Suggestion talk:20080505 Nail Guns and Nail Gun Clips

Addressing Pgunn's concerns

Again... please read the suggestion. You're seeming to make points which I already addressed in the suggestion itself. I'm not trying to talk you out of your vote - just trying to make sure that you realize I've actually already addressed the concerns you're stating. First: Bullets are aerodynamic for a reason, and they are much denser than nails. Nails are aerodynamic, just like bullets. In fact in many cases more so. They just have a smaller point surface so do less damage, but there is also less air resistance. There are rounds called 'flechette' rounds, which are essentially nails which are fired out of guns for armor piercing capability (they've been used from WW1 to today). I think you're missing a basic premise of how bullets work, from your statmeent that bullets are denser than nails. Bullets are basically shells which have tightly packed gunpowder inside the end. When the hammer hits the end of the bullet, the front cover of the bullet fires out because the gunpowder in the bullet explodes. The 'rear' of the bullet stays behind and is dislodged from the gun and falls to the ground, while the front of the bullet hits the target (without gunpowder in it anymore - other than some gunpowder residue). Basically, you're firing a hollow front half of the bullet. Some bullets have an additional bit of solid metal in the front, and others have a hollow piece of metal in the front (hollow points), but with those few exceptions, this is how most bullets work. Nails (and flechette rounds) on the other hand, are solid all the way through. They are denser when fired and when they hit the target because there is no shell casing left behind. The reason bullets are aerodynamic are two reasons - 1) their shape minimizes air resistance (but a nail or flechette minimizes it even more) and 2) the muzzle of the gun is drilled so that the front part of the bullet 'spins' around while it's fired. That makes up for the fact that it's not as aerodynamic as a nail or flechette, and lets it go farther.

As for deaths caused by nailguns, simply google 'Deaths caused by nailguns' and you'll be surprised at the amount of articles you will find on the subject - mostly from attorneys dealing with wrongful deaths. Here's another article on it [1]

Points of interest in the article on nail gun accidents -

• " Nail gun operators or bystanders may be injured or killed when a nail gun malfunctions or is used improperly. Nail guns are a common tool, and may seem relatively safe compared to tools such as power saws, but in reality they can be very powerful and shoot a sharp projectile (the nail) at great velocities."
• " Nail guns do more than reduce the time and effort required to use a hammer to pound nails into wood. They are also used to fire nails into concrete and steel, something that cannot be done with a simple hand tool. Most nail guns use compressed air to project the nail, but some use explosive cartridges, just like firing a bullet from a firearm."
• "Injuries caused by nail guns include:

· Head and brain injury · Eye injury · Neck injury · Back injury · Fractures · Nails imbedded in bones · Soft tissue injuries · Serious infection · Death"

Oh and in April alone, there were 4 nail gun deaths in Florida, and 5 in Massachussets - and I found that just from a casual web-search. --Tselita 20:38, 5 May 2008 (BST)
A lot of the results for nail gun injuries were on personal injury lawyer sites. That's hardly surprising that they would go on about how evil nail guns are. For safety, nail guns are designed to be used with the muzzle touching the target; they are short-range and inaccurate if a user tries to use one as a projectile weapon. -- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 21:23, 5 May 2008 (BST)

The reasoning for the lawyer sites were because they were for wrongful death cases. Which means a person died as a result of being shot by a nailgun. The lawyers are trying to pass legislation to make nailguns have better safety warning labels, as well as redesigning the existing nailguns to be less capable of being used as a firearm accidentally (or worse, purposefully). Currently, with the lack of safety features in most powder-actuated nailguns sold in hardware stores, nailguns are very deadly. That's the point I'm making - nailguns are good as improvisational weapons ... there wouldn't be wrongful death lawsuits if people don't die from nailgun firings. Not to mention thousands of severe injuries as well. --Tselita 21:45, 5 May 2008 (BST)

Even if you couldn't fire it like a gun, does that really even matter? It would mean you would just have to be close and use it more like a melee weapon, but with ammo. --Some1neelse 00:54, 6 May 2008 (BST)

Question:

If your notion is use of the nail gun as an impromptu weapon, why is its accuracy skill based? If you're going for the basic movie trope of the imperiled character grabbing whatever is at hand to defend himself, why start the thing off at 5%? You're essentially shutting off nail gun use for all characters who don't have firearms proficiency (i.e. all new characters who aren't cops or military). That means the only characters who'd have a shot at using the thing are liable to already have real guns.

In addition to this, as a handgun owner and sport shooter myself, I don't think the skill involved in pistol and nail gun use are particularly compatible. Just my opinion, albeit a reasonably informed opinion.

I'd like to offer this as a counter suggestion: change the starting accuracy of the nail gun to 20% and leave it at that...no skills add to the number later. I'm aware that this is a nerf to your suggestion, at least in terms of straight numbers, but as written the nail gun isn't going to be used by the people who need it most...if indeed it is used by anyone. Thus, the nail gun should not be balanced against the handgun and shotgun, but against starting axes, pool cues, knives, and the like.--Jiangyingzi 04:18, 6 May 2008 (BST)

I made it equivalent of a less-accurate pistol because powder-actuated nailguns operate in a very similar manner to a pistol, and even the nail is fired with the same force as a .22 calibre bullet. And while I do appreciate your suggestion, what you are proposing would be a definite nerf which would render the nailgun essentially useless, at least at 20%. There would be no reason for anyone to ever use it then. It also doesn't make sense to compare the nail gun to an axe or other melee weapon because it does operate like a firearm, both in real life and in the game representation of a nail gun (as I went into significant detail describing in the suggestion). Thank you very much for the counter suggestion, but I don't think I can use it. --Tselita 04:39, 6 May 2008 (BST)

I remain against handgun skills for a nail gun simply because nails are not flechettes; specifically, they lack the tail vanes that make flechettes aerodynamic. The nail head acts as an air brake, in fact, and causes a fired nail to quickly lose velocity and tumble. They'll go a few yards with some force, but they don't maintain velocity at anywhere near the range even a .22 will. This would not keep a nail gun from being dangerous, of course - just use it close up - but I do think it's a valid argument against using handgun skills for nail guns.

Here's a crazy idea...what if Construction added to the nail gun's accuracy instead of firearm skill? I think that makes a weird sort of sense, myself. 20% / 45%, so it doesn't overshadow the fire axe quite so badly. Peer review is one thing, but you also have to pass the all-important Kevan review, and history has proven that he is hard to budge on weapon suggestions. My proposal is as much for his eyes as it is for yours, since this one does look to be on its way to peer reviewed.--Jiangyingzi 23:48, 6 May 2008 (BST)

Not a crazy idea at all - that's actually a very good idea. If it gets to peer review, that would probably be a rather good way of implementing mechanics for the nailgun, so it's good that you are including that comment in your vote. :) --Tselita 00:04, 7 May 2008 (BST)

Question 2

how would this affect barricading? would it make it easier to build a barricade? make the barricades stronger? --Scotw 18:42, 7 May 2008 (BST)

Like it says in the suggestion itself, it does not affect a barracade. A nail alone does not help to barracade. And there are unfortunately no boards in the game. Maybe in the future, Kevan will introduce 2x4's which can be used with nailguns to make more secure barracades :) but for now, and all that my particular suggestion relates to, is the use of the nailgun as a weapon. --Tselita 18:52, 7 May 2008 (BST)

Also, messing with 'cade rates is a surefire way to get a suggestion spaminated into oblivion. As it is, who says survivors aren't already using nail guns to at least repair buildings? Just because they're not specifically mentioned doesn't mean they don't exist.--Jiangyingzi 21:33, 8 May 2008 (BST)

I was thinking of maybe the nailgun giving some percentage increase to the likelihood of barracading. And if they are using nailguns already to repair buildings, they should think about taking those nailguns and putting one in a zombie's (or survivor's, if they're a PKer, or death cultist's) brain occasionally :) As the suggestion currently stands, this is solely for the use as a weapon (though again I wish you had made that base 20% + 25% for construction in talk:discussion, and I'd be fine with Kevan using that mechanics instead) :) --Tselita 21:37, 8 May 2008 (BST)

I leave talk: discussion alone as it's a sprawling mess and I don't typically have the time to wade through it. As it is, the 20% / 45% version probably would've attracted strong opposition from people who believe Construction already does enough for survivors without it gaining combat capability as well, even mild combat capability.--Jiangyingzi 06:48, 9 May 2008 (BST)

This is a great idea lets make barricades damage zombies when they try to break down my tree fort cause of all the nails that I've stuck in my barricades. How about like 5 damage per successful hit on my barricades! Oh and cause I built them with nails, barricades should be twice as strong! *sips nail gun -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 20:19, 13 May 2008 (BST)

I'm sure you're just being snide making a ridiculous suggestion like that. So let me ask... are the Dead trolling my suggestions because of DCC, or because I voted for Axe Hack for sysop? We're sort of having a bet to find out which is the actual reason. I'm personally betting on the former, though if it's the latter I get some free cookie templates from Axe. --Tselita 20:51, 13 May 2008 (BST)

Yup, it's some paranoid Axe theory about how everyone hates him and targets anyone who associates with him, nothing to do with you or the quality of your suggestions at all, right little miss perfect?--Karek^maps?! 02:00, 14 May 2008 (BST)

Now now Vecurek, no need to get sarcastic. :). Although on the other hand, a lot of people do hate Axe hack...-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 10:54, 14 May 2008 (BST)

Nah it's the fact that within a couple of days a bunch of votes, from the same group, suddenly are voting kill on a suggestion that has a lot of Keeps already, and most of the kill votes from this group either have reasons that are sexist, nothing more than insults directed at me specifically (trolling), flamebaiting or reasons which show they didn't even bother to read what the suggestion was. Some of which are ragging on me who I've never even heard of before and who have never voted on anything else since I've been here. And almost all of which are ONLY targetting the votes I make, and not voting on any other suggestions. Yeah. Big leap of logic to make that the votes are because of something other than the quality of my suggestions, Karek. --Tselita 14:33, 14 May 2008 (BST)

Well as long as people are civil, then I will be too. I was cool at first, but then people started putting for votes and saying that because there are too many the dead votes. Then they were attacking my reasoning for voting against it (realism) when that was part of the criteria that the Tselita put in the suggestion. But the main reason I voted against it is it is a survior buff according to [[2]] Grim if you check suicidal angel's spam vote you will see the link if I can't link it. It's a survivor buff in an area that I don't believe is needed. I've never logged into urban dead and thought, "Gee survivors have it hard being able to free run wherever they want or kill three zombies with 40ap." Go ahead and check my votes on suggestions, I will consistently vote against survivor buffs while survivors have an advantage. On the other hand, I will not vote for unreasonable zombie buffs. I don't want zombies to be able to tear down barricades in 5 ap and then kill 10 survivors with the remainder. It would be reasonable if a fak didn't 100% heal an infectious bite (1 ap to use) that takes 1-5 ap to infect a survivor. But this game isn't about being balanced. It's about RPing pubbies who pretend they are commanders of imaginary fortresses while dressed as furries and having sex with animals. This isn't second life, this is a zombie survivor game. So stop crying when the zombies suddenly get vocal on your precious wiki that only the elite can vote on, apparently. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 23:32, 14 May 2008 (BST)

Um if it's any consolation, I do not think your vote was part of the collective groupspeak of the Malton Globetrotters or the Dead, though I do think other people did vote on the nailgun suggestion because I made the suggestion. I'd also like to say that I talked to Suicide Angel (who has admittedly been very polite, even while disagreeing utterly with me) about the Grim link, and I don't feel my suggestion fits into it because it doesn't nerf search rates for guns, since it's not found in any of the places that firearms are traditionally found. And don't come down on me for other people's votes. I actually have a similar viewpoint to what you just mentioned, except I feel that currently it's the survivors that have the disadvantage, not the zombies, and I have 3 different zombie buff and survivor nerf suggestions which I'm not going to suggest until I feel that the pendulum has swung too far to the survivor side again. You've actually alluded to one of my potential suggestions. As for you being cool at first, you have definitely been less adversarial than some of the others in your group, but there have been a lot of sexist (as if being a woman means I'm less capable of making suggestions on this game - they're just flamebaiting) and directedly insulting statements made in the kill votes from them. Also, I am not a pubbie, if pubbie means what I think it means. If pubbies are people who take the game so seriously that they get upset when their characters die or their buildings are ruined, then that's not me. I play Dual Nature characters, one of whom is in Feral Undead. If I die, or get combat revived, I just keep playing. Two of my characters have Lurching Gait so I don't usually even have to deal with much of an AP penalty regardless of whether I die as a human or get CR'ed as a zombie. Not sure if you play any pro-survivor characters - I've very recently made my FU character, who participated in the destruction of Fort Perryn, and have been thinking of bringing a character into Red Rum, so that I'd have 1 survivor, 1 zombie, and one PKer as a more 'even' perspective. Lastly, this game -is- about being balanced. There is one primary difference between playing a zombie and playing a survivor - it's impossible for survivors to ever 'win' the game (except for in Monroeville, where Headshots=permadeath). It 'is' possible for zombies to win. That's sort of the point of The Dead, isnt it? They want to make a zombie win scenario occur. --Tselita 00:00, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Oh... also, survivors can not 'free run anywhere they want' as you are stating. Ruined buildings make sure of that. If anything, zombies are the ones who can go anywhere they want. Survivors have to huddle together in some building until a horde or 20 or 30 or so comes around to tear it down and infect them all... then they have to scatter to avoid being turned into zombies themselves. For those survivors that do not play dual natures, this means usually waiting in a cemetery or revive point for who knows how long, especially if the suburb they are in has been decimated. This leads to boredom and resentment. Note: I do not wait at revive points or cemeteries, since I'm a Dual Nature player. I'd like to have the perspective that the Dead are here to make the game more fun and exciting (one person told me that I'm too smart to stay pro-survivor), but when I get the sexist stuff directed at me for a suggestion, or people ignoring the Q/A that I put in the suggestion, it doesn't make me think that way. I suppose that a few people can make an entire group look like they are voting for the wrong reasons. --Tselita 00:18, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Dr Pain

Hey, if you want to raise Axe damage to something higher, I'm all for that. An Axe to the shoulder will do a lot more damage than a bullet to the shoulder too. Plus it will probably take the arm off. But you're not all for that - you're just making snide comments like a troll. --Tselita 14:39, 14 May 2008 (BST)

The fire axe damage is fine. The point I was making is not that fire axes are underpowered, rather that your nail gun idea is overpowered, ergo, kill vote. Don't even get me started on ballistic stability.--#19 - DrPain ^TMG 02:19, 15 May 2008 (BST)

If you want utter realism, an axe would do a lot more damage than a single bullet. As well when dealing with accuracy, if you can get close enough to stab, you can get close enough to shoot with a nailgun. But for the sake of argument, one of the keep voters said they wanted 2 damage and 30 nails in a clip. Do you consider that overpowered as well? As for ballistic stability, it's the same as a flechette round, which has been proven to be stable since World War 1 when it was first used in battlefield situations. Personally, I feel a nail travelling the same speed as a bullet will do more than the damage a knife would do but I'm curious now to see your opinion. And in the future, if you just post your vote without snide commentary, chances are that would be the end of the drama because there's no way to argue with 'I don't like this idea' and no reason for me to think that it's personal rather than logical when there's no talk of oven mitts or 'bedazzlers' in votes made by you. It's sexist and makes you look small and petty, and doesn't make me or anyone else take you seriously. --Tselita 03:29, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Tselita, if you say your are moving comments then usually you have to actually move the comment. [[3]]. I'm assuming you omitted my comment by mistake. "Still waiting for the youtube vid of you shooting a watermelon wrapped in leather with a nail gun." -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 23:43, 14 May 2008 (BST)

Sorry, actually I did do that by mistake. As for the answer to your challenge, I'd rather give you an example of a nailgun embedding itself in a person's leg to the point that they can't even pull it out, since I don't plan on fighting any leather-clad zombie watermelon hordes any time soon. But since you work in a hardware store, you could always do it for me and show me that the nail does -not- go deep into a watermelon while it does go deep into a person's flesh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsQ_igHB_UY

And here's another of a nail in a person very deep in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4ficRCeCh4

I hope you at least can agree that video of a nail to a person's body is a lot more relevant to the scenario than a nailgun to leather-clad fruit. If you like I have some pictures and video of nails embedded in people's heads as well. Not for the squeamish, though. --Tselita 00:25, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Btw, you also posted "A nailing machine was being used to attach structural members to a timber building frame with steel connector plates, when the carpenter positioned the tool awkwardly. A nail ricocheted from the steel plate and penetrated to its full depth in his assistant's head. The assistant recovered." - I would like to point out that just because someone recovers does not mean that it's not dangerous or potentially fatal. People get shot and stabbed quite frequently, and recover from it, but you don't see people claiming that guns and knives are not dangerous. People also are hit with baseball bats and recover, but baseball bats are still viable weapons --Tselita 00:36, 15 May 2008 (BST)

The difference here is "stopping power", or how much force does the ranged weapon convey to the target that it is hitting. Shoot a stop sign with a pistol and with a cordless nailgun. The larger and deeper the deformity, the more power that the round must transfer to it's target. If you had not cited real life examples to justify suggesting this weapon then I would have just linked grim's reasoning for my kill. SO taking out the whole realism debate - the suggested weapon will allow survivors to search for weapons in currently non-weapon buildings and increase the amount weapons a survivor may carry. I haven't even bothered to talk about how the suggested clips will be compared to pistol clips. My opinion is this is a survivor buff. Explain why you think survivors are currently at a disadvantage? Better yet, post your pro-zombie suggestion that you alluded to somewhere. (I wish I could play with the cordless nailguns at my store. I'll try to work on it but no promises.) -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 00:48, 15 May 2008 (BST)

...Pics plz.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 00:57, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Pics of what? Well here's the Stopping Power Theory. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 01:01, 15 May 2008 (BST)

And here is the opposing (kinda) Theory -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 01:04, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Of the mutant water melon. I had no idea they could grow armoured hides. Are they rare? Worth any serious cash?-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 01:04, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Well I was trying to think of something that could somewhat equate to an animal's body but not actually be an animals body. Watermellon's are kinda fragile so the leather would just toughen it up (or simulate a flak jacket?) Why would you pay money to see me shoot a nailgun at a watermelon wrapped in leather? If so, that can be arranged. Maybe. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 01:09, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Well, if it's just a watermelon wrapped in leather, than no. If it was some sort of crazy mutated watermelon with a leather skin development sort of thing with three eyes, a sickle hand, that shot acid, then yes, I would. :D -- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 01:50, 15 May 2008 (BST)

Ed Begly

1. KEEP -In response to Gardenator, I am a contractor, so i've used several nailguns. I don't think you have though. The author's talking about nailguns that use gunpowder, not air, so you didn't even bother to read the suggestion - you just voted kill without reading. Voting keep because I actually read it and it's well thought out and balanced. - Signed by Ed Begly 16:05, 13 May 2008 (BST)

   Did you actually read past the first sentence in my vote? It reads - "Framing/Roofing nailers require a air compressor to fire. There are "cordless" finishing nailers out there, but they shoot little thin nails." So my argument was that since the OP put in how realistic it was to have a nailgun as a weapon, a finishing nailgun is not much of a weapon. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 00:00, 15 May 2008 (BST)

   I thought I would put this on the talk page so I can laugh at eddie boy again. Lol contractors don't know how to read lol. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 11:20, 16 May 2008 (BST)

Sock puppetry

The number of votes on this, flooding the for column in the last few days made me do an ip check of pretty much everyone i dont recognise. What i found was 11 sock puppets sharing the same IP's. These are the ones i identified, listed by IP (not disclosed):

• User:Pander and User:Rage
• User:The Real Robert Lord, User:Coco Roco and User:Deadmanwalking
• User:Rage and User:Pander
• User:Peter Benton and User:Dr Feelsgood
• User:Guybrush Threepwood and User:Ohforf'sake

A large number of posts from early on had lapsed into Checkuser oblivion, but there was a fair spread through the whole time, so i cannot discount a much, much larger proportion being sock puppets. Also, a number of the ones that did have data didnt exactly match except for identical contribs lists and a fair few of those fell into the same IP range as the above outed socks. Im asking Tselita to withdraw this suggestion and repost it so that we can watch from the start for sock puppets and eliminate them. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 13:36, 18 May 2008 (BST)

zomg the dead are obviously behind this and are trying to sow confusion by voting for the survivor spam buff. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 22:02, 18 May 2008 (BST)

Jesus titty fucking christ batman, thats a fucking brilliant idea! :D -- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 23:32, 18 May 2008 (BST)

Geez. Well that sucks. I need to withdraw it because some idiots did that? :(--Tselita 01:06, 19 May 2008 (BST)

It does suck. But it's better than it closing and going into PR only to be removed again after we nail the other sock puppets. Wouldn't you prefer it to go under it's own steam? -- Cheese 01:09, 19 May 2008 (BST)

Yeah I would.. This is really annoying since it means that 61 people who -did- vote honestly have to re-vote on it --Tselita 01:10, 19 May 2008 (BST)

You dont need to withdraw it, with the socks struck it well on its way to failsville, and there is a high probability of a number of others vanishing down the crapper too as we untangle the puppet strings. I only suggested it because it might have been possible to get the early posters IPs if they voted on it again, and link them to even more accounts, but theres no need if you dont want to. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 01:11, 19 May 2008 (BST)

hrm yeah. Still sucks that I have to do this. I was planning on making a nailgun v2.0 if this one failed in any case -there was no reason for anyone to do this. :/ --Tselita 01:17, 19 May 2008 (BST)

Give me a day to repost this and send out messages to the people who did vote keep to ask them again. Again... this sucks. --Tselita 01:25, 19 May 2008 (BST)

As i said, you dont need to, i was merely asking because of the sock presence and the possibility of catching them. At best they moved it from rejected to undecided. If you want to go with a Version 2, feel free, because version 1 wasnt getting into peer reviewed. Besides, if they would come back for version 1 reposted, they would come back for version 2. Also, wikiflooding is not looked upon kindly. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 01:59, 19 May 2008 (BST)

Wikiflooding? Not sure what that is. I'm going to re-do this and take down version one after writing down a list of the people who voted on it. Hopefully they will on the new version. I'm going to version 2 because Jiang's idea for using construction is better than using accuracy for handguns, and it bypasses the argument about it being a firearm at all that way + makes it better for newbies. Personally I hope you catch them because I'm pissed that this happened - it makes my idea look bad when people cheat. It's like freaking zerging but on the wiki. It's not even a major buff or anything - there was no need for anyone to have done this :( Version 1 has a few problems which version 2 will be fixing (including the problem you had with it being a firearms, by making it not technically a firearms anymore). I'd rather just make version 2, since I was planning on it whether it went to peer reviewed or undecided. How do I withdraw - I've only withdrawn a suggestion one other time and I am not quite sure what I did last time. --Tselita 05:05, 19 May 2008 (BST)

Due to the sudden appearance of 11 sock puppets which make a total sham of my suggestion, I'm closing this and making Nailgun v2.0 - please check in Talk:Suggestions for details - thank you. --Tselita 06:40, 19 May 2008 (BST)