Talk:Columbine Kids

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RULES • Be courteous. Or at the very least, literate. • Sign your posts or they will be removed. • Download one of THESE before proceeding. • Newest entries at the top where indicated - new heading for each one. • Last but not least (and just in-case you were wondering) it's already been done, so don't waste your time! COMMENTS Template? Do you have a template?--Maps 09:20, 29 August 2009 (BST) Columbine Kids Supporter This user supports the shooting of jocks, nerds and emos during a zombie apocalypse and then blaming it all on Marilyn Manson and not focusing on how the zombie apocalypse has affected class sizes, teachers' wages, mental health care availability for young people, reckless prescription of anti-depressants to teenagers by doctors corrupted by multinational pharmaceutical companies, when all they (teenagers, not the doctors) really need is someone to talk to, video games, violent movies and whatnot. ALL HAIL MARILYN MANSON!!!!! --Maps 11:12, 29 August 2009 (BST) Thanks for that, mate. :o) --Papa Moloch 23:25, 3 September 2009 (BST) I love our talk page. i had no idea this many people had vaginas on this wiki.. god we rock.----Your Own Guilt Here here, I almost got in trouble at work beacause I was laughing so loud at some of the complaints people have taken the time to write--Pyromonkey 13:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC) I'm Disgusted Normally, I'm all for black humor. I've always been able to see the humor in dark places. But some situations are not to be joked about. This group is completely uncalled for and offensive to many. The survivors of that event have been severely traumatized, and the fact that you would make light of a situation as twisted and sick as Columbine is disgusting. It's not cool, or edgy, or even remotely funny. Imagine if a family member of a deceased student were to stumble across this page? It's been almost ten years, but some wounds remain raw for decades. People lost their children, because two mentally unstable kids decided that they had the right to take the lives of innocents. Your ignorance is appalling, and I pray that you realize how pathetic and sickening this is. I don't know your situation, I don't know you, but the fact that you find this funny and are willing to base a group off of the Columbine massacre suggusts that you are in need of mental evaluation and therapy. I realize you're trying to make a joke and that you don't want people to take you seriously. The fact is, many people do take this seriously, and are deeply offended. Just because you are not affected by it does not mean that you should treat everyone (especially people who have had a personal experience with such a topic) like they are following the same train of thought as you are. On a side note, one which I'm sure will solely be focused on so you don't have to address the above statement: I don't know the two people that Carrion Jack is talking about, or even Jack himself, but he's asking you politely to remove two people who've been through enough trauma already. If you are as emotionally immune as you constantly brag, you wouldn't be as angry as you appear to be at them attacking you. I'm not excusing their actions, don't get me wrong. It just seems odd that people who seem so fed up with the world, and so pissed off at nearly everyone, are venting their frustration on the Internet, where there is no threat of retaliation for their actions. Some might call it cowardly. Almost as cowardly as using automatic weapons on unarmed innocents. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. And, if you're going to respond, at least have the maturity to address all of what I'm saying, not just something you can snap off a one-liner including the word 'fuck'. User:Steven Faer You misunderstand us: We're not unaware of potential offense and trauma that could be caused by our group and we're certainly not angry when people complain: We love it! We love pissing off people like you and Jack and all the other people who get so pissed off at the name and style of our group that they take time out of their days to compose complaints for this page. We get off on your offense, your tears, your impotent frustration. I created the group, wrote the wiki front page, chose the images, and I did so specifically in order to enjoy the whining that would come. So, on behalf of Columbine Kids, I'd like to thank each and every complainant on this page for being the guys you are, because without you this stuff wouldn't be even half as enjoyable and gratifying. --Unhappydisgustingwow 17:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC) Once again, I suggust that you attend a therapist and get mentally evaluated. Your resoning behind this is not normal, and incredibly unhealthy. You call us impotent, and I can't help but laugh at the irony. We realize you won't see how incredibly sick this is and take it down. But, we see something wrong, and we stand up and say something, no matter what you'll think. Without expectations of a good result, we cannot be disappointed. Therefore, no tears or 'impotent frustration'. The true impotence here is your own, because you can't make enough of a difference in real life, so you have to go on the Internet, begging for someone to notice you. Since no one cares about you or your pathetic existence, or that fact that you're going through divorce, or a death in the family, or that the jocks at school took a piss on you, you have to offend people to even get someone to talk to you. We do not consider responding a waste of time. To do something else after seeing this would be a waste of time. Just know that once you get off of the computer, you'll still be in the real world. As powerful and godlike as this makes your feel, you're still just lying to yourself. You'll finish your post in response, get up out of your chair, and then you'll realize that nothing has changed. Hurts a bit, doesn't it? That your hardest efforts brought about no return except a bit of minor, fleeting satisfaction. There's still that seed of doubt, that you're not really that important. That you haven't made any difference in the world. That, in the big picture, you are small and insignificant. User: Steven Faer Ah, that old favourite of the keyboard warrior: Psychoanalysing complete strangers over the internet and trying to make assumptions about their real lives. Gosh, how incredibly lacking in insight. Let's just consider a couple of things: You imply that we at Columbine Kids lack lives, interests, personal significance, etc. However, it is you who came to us. We have no interest in you and never did, yet you are the one attaching not only internet significance to us, but also real-life significance due to the apparent threat that we pose to the psychological well-being of victims of similar crimes to those parodied herein. You took time out of your day to make this approach. You got pent up, bent out of shape and just had to say something. Us? We just posted the wiki and got on with our game. We only noticed you when you came here, yet you accuse us of seeking attention? Look in the mirror. The wiki was indeed designed to seek attention for the group in the same way that all others are, with the only difference being that ours takes on a satirical bent. Everyone who comes here to complain about us is seeking our attention and they often get a small portion of it. You're getting a little more than usual because of your comical lack of insight and delusions of personal understanding of our players. You see, satire is one of the oldest forms of comedy and our page is satirical. We portray the Columbine killers as dull-witted repressed homosexuals who are obsessed with video games and Marilyn Manson. This is in the traditions of Brass Eye and The Day Today, as well as other similar works of dark satire. We find it funny and we are not alone. Indeed, we get fan mail on our forum as often as hate mail. So, by your lacklustre definition, all who do not find this page offensive and in fact find it funny must be psychologically challenged. How very presumptuous and intellectually arrogant of you. Now I shall consider your 'understanding' of the lives of our players. Somehow you believe that you have personal insight into the lives of our players, but naturally we know that that is impossible, so what emerges once again is your intellectual arrogance and an apparent fantasy of karmic retribution. A census of the members of Columbine Kids revealed only a few teenagers and they were all notably literate and quite witty. Amongst the rest of us were a Batchelor of Arts studying for an MA, a BSC Psychology student, a nurse and a historian. Some have kids, some don't. You see, we have this game in perspective: It is something trivial but amusing to pass the time when nothing important is happening. So, why is it that you try to construct this personal fantasy in which we're all so very unimportant in our real lives? I believe that you want desperately to believe that we're the teenagers whom we portray on these pages, because that would allow you to leave this with that same smug sense of superiority, but you have no real insight, only storied assumption and a desperate desire to believe your own constructed perception. You want to believe, so you manufacture a series of assumptions whereby you can suspend your personal disbelief long enough to do so. The reality is that only a very small number of people are truly important in the global scheme of things: None of us fall into that category and I feel quite safe in assuming that you do not either, or else I doubt you would be taking this much time over the UD wiki. Were I more the presumptuous type I would suspect that your accusations are an instance of Projection, with you trying to imprint your own personal sense of inadequacy upon us. I might even choose to look at your group and your personal profiles, see yet another military-themed group in Urban Dead and decide that you are lacking in any semblance of wit or imagination; that you are Republican; that you have deep-seated sexual fantasies about being violated by soldiers. However, I'm not that type and so will not make such assumptions. You don't matter enough for me to construct a fantasy of imagined personal failings on your part. It is easy to make assumptions and post pseudo-psychoanalysis over the internet. Do try not to repeatedly fall into the trap, because it will only make you look a fool, regardless of whether you are or not. Remember: Everything here exists only in the game. Every time you feel the need to comment upon us you make us matter, right here and right now. This is our victory in the game. As for out of it? Well, you'll never know. But you'll assume, because it's the only weapon that you have. This is, once again, our victory and your failure. --Unhappydisgustingwow 01:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC) I'll admit that certain parts are funny, namely the "Marylin Manson made us do it" piece. I'm all for satire, as I said in my first post, I just think that some topics are not to be joked about, at least not this publically. I posted not out of a need for attention, (though I'm sure we all agree that neither of us will prove that one way or another, due to it being a my word against yours situation) but only because I felt that I had to say something. I can't imagine how someone who's survived an event such as Columbine would feel upon reading this page. I agree that your wiki is designed to attract attention, and does an amazing job, in fact. However, I can't imagine an adult stooping to that level. I assumed you were all repressed teenagers, hopefully who didn't know any better. You pointed out that many of you are well educated, which implies that you do know better. Education is not a shield to hide behind, saying that working for a BSC in Psychology, or being a historian makes you suddenly immune to any criticism. I'm sure the nurse of your group has seen post traumatic stress before, and he or she should feel ashamed for possibly dredging up memories of some horrific event. I do not see a desperate belief to slap you into the 'dumb teenager' category. It'd be nicer, cleaner, and would certainly help me sleep at night. Most teens are fools and are easy to dismiss because of their lack of experience, but that fact that people who have gone to college and actually finished with degrees would have the audacity and ignorance to post something so potentially harmful worries me. Also, the fact that adults would stoop to the level of pre-adolescents when it suits them, cracking jokes about anal penetration with a baseball bat and parental rape, then switch and suddenly pull a holier-than-thou-you're-a-fool routine, makes me wonder about the validity of the information you've posted. I doubt you'd lie, not so exactally at least, so that, too, is a foregone conclusion, because neither of us can prove that your job is working at a hospital or studying history, not burger-flipping. Before I go any further, I'd like to say that I do not matter on the global scale, like most people. Hell, even on a statewide scale, most of us don't matter. It was a nice trick to get in your jibes about my political affiliation, the scanning of my groups, my so-called lack of wit, and any sexual fantasies, while still making it look like you took the high ground. Your final paragraph makes me wonder the sincerity of your earlier statements of not feeling inadequate. It seems like you're still hanging on the fact that people are noticing you, and that you're still hoping that others will comment to, in your own words, make you matter. You say it's all existing in the game. If that were true, I'd have absolutely no qualms about it. The fact is, the impact of these wiki pages and the message that it sends, about how someone's experience with watching friends and teachers die, or a family member's loss of a loved one, is considered comical to you, that reaches far beyond the game. I don't recall getting 'bent out of shape' as you say. My posts are not make out of anger, but out of concern for anyone innocent who might happen across this. Personally, I'm not bothered by this page. I think it's in poor taste, sure, but I won't loose sleep over it. I am merely showing concern for people who have had to deal with a Columbine situation. To put it into perspective, imagine that someone kills your parents, then later someone makes a website for people who want to roleplay parent killing? They slap pictures of the the killers standing in your home, your parents cowering on the floor in front of them. They tack on a little word bubble using chatspeak with some humurous phrase. Now, when you complain, they tell you to shrug it off because they couldn't give a 'tenth of a fuck' what you think. You can't tell me that you wouldn't be hurt by that. If the parents don't get to you, for those of you with kids, substitute them into there. Could you 'see the satire' in your dead children? Neither can the parents of the victims of the Columbine Killings. I ask you to remember your impact, intentional or not. There is very real pain caused by this. User:Steven Faer In Memoriam April 20th It was on this date in 1999 that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold shot and killed the following people at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado: Cassie Bernall - Steven Curnow - Corey DePooter - Kelly Fleming - Matthew Kechter - Daniel Mauser - Daniel Rohrbough - William "Dave" Sanders - Rachel Joy Scott - Isaiah Shoels - John Tomlin - Lauren Townsend - Kyle Velasquez They then took their own lives. The image shown on the front page is from the security camera footage captured that day of Eric and Dylan. Lest we forget; this was a real event that affected real lives. A Salam a Lakum Rocky Ford 05:24, 21 April 2008 (BST) Rest in peace *tyrin sign*--Jay dark one 16:02, 21 April 2008 (BST) Just a Thought "While those of you who have never experienced this sort of thing in real life might find this funny, it is extremely painful to those of us who have"... I have experienced this sorta thing in fact much more horrible things than what you described and i still find this funny, so before you say something like that make sure you speak for everyone. -- trifle195 Well fucking said. -- Crystal C-Kids Traumatic Experiences I would like to point out that while those of you who have never experienced this sort of thing in real life might find this funny, it is extremely painful to those of us who have. Two of the guys in my group (ortallem and tobias rowan) knew Andrew Ellmaker, were even in the same class as him. Guess what he did. He killed his social worker with a knife and was was proceeding to cut up the body with a CHAINSAW when his mother got home. He promptly attacked her with it. She got away. He was only charged with aggravated assault (not premeditated murder, which is what it technically should have been since he tried to dispose of the body). So while you guys might find this sort of shit funny, you are causing some of my members real pain with your juvenile antics. They had to go to counseling after the incident. I would appreciate it if you would remove them from your KOS list. It's really immature to prey on those who have survived such tragedies. -- Carrion Jack All of which has what to do with us or Columbine? Actually, don't bother answering, because I couldn't give one tenth of a fuck. They stay on the list. -- Unhappydisgustingwow They're only on the KOS because they attacked us first. They can't land the first blow, and then run away crying 'we're traumatised!' when we strike back. -- Crystal C-Kids Ever stop to think that they attacked because they have been through so much? It's not them that came to you asking you to lay off, it was Jack. He was respectfully asking that you back off before things got ugly... FYI, Unhappydisgustingwow, I have a baseball bat I would love to introduce to your face. In real life. People like you are lower than slime. -- Ironhyde ZOMG! INTERNET HARDMAN! IZ SCARED! Would that be the same baseball bat that you use to sexually penetrate your own rectum on a twice-nightly basis? If so, at least wash it off first before this oh-so-scary cyber-fucktardfest. -- Unhappydisgustingwow Oh dear. It has insulted my sexuality. What ever shall I do. What are you, five? STOP PROJECTING YOUR OWN SEXUAL INADEQUACY ONTO OTHER PEOPLE. Just because you have a tiny penis doesn't mean that you should take it out on the rest of the world. And just so you know, it's rather easy to track someone over the internet using their signal. If some 15 year old kid in Yemen can hack the CIA mainframe, it should be a breeze for my programming friend to find you. -- Ironhyde You really are the most comical turd in the sewer. Take your pathetic 'threats' and get back to sexually molesting the under-tens who actually find them impressive, you tedious little inadequate. -- Unhappydisgustingwow Don't forget guys... Internetz: Serious Business -- Crystal C-Kids OH NOES! I'm packing up the fam' & moving out west, 'cause here come the pimply e-nerds referencing the CIA! Can't find Osama? No Matter! They've found the Columbine Kids! -- Canker Sore|CK | GC | ZHU | MEM | You seemed to have missed the original point by CrystalEyes, no, they didn't come here asking to be taken off KOS themselves, but they came to us to start this shit in the first place, if our presence continues to traumatize them then they should've stayed the fuck away from us. To attack us and then get emo because we attacked them back (even if they themselves were just complaining to their own group members) is fucking stupid, they can't have expected any other response from us. If you've got a cut and you want it to heal then you just get on with your day and ignore it, you don't go poking it with a stick -- Jud Grigori I only just... ... read your talk page, it is fucking awesome, some very funny content. And the retards that come here to complain are most hilarious. I would like to congratulate you on that. Also I wish the guy with the commi-whore party, i wish you the best of luck with that. -- Skyvia Fuck you ... You fucking emos. How the fuck can you take that Columbine shooting this fucking lightly? Did Marlyn Manson tell you to fucking do this? Or is this to make up for your own, secret shortcomings? In closing, fuck you, emo motherfuckers. May you all burn in the same dregion of hell as Dylan and Eric. No, you'd probably get all orgasmic with them on your first day. Fuck you, -- Comrade 47 Seven whole variants of the word "Fuck"! Bravo! And in only as many sentences! Impressive! -- Canker Sore|CK | GC | ZHU | MEM | We are playing a game not for real life. Although Columbine Kids is a PKer group they are frankly like all of us and that is people form all over the world playing a internet game online. -- Forgotten86 Yeah, it's a game, but this 'shock value' page is just fucking disgusting. You members are aware that people died at Columbine, right? And that 'Columbine' isn't a emo band, right? -- Comrade 47 I once took a look at their wiki and saw only black humor and ended up having my alt join them. There on their forum I found no trace or evidence of them glorifying the Columbine tragedy. We all know it is sad to have such things happen around the world but come on. Even the name Columbine has been used before the Columbine tragedy: Columbine II and Columbine III, the Lockheed Constellation presidential aircraft used by US President Dwight D. Eisenhower, so named the state flower of wife Mamie's home state of Colorado Columbine, a locomotive of the Grand Junction Railway, now preserved at the Science Museum in London (Source: Wikipedia, Columbine) Columbine is an unincorporated town and census-designated place located mostly in Jefferson County, Colorado, with a small part in Arapahoe County, Colorado, and lying immediately west of Littleton. (Source: Wikipedia, Columbine, Colorado) And lastly a flower Wild Columbine (Aquilegia canadensis) is a wildflower of the Ranunculaceae family. (Source: Wikipedia, Aquilegia canadensis) Conclusion: CK and the two two students of Columbine High School are not related in any other way nor glorifying them for the 1999 incident. That is what I think! -- Forgotten86 You Fuckers My name is lee hong. you guys are fucking retards. i will track you down annd kick the shit out of each of you guys. so you retards can find me easier I'm with the The malton vietcong. i am also in the stansbury area. i hope you retards can find me. lee hong So, what you're saying is that you love us long time and will sucky-sucky, only five dolla, yes? --Unhappydisgustingwow Has Lee Hong killed any of us to date? Pretty good hiding spot, I'll need a Colt .45 and a flashlight to find him. -- Edward Katanahands Marine3303 Just letting you know, Marine3303 seems to be using the Nicks Arms in Roftwood [68-58] as a safehouse. The only reason I'm letting you know this is because my clan is planning on using it as a HQ (I'm preparing it ahead of time), and Marine3303 has oversprayed our grafiti a few times. I would kill him myself, but he's on your KOS, so I figured one of you would want the honour. (And because getting into the good books of a Pking group is never a bad idea.) --Shinysheep CK isn't really in the contract-killing business, however I suppose the head's-up is appreciated. With that said, I've got Marine3303 marked as an RP hacker, & w/ him being level 7 & all, I'll chock the situation up as a n00b who didn't know better. Still, while I'm not surprised that he made our KOS list, his low priority deems it rather ridiculous for any of us to take any action beyond a chance encounter. --Canker Sore|CK | GC | ZHU | MEM | Congratulations! madwench just went KOS on the Rogues Gallery... I think? Spotted it when I was checking peoples bounty's and thought it'd be interesting. Also, I'm back in S. Blythville if you guys want to go mall hunting etc. --RRAshley Valentine Fankoo! Yeah, she shot up from 15, bless her! We're not currently in S.Blytheville but we'll be back there soon enough... ;o) -- Crystal C-Kids You Guys... ... are fucking whores and sit if you ever cross the cpm we will totally fuck you up emo junkie. so go fuck marilyn manson and his hiv positive dog you satan fuckers. and another thing go fuck yourself -- Rober e killer And a *very* good day to you too, sir... who or what is the cpm? -- Crystal C-Kids The communist party of malton whore -- Rober e killer The Malton whore has her own party? I had no idea your mother is so political. -- Unhappydisgustingwow The Malton communist Whore party? Aha, I just lol'd. That'd be a weird sight to see. -- --Ash  |  T  |  яя  | Your Group... ... is in very bad taste and generally gay. Well that is about it, have a nice day -- Airborne88T|Z.Quiz|PSS Speaking of gay things that you do not enjoy the taste of, has your father started washing his cock before he stuffs it in your mouth to suck clean, or do you still have to taste the smegma and shite accumulated whilst he's fucking your arse? --Unhappydisgustingwow The answer to your question is no. But I a sorry if you are speaking from personnel experience. You know, they are doing wonders with medication these days. -- Airborne88T|Z.Quiz|PSS So, the answer to the question is 'no' and so you admit to all of the above and your father does not even have the decency to wash it. It's good to know that you have come to terms with it enough to be so honest. Don't worry, because it'll be better for you one day. One day your dad will die and it'll just be your grandfather, uncles and your strap-on clad mother pounding your frail rectum into haemorrhoid-strafed oblivion. -- Unhappydisgustingwow Huh. I just assumed you all were looking for attention. *Airborne gives you attention* (edit-not blink now) Oh wow look! There is lint on the floor! Wow!! I gotta go. -- Airborne88T|Z.Quiz|PSS Rule #37 of arguing on the Teh Internets: If you can't think of a decent comeback, just walk away. Failure to adopt this rule almost always leaves you looking like a bit of a tit. -- Crystal C-Kids Oh, I forgot I was arguing here. I guess the reason I am having trouble generating witty responses is because I am not really offended at all. I thought it was kinda funny everyone else got so upset so I put up the weakest verbal attack possible ---> "bad taste and gay" I was more poking fun of everyone else than your group. Plus, I see you are shaping up into an actual group (not one person who made a taboo page for attention). Sorry, I can try and be offended if you'd like. It would take some effort but I think I can manage it. Nice new signature BTW. --Airborne88T|Z.Quiz|PSS 05:04, 8 April 2008 (BST) I did wonder. Well, in that case I retract all of my above statements (mostly so I can recycle them for future arguments, but the thought still counts, amirite?). --Unhappydisgustingwow 05:16, 8 April 2008 (BST) *Airborne unplugs the blinking text* No need for that anymore.. (blinking text was the meanest thing I could think of). Oh sure I understand, the thought is still there. I am packing away my blinking text only next time it will be hot pink or maybe neon green. Well that was kinda fun, your page is looking petty good. I will be dropping in from time to time. Cya. --Airborne88T|Z.Quiz|PSS 05:40, 8 April 2008 (BST) Alliance Request Hello We Are The_Great_Taboo We Are Pkers That Wanna Destroy Maltons innocent Survivors and cause havoc cause we can anyway im Rotten Zerg You may Of Heard Of Me In Yagoton. Im The Leader Of This Group Please post back for an alliance --Rotten zerg 10:36, 19 July 2008 (BST) Sure, if you guys are honest PKers, I don't see why not. The city needs more killers. --Unhappydisgustingwow 01:36, 13 October 2008 (BST) The Great Suburb Group Massacre Group Active? Request. In order to maintain the wiki as an up to date source of information groups are occasionally removed from the Suburb pages when they are no longer active. Is this group still active? If so simply confirm here by writing something below. If not it will be removed from suburb pages in 14 days. Currently the suburb in question is Yagoton but one response to this query will be all that is needed to protect your group link on all suburb pages. I know this is a may seem a stupid request but its for all groups regardless of size. Thank you. --Adavastor 21:02, 28 July 2008 (BST) We tour the city, so we never remain in one suburb for long. So no, we aren't active in Yagoton. --JaredTalk SPA CK 23:26, 29 July 2008 (BST) Hmmm Well, I registered at your forum, but by the time it get approved this may be a moot point. Since your last turn * Jacobean Mugatu+ killed Gore Corper. (4 hours and 13 minutes ago) * Jacobean Mugatu+ said "Gore Corper was a Kill on Sight member of the PKer group Columbine Kids." (4 hours and 13 minutes ago) * Jacobean Mugatu+ said "You guys are lucky he didn't get to you." (4 hours and 12 minutes ago) Gee, I feel so safe now knowing he's protecting me. *rolls eyes* The CKs are on our DNR list for the duration of the School Shooting Tour, but I cannot abide stupid kills. If Gore Corper will stand at Nicols Avenue, a revive will be forthcoming in short order. --Violet Begonia Dean MCM MOB 23:35, 20 August 2008 (BST) Alliance Looking for allies. I'm still building my group, but whatever. It will be a PKer group that supports the HAT policy, and that goes against the DEM. If your interested, here's a link to the group page: http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/The_Skorpions So you guys are, like, PKer rebels from the '50s? COOL! I've seen Back to the Future, like, at LEAST twelve times. Well, okay, not all the way through because my ADHD starts to kick in and my therapist says that's why I set fire to those cats, but anyway, it's all good. We can totally be rebels together, man. --Unhappydisgustingwow 01:36, 13 October 2008 (BST) FYI just thought you would like to know that LaPrachio[1] is inside the Schonlau Motel in Pittneybank. Only telling you this cause he PKed me for god only knows why and he is on ur hit list so i figured "my enemy (since you are PKers and I'ma survivor) is the enemy of other enemy".So have fun kicking his ass. Necrowanderer TJ! 18:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)