User talk:Aichon

Aichon:Talk

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Aichon

ˈīˌkän :Talk

Announcement: I'm no longer active. My talk page is still your best bet to get in touch. —Aichon— 04:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Please be aware of the following guidelines before posting here.

• New conversations should be started at the bottom using a level two header (e.g. ==Header==).
• I like to keep conversations wherever they start, but if a conversation ends up here, I will keep it here.
• I will format comments for stylistic reasons, delete comments for whatever reason, and generally do anything else within reason.

Thanks. —Aichon—

Archives: 2018 | 2017 | 2016 | 2015 | 2014 | 2013 | 2012 | 2011 | 2010 | 2009 | To do

Typical

You turn up and are immediately helpful. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 22:49, 13 October 2012 (BST)

I'll be more helpful after I've gotten done going through a few dozen e-mails I need to check and have finished some work that needs to be done for tomorrow. ;) Also, I detest the fact that my Watchlist only went back to the 8th. I feel like I missed a few days of things entirely. —Aichon— 22:51, 13 October 2012 (BST)

Not a lot. Just look at protections. That's the only new stuff. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 22:55, 13 October 2012 (BST)

Yeah, I hadn't started looking at Karek's stuff at all just yet, though I plan to sometime this evening. I skimmed some of the discussion, however, and aside from a lack of focus, it sounds like folks were thinking along the right veins. —Aichon— 22:58, 13 October 2012 (BST)

There are also the resolved A/REs (General down, Rev kept), and the running A/BP. That along with the main page discussion is all the administrative stuff happening currently. -- Spiderzed█ 23:03, 13 October 2012 (BST)

Glad to hear there wasn't anything else lurking somewhere. I saw some discussion regarding the sidebar as well, but I figure that's all included with the main page stuff. —Aichon— 23:06, 13 October 2012 (BST)

It is, the new main page design I threw up and the Sidebar and, eventually, the Community Portal(which has a note on it's talk page too) are all somewhat related. The sidebar stuff looks like it's just about good to go and the main page stuff possibly needs another revision and some fresh input. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 00:20, 14 October 2012 (BST)

I'll see if I have anything helpful to add tomorrow, but I'm hoping I'll just have a "looks awesome! let's run with it!" to add. I'd look at it right now, but I'm always scared that I'll end up with a strong opinion that runs contrary to what everyone else is thinking, and I'm in no condition to argue something like that right now if that were the case. —Aichon— 02:21, 14 October 2012 (BST)

Hello there

-"(diff | hist) . . Template:Yagoton Groups‎; 17:00 . . (-47) . . Aichon (Talk | contribs) (Removing The Smiths. As per the guidelines for this page, they must be linked. If they're a regular group, encourage them to make a page, even if it's just a line or two. :)"

Roger that. Even though my intention was to try to get them to make a group page by giving them recognition. Heh. -- •Eagle of Fire• 

 •[Talk]•  00:28, 15 October 2012 (BST)

Yeah, it can be a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg type of problem sometimes, what with them not wanting to bother with a page since it's not linked, but being unable to link it because it doesn't exist. The rule is mostly there to ensure that there's always a designated way to contact groups who are on the wiki, otherwise we have run into all sorts of problems in the past, particularly when cleaning up those lists. If you can get them to put up a few lines about themselves though, that'd be awesome, and it definitely can't hurt them at all, I'd imagine. —Aichon— 00:32, 15 October 2012 (BST)

You can totally still do that by mentioning them in DangerReports and Yagoton Suburb news if that helps. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 01:54, 15 October 2012 (BST)

Yeah, I hear ya both. I actually did it at the same time in the group section in Yagoton page as well as on The Abandoned group page. Even then it is a long shot... The group is actually pretty active (I can see it every day) but they don't bother registering to our forums nor to they bother with the Wiki. I don't think they are caring much unfortunately. And since many of their members have similar names it is easy to think about zerging. I was actually hoping they'd get here so we can clear that out too. -- •Eagle of Fire• 

 •[Talk]•  02:46, 15 October 2012 (BST)

Anyway

Yeah. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 18:36, 16 October 2012 (BST)

I know what you mean. —Aichon— 18:37, 16 October 2012 (BST)

cheers and glad

glad someone noticed i placed some suggestions though im not a newbie at forms like this just very forget >> lolz and used to play urbandead just getting back into swing of it i played about 4 to 5 years ago ( character has ironicly vanished) btw what do you think of the other suggestions i have quite a few buzzing in my head but just cant get them down on paper i do think that the hand weapons like bats should have a higher hit ratio seems a shame that everyone goes more for a knife --Heheevilme 16:14, 17 October 2012 (BST)

Well, the food suggestion has been brought up before, so it's unlikely to get much traction this time around, and the ability to pass items from one character to another is, as the others already pointed out, something that could be pretty badly abused by zergers. As for makeshift weapons, the idea is interesting, but I'd have to do the math on it before I could throw my support behind it. —Aichon— 16:32, 17 October 2012 (BST)

understandable that everyone needs time to think over it makeshift weapons idea came to me in a few games ive played over the years and though why not suggest it the idea is basically rough though any way you could improve it would be great as i am not all to similar with games ratio --Heheevilme 17:29, 17 October 2012 (BST)

Congratulations

There are no guides to being a crat. I'd suggest reading Grims misconduct archive and do the opposite.

My advice? Try not to fuck up. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 23:58, 21 October 2012 (BST)

Grim just needed to be cleverer. For instance, edit the JS for the site so that it removed all log entries regarding the actions he's taking as he's taking them...wait...did I just say that out loud? —Aichon— 00:23, 22 October 2012 (BST)

*waits for the inevitable Aichon destroying UDWiki event* --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 00:53, 22 October 2012 (BST)

See? A better class of coup. (c) --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 01:16, 22 October 2012 (BST)

What I wrote a guide to being a crat... At least, user rights tutorial? I think I did it while I was drunk, on your sysop tutorial page. I think. A ZOMBIE ANT 01:21, 22 October 2012 (BST)

Also Congrats Aichon. While I'm fearful this added responsibility might burn you our earlier than being a simple sysop, hopefully it won't affect you! I am fearful of anything that will risk having you leave here sooner rather than later. A ZOMBIE ANT 01:59, 22 October 2012 (BST)

Burn out is, for me, a combination of becoming more jaded than I would like and lacking as much interest in the game. For now, my interest is pretty steady. As for the other factor, I doubt being a Bureaucrat will have much of an effect on it either way. If it does though, then I'll wait for my term to be up before fading away for awhile, just like I did last time. :P —Aichon— 02:15, 22 October 2012 (BST)

BURN THIS MOTHER DOWN!!--User:Sexualharrison04:31, 22 October 2012

Your comment has encouraged me to request demotion when tomorrow arrives. —Aichon— 04:37, 22 October 2012 (BST)

	A FREE COOKIE
	Bob Moncrief has given Aichon a cookie for beginning his term as bureaucrat. Congrats!

Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 14:03, 22 October 2012 (BST)

	A FREE KNISH
	sexualharrison has given Aichon a Knish for beginning his term as bureaucrat. don't flame out in a week please.

--User:Sexualharrison01:32, 26 October 2012

Success! It's been a week. Burn-out is really starting to set in, I have to say. —Aichon— 21:41, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

SMASH THE SYSTEM!! -MHSstaff 18:12, 26 October 2012 (BST)

urbandead skin

It isn't editable, but look here. Maybe you can tell what the problems are [1]. ~ _{03:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)}

Without being able to see the old version, I couldn't say. A quick guess would be that it could probably use an @import(Common.css) at the end. Doing so would import the styles from Common.css into that sheet so that they would be in there as well. —Aichon— 04:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Hope I'm not overstepping my bounds

I have added a Suburb-sized danger report to the suburb template. I realized afterward I never really cleared it with anyone... so hopefully I'm not being a dick here. -Charles Whipplebotum 03:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem with it (and even said I liked it 12 minutes before you mentioned it here :P), but yeah, typically you would want to run it by folks by mentioning it on the relevant talk page or else on a more populated talk page that was related to the topic. As it is, I'd just leave it and see if anyone comments. There's rarely any harm in trying to do something good on a wiki. —Aichon— 03:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I was prepared to remove it if I found any problems with it on any of the suburb pages. Hopefully its well received. -Charles Whipplebotum 04:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I saw your update on the map. If you want you can use or copy our practice page, User:Peralta/Map_Project. -Charles Whipplebotum 00:12, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

A sports metaphor

I feel Boxy and Spider are both a slam dunk. Thoughts? --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 14:23, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Complete agreement. I think it's a safe bet that we can confirm both of them as successful re-evals. —Aichon— 14:42, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

None of this is my fault

--Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 22:58, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh, LOL...I was actually referring to the messed up indentation when I wrote that, not to his defection. :P —Aichon— 23:08, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Ross just basically gave a master class on conversion and manipulation. And the extra-touch of distancing himself from the converted target, making it look like a coincidence and natural occurrence...pure genius. Well played sir. Well played indeed. -MHSstaff 23:12, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

What I wanted to do was convince major survivor groups to embrace better tactics. What I ended up with was another intelligent player willing to shoot me in my face.--Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 23:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps this is an indication that major survivor groups and intelligence are mutually exclusive? And that intelligent people agree that you should be shot in the face? —Aichon— 23:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Am I suddenly an intelligent player or is there someone else out there who wants to shoot Ross? PB&J 23:42, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Put it like this. I have a faction in another zombie game. The recruitment process is this. 1) You have to ask to join. 2) You can't be an idiot. It works pretty well. As for shooting me in the face is a welcome change from the slashfic. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 23:56, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

After some experience in the online gaming scene, I can imagine about 50% failing to get into your faction... PB&J 00:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

That high? --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 22:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I was feeling generous PB&J 19:40, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't pretend to understand optimal survivor play, or the numerical modeling that Rosslessness bases his theories on; it is beyond my ability to grasp. But I do understand the overwhelming need to shoot Rosslessness in the face. It resonates with me on a very fundamental and personal level. -MHSstaff 00:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

It does with all of us. —Aichon— 00:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Pfft why do you think the manhunts had such success once he joined? A ZOMBIE ANT 00:11, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

My Project

I have immortalized you in my side project as a name of one of the Hydroelectric Dams. Just thought you should know.

Click me!

Also, what happened to the discussion areas? It looks like the wiki sidebar was changed and is a tad harder to navigate, in addition to me not being able to find what I need. -- TheBardofOld 07:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Oooh, that's awesome. Thanks!

As for discussion areas, everything is still where it was before on the wiki, but the sidebar did get cleaned up a bit a few days back. It's possible you're looking for the Community Portal. It's currently in the middle of a redesign, so it was temporarily removed from the sidebar until the redesign is finished. —Aichon— 15:53, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that's it. Neat. Thanks. -- TheBardofOld 16:03, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I think you just made a few people's days by asking for that, since there were questions of just how much it was actually being used by people. ;) —Aichon— 16:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Awesome. Yeah, it's quite useful when trying to ask a question that anybody could answer. -- TheBardofOld 16:35, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't a memorial imply that he's like.... dead? A ZOMBIE ANT 21:59, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

He is. He just hasn't gone to an RotRevive yet. --DT^PK 22:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Haven't you heard? Everyone is already dead. Dead -- TheBardofOld 00:00, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Immortalized, not memorialized. You can immortalize someone without memorializing them if the person is still alive. Memorializing is just what you call it when they're already dead. —Aichon— 03:35, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Trixie for IE

Hey, I just discovered Trixie for IE as a Greasemonkey alternative. Doesn't look like many of UD's userscripts are compatible, but perhaps they could be with a bit of work. Think you could be bothered to help try to make a small library of Trixie compatible userscripts? ~ _{21:31, 15 November 2012 (UTC)}

Sorry, but I made it a personal rule long ago to not spend more than a few minutes "fixing" my stuff to work with IE if my stuff is already working just fine in the other major browsers (unless I absolutely have to, such as for work or something that is outright breaking the wiki for IE users). If someone wants to tell me what scripts are broken in Trixie and can identify fixes that will let it work with Trixie while not breaking or slowing down things for anyone else, I'll add the fixes, but I'm not going to be doing any legwork to support IE. Especially so in this case, since IE intentionally chose to use their own blend of Javascript that was incompatible with the other browsers in order to lock people into using IE, which is why so many userscripts don't work with Trixie. —Aichon— 22:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. I don't know enough about javascript to offer any fixes. I played around a bit with a couple of scripts (Trixie has a built in script editor) but got nowhere. Its come up a few times in coversations with newbies and the answer has always been "Use Firefox". That's been a good enough answer so far so I'll just continue giving it. ~ _{00:45, 16 November 2012 (UTC)}

Honestly, that's just good advice in general. IE continues to be a major vector for attacks against Windows. And while IE has taken some big leaps forward in the last few versions, it still has silly issues like these that it really shouldn't have. If this is what pushes people to Firefox, Chrome, Opera, or Safari (at least on Mac, where it's actually my preferred browser), that's all the better in my book. —Aichon— 00:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

PagesInCategory

I got a little laugh out of seeing you add that. I guess I should have went ahead and added it to the page when I came across it two months ago. =S --Klexur 06:30, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I discovered it a few weeks or months back when a few of us were talking about how to automate the Featured Article thing on the front page. I just hadn't really looked at the Magic Words page since then, but I was on it yesterday since I was making some other changes and needed to reference that page, so I figured I'd go ahead and finally add it. —Aichon— 13:53, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

{{PAGESINCAT}} also works. But the variables |all, |pages, |files, and |subcats do not work for some reason. ~ _{14:56, 19 November 2012 (UTC)}

You should add it to the Magic Words page. ;) —Aichon— 14:57, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Was playing with the variables to see if I could get them working. Probably disabled on our wiki. They are considered "expensive" parser functions. ~ _{15:56, 19 November 2012 (UTC)}

A Request

Howdy! Just re-installed a bunch of your scripts after a long absence from UD, and I'm loving them! I have a request if you're looking for new projects. A script that somehow stores in-game conversations (talking and radio broadcasts specifically)would be immensely useful. Hope you're feeling up to it, but thanks in either case. *Clint Clintstone* ^Talk _{19 November 2012}

There used to be UDelorean, which seems to do what you need (store game output in a browsable way), but which has stopped to function since. -- Spiderzed█ 19:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

It definitely would be, but I'm afraid it's something I won't be able to make due to some technical limitations. More or less, userscripts in some of the browsers can't store data from one page load to the next (at least as far as I know). If they did, there's a whole slew of other userscripts I could make, as well as several userscripts that I'd likely rewrite. Until they add it, or I find out some way to get around the limitations, I don't have a way to write a userscript for the idea you have while getting it to work across browsers, unfortunately. —Aichon— 19:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be possible to focus on the pure text output? No links, etc. for V1. Sort based on time, filter all radio broadcast and you'd have a radio broadcast database. For ingame conversations, I don't really see the use. It could revamp the whole radio concept a bit tho. I know it's harder than I present it here, but I like reducing complex stuff to really easy sentences. Very often, it leads to a result PB&J 19:55, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how what you're talking about addresses the problem I raised. Text is just data. I can store it temporarily, but as soon as the page loads again, that data is gone. That's the problem. Whether we're talking about text, links, or whatever else, it's all just data in the end, and I have no way to hang onto that from one page load to the next. —Aichon— 20:00, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Apologies, it seemed I misunderstood you :) How about a script that is handled manually (like the dumbwits) and copies only the radio data present on that single loaded page to a local storage? PB&J 20:05, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

If I could do that, it'd be storing the data from one page load to the next, which, as I said, is something I don't know how to do due to technical limitations in some of the browsers. ;) —Aichon— 20:09, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

All I can think of is a copy-paste macro, to a local HTML file which strips the new info of everything that's not a radio report or something. Mind you, only basic IT knowledge here ^^ PB&J 20:17, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

If we're talking userscripts, you can't do that, since the local files are off-limits for the most part. I do believe that there are some ways to take advantage of local, in-browser storage in HTML 5 (I don't know much of anything about how they work), but I'm not sure what sorts of access userscripts would have to those, since userscripts tend to have all sorts of browser security surrounding them to keep them from doing anything too crazy. —Aichon— 20:20, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Scratch that: Can you explain me why the dumbwit can access all data on the page and we can't get to the text? PB&J 20:28, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Dumbwit doesn't have any more access than anyone else. It merely transmits the data to a server out on the Internet, rather than storing it locally where we can use it again easily. As for the problem itself, normally I would try to think around it, as you suggested, but I'm a bit distracted at the moment, since I'm re-implementing the A/RE archive system (i.e. creating a new one from scratch, since we really don't have anything to speak of at the moment) as quickly as I can while also trying to get some work done at work. ;) —Aichon— 20:31, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

So, technically, we can export the data to a website? Once it's there, filtering and sorting it shouldn't be too hard, right? (Not sure why I even started with the whole local issue now). And no problem, I'll just keep an eye on this page, I think this could be another helpful resource :) PB&J 20:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Theoretically, yep, it's possible if you just use a bookmarklet instead of a userscript, which is what Dumbwit does. That said, I have no experience with those sorts of things, so I wouldn't be the go-to-guy for this sort of thing, I'm afraid. You might consider talking with Scoth, the guy who runs Dumbwit, instead (he's on IRC from time to time and is a really pleasant person to talk to). —Aichon— 20:50, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not gonna let this go until it has been proven it's impossible on this world I think :) Would you be so kind as to direct me to the correct IRC channel? PB&J 20:51, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, can't (various reasons). You might just try /msg Scoth to open a PM window with him instead. ;) —Aichon— 20:55, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Too bad. If you see him, tell him I'd like to have a chat with him and that he can reach me via the wiki or, if he prefers, via e-mail. PB&J 20:58, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello good sir

Can you code tooltips on linked text on the wiki? A ZOMBIE ANT 12:04, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Dunno. —Aichon— 15:03, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

i luff u A ZOMBIE ANT 15:49, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Seconded. Too bad I forgot where and why I wanted to do this... PB&J 19:30, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Cade Advice template

I've been working on a barricade status template for locations. While I've considered several ideas so far, I started messing around with a sepparate one for EHB, VSB and open air locations, just to see what it looks like. I added it to the locations I actively maintain (right here. In the finished product, you can get either one by filling in a single templates with two variables (suburb and cading status), but for now, I'm looking for some feedback on the design and on how it looks on the pages. The idea is that it should just blend in with the rest of the page, so I'm avoiding background colors and tables etc. Any suggestions or other feedback? PB&J 13:26, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

well for a start you'll need another No cades slot for internal RP's and intentionally ruined buildings designated as entry points. They're typically darks. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 13:33, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The advice here is given based on Barricade Plans, I didn't know there were plans that actually use intentionally ruined buildings (well, apart from zombie plans, that is)? PB&J 13:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Griggs, off the top of my head. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 13:37, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

RRP in south b-ville is a documented case. --Ross Less Ness ^{Enter Stranger...} 13:40, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, wasn't aware :) PB&J 13:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Roftwood is another existing example. Barricade plans that rely on wide open ruins aren't the norm, but they do occur and are often a sensible decision. -- Spiderzed█ 18:29, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Good to know, it seems I once again had an idea with a ton of work hiding behind it ^^ . Since it's a bit more complex than I expected, I'm now torn between going for the statusreport format or the current idea of working it in the text. I'll try some in my userspace and show it to you guys then ;) Thanks for the feedback! PB&J 18:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Poor Stub

Sorry, not really my thing. I've added flavor to a handful of locations of the years, but only as it makes sense to do so, and only on rare occasion. I mostly only ever see those pages for the half-second it takes me to click the link to update the status of the block, and even then, I don't update block statuses very often any more. —Aichon— 04:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, in this case, it wasn't really for the actual meaning of the template that I showed it to you (since I haven't seen you involved in any of that stuff), rather the code behind it. I'm pretty damn happy with how it looks and everything, but you wouldn't happen to know how I could eliminate a location from the cycle after it gets de-stubbed without manually interacting?

Also, 'cultural' activity lures more players than the current trend of 'policy' activity ;) PB&J 04:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I leave the activity of both types to people who are more skilled at producing it. I just respond. ;)

As for the code, without actually looking into it enough to tell if it's a viable idea, the way I'd do this would be to create a switch with 6977 cases, one for each current stub location, then use the PAGESINCATEGORY magic word to select the one that corresponds to how many pages are in the category. As that category is removed from the pages, the PAGESINCATEGORY magic word will decrease, effectively acting as a countdown for the list, rather than randomly cycling through the items. You could then bump any of the more important locations towards the bottom of the list, where they will get serviced more quickly, and leave the less important ones near the top, where they may never be reached. —Aichon— 04:33, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

With the problem being that I'd have to create a list of about 7.000 items and the whole thing would lose the cycling effect. I already considered it, but the reason I want to cycle through them as frequent as possible to avoid seeing the same one over and over again. Then again, I'm pretty sure I could make it cycle I think, using a new switch function inside the first one (but still: 7.000 item list). PB&J 04:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, the list already exists. you'd just have to grab it 200 items at a time from the category page. And if people are actually updating things, then the location should cycle pretty often. Anyway, I think you could just copy/paste the list 200 items at a time into Excel in column A, then do =CONCATENATE("case ",ROW(A1),": ",A1) in column B to produce the text that you'd copy/paste directly into your switch template (just tested copying several items in column B and pasting into the wiki editor: it works as expected). Shouldn't take more than about an hour or so, I'd imagine. —Aichon— 05:33, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Button only project

Your comment to Johnny reminded me that I also had only one project that ever required the buttons and I've just remembered that I never completed it. There are about 250 uncategorized suggestions left. I did probably 400 when I had the buttons. This isn't so much a request for you to pick up the project as it is me putting it out there in case someone reading this feels the overwhelming need to do some mind-numbingly dull janitorial stuff that nobody will really care much about in the end. ~ _{06:30, 25 November 2012 (UTC)}