Suggestion talk:20090807 Road Flares
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Told. You should have listened to me on DevSug.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 14:47, 21 August 2009 (BST)
Discussion from Developing Suggestions
I'm not entirely clear on the search system in UD, and the wiki was little help due to the amounts of conflicting/out-of-date/generally confusing information (and the fact that I'm lazy), but I felt the above ones were fairly reasonable. Any help from someone with a clearer understanding of that system would be appreciated. I just feel that it needs to be said one more time, in bold lettering, to ensure no confusion exist about the fact that this will not improve search rates or hit rates in any way --Uberursa 21:48, 21 July 2009 (BST)
I'm not big on misrepresentation or decoys, especially when they can't be removed for a fixed period of time. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 22:12, 21 July 2009 (BST)
- I could change it so that someone could destroy it with a weapon, or just throw it in the street next to them.--Uberursa 04:20, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- Also, who would want to do this. The only time I can see lights coming in to play are when zombies are looking for targets, and no survivor (the only person who can use this) would want to make their building a target. The other situation is for suburb reports, which this would mess with. Messing with suburb reports for newbies is not good.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:17, 21 July 2009 (BST)
- As far as who would want to, a lone survivor in a ruined suburb could use it to make a decoy, on the flip side, the moment the zombies in the area realized it was a decoy (due to the description) they would search the surrounding ruins for a survivor. The fixed period of time is relatively short (in Malton terms, assuming a player logs in once a day on average) so they couldn't have gotten too far, depending on how long the building was ruined and to what point it is 'caded. It could be changed so that binoculars could see them as flares, thus the status reporter helicopter could see that they were flares.--Uberursa 04:20, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- I'd consider rethinking this item as a weapon. Road flares look nothing like either incandescent or fluorescent light, and nobody ever uses them inside (they put off chemical smoke). Also, they only last for 30 minutes to an hour. No, I'd suggest you consider their possibilities in a more active role - perhaps a dangerous weapon that only works for a brief period of time. -George Zip ◆◆◆ 01:11, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- No one can see in or out of a building (for whatever reason), so saying that it could be mistaken for a light at a distance isn't too much of a stretch. I got nothing for fumes aside from "it is the zombie apocalypse, not real life" (bad excuse), or one could use their imagination (like with free running). As for a weapon, it could be essentially a melee flare gun. Any thoughts on that? --Uberursa 04:20, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- You don't need to use your imagination with free running. It's a real thing.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:01, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- Good luck.--Agunin_Anoven 04:25, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- No one can see in or out of a building (for whatever reason), so saying that it could be mistaken for a light at a distance isn't too much of a stretch. I got nothing for fumes aside from "it is the zombie apocalypse, not real life" (bad excuse), or one could use their imagination (like with free running). As for a weapon, it could be essentially a melee flare gun. Any thoughts on that? --Uberursa 04:20, 22 July 2009 (BST)
Don't make it a weapon... it will get shot down :) As for a light source, it might work if you drop its duration down to 24 hours and call it a chemical light. Those things can glow for hours and produce no smoke. They are pretty light and increasingly common. --Honestmistake 10:08, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- You're probably right as far as a weapon goes, it would just be another flare gun. It could be changed into a LED light signal, those things are pretty bright and could last longer than a standard road flare. Not to mention it wouldn't present the whole "toxic fumes" problem that was brought up by CaptainVideo. If I did change it to 24 hours, there would be a good chance that no one would see it, and by the time this is finalized, they will be able to be removed. In fact I'll just do that right now. --Uberursa 21:31, 22 July 2009 (BST)
- As per your changes, what does this even do? I see nothing, other than the pointless building decoy method you previously mentioned, which no smart survivor woudl do. All I see that this would do, in a very rare situation, is a PKer/ Death cultist putting one in a ruin that survivors are hiding in to alert zombies.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:10, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- Actually I think a lot of survivors would use these in an attempt to decoy zombies so my main concern would be wasting zombie AP... on the whole though I think there use as "bread crumbs" to lead zombies to easy targets would balance it out. --Honestmistake 14:24, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- The "bread crumb" use was part of the whole point of this. Yes, a death cultist could use them to alert zombies to a survivor presence, or they could be used as a signal that a building was taken and needs a genny, or could be used to draw zombies from a more important target. They could be used to make a zombie player think that no one was in the building at all and check the surrounding ruins for a survivor that is not there. This would especially play a role in a siege environment so that survivors could draw in zombies and slow them from reaching the core of a 'burb, but the zombies would be pounding at their doors, and they would have the no access to the advantages of a genny. The uses of the item are endless, however it is not imbalanced in one direction or the other, because it simply alerts those outside that there is a flare in the window, and zombie players could figure out that it is a decoy, turning their attention pointedly away from it and towards other targets. It lights up a building without the need for 30% encumbrance, but that comes at the price of having all the attention of a genny, without the light granted by it.--Uberursa 21:36, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- No, it's uses aren't endless. It can be used as a decoy, that's it. Rather ineffectively too. If you want a cheap decoy, give a building a quick 2ap repair, and zombies will flock to it. As I'm presently repairing a ruined suburb with my main account, I can tell you that i would never use this.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 21:59, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- Plenty of players never use the radio and consider it nothing but useless span. A lot of folk ignore flares and groans as pointless. Many, many players never bother with clothing (or indeed descriptions... the lazy fucks!) However just because a lot of players wouldn't find use in this (or any of those others) does not make them useless. I would use these, I would use em even more if they were colored but thats a different matter, and I suspect may others would use em too. Question really is; would you vote kill or even spam just because you wouldn't use em? --Honestmistake 23:05, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- in all of the cases you gave, the Majority DO use them. This suggestion would be used by a minority, and only by one side. It would annoy both sides, and survivors currently have a perfectly acceptable technique for setting decoys in a ruined area. If the area was ruined, you wouldn't be able to find these to use them. --Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:06, 24 July 2009 (BST)
- First of all, in a ruined suburb you can't find toolboxes, but you still use them, you can't find FAK's in a ruined suburb, but you still use them (I think you get the point). ANY item will only be used by survivors, that's is one of the advantages to being alive in UD, you can use items. It is simply attracting more attention to a building, because there is a shade of difference between ruined and repaired buildings. A lit building will stand out better, and will attract attention even in a suburb that is not necessarily ruined. Yes, there is a current way to set a decoy. This is a different way to set a decoy, and this decoy can stand out in more than just ruined suburbs. Also, try to not make claims based only on your personal opinion. I will not say that it will be used by a majority of people in UD, I have no basis for that, but I would ask that you do not start making sweeping generalizations over its use when the item is not even in the game and six people, including the author, have even posted a comment on it.--Uberursa 05:53, 26 July 2009 (BST)
- A minority is less than half. So, unless survivors and zombies use it, it's used by a minority. And this would do NOTHING in a ruined suburb. At present, lit ruined buildings don't show up. So, in a ruined suburb, this would be useless. And honestly, what survivor would set a decoy in a non-ruined suburb?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 14:31, 26 July 2009 (BST)
- Groups that do not use meta game maps. Survivor X says to survivors Y & Z that he is going south to start ruin repairs and will m,ark his targets with these. They can then follow when next they log on and will have a much greater chance of spotting where he is and thus keeping an eye (and FAK's) on him while he wakes up.
- Likewise a scout marks his path with these so that his group can follow or a group use these to mark their territory or to show zeds that they have invaded theirs. There are lots of uses for this, all of them are pretty marginal but they are still uses. --Honestmistake 17:55, 26 July 2009 (BST)
- Thanks for not listening to me about ruined buildings being unaffected by these. I really wanted to repeat myself. Also, thank so much for forgetting that some buildings around an unruined area will actually have generators already, completely destroying the other uses you just mentioned. Absolutely lovely work there, because I really enjoy pointing out the insane obviousness of this situation.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:32, 26 July 2009 (BST)
- You are not pointing out the obvious, you are making stuff up. Why would ruined buildings not be effected by these? The suggestion makes no mention of them being invisible in ruins which leads me to believe they can be seen and hence have a use... You are grasping at straws to justify your opinion that they are useless when I have clearly stated several (admittedly marginal) uses for them. I can think of several others but you still just say they will not work without any clear reason why? --Honestmistake 00:11, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- Because you can't see if a ruined building is lit from the street, you idiot.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:14, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- "They can also be lit and dropped on streets and outside buildings with the message There are lit road flares here." Doesn't need to be inside the building to mark it, even if it doesn't show on the mini map they would still be useful for indicating target buildings by simply scattering them in the streets. Lit ruins may not show on the mini map (I am not sure on that but will take your word for it) but that does not mean that these could not as it seems to me that marking buildings as either territory or targets is the main idea behind this (they don't affect search or accuracy). As such they would be useful for a minority and mere flavour for everyone else and I really can't see how that would be a problem. --Honestmistake 16:17, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- If this added that ruins showed up lit, then that would make this a double suggestion. And besides, that aspect is almost certainly a dupe. It's been brought up several times.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 19:08, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- How about I just save you the first spot on the kill vote section?--Uberursa 00:44, 31 July 2009 (BST)
- Don't bother. I won't be voting kill.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:46, 31 July 2009 (BST)
- You want to keep it? Really? After all that?--Uberursa 18:42, 1 August 2009 (BST)
- No. If you have the complete and utter folly to suggest this after the lengthly "Discussion", then I'm going to vote Spam. This suggestion is ridiculous.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:48, 1 August 2009 (BST)
- I dou't see how this suggestion is ridiculous, even by what you've said in the above. Most of this thread was you saying that you personally wouldn't use it.--Idly Hummingbird 03:28, 5 August 2009 (BST)
- What part of "This suggestion would do nothing in a ruined suburb" does no-one understand?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 18:46, 5 August 2009 (BST)
- Well, your arguments are legitimate, but they are no basis for discouraging the suggester from posting this on Suggestions. There are plenty of people that would vote keep on this, and it could quite possibly be of use for the survivor population, as Honestmistake has shown. You can vote as you like, but it bothers me that you should be trying to discourage Uberursa from posting this at all despite a fair amount of positive feedback.--Idly Hummingbird 22:33, 5 August 2009 (BST)
- Honestmistake is the only person who has given positive feedback. He has provided no argument to support the fact that this will do anything.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:28, 6 August 2009 (BST)
- Sorry but just is not true. I have suggested several uses for these and frankly it is only you saying that these are not visible in ruins... nothing in the description says that (indeed it suggests the opposite to me!) Given your assertion that generators do not show up in ruins then you have a valid argument for these not either... however given the description specifically says they are hung in windows and visable from the street unless superseded by a generator and the logic that says a ruin should have more holes for the light to escape from then its more reasonable to say that powered ruins should be seen than the crap you are spouting just because you do not like this.--Honestmistake 12:16, 6 August 2009 (BST)
- You want to suggest that powered ruins show up as powered? By all means do, but this isn't suggesting that. The point of these is that they imatate generators. If they do something completely different, then they do nothing really. This suggestion is nonsense.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 13:33, 6 August 2009 (BST)
- Sorry but just is not true. I have suggested several uses for these and frankly it is only you saying that these are not visible in ruins... nothing in the description says that (indeed it suggests the opposite to me!) Given your assertion that generators do not show up in ruins then you have a valid argument for these not either... however given the description specifically says they are hung in windows and visable from the street unless superseded by a generator and the logic that says a ruin should have more holes for the light to escape from then its more reasonable to say that powered ruins should be seen than the crap you are spouting just because you do not like this.--Honestmistake 12:16, 6 August 2009 (BST)
- Honestmistake is the only person who has given positive feedback. He has provided no argument to support the fact that this will do anything.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:28, 6 August 2009 (BST)
- Well, your arguments are legitimate, but they are no basis for discouraging the suggester from posting this on Suggestions. There are plenty of people that would vote keep on this, and it could quite possibly be of use for the survivor population, as Honestmistake has shown. You can vote as you like, but it bothers me that you should be trying to discourage Uberursa from posting this at all despite a fair amount of positive feedback.--Idly Hummingbird 22:33, 5 August 2009 (BST)
- What part of "This suggestion would do nothing in a ruined suburb" does no-one understand?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 18:46, 5 August 2009 (BST)
- I dou't see how this suggestion is ridiculous, even by what you've said in the above. Most of this thread was you saying that you personally wouldn't use it.--Idly Hummingbird 03:28, 5 August 2009 (BST)
- No. If you have the complete and utter folly to suggest this after the lengthly "Discussion", then I'm going to vote Spam. This suggestion is ridiculous.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:48, 1 August 2009 (BST)
- You want to keep it? Really? After all that?--Uberursa 18:42, 1 August 2009 (BST)
- Don't bother. I won't be voting kill.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:46, 31 July 2009 (BST)
- How about I just save you the first spot on the kill vote section?--Uberursa 00:44, 31 July 2009 (BST)
- If this added that ruins showed up lit, then that would make this a double suggestion. And besides, that aspect is almost certainly a dupe. It's been brought up several times.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 19:08, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- "They can also be lit and dropped on streets and outside buildings with the message There are lit road flares here." Doesn't need to be inside the building to mark it, even if it doesn't show on the mini map they would still be useful for indicating target buildings by simply scattering them in the streets. Lit ruins may not show on the mini map (I am not sure on that but will take your word for it) but that does not mean that these could not as it seems to me that marking buildings as either territory or targets is the main idea behind this (they don't affect search or accuracy). As such they would be useful for a minority and mere flavour for everyone else and I really can't see how that would be a problem. --Honestmistake 16:17, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- Because you can't see if a ruined building is lit from the street, you idiot.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:14, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- You are not pointing out the obvious, you are making stuff up. Why would ruined buildings not be effected by these? The suggestion makes no mention of them being invisible in ruins which leads me to believe they can be seen and hence have a use... You are grasping at straws to justify your opinion that they are useless when I have clearly stated several (admittedly marginal) uses for them. I can think of several others but you still just say they will not work without any clear reason why? --Honestmistake 00:11, 29 July 2009 (BST)
- Thanks for not listening to me about ruined buildings being unaffected by these. I really wanted to repeat myself. Also, thank so much for forgetting that some buildings around an unruined area will actually have generators already, completely destroying the other uses you just mentioned. Absolutely lovely work there, because I really enjoy pointing out the insane obviousness of this situation.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:32, 26 July 2009 (BST)
- A minority is less than half. So, unless survivors and zombies use it, it's used by a minority. And this would do NOTHING in a ruined suburb. At present, lit ruined buildings don't show up. So, in a ruined suburb, this would be useless. And honestly, what survivor would set a decoy in a non-ruined suburb?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 14:31, 26 July 2009 (BST)
- First of all, in a ruined suburb you can't find toolboxes, but you still use them, you can't find FAK's in a ruined suburb, but you still use them (I think you get the point). ANY item will only be used by survivors, that's is one of the advantages to being alive in UD, you can use items. It is simply attracting more attention to a building, because there is a shade of difference between ruined and repaired buildings. A lit building will stand out better, and will attract attention even in a suburb that is not necessarily ruined. Yes, there is a current way to set a decoy. This is a different way to set a decoy, and this decoy can stand out in more than just ruined suburbs. Also, try to not make claims based only on your personal opinion. I will not say that it will be used by a majority of people in UD, I have no basis for that, but I would ask that you do not start making sweeping generalizations over its use when the item is not even in the game and six people, including the author, have even posted a comment on it.--Uberursa 05:53, 26 July 2009 (BST)
- in all of the cases you gave, the Majority DO use them. This suggestion would be used by a minority, and only by one side. It would annoy both sides, and survivors currently have a perfectly acceptable technique for setting decoys in a ruined area. If the area was ruined, you wouldn't be able to find these to use them. --Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:06, 24 July 2009 (BST)
- Plenty of players never use the radio and consider it nothing but useless span. A lot of folk ignore flares and groans as pointless. Many, many players never bother with clothing (or indeed descriptions... the lazy fucks!) However just because a lot of players wouldn't find use in this (or any of those others) does not make them useless. I would use these, I would use em even more if they were colored but thats a different matter, and I suspect may others would use em too. Question really is; would you vote kill or even spam just because you wouldn't use em? --Honestmistake 23:05, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- No, it's uses aren't endless. It can be used as a decoy, that's it. Rather ineffectively too. If you want a cheap decoy, give a building a quick 2ap repair, and zombies will flock to it. As I'm presently repairing a ruined suburb with my main account, I can tell you that i would never use this.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 21:59, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- The "bread crumb" use was part of the whole point of this. Yes, a death cultist could use them to alert zombies to a survivor presence, or they could be used as a signal that a building was taken and needs a genny, or could be used to draw zombies from a more important target. They could be used to make a zombie player think that no one was in the building at all and check the surrounding ruins for a survivor that is not there. This would especially play a role in a siege environment so that survivors could draw in zombies and slow them from reaching the core of a 'burb, but the zombies would be pounding at their doors, and they would have the no access to the advantages of a genny. The uses of the item are endless, however it is not imbalanced in one direction or the other, because it simply alerts those outside that there is a flare in the window, and zombie players could figure out that it is a decoy, turning their attention pointedly away from it and towards other targets. It lights up a building without the need for 30% encumbrance, but that comes at the price of having all the attention of a genny, without the light granted by it.--Uberursa 21:36, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- Actually I think a lot of survivors would use these in an attempt to decoy zombies so my main concern would be wasting zombie AP... on the whole though I think there use as "bread crumbs" to lead zombies to easy targets would balance it out. --Honestmistake 14:24, 23 July 2009 (BST)
- As per your changes, what does this even do? I see nothing, other than the pointless building decoy method you previously mentioned, which no smart survivor woudl do. All I see that this would do, in a very rare situation, is a PKer/ Death cultist putting one in a ruin that survivors are hiding in to alert zombies.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:10, 23 July 2009 (BST)
Okay people, let's see if we can take the arguments somewhere else; unless you guys have anything new to add, it's time to put up or cycle this suggestion. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:17, 6 August 2009 (BST)
- Right-o, I'll put it up for voting tomorrow. I was just trying to allow plenty of time for someone to suggest an an additional idea, the only one that came after the update was that it should show up in a ruin, which I will try to put in somewhere as a side note somewhere. The only complication with it being that it will be impossible to tell the difference between a flared ruin and a repaired building. Unfortunately, the discussion turned into a pitched battle between Yonnua Koponen and anyone who responded to him. --Uberursa 03:20, 7 August 2009 (BST)
- If you make it so that they show up in ruins, they won't look like generators. That defeats the purpose of the suggestion.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 10:49, 7 August 2009 (BST)
- Defeats the purpose of a suggestion you keep calling SPAM because it has no purpose???--Honestmistake 12:43, 7 August 2009 (BST)
- Well, that comment certainly made no sense. The point is that either you want this to imatate generators (which means they won't show up on the mini-map, making them useless) or you want them to show up (which means people will know what they are, and ignore them, rendering them useless.) Either way, these do nothing.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 14:15, 7 August 2009 (BST)
- Defeats the purpose of a suggestion you keep calling SPAM because it has no purpose???--Honestmistake 12:43, 7 August 2009 (BST)
- If you make it so that they show up in ruins, they won't look like generators. That defeats the purpose of the suggestion.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 10:49, 7 August 2009 (BST)
