Talk:Suggestions/16th-Apr-2007

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Crime & Punishment

  1. spam - I don't like to encourage PKing. --Funt Solo Scotland flag.JPG 08:38, 16 April 2007 (BST)
    • Re - As noted in the suggestion, this will not encourage PKing except in cases where a player has been seen stealing an artwork (in which case, it reveals them as antisocial but without damaging anything that has a direct game function such as a destroyed generator or a killed survivor). - Fuster 08:48, 16 April 2007 (BST)
    Re - Your suggestion states "players to take items from someone they’ve just killed". That encourages PKing, however you dance around it. --Funt Solo Scotland flag.JPG 10:01, 16 April 2007 (BST)
    • Re - The only items I'm suggesting to allow to be taken by looting are the artworks - which currently only serve a flavour function. Your shotgun is still safe. Arguably, the suggestion is actually likely to decrease random PKs because it gives a different focus for the players that currently do this. -Fuster 10:20, 16 April 2007 (BST)
    Re - you're not supposed to double Re people. Your suggestion encourages a form of PKing. I never mentioned shotguns so don't put words in my mouth. Encouraging PKing equals my Spam vote. It's that simple.--Funt Solo Scotland flag.JPG 10:32, 16 April 2007 (BST) Extended discussions go on the talk page -- boxy T L ZS Nuts2U DA 15:53, 16 April 2007 (BST)
    The reason extended discussions are not allowed on the suggestions page is because of space considerations and neatness. It's more in line with the rules to move the discussion so it can be continued instead of simply striking it.--Vista 19:56, 16 April 2007 (BST)

As the first set of Re comments were perfectly legal, I'd have left them in myself. Still, sorry you mods had to bother yourselves at all with this trivia. It was a circular argument anyway. --Funt Solo Scotland flag.JPG 21:24, 16 April 2007 (BST)

There's nothing wrong with discussion, and it's our job to bother ourselves with trivia just like any other user. As far as I know the established rule was always that the entire discussion was moved after the first two Re's. not because of any legality issues but to preserve the discussion and to keep the place clean. The two re's rules was like the non-author re's rule only there to keep the voting sections clean as the system used when the rules were created was pretty messy. This was before all the new system that made it far more structured. That those rules are now repressing discussion is an unintended side effect. I'm thinking about starting up a discussion to better define both the rules and its effects.--Vista 09:11, 17 April 2007 (BST)
I like the system we have in place at the moment. The discussion page is for discussing the suggestion - the voting page is for voting on it. Non-author res are just a pain in the backside - because it would become a free for all. It's bad enough keeping the lists correctly formatted at the best of times, without everyone jumping in there. I also like the single Re rule. The author has made their case in their suggestion text - hopefully after some discussion on this page. The voter makes their point. The author gets a chance of rebuttal, as does the voter (final word). It all seems very fair and civilised. If you look at all the cases of people making multiple Re comments, it's usually a stupidly circular argument, like the one above. I said it was encouraging PKing - he said "no, it wasn't", I said "yes, it was" - that could have carried on forever in a ridiculous game of "last word", if it wasn't for the single Re rule. I don't think discussion is being repressed at all - it's here on this page. I think bullshit during voting is being repressed - which is a good thing. Some people will carry on a discussion ad infinitum, if you let them - and I don't believe voting is the place for that. Surely a line must be drawn somewhere? Anyway, this may all be immaterial, as boxy's proposed new system (see bottom of this page) would place all discussion of a particular suggestion in the correct talk page. --Funt Solo Scotland flag.JPG 09:43, 17 April 2007 (BST)
Sorry I just struck it Vista, but I'm sick of moving pointless discussions to this page where they're hardly ever continued, and usually lost in the archives, never to be found again. The guys being struck were free to move it if they felt like it was important to continue -- boxy T L ZS Nuts2U DA 10:44, 17 April 2007 (BST)
I didn't even know it had been moved here... just discovered this while looking for something else! - Fuster 23:39, 18 April 2007 (BST)


Revive Revision

Revive Revision v4 and v5

Just for those who want to see how I did the math here it is for Necronet Access. 

Hits required = 1/revive chance = 1/0.5 = 2 Hits
AP required to get 2 hits = 2 * (1/chance to hit) = 2 * (1/0.25) = 8 AP
AP required to find vials (at a 20% chance) =2 vials * 1/search chance 
  = 2 * 1/0.2 = 10AP for both vials
Total AP cost = 18AP

Well it's there for those who want to see it. - JedazΣT MC ΞD GIS S! 09:29, 16 April 2007 (GMT)

Why on earth would you need to find two vials, when each vial contains 4 doses, enough for 4 hits? Your math above assumes that each ATTEMPT consumes a dose, but my suggestion clearly stats that only HITS consume doses. The cost would go as follows (modifying your own text here):
Hits required = 1/revive chance = 1/0.5 = 2 Hits
AP required to get 2 hits = 2 * (1/chance to hit) = 2 * (1/0.25) = 8 AP
AP required to find vials (at a 20% chance) =.5 vials * 1/search chance 
  = .5 * 1/0.2 = 2.5AP for 2 hits from a 4 dose vial
Total AP cost = 10.5 AP
My initial calculation included the AP spent loading the vial, and assumed a less optimistic search rate- I often search unpowered NT's. Given the above figure, though, I hardly can see how you can accurately say my suggestion is a NERF!
Also, there was a slight discrepancy in the numbers I used for my calculations (which came form a previous version), and those posted in the suggestion (which reflected the version I intended to use in voting). The difference was pretty small, though. --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 12:44, 16 April 2007 (BST)
I apologise, I mis-read the suggestion and I'm sorry for being so narky. Anyway thats cool, hey just for clarification I was wondering if the weapon only works if it is loaded or can it work like a standard melee weapon without needing to be reloaded? Also I think you should let people keep their DNA extractors rather then removing them, but I'm not going to kill over that. - JedazΣT MC ΞD GIS S! 12:30, 16 April 2007 (GMT)
Nope, it can't be used as a "weapon" when unloaded- that would make it a very powerful starting weapon against zombies (20% hit for five damage for starting NTs) and let you attack without the intent to revive. It might help to consider the device working like this:
  1. You walk up to a zombie an try and jab it with your injector (which should not be an easy task, really)
  2. If you get the needle deep and in a critical location (near the CNS or heart, hence the rather low hit rate compared to other weapons) then the injector allows you to pump in a mix of serum (using up a hit)
  3. If you are skilled, you can tweak the serum mixture and pull off a revive. If you fail, you still pumped in juice, but it partly "dis-animates" the zombie rather than reviving them.
The v3 version below in discussion did indeed let people keep their DNA scanners, but the complaint was made that the need for finding both a NT Injector and vials would slow people down. The simplest solution seemed to auto-upgrade all scanners to have injector functionality in addition to scanner capacity. Its not like the extra 2% encumbrance is gonna matter, and as soon as you load a vial, it breaks even and then some. --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 00:01, 17 April 2007 (BST)

A quote from the vote comments:

#:*Re - I think your math is wrong. I calculate that, with your system, for 5AP (1 to load the gun) you get a 34.39% chance of reviving. With the current system, I've got a 100% chance of reviving for 1AP. Why would I want your system? (I get 34.39 from that fact that your hit rate is 25%. 25% of the 40% to effect the Zed is a quarter of 40, which is 10. The chances of getting a 10 out of 100 with 4 goes is 34.39%.) Maybe I'm missing something obvious but it looks like your system is a bit crap. --Funt Solo Scotland flag.JPG 09:23, 17 April 2007 (BST)

As I explained in the vote comment RE which you seemed to ignore, you did miss something Funt- the fact that missed attacks do NOT consume any doses. In effect, you "syringe" is only used if you hit, and thus has a 40% chance of working (per use) and not a 10% chance; what's more, each "syringe" can be used 4 times.

Lets look at a typical (if ideally easy) day in a revive tech's life under both systems. I'll assume Necronet Access, only because its the choice you made above.

  • Current System: 10AP spent on movment, barricading, etc. 40AP spent on revives. 4 syringes used, 4 people revived.
  • Revive Revision v5: 10AP spent on movment, barricading, etc. 40AP spent on revive attempts. No need to re-load- just carry 3 loaded NT Injectors (My reviove tech never goes over 50% encumbrance as of now). 10 hits- uses 10 doses from Necrotech Serum Vial, requires 2 AP spent reloading but leaves Injector mostly loaded for the next day). 4 revives completed, 30 damage done to the zombies, 2.5 NT Serum Vials used (equal to 2.5 syringes).

So, the revision results in an equally good revive rate per day of active reviving (it would actually be much BETTER if you had, say, 39 or 46 APs to spend on revives) but it uses MUCH less in the way of consumable resources, requiring less time to be spent searching.

Consider this; best case scenario, it takes about 3AP to find a syringe; this would also hold for NT serum Vials. So, reviving 4 people under the current system really costs 52APs (40 to revive, 12 to find 4 syringes) for a cost of 13AP per revive. Reviving 4 people (per the above description) under my proposal costs 40 AP plus 3x 2.5AP plus (slightly less than) 3 to reload = total of 50.5 APs, for an average of 12.625 APs per revive. The Revive Revision v5 gives a small a net savings in AP that grows bigger as syringes get harder to find- which is EXACTLY what is happening right now in areas where survivors have lost ground. --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 00:00, 18 April 2007 (BST)

Revive Revision v3

Timestamp: S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 13:25, 13 April 2007 (BST)
Type: item and skill revivsion
Scope: NT syringes, people doing revies
Description: This suggestion aims to overhaul the revive syringe and relataed game factors (skills, etc). The end result is that performing revives would be more like attacking a zombie, with a chance the attack revives them. The intended goal is to add more flexability to the system, and also to make performing revives both less boring (by having an element of chance) and more tactically flexable (by not requiring 10 APs to be spent in one chunk), while keeping over all revive rates about the same.

The flavor text if this were implemented as an update would run along the lines of Necrotech introducing new "field ready" equipment and techniques.

Replace NT Scanners with the following "weapon" (existing scanners remain in inventory and continue to function):

  • Item- Necrotech Injector: 6% encumbrance. Functions as a scanner, but also as a weapon with a 10% base chance to hit. 1 AP to use to "attack" with, like any weapon. Found in NT buildings (replaces scanners), must be loaded with the NT Serum Vial below (Injector is always found with 0 doses left, as the vials expire not long after being loaded). Can not be manufactured. New Necrotech Lab Assistant characters start with this item (with 0 doses) instead of a scanner. A hit on a zombie from a loaded NT Injector uses up one dose, and has a variable chance of reviving the zombie (which earns the reviver 10 XP). If this chance fails, the zombie instead takes 5 damage (which earns XP as per any attack doing the same).

Replace NT Syringes with the following (existing syringes remain in invenetory and continue to function):

  • Item- Necotech Serum Vial: used like a pistol clip to reload the Necrotech Injector. Holds 4 doses. 2% encumbrance. Found in NT buildings at instead of syringes, or manufactured as per a syringe, using Necronet Access.

Replace NT skills with following:

  • NT Employment: The user has a +10% (20% total) chance to hit with an NT injector, and a 20% to revive a zombie with a hit, in addition to current abilities.
  • Lab Experience: the survivor has a +10% (20% total) chance to hit with an NT injector, and a 40% chance to revive a zombie they hit, in addition to current abilities.
  • Necrotnet Access: the survivor has a +15% (25% total) chance to hit with an NT injector, and a 40% chance to revive a zombie they hit, in addition to current abilities. Can revive Brain Rotted zombies and manufacture NT Serum Vials (but not syringes) in a powered NT building.

Powered NT building Effects:

  • All current effects remain
  • +10% chance to revive most zombie hit with NT injector (allowing up to 50% revival rates)
  • Zombies with Brain Rot can be revived by survivors with Necronet Access; each hit with an NT injector has flat 40% chance to revive (no bous for powered building) using Necronet Access.

Here is a comparison of the likely costs of performing a revive:

  • Currently: 10 AP to revive (Requires Lab Expereince) plus estimated 10 AP to find syringe = 20APs
  • Per above proposal:
    With NT Lab Expereince: 12.5 attacks with Injector = 2.5 hits = 1 revive. 12.5 AP attacking, plus using 2.5 doses from a vial with 4 doses (62.5% of the 10 AP per syringe estimate = 6.25 AP) plus .625 AP to load the injector = 19.375APs.
    With NT Employment: 38.75APs
    With Necronet Access: 16.875APs

Discussion

Nerfs revive queues, and disguises the nerf of reviving behind a layer of statistics - which, as everyone should know, can be twisted around to make anything seem true. Also complicates reviving; it requires any existing characters to go to a NT building, and find an item that can take a few days. Then, they need to find another item before beginning to revive people. Overcomplication is never good. --Saluton 14:41, 13 April 2007 (BST)

How does this nerf revive ques? There is no intention for any nerf; if anything, I'm intending a slight buff and play value addition. I'm not trying to twist any statistics; a poster who comented on a previous version asked that statistics be included. Feal free to post your own statistical analysis; the numbers may need some work.
There is also no intended negative impact on current players gear. Existing syringes and NT scanners would continue to function exactly as they do now. When it came time to re-stock on syringes, characters would instead pick up Serum Vials. You are right, they would have to find an injector, but you usually find a scanner while searching for syringes- it doesn;t take days, because you are already searching for syringes / NT Serum Vials.
(I'll admit, it DOES nerf the revives of folks who have tripped a zerg flag; revives are currently imune to the RNG screw that the zerg flag brings, and this would make them subject to it, just as searches and attacks are. Is that a bad thing?)
If it improves things, perhaps all DNA scanners could be "upgraded" to injectors when the suggestion is implemented, the idea being the upgrade uses parts that can easily be found in any place where Serum Vials would be found?
As for complexity, is there anybody playing this game who can't figure out how to kill a zombie with a pistol? I certainly hope not. Reviving people with an injector would be just as easy. Again, your main complaint here seems the complexity of finding the injector; would the "auto-upgrade" fix that issue? --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 23:44, 13 April 2007 (BST)

I'm not a maths wiz, but the numbers seem a little strange to me (as all numbers do). I may well be interpreting this wrong but I thought that:

  • NT employment: 20% to hit, 20% to revive on a hit.
    meant that: 1 in 5 attacks hit and 1 in 5 hits revive. So potentially 25 attacks per revive then? (+1 AP for the single vial reload required for the potential 5 hit, and 20 damage dealt due to 4 hits not reviving - a total gain of 30xp)
  • Lab experience: 20% to hit, 40% to revive on a hit.
    meant that: 1 in 5 attacks hit and 2 in 5 hits revive. So potentially 12.5 attacks per revive. No reload necessary, but half(?) as much damage done. A total gain of 20xp.
  • Necronet Access: 25% to hit, 40% to revive on a hit.
    meant that: 1 in 4 attacks hit and 2 in 5 hits revive. So potentially 10 attacks per revive. No reload necessary, and 10(?) damage done due to revive failures. A total gain of 20xp.

It may well be the case that the first attack hits and revives successfully - for a total cost of 1AP (I have deliberately left out the AP cost to find vials and focused on use only). Cheers for clarifying, –Ray Vern Pig.gifphz •T 14:54, 13 April 2007 (BST)

Your numbers look fair enough, given the included caveat that your luck could always run better or worse than average. The general effect is that more AP's are (on average) required to revive, but fewer are required to stock up on the equipment needed to do so (finding a vial is as good as finding 1.6 syringes for most users) with the net result potentially being a slight AP saving over all, especially if you have NecroNet Access. --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 23:44, 13 April 2007 (BST)

Revive Revision v2

Timestamp: S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 21:46, 8 April 2007 (BST)
Type: item and skill revivsion
Scope: NT syringes, people doing revies
Description: Replace NT syringes with the following "weapons" (existing syringes continue to function):
  • Item- Necrotech Injector: 4% encumbrance, 10% base chance to hit, found with 0-5 doses left. 1 AP to use to "attack" with, like any weapon. Found in NT buildings at about 1/5 the rate of current syringes. Can not be manufactured. Each hit uses one "dose"; misses do not use any. Each hit has a variable chance to revive a zombie who is hit based on user skill; revivification is not automatic. Zombies not revived instead take 5 damage. The Injector has no effect if used to attack survivors, barricades, radios, etc.
  • Item- Necotech Serum Vial: used like a pistol clip to reload the Necrotech Injector. Holds 5 doses. 2% encumbrance. Found in NT buildings at about 4/5 the current rate of syringes, or manufactured as per a syringe, using Necronet Access.

Replace NT skills with following:

  • NT Employment: The user has a +5% (15% total) chance to hit with an NT injector, and a 25% to revive a zombie with a hit, in addition to current abilities.
  • Lab Experience: the survivor has a +10% (20% total) chance to hit with an NT injector, and a 50% chance to revive a zombie they hit, in addition to current abilities.
  • Necrotnet Access: the survivor has a +15% (25% total) chance to hit with an NT injector, and a 50% chance to revive a zombie they hit, in addition to current abilities. Can manufacture NT Serum Vials in a powered NT building for 20 AP.

Replace Brain Rot with the following:

  • Zombie is harder to scan (as current)
  • Chances to revive are -50% (for a net -25% or 0% outside of powered NT buildings)

Powered NT building Effects:

  • All current effects remain
  • +25% chance to revive zombie hit with NT injector (allowing up to 75% revival rates, or up to 25% for zombies with Brain Rot)

Likely Revisions before writing this up for voting, added 00:51, 11 April 2007 (BST)

  • Decrease Injector / Vial "ammo" capacity to 4 doses
  • Injector Encumbrance increased to 6%, but Injector also functions as a DNA scanner )
  • Vials found instead of needles ; injectors found instead of scanners
  • Newly created Necrotech Lab Assistant starts with an Injector with 0 (zero) doses instead of a DNA scanner.

Discussion

An attempt to make things a bit more entertaining for the players doing the revives, and to slightly boost starting NT Lab Assistants. Also makes NecroNet Access and powered NT buildings more useful, and lets most revive workers go much longer without needing to restock.
Some quick math shows that, on average, it takes 26.66 AP's and 4 serum doses to revive using a NT injector and NT Employment, 10AP's and 2 doses with NT Lab Expereince, or 8AP's and 2 doses with Necronet Access.
The news update flavor text could be along the lines of the 10AP to revive update.
Necrotech introduces new strains of revivification drugs, allowing technicians to optimize effects based on DNA information and personal experience. The new serums are loaded into a re-usable, field serviceable injection unit that has a greater pumping capacity than current single use syringes, allowing properly trained users to both carry a larger supply of serums and deliver it more quickly.
--S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 21:50, 8 April 2007 (BST)
I like the idea of turning the syringe into a weapon, but some parts of your suggestion provide a significant boost to survivors. For example - it currently costs 20AP to manufacture a single syringe, you are suggesting that it becomes 20AP to manufacture the equivalent to 5 syringes - errm...no. Also, this suggestion makes it possible to revive brain rotted zombies outside of powered NTs - that's a big nerf to Brainrot, so no again.
If each injector came with a refillable vial, the injectors were 10% encumberance, it cost 20AP to create a single dose in the vial (vial carries 5 doses) or single dose capsules can be found to refill the vial - search rate the same as current syringes, 1AP to refill - that would go someway to correcting it in my eyes....oh and dump the revive brainrot outside a powered NT. –Ray Vern Pig.gifphz •T 01:45, 9 April 2007 (BST)
The weapon effect was popular for the previous version, but for this one I made it petty minor, and pretty much only useful vs brain rotted zombies, or zombies with very low HP's. Its mainly there for flavor, though it does boost the experience folks (especially those working with only NT Employment) earn when attempting revives.
This suggestion is NOT intended to make it possible to revive Brain Rotted zombies outside a powered NT; you may have read the math differently than I intended, and I have updated the description to avoid this confusion. In fact, this suggestion would BUFF brain rot, by making Rot Revives in a powered NT harder than they currently are; on average it would cost at least 16AP's and 4 doses of Serum to pull off for a tech who has Necronet Access.
I think you also overstate the boost this gives to normal revives; because the Injector can consume a dose and still fail to revive, a Serum Vial is equal to 1.25 syringes for those with NT Employment, and 2.5 syringes for those with NT Lab Experience or Necronet Access. Its even slightly worse than that when you factor in the 1 AP spent to load the vial into injector. This boost is offset partly by the need to find and carry an NT Injector, and partly by the small chance that you will (very occasionally) "kill" the zombie you are trying to revive. But yes, it is intended to make stocking up for revive runs a bit less tedius, and to let scientists take a more active game role by spending less time searching for gear, and more actually doing things.
Your revision to the suggestion would make revives of the normal sort significantly harder than they currently are; getting a single serum dose would be as hard as getting a syringe is currently, but serum fails to work more often (though takes less AP to use) compared with a syringe. On average, your version would require people to spend twice as long searching- exactly what survivors do NOT need right now. And that's without spending AP loading the injector. Also, with a minimum encumbrance of 10%, a lot of people would choose not to carry any injector; my version lets somebody spend just 4% encumbrance if they want a minor revive ability. I could however see upping both encumbrances, if others feel they are to low. But 10% for a piece of gear that revives 2.5 zombies for the typical user is DOUBLE the current encumbrance using syringes!
Perhaps dropping the injector and serum vial capacity would solve some of these issues. At 2 doses per vial, they are equivalent to current syringes, but slightly worse as they require the injector to use, and you need to spend an AP loading the injector. 3 or 4 is actually pretty close to equal, when all is said and done; the need to re-load after every 3 or 4 hits would make it less of a boost than it looks at first. So actually, the "5 doses per vial" is not so big a boost as it looks at first glance, though it is still pretty good. I'll play with the numbers a bit- maybe there does need to be less a boost to the rate at which Serum vs Syringes are manufactured.
--S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 01:59, 9 April 2007 (BST)
Right, I get where you're coming from now....my bad for mis-interpreting that part of it. The whole thing seems to over complicate what is currently a reasonably straightforward in-game action. It might help understanding if you provided example maths fot each skill level (describing how you reached your figures too, not just the figures). –Ray Vern Pig.gifphz •T 11:42, 9 April 2007 (BST)
The stat breakdown would probably be a good idea for the final voting suggestion, yeah. I don't think this would actually be more complex in practice; its not like attacking a zombie with a pistol is all that complicated. What is aims for is more variability, and more player involvement. Clicking a button to spend 10 AP three or four times and then running back to your safe house makes for pretty dull game play! --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 03:59, 10 April 2007 (BST)

I like this revision a lot better than the weaponized version of the NT Injector, suggested earlier. What makes this so much better is that damage only occurs on a failed revive. One thing I don't see in here is approximate XP gain bonuses. Does Medical get any XP for on a failed revive for accidentally hurting the zombie? Does Military? Do Civilians? How much XP is given for successful revives for each class?-- Kai Tan Sying NecroTech Corp. R&D 13:15 10 April 2007 (MST)

I was figuring the XP's would be just like they are now. Doing damage to a zombie earns a survivor 1 XP per damage done, so a failed revive would net you 5XPs, plus 10XPs if this killed the zombie. Reviving the zombie would be worth a flat 10XPs, as it is now. Character class (as it is now) would be irrelevant. This would increase the XP people earn doing revives by a bit, but not by nearly as much as the previous suggestion did. --S.WiersctdpNTmapx:oo 00:51, 11 April 2007 (BST)

cycled

--~~~~T''' 19:52, 23 August 2007 (BST)

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