UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/Generaloberst vs Krazy Monkey

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User:Generaloberst vs User:Krazy_Monkey

After I closed The Blitz, indicating Nazi Zombies would leave, Krazy Money re-opens it and states The Randoms will launch 'Operation: Aryan Autopsy', whatever that is. So I asked him on his talk page what it is. Reponse. Then continues to vandalize the page. When I then attempted a conversation with him, it only turned out on swearing from his side until he simply reverted the edit with no elaboration. Looks like his main argument on this one is that he doesn't believe we had all the buildings ruined on the same moment. Therefore thinks he has the right to remove the claim, re-open the operation, and vandalize the page.

I would like to see the page restored to this version. My arguments are that we wouldn't have let The Blitz last nearly a month if we wanted to pretend like all the buildings were ruined. Furthermore I can't think of a good way to get evidence; screenshots are easily manipulated. Therefore, since all the building were ruined on the same moment, The Blitz has ended with a strategical victory for Nazi Zombies. The Battle has ended because Nazi Zombies have indicated they're leaving. Therefore there is no battle. Re-opening the battle would be like re-opening the Battle of Barhapolis because some survivors decide to take up the fight again.

Hugs and kisses, User:Generaloberst/s 19:01, 9 April 2012 (BST)

Event page in main namespace? Gee this thing isn't open and shut at all. When I fall, I'll weep for happiness 19:03, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Also, suggestion: keep your version of the page as a subpage of your group (Nazi Zombies/The Blitz), and you'll have total control over it. When I fall, I'll weep for happiness 19:09, 9 April 2012 (BST)

To start:

Aryan - A member of a people speaking an Indo-European language who invaded northern India in the 2nd millennium bc. It is more commonly associated with Nazi ideology which used it to refer to the "pure" German peoples. It is also of note that it sounds similar to the word "alien" for reasons that I will make clear in a moment.
Autopsy - A postmortem examination to discover the cause of death or the extent of disease. As the Nazi zombies are a zombie group, i.e composed of reanimated dead bodies, it would be possible to use this term as an analogy to refer to the examination of said zombies with bullets.
Alien Autopsy - A medical examination and dissection of the dead body of an extraterrestrial being. Also, a 2006 film starring British "comedy" duo Ant and Dec.
Aryan Autopsy - A term used by the Randoms to refer to their most recent operation constructed as a result of combining the above terms into one handy, and rather amusing (if I do say so myself), phrase.

I dispute the Nazi Zombie's use of the term "Victory". It suggests that the survivor side was totally overwhelmed and unable to respond to the attack. On the contrary, for the most part the battle was mostly a stalemate with Necrotech buildings swapping between survivor and zombie hands every few hours. Crucially, there was little impact away from these buildings meaning the survivor side was for the most part unaffected by the zombies activities bar a slight slowdown in revive queues. Therefore, I would prefer the result of the campaign to either lean towards the survivors or be declared a stalemate. For the justification of the rest of my edits, see the pending case on VB. -- Cheese 19:25, 9 April 2012 (BST)

You can't know if the survivor side was unaffected, because you are in Buttonville (as you admitted yourself). The operation wasn't set in 6 suburbs for no reason, and Williamsville wasn't in the middle for no reason. Since Williamsville was, in our opinion, the last communist/anarchist stronghold, we wanted to 'starve' them, by ruining all the NTs in Williamsville and the suburbs surrounding Williamsville. A very ambitious project. It defenitely affected the game on the survivor side. At some point we didn't guard the Mayer building in Williamsville at all, and still had it ruined 24 hours later. Though, Rosslessness claimed 40% of the buildings were still inhabited by the survivors. For that reason I say the operation was tactically inconclusive, taken both Survivor as Nazi Zombie views into account. At some point we did control all the NTs at the same. At that point it was defenitely a strategic Nazi Zombie victory. User:Generaloberst/s 20:04, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Do you have screenshots as proof of your claim that you controlled them all at the same time? -- Cheese 20:10, 9 April 2012 (BST)
i love you cheese--User:Sexualharrison20:12, 9 April 2012
"My arguments are that we wouldn't have let The Blitz last nearly a month if we wanted to pretend like all the buildings were ruined. Furthermore I can't think of a good way to get evidence; screenshots are easily manipulated." User:Generaloberst/s 20:16, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Pics or it didn't happen is the cornerstone of the internet and while they can be manipulated, the majority of us have been around long enough to tell when a UD screenshot has been 'shopped. -- Cheese 20:22, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Very easy to make a print screen at a certain time, then make another printscreen of a ruined building, and copy the right bottom of the old printscreen over the new one. Give me a couple of months and I will provide you screenshots with every building in Malton ruined at the same time. User:Generaloberst/s 20:45, 9 April 2012 (BST)
I think he was talking about Witness Systems more than print screens. --Rosslessness 20:49, 9 April 2012 (BST)
In other words as long as you don't use witness systems you can never claim victory? User:Generaloberst/s 21:23, 9 April 2012 (BST)
No, as I said: "pics or it didn't happen", whether they're in the form of screenshots or iwits is up to you. But I wager from your reponses that you have neither so any you provide past this point are therefore likely to be Paint jobs. -- Cheese 21:29, 9 April 2012 (BST)
I have neither. And I don't know why you're aiming your arrows on that point so much. Do you honestly not believe that weve ruined at the same time or do you just use it as a 'last measure' because you feel buttfucked that we won the battle? I'm getting the impression of the latter, seen that you keep going on about this point so much. User:Generaloberst/s 22:39, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Not butthurt at all. I merely want proof to back up the claims you're making. For example if I was to say I discovered that yeast hold the secret of eternal life, the other scientists would be all "Peer reviewed paper or it didn't happen". -- Cheese 22:44, 9 April 2012 (BST)
If you really don't feel butthurt then you might wanna see this; I accidently made the edit yesterday; I wanted to end the battle yesterday. Though it turned out right before we ruined the 'last' building (Brockliss), Ross had restored one (Pursey). So take that as a sign that we were close yesterday. It could be expected that we would ruin the rest today. If we would strike the NTs again tomorrow, we would have them all ruined again as well. Though tomorrow Buckley is going down. Corn's orders. And as an SS member I am sworn to defend the Reich until ze last breath. User:Generaloberst/s 23:10, 10 April 2012 (BST)
  • I offer to arbitrate (also I accidentaly rented Alien Autopsy once and my flatmates never allowed me unsupervised in Blockbuster again) --Karloth Vois ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:17, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Don't see why you would offer to arbitrate if you think "it's not worth the time" as you said over at VB other than be biased. Reject. User:Generaloberst/s 20:56, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Good to see you have a firm grasp of who's commented on that case so far... -- Cheese 21:29, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Don't worry about it. User:Generaloberst/s 22:39, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Just in case you missed it, Karloth hasn't commented on that case. -- Cheese 22:44, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Haven't you found out yet that I don't yell stuff for no reason? User:Generaloberst/s 23:10, 10 April 2012 (BST).
  • I offer to arbitrate as well. I had to go through arbies in an edit conflict first-hand, and I might be the most neutral captain arbie Generaloberst can ever hope for to find on this site. -- Spiderzed█ 22:36, 9 April 2012 (BST)
Accept. User:Generaloberst/s 22:41, 9 April 2012 (BST)
  • I offer to arbitrate, but on the condition that i may use the chewbacca defense --hagnat 22:47, 9 April 2012 (BST)

Just to summarise my main opinion of this case: Crybaby wuss.png -- Cheese 16:23, 10 April 2012 (BST)

Cheese, do you accept Spiderzed as arbitrator? User:Generaloberst/s 19:31, 10 April 2012 (BST)

Yes. -- Cheese 10:25, 11 April 2012 (BST)
Ok, let's roll. User:Generaloberst/s 11:01, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Opening: Goal of the arbitration process

As a general rule, I ask everyone to keep his stuff under his header - no replying to what your opponent says unless I ask for it.

While the case was originally just about The Blitz, I also wish to cover Battle of Buckley Mall with this case, as it is clear that the latter is a secondary theatre of edit war on a related topic.

Now onwards to the first item. I ask both of you what your goal(s) is/are in regards to the two, i.e. what precisely you wish to gain out of this arbitration case. Aim for precision and conciseness with that opening statement. -- Spiderzed█ 11:55, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Generaloberst's Goal(s)

I would like to keep both pages serious and NPOV.

As for The Blitz, I think this version reflects what happend best in a serious way. The main problems with the current version of the page are:

1. It doesn't recognize that Nazi Zombies have ruined all NTs. The Result section is therefore false. Around 12:17, April 9, 2012, all NTs were in Nazi hands.
2. It doesn't mention the fact that Dartside and Kinch Heights turned into ghost towns during the operation.
3. It reflects Nazi Zombies weaknesses, but not their advantages.
4. It contains updates (made in the sections Ostfront and Nordfront), reflecting the situation after the battle was already over. Nazi Zombies indicated they had met their strategical goals and would leave, at which point there is no battle anymore. Re-opening it is like re-opening the Battle of Barhapolis because some survivors decide to take up the fight again.
5. It contains rather 'interesting' speculation stating that attacking Police Departments would have been better than attacking NTs.
6. It contains unserious images, and text that were used solely to annoy other groups. Even this arbitration Krazy Monkey seems not to be taking seriously.

Therefore I think the page should be reverted to said version.

Click here for the difference between prefered version and current version.

As for Battle of Buckley Mall, I think this version reflects what happend best in a serious way. The main problem with the current version of the page is that it discusses the status of parts of "the suburb" (I have no idea what that means anyway since Buckley Mall is in 2 suburbs), which were not involved in the Battle of Buckley Mall. Said statement is the same as saying "While Dakerstown was annihilated during the Battle of Dakerstown, it proved to be little more than an inconvenience for the rest of Malton". Makes no sense.

Therefore I think the page should be reverted to said version.

Click here for the difference between prefered version and current version.

Finally, I would like to see that Krazy Monkey will be restricted from posting on my talk page and editing pages that I make. Seen that he only is there to annoy me. I think none of us wants to see more A/A cases than this one.

User:Generaloberst/s 12:57, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Krazy Monkey's Goal(s)

My aim is ensure that the pages in question accurately reflect the point of view of all groups involved, not just acting as a propaganda piece to 'big up' the Nazi Zombies as the original edits appeared to be. -- Cheese 12:01, 11 April 2012 (BST)

To elaborate further, the version of the page prior to my edits was a POV mess, particularly phrases like "...site of the Battle of Krinks, and place where Cornholioo had gained his notorious reputation among the residents of Malton." and "feral communists/anarchists". There had been little, if any, input from other groups participating in the battles and I aimed to correct this.
The Randoms are well known for their unorthodox tactics when it comes to dealing with invaders in the Butt, we prefer an element of fun is present at all times and many pages relating to our operations reflect this. Personally, I'm not a fan of seeing a black and white image of London on fire when I look at a page, adding a bunny makes it much more likely that people will read that page and take something away from it rather than outright dismissing it as a bit of a non-event where a couple handful of zombies claimed to have taken all the NTs.
This brings me to my second point. The Nazi zombies claim victory but are totally unable to provide any evidence of their claims. This is the internet: Pics or it didn't happen. Also, the dynamics of the conflict have been well addressed by others such as Ross and myself wherein rather than the total crushing defeat of the survivors the article claims, the actual story was quite different. The vast majority of buildings changed hands several times a day with neither side holding them for more than a couple of hours at a time. This is the definition of a stalemate, not a victory. Regardless of whether the zombies were in possession of all of them at once, they were not capable of keeping them and "starving" the survivors of needles as they set out to do. Therefore, they did not meet their objectives as survivors were still capable of operating bar the minor inconvenience of making gathering revive supplies take a bit longer. As a long term player, I have seen zombie hordes such as the RRF, the MOB, the Dead, the various Mall Tours, etc steamroll this area and it sometimes took many days to wrestle control of an NT back not the hour or so as in this case.
My third point, relates to this:

  • Finally, I would like to see that Krazy Monkey will be restricted from posting on my talk page and editing pages that I make. Seen that he only is there to annoy me. I think none of us wants to see more A/A cases than this one.

Actually, I have not once posted on Generaloberst's talk page since it's creation. He has edited mine 4 times in the last 2 days, two of them in ridiculous attempts to antagonise me. He has also made this case, continuing to show his lack of understanding as to how edit rights over pages in the main namespace work. I therefore request that Generaloberst refrains from contacting me in this manner and, in addition, he be restricted from creating "events" in the main namesapce and a requirement that they be created in the namespace of his group, Nazi Zombies. -- Cheese 13:24, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Questions about the Goal statement

Thanks for clearly stating your goals. That will make it much easier to determine what needs to be done to the pages and where agreement exists.

I have a few specific questions. Please answer them, and only them. We will eventually get around to iron out the rest.

Questions to Generaloberst:

  1. Do you have any screenshots of the claimed ruined buildings in the time frame from March 12 to April 9? Screenshots of the actual successful ransacking process would be preferred. April 9 (the day Nazi Zombies presumably held all NTs) would be especially interesting.
  2. Do you contest that survivors have been able to reclaim control of NTs and other key buildings?
  3. What input into the conflict had Red Guards of Williamsville, Deck of 52, Team Zombie Hardcore, Umbrella Corporation, Tikhon Medical and/or Wulves? Do you have screenshots of them getting actively involved, or at least indirectly involved (meat-shielding, revive point operation etc.)?

Questions to Krazy_Monkey:

  1. Do you have any screenshots of the claimed intact buildings in the time frame from March 12 to April 9? Screenshots of the actual successful reclamation process would be preferred. April 9 (the day Nazi Zombies presumably held all NTs) would be especially interesting.
  2. Do you contest that zombies have been able to ruin NTs and other key buildings?
  3. Do you contest that Red Guards of Williamsville, Deck of 52, Team Zombie Hardcore, Umbrella Corporation, Tikhon Medical and/or Wulves have actively engaged Nazi Zombies, or at least helped passively by shielding buildings, running revive points etc.?

Questions to Third Parties:

  1. Do you have any screenshots that show the status of the relevant buildings? Screenshots that show the process of status change (ransacking/reclamation) would be preferred. April 9 (the day Nazi Zombies presumably held all NTs) would be especially interesting.
  2. What input into the conflict had Red Guards of Williamsville, Deck of 52, Team Zombie Hardcore, Umbrella Corporation, Tikhon Medical and/or Wulves? Do you have screenshots of them getting actively involved, or at least indirectly involved (meat-shielding, revive point operation etc.)?

-- Spiderzed█ 17:32, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Generaloberst's Answers

  1. No, but I do have indirect evidence. I wanted to end the battle on 8 April, as can be seen here. Right before the moment that we would ruin Brockliss, Rosslessness had repaired Pursey. I was unaware that he did so, thus wanted to close the battle at that point. I think we can all agree that the momentum was in our favor. We were very close on 8 April, so it's assumable that we did have them all ruined the next day. We also have no reason to keep a battle going for nearly a month and then pretend like we had them all ruined. If we wanted that, we would have done it earlier.
  2. Depends on the moment. During the operation several buildings were contested (ingame), I don't contest that statement. Resistance was strongest in Buttonville, I don't contest that statement either. I don't contest that NTs were reclaimed after the operation was over, either. I do contest that we never controlled them all at the same time. On April 9, aprox 12:17 BST all 14 NTs were in our hands, and that is when the operation ended. We can end a battle whenever we feel like it. If one side steps out, there is no battle anymore. We controlled the NTs and then stepped out, therefore we have the strategical victory. We had reached our strategical goals and saw that as enough. Therefore there was no reason for us to continue.
  3. I added them because they were prominent groups listed on the pages of suburbs that were involved in The Blitz. For example, Lockettside shows Umbrella Corporation at groups. No, I don't have screenshots of Umbrella Corporation being involved in the conflict. I didn't even check every survivor for their group either. The groups, as well as their commanders, are reported in The Blitz only because the suburb pages say they were active in those suburbs. I am sure, however, that The Randoms and Wulves were actively involved in the conflict. The number 350 is an estimate. We didn't count them. User:Generaloberst/s 19:35, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Krazy Monkey's Answers

  1. Admittedly no. This was partly due to the late stage (6th-7th of April) in which I personally joined the conflict and, at the time, lack of awareness that this was an actual event as opposed to just a standard zombie attack.
  2. No, as I stated above I acknowledged the frequent swaps in control of the necrotech buildings. As far as I am aware those were their only targets and I have not noticed or heard of any resource buildings being ruined in the timeframe I was involved.
    In a further note, the term strategic victory is defined thusly: A victory that brings long-term advantage to the victor, and disturbs the enemy's ability to wage a war. This is not the case, Oberst admits that the second they claim to have held all at one time they ended the operation and moved on. Since survivors were capable of regaining control within an hour or so, that is not a strategic victory. A strategic victory would be similar to my example noted above where it could potentially take days to recover just one single building.
  3. I've had in-game contact with the Red Guards and Wulves in and around the area of the Necrotech buildings and the ongoing conflict at Buckley Mall. The rest are generally based further into Williamsville but from past experience, it's likely that Deck of 52, Umbrella and TZH were at least passively participating. I'm unsure about Tikhon Medical however as they're based even further west and as far as I'm aware we haven't had any official dealings with them. -- Cheese 18:51, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Third Party Answers

1.)

I don't have screenshots, but I do have recordings of Military Radio Reports from the time period specified. Would these help / be acceptable? I am not in the area nor affiliated with any of the groups involved.  CrunchyCake  T  Breakfast Club 20:19, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Sure, that would be acceptable evidence, especially where the status of NTs and malls is mentioned. -- Spiderzed█ 20:23, 11 April 2012 (BST)
For the record, I never claimed we attacked malls during The Blitz. User:Generaloberst/s 20:35, 11 April 2012 (BST)
13th March 25.96 MHz: "... streets are looking clear in Buttonville ... lights are on across the suburb ... can't see a single ruined building either ... the Tebbett Building is operational ..." (7 hours and 53 minutes ago)
25th March 25.96 MHz: "... streets are looking clear in Wyke Hills ... a lot of lights on, looks the area's been reclaimed ... can't see a single ruined building either ... Buckley Mall is operational ..." (6 hours and 58 minutes ago)
21st March 25.96 MHz: "... Williamsville looks clear ... several buildings with power ... only a few buildings damaged ... the Missen Building has fallen - repeat, the Missen Building has fallen ..." (1 hour and 49 minutes ago)
08th April 25.96 MHz: "... streets are looking clear in Wyke Hills ... lights are on across the suburb ... infrastructure looks intact too ... some survivor activity in the Craigie Building ..." (47 minutes ago)

I think that's all I have. No idea what it means though. Not even sure I've been that helpful.  CrunchyCake  T  Breakfast Club 21:50, 11 April 2012 (BST)

2nd and 4th don't count at least, because The Blitz didn't involve Wyke Hills. 1st report is one day after the operation started (March 13th). We entered Buttonville on March 14th. Therefore it's a logic the report says that Tebbett is operational. User:Generaloberst/s 22:20, 11 April 2012 (BST)

Meanwhile, as arbitrator I have sorted through the biggest public archive of time-stamped in-game screenshots that there is, the Rogues Gallery. The data within it is collected by the whole metagaming public with no other goal than to report PKings, making it neutral even if a bit erratic data about the state of areas. These are all the results from the relevant suburbs in the relevant time-frame. Screenshots depicting any ruins are put into italics and have received an additional indent.

If we limit it just to screenshots depicting NTs and discard everything else, that pits one ruined NT versus ten intact ones, leading to a ruining ratio of ~9.1% ruined buildings versus ~90.9% intact buildings at the time any PKings were reported within the vicinity. -- Spiderzed█ 19:14, 12 April 2012 (BST)

2.)

  • I cannot speak for the whole of TZH, but I can confirm that many members of their group were actively engaged with Flowers of Decay at the beginning of this battle. However, once FOD learned of the Nazi Zombie intentions in the area, we moved elsewhere as to not unintentionally aide the Nazis. Our last interaction with TZH was on March 26th, but I do not believe them to be participants in The Blitz. It is more likely that the Nazi added all survivor groups listed in the area, regardless of their actual participation in the battle. ~Vsig.png 18:12, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Rebuttal Stage

Now we are at the stage where we officially rebutt. Show us where you disagree with your opponents statement. If you have any facts or evidence at hand to counter parts of the statement, now is a good time to present them. This will probably be one of the last stages of this case, so if you have anything to say that could be relevant to the case, please do so now. -- Spiderzed█ 19:21, 12 April 2012 (BST)

Generaloberst's Rebuttal

The screens you brought are mostly unusable. The Blitz didn't involve Wyke Hills, we never claimed to have attacked any malls, we never claimed to have attacked any other buildings except Krinks Power Station, and the only date that is really relevant is 9 April, because that's when we made the claim to have controlled all NTs at the same time. This operation was about NTs and Krinks Power Station, and those only, in the relevant suburbs. It had nothing to do with malls, other buildings and other suburbs. If you don't understand that then you're missing the entire point of the operation. You already said yourself that you wouldn't count malls and other buildings but what you forgot to do is remove all NTs that are in Wyke Hills. The Blitz didn't involve Wyke Hills. I could've told you myself that we've never been there during the operation, and as a matter of fact I did, there was no need for giving screenshots to prove that.

This are the semi-relevant screens. I removed malls, other buildings and NTs in other suburbs:

The rate you found here, my friend, is 25-75. And notice how the screenshot closest to 9 April shows a ruined Pryor building... At April 9, aprox 12:17 BST they were all in our hands. I would find it very sour if we don't get credited for that. We have kept this operation going for almost a month, therefore we have no reason to pretend like we ruined the NTs. I also accidently wanted to end the battle before, right before Rosslessness repaired one of the NTs. This is indirect evidence that we were very close on April 8.

Furthermore, we (Cheese and myself) both agreed that a couple of the NTs were contested and very often changed owner during the entire conflict. When both parties agree, I think there's little reason to assume something else, let alone report that something else on the page.

Change the 'tactical victory' part if you like. I agree that we didn't cause many long term damage. But I want credit for the fact that we had them all ruined at the same time at the time the battle ended.

At last, I want to repeat that when one side steps out of battle, there is no battle anymore. We have stepped out at the point we had all NTs under control. Therefore we ended victorious when it comes to that.

Concerning the Battle of Buckley Mall, it should look like this. User:Generaloberst/s 23:25, 13 April 2012 (BST)

Krazy_Monkey's Rebuttal

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