Talk:Suggestions/17th-Apr-2007
CCTV
Ooh - the controversy! I don't see any problem with people using the logical shorthand of "X-Ray vision is bad". It doesn't mean that they're blind, unthinking oafs, necessarily. It could mean that they've understood the reasoning behind the guideline, and, rather than repeating it, they're using it as shorthand for their reasoning. Hardly a reason for Mr Stompy to tell everyone to fuck off, now is it?
If the survivors can see outside, then they don't have to risk themselves by actually going outside. If the zombies can see inside (which would be an obvious trade-off at some point), then there's no point in tactics such as false-generators, or mass-generators.
The few things in the game that allow X-Ray Vision have strong caveats. Generators are a hint, not a definite. The NecroNet is another (stronger) hint - but there are NecroNet blind zones, and not all zombies are tagged. Binoculars are an expensive way to look outside - but only over there, and not down there.
And finally - vote the way you want to vote - not the way Mr Stompy tells you to. It's just his opinion. --Funt Solo 
23:25, 17 April 2007 (BST)
- Yes that was a strongly worded comment, wasn’t it? But harldy unique and self-sensored to boot. Just wanted to draw attention to my point. After a couple of similar votes you need a hook to reach an audience. If you felt personally attacked then that wasn’t my intention. It’s certainly true that people shouldn’t vote the same as me. (they didn’t, I voted Kill.) But, yeah they should vote on merit, because that’s in the rule, not merely my opinion.
- But, Funt, what is the reasoning behind the guideline? That guideline started way back when barricades weren't even introduced yet. Back then it was pretty clear why zombies shouldn’t be able too look inside buildings too find humans. Hiding was the only thing that kept survivors safe. Later survivors kept auto killing that type of suggestion just to keep dummy barricading as a viable tactic. (the wiki was rather survivor orientated back then) Over time X-ray vision became to include all survivor versions as well.
- The fact referencing to guidelines is bad because a clear majority of the guidelines don't have any reasoning on merit behind them. Some of hem had, but those reasons are outdated because of new updated or even simpler some never had any. If a certain subject matter spawned a horde of suggestions like LOLZER! LETS MAKE A RIFLE THINGY THAT CAN SHOOTORS TEN BLOCKS AWAY !LOL!S we stuffed that subject in the guidelines as a deterrent so hopefully people would only submit the good versions. Didn't work of course as that kind of suggestor never reads the guidelines. But that shouldn’t impair judging on regular suggestions. A lot of suggestions in peer reviewed directly contravene the guidelines, and Kevin has implemented quite a few of updates that go directly against them as well.
- Guidelines are guidelines not blanket rules, a Guideline is only valuable if it demonstrated to have a valid reason behind that’s applicable in the specific case under consideration. In this case it isn’t.
- the information recieved isn’t game breaking as Survivors already gather that information easily.
- It does not remove danger for survivors from the game As survivors on an information run are not in any danger right now. The survivor doesn’t need to enter any block filled with a large amount of zombies. Hurting or killing an active and mobile survivor on a information run is near impossible right now even in the most massive of sieges.
- In no way are there obvious trade-offs at some point here. Both sides have their skill and effects tailored to their role in game. Quite a few skills are single sided with no cross over ability or comparable skill on the other side. If a similar effect is game breaking that side doesn’t get it. That’s the same for zombies as for survivors on that.
- In the end the only effect of this suggestion was that it spared survivors AP at the cost of improved visibility against their safehouse. Both effects can easily be tweaked into an acceptable suggestion. So why is the guideline invoked here?
- Or is there a mechanic I missed behind this guideline?
--Mr Stompy16:44, 18 April 2007 (BST)
- I actually agree with you re using the guidelines as guidelines, rather than dogma. See the archives of this page for me waxing lyrical on that very subject. I think it makes good roleplay and gameplay sense for zombies not to be able to see inside buildings from outside. Roleplay: survivors are deliberately hiding, not hanging out of the windows. Gameplay: survivors can carry out tactics such as barricade strafing (which I'm not against - it's a viable defensive tactic) and false-generators. Both of these are good tactics, and removing them would be to the detriment of the game, in my opinion. Because zombies can't see inside, it would be unfair to give survivors pure X-Ray Vision, again, in my opinion. That's why I think that X-Ray suggestions are controversial, and why that guideline often applies. Having said all that, this has all given me my own idea for a Zombie Limited X-Ray suggestion. Coming soon... --Funt Solo
23:03, 18 April 2007 (BST)
- I just can't see why it would be unfair. Zombies can't tag, survivors can't infect. They have got different roles and needs. X-ray for zombies whould be an enourmous buff, X-ray for survivors? mostly meaningless fluff. That said I'm curious about your suggestion.--Vista 09:19, 19 April 2007 (BST)
- Zombies get quite a good advantage from survivors not being able to see outside. I can be sitting inside my safehouse, popping over to the Mall to help cade, dropping into the local hospital to heal people, and all the while, a mob of 10 zeds are sitting outside my safehouse ready to strike - and me none the wiser. That element of surprise would be completely lost to the zeds if I could just look out of the window. Sure, I could pop to an NT and check the 'net, but that's not 100% and costs me AP, or I could pop outside at a nearby entry point and look, but that's more AP. I know it's not accurate to say that zombie X-Ray would automatically follow the implementation of survivor X-Ray, but it could certainly help any case that was put forward. --Funt Solo 16:28, 19 April 2007 (BST)
- Ah - turns out my idea for limited Z-X-Ray is already in Peer Reviewed: Sense Prey. I was going to have something similar for free, that version costs 1AP to listen. It makes sense - if there's 100+ survivors in a building, you're bound to notice something - the noise of them shagging, someone stubbing their toe, the clatter of smashed plates in the kitchen - something. Even if you are a shambling undead stomach on legs. --Funt Solo 16:25, 20 April 2007 (BST)
- Zombies get quite a good advantage from survivors not being able to see outside. I can be sitting inside my safehouse, popping over to the Mall to help cade, dropping into the local hospital to heal people, and all the while, a mob of 10 zeds are sitting outside my safehouse ready to strike - and me none the wiser. That element of surprise would be completely lost to the zeds if I could just look out of the window. Sure, I could pop to an NT and check the 'net, but that's not 100% and costs me AP, or I could pop outside at a nearby entry point and look, but that's more AP. I know it's not accurate to say that zombie X-Ray would automatically follow the implementation of survivor X-Ray, but it could certainly help any case that was put forward. --Funt Solo
- I just can't see why it would be unfair. Zombies can't tag, survivors can't infect. They have got different roles and needs. X-ray for zombies whould be an enourmous buff, X-ray for survivors? mostly meaningless fluff. That said I'm curious about your suggestion.--Vista 09:19, 19 April 2007 (BST)
- I actually agree with you re using the guidelines as guidelines, rather than dogma. See the archives of this page for me waxing lyrical on that very subject. I think it makes good roleplay and gameplay sense for zombies not to be able to see inside buildings from outside. Roleplay: survivors are deliberately hiding, not hanging out of the windows. Gameplay: survivors can carry out tactics such as barricade strafing (which I'm not against - it's a viable defensive tactic) and false-generators. Both of these are good tactics, and removing them would be to the detriment of the game, in my opinion. Because zombies can't see inside, it would be unfair to give survivors pure X-Ray Vision, again, in my opinion. That's why I think that X-Ray suggestions are controversial, and why that guideline often applies. Having said all that, this has all given me my own idea for a Zombie Limited X-Ray suggestion. Coming soon... --Funt Solo
I did vote the way I wanted. I personally think the guidelines (which are also just opinions, with no official weight) are generally out of date; most of the improvements worth making to the game at this point would require going past them. --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 03:33, 18 April 2007 (BST)
I really think we need a re-think on the guidelines... Too many people are using them to auto-spam good ideas or as an unreasoned excuse to kill! The guidelines are there to give suggestors an idea of which areas might face problems. They are NOT there to give voters ammunition to Knee-Jerk Kill! --Honestmistake 00:32, 19 April 2007 (BST)
Well, I've actualy had a think about the various problems that people had with my suggestion. Revised it, added some different factors (such as cameras being destroyable, inability to tell exactly how many zombies are there, and a high AP cost for setting up. It's been well received with (last time i checked) 100% keep at 14 votes. thanks everyone who provided constructive criticism.--Seventythree 09:39, 20 April 2007 (BST)
