User:Aichon/Other/Alt Proximity Warning

Alt Proximity Warning

Timestamp: —Aichon— 08:26, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: Interface

Scope: Players with alts

Description: Many Urban Dead players have multiple characters (alts) that they play. The rule regarding alts is relatively simple, but is oftentimes overlooked by new players. Even veteran players may occasionally run afoul of the rule if they don't keep track of the locations of all of their characters, and find that a few of them wander into one another's vicinity. This suggestion is aimed at helping players identify and move away from these sorts of accidental occurrences, rather than dealing with intentional zerging. This suggestion proposes a proximity warning whenever characters controlled by the same individual (as identified by e-mail address) are getting too close to each other. Similar to the IP warning, if a character moves within 10 blocks of another character controlled by that player, they would receive a simple warning along the lines of, "This character is nearing CHARACTER_NAME, another character in your control (you are X blocks away). Please be aware of the rules regarding multiple characters and be sure to abide by them." As for why e-mail addresses are used, rather than IP addresses, cookies, or some other means, the reason is simple: if those other means were used, zergers could test, map, and learn the limits of the current detection mechanisms used by Urban Dead for anti-zerging, enabling them to more easily circumvent them in the future. By using e-mail addresses instead, the accounts that are linked are obvious, no information about the actual detection mechanisms is given away, and the warning becomes a tool for honest players to identify times that they might be absentminded. Again, this suggestion is not aimed at curbing intentional zerging, but, rather, just honest accidents made by regular players. Please note that the existing countermeasures will still be in place, as they are currently. This suggestion is not intended to modify, remove, or otherwise alter them at all.

Discussion (Alt Proximity Warning)

Essentially a Dupe. Apparently I'm too tired to read properly. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 10:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. I've often wished I had a tool like this. I have 6 characters in Malton and some of them by their nature tend to spend more time in the central suburbs, so they often do get too close without me noticing (though I've never noticed my attack or search rates decrease as a result.)
And it's not a dupe. The previous suggestion was rejected partly because it is based on IP address and might have revealed too much about the implementation. This one is based on e-mail address and does not have that problem. --Explodey 10:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Woo! Reading that was a rollercoaster. The initial idea was brilliant, but your counter-counter argument kind of made me more against it. At the end you picked it up. You've got a Keep from me.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 11:07, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Not sure how many people deal with this kind of thing, since I think those who have multiple alts generally know where they all are. But it certainly can't hurt. You've got my support too. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 14:13, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, for most people it shouldn't come up often, if at all, but that's actually kinda where this suggestion comes into its own. The few times my characters did get close to each other were infrequent and unexpected. It'd just be good to realize it immediately, rather than discovering it after the fact. Most people definitely won't bump into this on a regular basis, I should think. —Aichon— 19:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Why not? My one question is whether this warning pops up on every action inside the range, or just one that makes you enter it? I'd kind of like to know when I leave the range in case I just need to speed through on the way to somewhere else. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I had thought it would pop up every time while you're in the vicinity. So, the "X blocks" I mentioned would change as you get closer or move away. In other words, you'd know the entire time that you were in range, and could tell you were clear when the message went away. —Aichon— 19:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 19:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, possible griefing if you know the target's email, but still a relatively minor flaw.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 19:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Ooh, that is true. In fact, that could be a fatal flaw in this system. It'd either let you track them down so that you could attack them directly, or it might engage the actual anti-zerging measures. I don't know how the countermeasures work, so if Kevan does use e-mail addresses as a means of linking accounts together, you could effectively render another person's character useless by putting a throwaway character of your own with the same e-mail address near them. I don't have a quick solution, unfortunately. Any ideas? After all, this is developing suggestion. :) —Aichon— 20:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

He uses IP. People using the same IP but different emails have beened banned before.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 20:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, we know he uses IP, but who says he doesn't use e-mail as well? I didn't want to limit the countermeasures through this suggestion. That's all. —Aichon— 22:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't both characters get that message? Then all the victim would have to do is change his listed email address; also, kevin isn't going to start letting people get hit by zerging countermeasures because they list a certain email. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 21:13, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

You can't change your email, methinks.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes you can. --Explodey 22:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I thought you couldn't. Ah well, no problem then. Oh, but you might not know they were using it to find you. I guess it's just the personal preference of whether the benefit is worth helping griefers find you.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I suppose we could add an opt-in to the settings page as well, that way people have to choose to use it, rather than having it defaulted to "on". —Aichon— 22:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The person being targeted would always know someone was using it, because they'd be getting an alt alert message with no alts nearby or getting the same message; it can't be used to track someone, because they'll just change their address. I like Achion's idea of making it optional as well. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:46, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I assume that both alts would need to have the box checked then?--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, wait. Filling in an email essentially would work as checking the box, wouldn't it?--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, some people already have their e-mail addresses filled since they want to be able to recover their passwords in case of losing them, so we can't really consider it an opt-in to this suggestion. As for how that would work, yeah, I would assume so. Both would have to have it checked. —Aichon— 22:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, that certainly deals with griefing, but you may face opposition with cluttering up the settings page. That's a doozy of a problem for some people.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:58, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

No one really understands all the anti zerging countermeasures that are in place, and I feel it should stay that way. I feel its a lot easier to force people to play it safe, rather then pushing the nearness of characters to its limit. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:26, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree entirely, which is why this suggestion makes a point of not telling people when they're activating the actual countermeasures. All it does is look at e-mail addresses and tell people when two characters with the same address are near. It doesn't tell people when they've been spotted as a zerger via the countermeasures, since I too think that would be a bad idea. I addressed this very issue in the (admittedly lengthy) suggestion text, just because I knew it would come up. —Aichon— 22:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I know it is a poor reason, but I had suggested something similar to Simon, and the response was "too many database checks". And not everyone has set an email, what of those people? --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 22:26, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to go for "they miss out on this handy feature", also, server load isn't really a legitimate downvote reason for something like this, is it? If it's a good idea, I think whether it's too tough to implement code-wise should be a developer call. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:28, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It should just be a single SELECT statement followed up by some simple math to calculate distance between blocks. Getting a list of people in a normal building would be on par in terms of stress, I would think. Getting a list of people in a crowd would probably be more stressful. Oh, and yes, as Lelouch said. The people simply wouldn't be able to take advantage of it. There's no harm in that; it simply doesn't benefit them though. —Aichon— 22:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really have anything to do with complexity, just that the constant checks every time any character does something. And I just figured out that I can add an email, haha. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 22:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, to put it in perspective, loading your inventory (even if you're a zombie) already happens with every page load, and the inventory would be significantly more demanding to query (though even that is pretty light anyway, I'd imagine). This lookup would really be a VERY lightweight operation, since I think it should be easier than inventory, even if it had to happen with every page load. —Aichon— 22:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Your inventory doesn't change every time you do something, though. Neither of us has any idea what we are talking about, but the suggestion ain't too shabby. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I would make one change to stop this feature being used to locate other characters (in the rare cases when you know their email address.) Include a built-in delay, so you only start getting the warning message 4 days after you update your email address. But the other player (whose address you matched) probably set their own e-mail address months ago, so they start seeing the message immediately. 4 days gives them time to react or idle out. --Explodey 23:28, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems like you're starting to over complicate things there. I'm not saying that would be a bad system, but why add bells and whistles to something that is inherently beautiful in its simplicity? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 02:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Plus, if someone is hunting in order to grief, that would just delay the griefing by a few days and wouldn't fix the problem. I do have one other idea though: what about simply confirming e-mail addresses? If e-mail addresses were confirmed by having to click a link that gets sent to your address, this whole thing would be a non-issue. Of course, there's the question of how to deal with everyone currently in the game that has an e-mail address entered. Thoughts? —Aichon— 04:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Just make all changes from now on require confirmation. It won't harm anyone. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Simple solution. I like it. Does it seem ready to go to forward then with the things we've all discussed? —Aichon— 22:14, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Not my call, but I like it as is. Just add in the email-confirmation part. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

What about for those people that didn't include an email address when they started a character?--Pesatyel 04:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Players can enter an e-mail address from the Settings page. If none is entered, then as far as this suggestion is concerned, the characters aren't considered to be in control of the same player, and the person won't get the benefit of being warned when they get close to their other characters. The existing countermeasures would not be affected, of course. —Aichon— 04:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not reading wall of text, though a skim shows this idea has already been brought up. It's a radar system for me to find people to grief them. This could work as a personal add-on, recording where your characters are and giving you the option of seeing their proximity on a map, however as a game update it's pointless, I can have two characters 11 suburbs apart and breaking the rules, having numbers in the actual game about these things just gives certain groups a licence to zerg more. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

We addressed the radar issue by suggesting that e-mail addresses will need to be confirmed from now on, that way people can't use others' addresses. As for the other issue, that isn't any different than it is now. You're right that this doesn't warn against all types of zerging, but that wasn't the point. As I said, this is simply a tool to help honest players recognize when they've accidentally brought two of their characters too close to each other. Nothing more than that. It's not meant to act as a deterrent to intentional zerging, nor do I see how it would encourage it, since I doubt zergers would want to open up a new avenue for possibly being detected by using this feature. —Aichon— 19:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I've changed my mind after reading some bug reports. I now think the player should be warned when they have triggered the real zerg flag, based on their IP address. Revealing more about the zerging countermeasures would reduce the bogus bug reports by people who think they have triggered the zerg flag but in reality just had an unlucky run of attacks/searches. These would be replaced by real reports of the zerg detection function being broken, which it is. Players who are determined to get away with zerging already can and do (by setting up a private proxy) so I don't think this would do any harm. --Explodey 16:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

If we used the actual detection mechanisms, this suggestion wouldn't really have a chance (see the previous suggestion, as well as Rosslessness' comment here). Setting up proxies isn't quite so black-and-white, since some proxies don't mask IP address, leaving you open to detection still. Giving the zerger a chance to test that out and receive confirmation that they've succeeded in fooling the system is not something we want. We'd effectively be lowering the difficulty bar for intentional zerging, making it easier for new people to start doing it. Besides, dealing with bug reports is kinda outside the scope of this suggestion, I should think, though I do see where you're coming from. —Aichon— 19:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

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