll is after eliciting an emotional reaction, I just want fucking morons to go away, I don't care to find out whether they cry or not. Also, at no point have I forum shopped or began a arbitration case about this issue until this item of misconduct occurred. So how's about you stop trying imply that I have some sort of presence in this whole affair as some overlord puppeteer and go and look at it objectively. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 15:40, 30 September 2008 (BST)

I'd be a little smarter when trying to make up insults, "fucko". Otherwise you're just going to get laughed at. :< --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 16:01, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Sorry, didn't realize you were a whiny little cunt and that you were sensitive about the T word. But let me get this straight, Wan posts the Deletion request, Jorm/MOB start an arbitration, and you just happen to be the one that is so butthurt by the injustice in the system that you are the one that brings misconduct charges up? Not buying it, drama queen. Also, if you were so dead set on the VOTE being the final say so why the fuck did you offer to arbitrate?

I offer to arbitrate. -- St. Iscariot GC PK WTE 21:36, 22 September 2008 (BST) GO AWAY. --– Nubis ^NWO 16:42, 30 September 2008 (BST)

And let me add that 2 or 3 users can not "break" the wiki with arbitration unless the arbitrator they pick is a complete moron. The whole point of arbitration is to come to a sensible compromise. If these phantom 2 or 3 evil users that Iscariot is trying to protect us from tried something like this you can be sure that one of us evil sysops would abuse our powers and ban them. (AM I RITE? LOL) --– Nubis ^NWO 15:01, 30 September 2008 (BST)

"2 or 3 users can not "break" the wiki with arbitration unless the arbitrator they pick is a complete moron"...or unless the arbitrator that they get to select is in on it? Did you even think about that? What happens when The Dead decide to run this system you've just given your approval to delete the DHPD page without the DHPD even being involved?

And "one of us evil sysops would abuse our powers and ban them", yes, go ahead and espouse the fact that certain sysops see the voted policies and guidelines of this wiki to be purely optional, way to attempt to restore the community trust right there... -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 15:40, 30 September 2008 (BST)

This shows how little you understand the system. So, you are saying that if the Dead put the DHPD page up for deletion and got everyone to vote it deleted that you would rather that stood (the holy policy!) than if someone from the Dead and DHPD picked an AGREED UPON arbitrator and plead their cases? Because I'm curious what argument could be used to sway someone that BOTH SIDES would agree upon to completely negate one group over the other. Your knee jerk reactionary response of POLICY UBER ALLES is disturbing.

Your example is absurd, by the way. I guess you don't read talk pages much these days? If these two groups that "practically tore this place apart" can actually get along and joke on the wiki then maybe there is hope yet. Not to mention that not even the Dead could brute force a policy through or did you forget Kevan stepping in and vetoing the meat puppet policy? But no no, you continue running in fear, Chicken Little, that these mysterious evil users will destroy the wiki.

What really destroys the faith in the community is sysops that ignore common sense and power trip hiding behind policy. I know AHLG gets a lot of shit for not being a policy hardass (and sometimes being too soft of a touch) but at least he isn't afraid to consider that maybe feelings and intent matter more than vaguely worded red tape. --– Nubis ^NWO 16:42, 30 September 2008 (BST)

User:Grim_s

For this edit -- removing the historical event nomination for User:RadioSurvivor -- where he cited the Policy for Historical Events.

In fact, the policy on Historical Events reads:

"Historical Events are very important in-game events that have made an impact on the way the game is played or otherwise contributed to the history of Malton."

The character of Michael Corsair, aka Uncle Zeddie, existed in and impacted Malton, in-game -- as well as via the metagame. One might argue that it was more meta- than in-game? That's actually highly debatable -- but quite irrelevant, even if it is the case. Most (possibly all?) historical events have had metagame elements, often very significantly, and this event was no different. Thus, it's only a matter of degree, not of kind.

Additonally, the character and his "broadcasts" (which took place in- and out-of-game) clearly "contributed to the history of Malton."

Furthermore:

"Within two weeks of a nomination, the Event must be approved by 2/3 of the voters, with a minimum of 15 voters for a nomination to pass. The only allowable votes are Yes and No."

(Apologies, I initially cited the wrong line. Corrected.)

Grim was in blatant violatation of this Policy by not allowing voting to continue, and allowing the community to decide on this nomination, for the stated 2 week period.

I request not only that Grim's sysop powers be removed -- as he clearly abused these powers, in contravention of very clear policy on this matter -- but that the Historical Event nomination be reinstated and voting be allowed to continue, as per the policy.

That is all. --WanYao 17:40, 28 September 2008 (BST)

BRACE FOR TEXT WALL CONTAINING MANY VULGARITIES AND GRAMMATICAL ERRORS --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 18:53, 28 September 2008 (BST)

Before this goes any further, I want to say a few things. I don't have a lot of time, so it might be terse.

Firstly, I want to apologise for my angry outbursts earlier when I first saw the removal of this nomination. Unfortunately, I think one can understand why I was so furious. I do not, however, take back my assertion that Grim made a very fundamentally bad and, policy-wise, dead wrong call. And, unfortunately, a "Misconductable" wrong call....

However... this also needs to be said, I think... I'm gonna "out" Grim... Ya know what? Grim is a good guy. And I actually like and respect Grim. Yeah... it's true. Moreover, I am convinced that Grim really does have the interests of the wiki and the community at heart in all he does.

That being said, though... I think there is problem. And I think that problem is, at least partially, that Grim is not really in touch with the UD player-community. And that community includes people who really only play in-game, and/or those who use the wiki on vary levels, and/or those who use forums, and/or IRC, and/or -- those for whom part of this "community" revolves around a very popular and influential metagame video-blog...

This, combined with an unfortunate tendency at times towards heavy-handedness and unilateralism... And we have a bit of a problem... Which has led us here, to this Misconduct case.

Anyway... I'm not here to grind an axe. I'm not here to call names and sling mud. I've explained already why I am here. It's my (possibly naive) hope that the majority of the community will also feel and act similarly. Thanks. --WanYao 21:06, 28 September 2008 (BST)

Sorry Wannie, but you know as well as anyone else that Grim does NOT permit challenges to His Authority. Expect to be ravaged at full force. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 21:15, 28 September 2008 (BST)

Misconduct I was torn initially on whether this was misconduct or simply vandalism. It crosses the line where he sites "Policy" and then incites others to "Bitch and Moan", indicating that he is standing behind his perceived authority as a sysop and bureaucrat. However, as I fully expect a flambastic response citing a previous history between Grim and myself, I would expect other sysops to take the time to fully evaluate the situation before ruling either direction. Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 21:33, 28 September 2008 (BST)

To answer points bellow... I heard Uncle Zeddy a number of times... IN GAME... I even used an Alt to try and hunt him down at one point... all within game, as I don't participate in boards that had any mention of uncle Zeddy except for the wiki and the game itself, the nomination obviously DOES have something to do with the game as Wan says on the nomination page. Grim's opinion (regardless of popularity) is wrong, and when you are wrong sometimes you are just wrong and trying to prove (or disprove) it is merely a semantic exercise in futility. Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 02:50, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Misconduct Here's the deal. There was no reason to remove that nomination. It wasn't like putting deletions up for deletion or part of some edit war or even that ridiculous of a nomination. (I think Uncle Zeddie deserves something like that) so there was no action "for the best interests of the community." He removed it because he didn't like it. Now, a normal user would have just voted NO and bitched about it (which is what he should have done). If a normal user had removed it they would be vandal escalated and the nomination restored. By removing the nomination entirely (and citing "policy" to justify his actions) that is an abuse of his perceived authority. True there were no sysop "powers" involved, but Misconduct isn't just misusing the ban/delete/protect tabs. It's abusing the authority given by the community to further your own personal agenda. What makes this case especially deplorable is the high and mighty attitude that Grim has. He tries (and usually succeeds) in being very impartial if not a hard ass. This time he was very wrong. What makes me jump on the Misconduct wagon is that Grim wouldn't have "backed down" and put it back up. He was rather insulting by putting up the "bitch about it here" section too. Now while this is hardly demotion worthy it really should make people want to reform the Misconduct system and the Demotion system. Here is a serious abuse of authority that if deemed Misconduct will mean nothing on his record and not count toward any serious punishment. So what's the real point of any Misconduct cases until you (the community) make it mean something? Of course, by the same token I am not going to vote Not Misconduct and make it seem as though I condone these actions.--– Nubis ^NWO 01:19, 29 September 2008 (BST)

It was an external event. A single character did exist in game, but the majority, the overwhelming majority of the event was on third party websites. Policy clearly states it must be in game, and a person wandering around broadcasting, if that ever happened (And ive seen nothing to suggest that ever happened, or that anything that might have happened in game was actually done by this individual). Thus i removed the nomination. Anyone can do that, the fact that i happen to be a sysop is irrelevant. The complaints section was just that, for complaints so you had a coherent place to bitch and moan, and discuss matters. All this is is an attempt to force through an event that doesnt meet policy into a meaningless category. If you want to add it, feel free to change policy on the issue to make it fit this nomination. Until then, shut up.

I did not edit any protected pages. I did not use any administrative abilities. I simply removed it for failing to meet policy. Anyone could have done what i did. Yes i added the title sysop (Because thats what i am), but anyone can remove a nomination if it fails to met the rules. Whats interesting is that no one has shown how i was wrong, just said i was. Im just sufffering here because the people want something included that doesnt actually meet the rules, and are more than willing to crucify me, a less than popular individual, to get it. If you want to change policy, i will support it, and i would even vote for it under new policy, but policy as it stands currently does not allow it. No matter how much you bitch and moan, no matter how much you complain and try to crucify me, no matter what you do, unless you can demonstrate that it was an in game event, significantly so, i wont back down on this issue. If you can do that, i would gladly do so. However, you didnt even bother trying to discuss matters, so why should i? If you want to accuse me of something, feel free to accuse me of vandalism, but this sure isnt misconduct. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 02:23, 29 September 2008 (BST)

I'd like to submit if I may a proto-second-case against him for having gone and removed the stuff again despite both the existence of this case and the rulings of Misconduct already tendered by Nubis and Conndraka. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 02:13, 29 September 2008 (BST)

I hadnt seen this case at that point. Ive stopped touching it until this matter is resolved. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 02:23, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Okey dokey. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 02:32, 29 September 2008 (BST)

I'm sorry... but I have already explained my reasoning. Now, one is free to disagree with me. That's fine. But my reasoning can be found in the nomination itself, and my comments on a couple of votes -- as well as above, in this misconduct case. And I happen to disagree with Grim that this did not also have an in-game impact. Again, I've explained my reasons for that... And I don't see why I should have to repeat myself. --WanYao 02:38, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Im no longer going to mount any form of defense here. Facts are no match for for Nubis's amazing supernatural mind reading powers and their ability to see things that i dont even recall thinking. I am no match for people who wish to assert something is true because it suiots their purposes. If you can provide an iwitness or screenshot of one of the broadcasts, ill cheerfully admit i was wrong on the matter and there it would have ended. This went way too far however. And asking for my demotion on a first offense? After how many years was it as a sysop? Two and a half? Absurd, but pretty much certain to happen because i made a call that may have been wrong, and was certainly unpopular. There was no attempt at discussion after i had done the removal. No attempt at rational discourse regarding this matter (I am partly to blame here for doing it unilaterally, but again, as i believed it was outside the rules on the matter, you know the rules that determine what can go up for voting in the first place, hopefully someone can see where this came from, though i doubt anyone will make the effort). Let me get one thing out. I enjoyed what he did. I found them funny. Saying that i removed them because i hate themn, i hate zeddie, and i hate fun is about as valid as claiming that the sky is bright red with pink blotchy polka dots at all times everywhere on the earth. In any case, do whatever the hell you like. This isnt going to be misconduct because i was wrong (Even if it turns out i am), but because people are so unhappy with what i did and refused to do the most basic thing in events where there are disagreements: Work it out rationally before resorting to litigation. If anything, id ask that this case be put on hold for a month so everyone can cool off and rule rationally insetead of in the heat of the moment. Not going to happen though i guess. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 03:09, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Actually... as the one who brought this Misconduct case... I'm perfectly okay with a "cooling off period". I think that might be a good idea. A month might not be necessary: 2 weeks might be enough. But I'll not object to 30 days, it's no skin off my nose, either way. --WanYao 03:24, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Grim i confess to not reading the entire wall of text, but in the bits i did read there was no defence as to why you couldn't simply vote no and bitch, as Nubis suggested. Any reason for this? Because this misconduct case has NOTHING to do with whether or not Radio Survivor deserves historical event or not and i'm sure you recognise that.--xoxo 08:35, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Yes, it should be about misuse of mod powers... which sysop only ability is Grim supposed to have abused? As far as I can see, no-one has been given any special rights to remove "ineligible" historical votes, making this vandal banning material (if done in bad faith), not misconduct -- boxy ^{talk • i} 13:36 29 September 2008 (BST)

Boxy, you have a point and this could probably be handled on A/VB except Grim himself has said that Misconduct cases posted must stand. I bitched about this when someone tried to misconduct him for just posting a comment they didn't like. So he's stuck here in Misconduct and has to face what comes up. I tried to warn you all...

And to GRIM- WHAT? Why should any misconduct case against you get "a cooling off period"? Was there one when you brought a case against Karek for accidentally locking the A/VB page? (Did you try to talk it out before you rushed off to litigation?) Was there one for the case against me when I sarcastically added The Dead as a Pro Survivor group to DH? Did anyone try saying to me maybe I shouldn't do that? Here you go abusing your authority and expecting special treatment that you wouldn't even dream of giving others, but don't mind me I must just be using my psychic powers again.

Why are you saying that there should be an iwitness screenshot for Radio Survivor? Please link any other event that was forced to provide screen shots before VOTING could even be started on them. If you liked RS as much as you said then why not leave the nomination? Why not offer to make him a "special group" nomination if you are so dead set on what counts as an event?--– Nubis ^NWO 13:42, 29 September 2008 (BST)

If this 'cooling off period' happens, will it set precedent? Can I request a 'cooling off period' to any A/VB case against me? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 14:32, 29 September 2008 (BST)

I don't know... It's just an idea... What I do know is that I was FURIOUS when I saw Grim's unilateral removal of the nomination. Which action, unfortunately, falls under what Nubis described: "Misconduct isn't just misusing the ban/delete/protect tabs. It's abusing the authority given by the community to further your own personal agenda". I'm not claiming to read anyone's mind... but his unilateralism, and the citing of policy (imnsho incorrectly) was the reason for my anger -- as well as for bringing this to misconduct. I do regret the anger, but I don't disown it, either....

That being said, I retract my "calls for Grim's resignation"... That schtick was bullshit on my part... As for everything else, well, it's all out there now and the community will have to try to figure it out.

This debacle is, as the saying sorta goes, why we shouldn't do nice things (i.e. put RadioSurvivor up for Historical)? ::le sigh:: --WanYao 18:11, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Misconduct - For the same reasons as Nubis and Conn up there ^. There was no justifiable reason to remove that vote. True it was an external event, but it had an impact nonetheless. The community deserves to have it's opinion. And if they want to vote for it, who are we to stop them? We are sysops not moderators. -- Cheese 20:00, 29 September 2008 (BST)

So you agree that its an external event, and thus ineligable under policy, yet you still move to convict based on... what? It was an external event, as you yourself said. Policy dictates that events be in game events (I am not opposed to changing policy, FYI), not external events. But i somehow have no right to remove it (Except, of course, for the fact i was removing it for violating approved policy). Could you at least try to look like your position is internally consistent? You are a fucking disgrace. Convicting a person of misconduct for... acting within policy! (By your own admission) --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 04:57, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Nitpicking at Cheese's decision won't change his mind or make you seem like an innocent victim. You notice that even though Cheese may think it wasn't an ingame event that he didn't remove the nomination? Did you pick up on that? Are you going to Misconduct him and the rest of us for "not following policy" through inaction? We are still trying to figure out why you thought it was so detrimental to the community to just let it run its' course and see what the users voted. --– Nubis ^NWO 07:29, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Im no longer going to mount any form of defense here. You should watch statements like this when you return and bitch at people for not having "internal consistency" Just sayin'--– Nubis ^NWO 07:35, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Many of the events that have made the list have both internal and external components, while there certainly is an argument that Radio Survivor was not sufficiently in game, you should have expressed your opinion the same as any other user would have, voting no. The fact that there is even this discussion demonstrates the ambiguity surrounding the events worthiness. It's not clear cut, so don't make it out like it is.--xoxo 05:06, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Radio Survivor had an in-game presence/existence, and an in-game impact. One such thing was the in-game man-hunt. What the fuck is so "ambiguous" about that??? --WanYao 05:17, 30 September 2008 (BST) And that's part of the problem. I explained all this in my nomination and in some comments... This is what happens when you try to do something nice in the UD "community"? --WanYao 05:18, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Yes it had an in-game impact, the ambiguity comes from whether or not that impact alone was sufficient for it to be counted as historically significant. Who tried to do something nice for the UD community and what was it? --xoxo 05:21, 30 September 2008 (BST)

I thought it would be way cool to nominate Uncle Zeddie and let the community honour his contributions to the history of Malton... I honestly thought it would be a no-fucking-brainer, and I really didn't think it'd cause all this fucking drama. Like I said, that's why you don't do nice things...

I admit, I thought long and hard about exactly what kind of nomination Radio Survivor deserved. And I came to the conclusion that it was an event. I realised full-well that I was stretching the boundaries of the "traditional" definition of an event -- and I said so. However, that being said, I stretched them... I didn't go outside them or break them. Because it did exist in-game... it affected many different sururbs and lots of players... it inspired a man-hunt participated in by every fucking PKer worth his salt in the game... there was the Radio Survivor Street team... the Dead have admitted to hunting for him... it precipited a change, even if that change was "cultural". It was a fucking event. Even if it wasn't an event as we've typically recognised them before now, that doesn't mean the definition doesn't still apply. It does. --WanYao 08:15, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Wan, I think it would have been easier nominating him as a group. There is no minimum membership listed in the HOLY POLICY on the group page.--– Nubis ^NWO 15:07, 30 September 2008 (BST)