UDWiki:Administration/Misconduct/Archive/Grim s/2007

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3 December 2007

For continuing to edit the wiki despite being banned. Actually, it was not an edit per se, but he banned a vandal while there were other sysops that could handle it as easily (log). My greatest concern is not the damage the block itself could make to the wiki (in fact, it's probably the opposite) but the total lack of care for this wiki processes and rules. He's, yet again, arrogantly mocking the wiki in order to prove a point. His action was an obvious abuse of his Sysop status despite any intentions he may had. --Matthew Fahrenheit YRC☺T☺+1 13:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Misconduct - for using sysops powers while under a legitimate ban. Punishment, he gets to serve the 24hr ban, that he avoided by banning this obvious vandal, again -- boxy • talk • 14:35 3 December 2007 (BST)
I'm not trying to get a greater punishment here, as I'm happy that Grim didn't go unpunished for his abuse as he probably expected, but isn't ban evasion punished with another vandal escalation as well? Grim pushed that point to the limit on the Izumi case, so I think it may be fair that it bites his ass for once. It would be a warning for Grim, not another ban. --Matthew Fahrenheit YRC☺T☺+1 15:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
wait wait wait what ? You kidding right ? Grim banned a vandal while he was still serving ban time and it's misconduct ? You guys are nuts! There is no arrogance here, is he doing his job! There is nowhere in the guidelines that says a sysop can't do his job while serving ban-time, even if they are serving ban for misconduct (which was not grim case, but is now). --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 15:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Um, I'm also not arguing for our Grimch to serve a longer ban, I honestly don't care if he does or not, but what's a "ban" mean if it means you can still do things on the wiki? Not trying to wiki-lawyer, but seriously, I think the concept of ban is being abused here if you can still do wiki things, you're not really banned from the wiki, eh? --Barbecue Barbecue 16:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
It's not like he was editing the wiki or something like that. He was protecting us from a vandal who was vandalizing a page. Who cares if there was other sysops around, in cases such as these those who spot the vandal should ban him on sight. Grim's was doing his job as wiki-janitor and banned a vandal. No misconduct, no nothing. End of story. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 16:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
as long as we redefine "ban" to mean "can still do good things on the wiki," I'm all set. --Barbecue Barbecue 16:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
see talk page for my comments ;) --Honestmistake 16:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Y'know, 48 hours is a long time to ban someone for who hasn't actualy commited a single bad faith edit. He's commented on a policy that directly affected not only him, but the day to day running of the wiki and banned someone who was actively vandalising the wiki. I was under the impression that any kind of ban was to be a last resort, only taken agaignst a definate vandal to stop them vandalising the wiki. THese current rulings go not only agaignst the spirit of the wiki, but agiangst any kind of common sense. For christ's sake, get a grip and stop misusing your powers as users and sysops. It's doing more damage than good. At the end of the day, Grim is not a vandal, we all know that. He works bloody hard to maintain the wiki and keep it free of people who would realy vandalise it and this is the thanks he gets? Y'know I was actualy thinking of working towards becoming a sysop and, y'know helping out more with sysop stuff, but sod that for a laugth. This shit does nothing but cause more and more stupid drama, and creates an atmosphere of petty bickering and poison-laced barbs at other users. Well donr for dragging the spirit of the wiki through the shit though, you've done more to create a hostile, unfriendly atmosphere than a hundered genuine vandals ever could--SeventythreeTalk 16:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
You can't create rules and only apply them selectively, Seventythree - that defeats the whole purpose of the exercise. Whether or not Grim was a "true vandal" is irrelevant - you simply cannot disregard the decision made by the ruling sysops over that case because you don't like it. You want to protest it? Fine, but this is not the place - or the time - to do it. The ruling has been made, and it needs to be abided by. Y'know, objectively? I knew there was a reason I didn't bring this case up --Cyberbob DORIS CGR U! 16:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Spare me the sophistry, please. Grim got screwed over by a dumb rule and a dumber beuocracy. This wiki is way too eager to ban people. Why can't we change the rules, or make an exeption in the case of a particuarly dumb one?--SeventythreeTalk 16:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Seventythree, I credit you for your writing (spelling aside), but look up sophistry--it's not what Cyberbob was engaged in--he had/has a legitimate argument. --Barbecue Barbecue 17:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Okay as no one is using the talk page i will comment here and wait for it to be moved en-masse. Grims first ban was basically his own fault... he was pushing the rules and got pretty much what Nalikill did! Unlike Nali's latest ban (his own fault but not really vandalism) this one is just plain wrong. By doing this it is arguable that he broke the rules but, frankly, if he had ignored it and we all found out he was watching it happen it would have been clear cut misconduct worthy of a permaban! He has been trusted with the power to remove vandals and not using them in this case would have been negligence! I think we all know that I am far from Grims biggest fan but if even I think this is going too far Grud only knows what those less partisan think!!! --Honestmistake 17:06, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I ruled vandalism in that case and i am start to have doubts if it was really the right call. There is no way conn could rule like that, he kind of steped out of his duties as arbitrator. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 17:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The second you start making exceptions is the second everyone else starts wanting one too. If it's a bad rule, change it. You can't bypass all due process to make a completely subjective call like this so unilaterally. --Cyberbob DORIS CGR U! 17:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
@Hagnat: It's too late now. The rulings (including yours) have been made, and have to be abided by. You had the chance to make that call before the case was closed - it would be a gross abuse of the system if you were to try and reverse it. --Cyberbob DORIS CGR U! 17:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
There has to be the possibility of making exeptions to rules, otherwise the rules themselves are shown up as stupid and undermined. Far better to have an exeption every now and then rather than have a fully, 100% enforced rule that winds up scrapped becasue it did some damage in an area where an exeption should have been made (oh, and I was reffering more to the levels of sophistry previously seen in this case and others before it, not Cybers actual response)--SeventythreeTalk 17:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
...You don't need to completely scrap a rule simply because it has a minor flaw or two. What's wrong with a simple revision? Look how often laws in society have to be changed - yet exceptions are still not granted to people, even when they may deserve it. On the other issue - you've gone completely off your rocker if you think throwing charges of sophistry which you admit hasn't taken place in this discussion in my face is going to get you anywhere. --Cyberbob DORIS CGR U! 17:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Fair enougth cyberbob, I apologise. Accusing you of sophistry was out of line. I stand by my point on the other issues though. Personaly I'd like to see this over and done with, it's getting kinda stale.--SeventythreeTalk 17:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Apology accepted... I'd love to see this over too, believe it or not. I could've brought this case up myself ages ago - I noticed Grim's indiscretion pretty much as he performed it - but I figured I'd see whether anyone else thought it important enough to. --Cyberbob DORIS CGR U! 17:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
This is where they can be overturned Cyberbob, especially considering that the whole case could essentially make for one lengthy misconduct trial involving all the sysops who decided to ban. Arbitration has never been allowed to interfere with the running of the wiki and it is the Sysops job to make sure that isn't the case when ruling whether an arb violation is vandalism, it's come up before in cases like Nali V. Grim s and been ruled that Arb can be overturned due to intent of the edits. So basically, would you prefer it's addressed here where all the precedent this might set is easily accesible or in 4-5 cases, one for each sysop involved. --Karekmaps?! 17:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not getting into the intent of Grim's edits here, as they have already been ruled vandalism and thus in bad faith. At this point it doesn't matter what anyone thinks - that is how it has been ruled upon. Feel free to take it up on my talk page, if you really feel that strongly about it. --Cyberbob DORIS CGR U! 17:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Hagnat has kindly unbanned me so i can have due process, something which was denied me by Boxys hasty ruling (An hour the case was open, and during that hour i was asleep, my power went out breifly in an ongoing storm and i decided to call it a night). Even so, i shall restrict my comments to this page until such time as the case against me goes away. I was watching recent changes at the time of the incident. My ban wwas due to expire shortly (Couple of hours), and i was looking forward to posting the suggestion i have in limbo on the suggestions talk page. While looking at the page i saw the following things:

  1. That a vandal was deleting A/VB and replacing it with a collage of shock images.
  2. That the most recent sysop edit was by Karlsbad, and his was an hour and a half previously

Because i couldnt reasonably assume karlsbad was still online, and no other sysops were online, and this person was showing all the classic hallmarks of being a classic persistent vandal, i took steps and did my duty, the duty i asked for a year and a half ago. It was for precisely these cases that i asked for it in the first place, and my position on that issue remains the same now as it was then. Given the vandal was repeating his vandalism, and the fact i couldnt reasonably assume another sysop was online, i made the call, and used the only sysop power apart from checkuser i have that still works when banned (Page deletions and protections are blocked, as is the rollback function).
Did i know up front that this may have been considered by some to be violating my ban? yes i did, and i was fully prepared to accept it if someone was going to be sore enough to try and push a case on it, content to let others do the pushing and pulling, given how sick i am of all this drama. I even remarked as such on IRC. Did i ever think this would be misconduct? No. There is nothing in the guidelines regarding a sysop using his powers while banned to protect the wiki from a vandal when he or she does not have evidence to assume another sysop was online, and i was pretty certain that in particular would have protected me from any vandalism charges. That said, i was more than willing to suffer the consequences.
I made the right call here, and id do it again if i had the chance. To have done any different would have been to show that i am more concerned about my own personal wellbeing than i am about the wiki and would have, in my opinion, been grounds for stripping me of my sysop powers. My job is not to be liked. My job is not to look after only my own interests. My job is to serve and protect this wiki, and thats just what i did. Boxy seems to think im some kind of power mad tyrant, as suggested by his message on my talk page. I am not. I am, as Zaruthustra put it on IRC, a crusty old bastard who cares deeply for the community.

Did i use my sysop abilities? Yes. Did i abuse them? No. I did not even unblock myself, though as history has shown, such an action would have been well within my power. Did i avoid the ban? No. I could easily have removed it at any point prior to this event, and i could easily have removed this one as well to say my piece, but i have not. I merely smacked down a vandal when i could not reasonably or unreasonably assume there was another sysop around to do it and, come what may, id do it again if i had the chance. I made the right call, and the only one a reasonable person could have made with the wikis best interests at heart. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 17:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

if I may paraphrase myself, which is a paraphrase one of the greatest movies ever, _Kicking and Screaming_, "as long as we redefine 'ban' to mean 'can still do good things on the wiki,' I'm all set. --Barbecue Barbecue 16:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)" --Barbecue Barbecue 17:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC) (ok, it's a quote, not a paraphrase--and again, I'm not against the Grimch)
Not misconduct - He just banned an active vandal. There was no ban evasion.--Thari TжFedCom is BFI! 18:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Not Misconduct A banned user is only banned from editing. The wiki software will prevent that user from editing pages for a set amount of time. Ban evasion then occurs when that user tries to get around that ban, through the creation of a new account or some other means. Grim used his own account to ban the vandel. Meaning that the wiki software does not consider Grim's ban to extend to block user function. The wiki drew a line that Grim was not allowed to cross and he got as close to it as he could with out crossing it- Vantar 17:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

If I ever see a hair split finer in all my days, I'll eat my hat. That was truly a bravura performance. --Cyberbob DORIS CGR U! 17:46, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
As Cyberbob--until there's a clear policy statement that says a ban is only a ban from editing, and not from doing work on the wiki--I guess then I'm going to be the fool who doesn't understand what "ban" means. --Barbecue Barbecue 18:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The wiki software allows Grim to unban himself too, Vantar. What the wiki software allows doesn't overrule a ban -- boxy • talk • 00:33 4 December 2007 (BST)

Not Misconduct - i believe everybody know my stand in here, only enforcing it for the sake of accountability --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 18:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Your stand is that banned sysops can still do their job (contribute the the wiki) while serving a ban. That is one rule for regular users, and another for us sysops, Hagnat. If you get yourself banned, then you stop contributing, as simple as that. Grim has often said that we've plenty of sysops, and at the moment, we do seem to be fairly well off. If a sysops gets banned, then the wiki just has to do without them for the duration of the ban. We'll survive, even if there were no sysops around, regular users were still reverting the page in good time. Yes, the vandal banning was obviously the right thing for an active sysops to do. But Grim also had an obligation to respect the legitimate ban handed down to him by the rest of the sysops. And saying "I know I'm banned, but I don't care" in the block log was just the icing on the cake. You're redefining "ban" to mean something different for admin here -- boxy • talk • 00:41 4 December 2007 (BST)
What makes you think i didnt respect it? What i have done is not actually covered in the sysop guidelines. Misconduct is not the place for it, so your ruling of misconduct for it was, to be quite blunt, both vindictive and quite possibly cruel. The guidelines also say nothing about the use of sysop powers while banned, and for cases such as this, the room for good faith in the use of those powers from beyond the grave, as it were, in defense of the wiki should be an exception in any spirit of the rule guidelines. You will notice that after application of a perma, i withdrew and served out the remainder of my ban. That is not, in any way, disrespecting the ban. And i dont see why you must repeat ad nauseam the assertion that it was a legitimate ban, when the bans legitimacy is very much in doubt, though of no relevance whatsoever to this case. If it had been a third warning ban, i would have done the same thing. You have been sucked in by matts incitive rhetoric, all too eager to jump on the whack-a-grim bandwagon that has been rolling through ever since i started moderating my behaviour a few months ago. Anyway, back to topic. I believe there is a word used to describe individuals willing to risk themselves to do the right thing. Cant seem to recall it at the moment. That said, im not about to toss myself to the wolves. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 05:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Unbanning yourself from a legitimate ban doesn't seem to be covered on the guidelines page either... but Misconduct is indeed where it would be dealt with if it happened, given that it's using sysops only powers. Such an arguement is simple wikilawyering. This is obviously the place to decide this. If I was looking to be vindictive or cruel towards you, wouldn't I have brought this case myself, rather than contacting you hours beforehand. No, I didn't want to deal with this here, but I did consider it wrong even though I would have rather discussed it with you. You decry retoric by others, and then go on about how vindictive, cruel and eager to whack-a-grim I am. Do you even listen to yourself? I've been supportive of you since you got back, but this last week or so you've just gone too far. You would have been swearing at and "soft warning" anyone else that carried on the way you have on the admin pages -- boxy talk • I 09:39 5 December 2007 (BST)
I take this to mean i am free to go, and will now resume editing the wiki. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 19:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

So, what does a ban mean? Should a sysops be allowed to ban/unban other users while they are serving a ban? Given that they are prohibited from editing the relevent pages to report their deeds as required under the guidelines, I would argue no, we shouldn't set this precident. Obviously if the wiki was in real danger (attacks aimed to deny service), that could be taken into consideration on a case by case basis as a mitigating circumstance, but that doesn't seem to be what you guys are saying -- boxy talk • I 09:39 5 December 2007 (BST)

Theres nothing we can do about DDOS attacks. The wiki software allows for bans to be manipulated when banned oneself. Admittedly, such an ability can be misused, however in this case it has not. There is nothing in the guidelines thats ays a sysop cannot ban someone while banned. That is an assumption you and Matt made when you originally speedied this case. The guidelines say that its ok, so long as either the sysop or another user reports the vandal. That was done within minutes of the ban. I believe such actions should, however, only be used as a last resort, and in this case i have demonstrated it was used as such. Had it just been a one hit and vanish vandal as we have had so many times before i would have done nothing. However, i was on at the time he started his run, and he gave the impression of being a vandal set on making more trouble than the usual. Possibly an attempt to be PQNesque. Here are the facts of the case.
  1. Such vandals are trolling for a response.
  2. There is nothing in the guidelines regarding such an act being committed, either for or against. Arguing that it broke the guidelines is therefore an exercise in futility.
  3. My actions were demonstrably made in defense of this wiki against a "threat" against which i was unable to reasonably assume another sysop was present to deal with.
As a result, its pretty safe to say that since there is no guideline regarding the matter i didnt break any guidelines, and my actions have demonstrably been made in an overwhelmingly good faith and an attempt to stop an action by an attacking user, no more no less, though more and less were easily within my power, and are therefore not misconduct. This case should be used as a measuring stick regarding future occurances of the kind for the time being, until policy is amended. Also, your arguing that it broke the guidelines, being unfounded by the guidelines i allegedly broke, is tantamount to feeding the troll. Just let it go here, and if you feel that strongly about it, create a policy regarding it. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 11:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Not Misconduct - It's so vindictively petty to punish someone for protecting the wiki that I'm surprised we're even having this discussion.--The General T Sys U! P! F! 12:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, looks like I've been well outvoted... so let's make a list. What are sysops allowed to do while banned from the wiki?

  • Ban/unban users.
  • Promote/demote users.
  • Move pages.
  • Delete/undelete pages.
  • Protect/unprotect pages.

For future reference -- boxy talk • i 13:28 9 December 2007 (BST)

Ban active vandals. Basically, perform time-sensitive actions which would normally be allowed to perform without reporting first.--The General T Sys U! P! F! 14:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Ban active vandals. This is the only time-sensitive matter a sysops should be allowed to do while banned. Banning a vandal prevents the wiki from the need to restore whatever the vandal ruined. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 15:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Ban active vandals (time sensitive) and maybe page protections for some cases.--SeventythreeTalk 15:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
What part of "selective application of rules" you people don't get? Never mind. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 20:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Boxy, the wiki software prevents a banned sysop from using the delete/undelete function, as well as altering protection status and page moves. Ban and checkuser are the only two functions i know of which can be used while banned. Of course, i cannot check the promote/demote one. That said, the banning active vandals is allowed. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 20:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If a sysop is blocked and sees some vandalism, even though they may be capable of banning the vandal, they aren't able to report it to V/B, they aren't able to add the banning to Vandal Data, they aren't able to place a notice on the vandal's talk page and if someone disagrees with the decision they aren't able to justify it anywhere. In short, they can't do the task properly.

However, in a clear-cut case of active vandalism, where it's clear that if a user isn't banned straight away they'll continue to vandalise more and more of the wiki, I think all of those problems are out-weighed by the need to ban that vandal in order to protect the wiki. So if the case is clear-cut and non-controversial, and the vandalism is active and ongoing, then I think it's reasonable to allow the sysop to ban a user. --Toejam 07:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Flat perma is never added to A/VD simply because if it was, we would have a page about a thousand times longer than we do now. Its for keeping track of warnings and escalations, not for keeping track of which idiot of the week has decided that it would be the coolest thing in the world to vandalise the place, notwithstanding just how easily its all reverted. The only requirement of such a ban is that someone eventually logs it on A/VB, and a sysop can get a friend or, at the very least, a chatting partner on IRC to do that for them. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 10:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
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