User:Devorac

	Sorry, what was that first part again?
	This user has ADD, so don't expect them to pay much attention to anything.

	Just Lock the Freaking Doors Already!
	This user can't figure out why survivors don't just lock their doors to keep out the zombies.

	Discussion Page User
	This user actually checks the Discussion Page.

My rant against people who will kill a suggestion due to what the call "useless flavor".

First I would like to point out that by saying this you are a filthy hypocrite (and probably a puppy killing sadist). My reasoning? The item in question -whatever it may be- has a use that you yourself have Identified, IT IS FLAVOR! And because it has a use -that you declared yourself- it cannot be useless.

Second, If you are going to complain about "useless flavor" in your life then every time you open up a package of ramen or mac'n'cheese you should immediately call the company that produces them and complain that they included a "useless flavor" packet with your meal and that it should never happen again. Same goes for pepper, frosting, all artificial flavors, wallpaper, color in general, Etc etc. I can only assume that you yourself are running your computer in black and white to preserve the integrity of your argument, after all a color monitor is useless flavor. Really people, complaining about useless flavor is a sadistic joy killing, fun crushing way to do things, imagine what would happen if you started complaining about useless flavor in real life.

• Shrugs* Not much to see here, I really only created this account so I could post up my suggestions for game improvements.

Some of you strange people might actually want to know that so here they are so far,

[1]

Status: Right now it's still in development, however things are going better than expected.

Here is the old Mk 1 Pipe bomb idea and ten-mile discussion,

Pipe Bombs

Timestamp: Devorac 07:44, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Type: New Weapon

Scope: Survivors, Siege War

Description: Alright, there has without a doubt been some sort of explosive suggested for malton before, they failed for a number of reasons. First: the famous multiply by a billion rule kicks God AOE weapons right out. Second: Sheer overpower, if you can manufacture a grenade for 3 AP then throw it and 25 Damage on a hit, and 15 an a miss to a zombie things will get bad for zombies, and unbalance the game horrifically. Last but not least, they give survivors a weapon that zombies have no effective counter measure, or equivalent attack. However what I propose should hopefully take the first and second reasons into consideration, as well as balancing the weapon so that the last is not so much of an issue. I give you, the pipe bomb! Base Damage: 10 on a "hit" to the zombie it was thrown at, and 5 damage to 5 other zombies (or survivors depending on who you throw it at). on a "Miss" it will deal 5 damage to the target zombie (or survivor) and deal 3 damage to 3 other zombies (or survivors). Encumberance: 12% of total (see below for reason) Base accuracy: 10% to get a direct "hit" on the target. Upgraded to hit: None for now, although I might ask that body building give a slight boost in my revised version. Special Abilities: It does damage even on a miss roll. (see above) By now your probably thinking something along the lines of, "man I'm hungry", or perhaps you are thinking that you are thirsty but I don't care about that right now. As you can see the above solves the problem of the multiply by a billion rule by adding a max number of affected targets as well as keeping the damage down to a moderate level. What it does not solve is the fact that it will always hurt something, and if you could spam these out a single survivor could conceivably kill 50 zombies in a single turn. (as long as they were all together.) So instead of having pipe bombs being found in certain buildings, pipe bombs should be made. Requisite materials for pipe bomb Construction: 1 metal Pipe, 5 shotgun shells, cellphone, toolbox (not consumed by process), construction skill. As you can see the ap cost for gathering the materials is quite high, above 20 AP to gather the ingredients together (that's using a mall to get the phone and the shells) plus another AP to throw the thing, by then you've earned it. However to prevent people from just sitting around making these and going nuts with them it should be given a relatively high encumbrance 10-15% not so much reflecting its weight as the care it has to be treated with. Will it still be balanced? Yes I think so, at roughly 20+ AP to gather the materials + its encumbrance I think it would be a slightly underpowered weapon. Hey but you just said it would be balanced! It will! I predict that the Pipe bomb will become a favorite of PKers, and griefers who will be drawn to the hit and run tactics of the thing (that and the potential massacre). While this may not seem like a good thing it balances the weapon by letting it run just as hot against survivors who make them! If their is anything that I have not addressed or problems that you have, please let me know. I think this will work, and with a bit of feedback I'm sure my wide eyed optimism will be thwarted, but I'll still keep plugging along. So help me here, see what I can't and show me the stupid stuff so I can fix it.

Discussion (Pipe Bombs)

No area-of-effect attacks. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 07:48, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Is that a hard and fast law, or just because its never been done before? By the way how do I get this to look normal? (first suggestion) -Devorac 07:53, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Use colons to get it to indent properly. And it is a hard and fast law, and it's never been done before, because it's ridiculously overpowered. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 07:55, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Laws can be bent, after all this AOE does a MAX of 35 Damage and that is over all targets it could possibly effect, on a perfect roll. It is 90% likely to do only 14 damage total! That and it costs more than 20 AP to make, if anything it's underpowered. -Devorac 08:02, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Only 14 damage... as a guaranteed minimum? lolno. BTW, it has been thought of before -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:47 29 July 2009 (BST)

Yes only 14 damage 5 to target 3 to 3 others. Think of it this way, if you spent the 20 AP gathering Shotguns and shotgun Ammo at a mall, you could easily do 100 Damage in a single turn. No it's not overpowered, just new. Yes Item combining has been though of before, much in the same way that using electrolysis to process aluminum was though of before they found a way to make it work. This is quite a bit different in terms of effort, and damage. -that and 25 damage to a single target is way too high, thats 2 shotgun blasts and a pistol round- Is there any way to get field testing? (to prove that this is not overpowered)-Devorac 18:35, 29 July 2009 (BST)

It's overpowered and new. Searching in a lit mall with both mall skills gives you about a 65% find rate, and with half of that being shotguns (may be off), you'd get about 33% of your AP's worth in shotgun munitions. That is to say, for 20 AP spent, maybe 6 or 7 shells - which comes out to 48-70 damage. Oh, and it's expensive to reload, they're heavy, and thus you can't carry a whole lot at once unless you only take shotguns. So, it comes out to maybe 25-30 AP spent to find 48-70 raw damage. With 65% to hit, that's about 31 to 45 damage. Now for zombies! With all the hand skills, we'll say the hit chance is 55% (with grasp's bonus intermittently) - so for 25 AP spent, that's 3 * .55 * 25 (or 30) = ~41 (or ~50) damage. Zombies also don't have to run to malls to search, especially when there might not be any in survivor hands for a long ways around. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 21:07, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Even by what you just said the pipe bomb is not over powered (unless you are saying the shotgun is also overpowered), the shotguns will do an average damage of 31-45 DAM like you said, the pipe bomb will do 14 DAM (over 4 targets) nine out of ten times, on the tenth time it does 35 DAM (over 6 targets), the same as the high end of the shotgun average. By your argument the shotgun is more overpowered than the pipe bomb, which leads to the inevitable question of "If an existing weapon is already more powerful, why should a specialized weapon be kicked under the pretext that it is overpowered?" And you have also neatly answered my concerns as to if this would be unfair to zombies, and as their Average Damage for the AP spent is higher than the pipe bomb it would seem that the answer is no, thank you I will definitely use that calculation in the finished proposal. -Devorac 23:46, 29 July 2009 (BST)

It's overpowered because it's an area-of-effect attack that always hits as well. Imagine three people, loaded with the things after a week's worth of stocking, attacking a mall. Not to mention the ridiculous XP gains you'd get if you managed to land a ton of killing blows at once. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 23:55, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Max XP gain if the Pipe Bomb did MAX damage and killed everyone it affected 95XP Chance of that happening= Near nil. Probable XP gain for a MAX damage grenade 35, and you would gain 14 XP for a miss (which would be 90% of the time) To answer the mall question, the resulting destruction Would be less than that of three people with shotguns that had been stocking up for a week. Here are more detailed figures, A person can carry a max of 16 Shotguns each with 2 shells loaded, that comes to 240 Maximum Damage. At a 65% Chance to hit that comes to 156 probable Damage. that's 720 MAX damage for or 468 Probable Damage if you have 3 people. You can carry a maximum of 7 Pipe bombs (Encumbrance of 12% plus you have to have a toolbox to make them) that's 245 Maximum damage, at 90% chance to do only 14 total Damage, that comes to around 104-124 probable Damage. Making 3 people able to deal 735 MAX damage, or 3 people able to deal 312-342 probable damage. Can you still say that it is overpowered? This begs the question, "okay if shotguns are more effective then use them and stop bugging us". The answer is that during a siege when using conventional weapons you are forced to target a zombie one at a time, kill one move on, kill one move on, and so forth. If you have a couple of people with grenades you can damage swaths of zombies, you wouldn't be able to kill them easily but you can damage them so that people with more focused firearms can clear more quickly. For normal use on groups of less than five zombies this weapon is utterly underpowered, it is a specialists tool for siege wars. make sense? (You have to remember that it will only effect 6 zombies total on a perfect shot, while it will effect only 4 90% of the time.) -Devorac 00:49, 30 July 2009 (BST)

So maybe it's not as overpowered as I once thought - but then you have to answer another question that plagues new weapons: if it's not better, why would people ever use it? Especially if it's very underpowered? --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 00:52, 30 July 2009 (BST)

So they can yell "Fire in the Hole" without looking like a Doofus! --Honestmistake 01:30, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Lol Honest, yeah trenchies would love this one. Bob, I already answered that in my last post. I realize that I am a little prolific with my text, but still do try to read all of it, it's a pain to repost. However I will quote and clarify for you, "it is a specialists tool for siege wars." In a siege conventional Firearms lock onto one zombie and will only damage that single zombie until the zombie has been killed or the zombie moves away, this tactic presents a number of problems. First, mid level zombie can recover from being shot dead for only 1-5 AP, this can make clearing a building/area horrifically difficult. Second, You have to have a large number of survivors working together to take down an area controlled by more than 10 zombies, and even then it is a maneuver that takes considerable co-ordination to do properly. Third, With conventional weapons it is nigh impossible to weaken an entire group of zombies at once. Pipe Bombs are special tools that are used in everyday sieges/clearing buildings, where they are part of group tactics. With a pipe bomb you can damage multiple zombies at once. (Target zombie= 3-5 random others) This is a useful tactic because you can blast the zombies till they are severely weakened, then regroup get enough conventional weapons to kill the zombie/survivor group in one swoop then throw the corpses out of the building, while zombies can get back up easily, healing is more difficult for them. This allows a 1 person to make a difference in a siege, while also letting small groups become dramatically more effective at softening up and retaking buildings. For PKers and death cultist they are of a different use entirely, drop one in a building and the occupants will have to use 4 faks to heal a minimal blast, and 7 faks to heal the perfect blast. Making them an astonishingly effective weapon at diminishing survivor defense forces. NOTICE I do NOT in the least condone Pking or griefing, but those are acceptable way to play the game, and you have to consider anything new from all possible angles. Do you understand what it's for now? *might also consider giving it heightened damage against transmitters and generators in the final proposal* And personally, I consider this proposal to have already achieved a small but important victory, I have convinced you that AOE are not by definition overpowered. *salutes* And so even If this one fails -and I will fight for its success to the end- I will have at least gotten a foot in the door for others. -Devorac 02:29, 30 July 2009 (BST)

only if you add somthing like the survivors have to shoot the pipe bomb with a flare and they only have a .00000000000001 chance of hitting it. then i might say ya, let the humans have bombs and stuff.--Agunin_Anoven 04:24, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Err, the phone's a bit odd (though I get why it's important), but with your legitimate explanation of uses, I see no major flaws in this idea; I wouldn't buff it with bodybuilding though. One thing that might need to be reconsidered is the selective targeting aspect though; I'm not sure whether it might go over better if you made it so that a grenade can hit zombies or survivors regardless of who it's targeted at... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 04:38, 30 July 2009 (BST)

@Agunin, There is already a detonator attached to the bomb, no need to shoot it with the flare. (Also please try to keep the input meaningful, sarcasm is rarely constructive) LeLouch, The reason I have it so that you throw it at one group or the other is because if this was real, the survivors would probably not be getting cozy with the zombie,. You should have survivors on one side and shambling rotting horde on the other. Although it might be a good addition if it could accidentally damage a survivor who was trapped in an entangling grasp with a zombie, that would make sense after all. I would as much as possible like the final Suggestion to be as believable as possible, so that it isn't jarring. (I.E there is an old idea for making a pipe bomb out of a length of pipe and a pistol clip, I mean really how in blue blazes are you supposed to set it off?) Thanks for both the idea, and the first positive view on the suggestion so far, kudos to you! -Devorac 08:04, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Ok NO BOMBS. PERIOD. you guys have guns and guns and flares and tools and all kinds of shit to survive. Why the fuck do you need bombs. no fucking bombs. there are you fucking happy? Is this more constructive? --Agunin_Anoven 09:23, 30 July 2009 (BST)

To make this truly fair it would have to have a chance to hurt both sides regardless of intent. I would suggest weighing it 3:1 in favour of the target side. That is count each zombie as 3 potential targets and each survivor as 1 then randomly select your actual targets from that list. --Honestmistake 11:14, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Or randomly select targets from a list of all in the building with a 3:1 bias towards the targeted side, if that isn't what you were already suggesting. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:04, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Exactly what I was suggesting (the original target should still not be random though.) --Honestmistake 17:55, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Alright that makes perfect sense, shrapnel is rarely predictable and a 3 to 1 ration will keep down groups of people from spamming these. It shouldn't effect you though, after all you know where you threw it and you should be able to duck and cover. I will certainly incorporate that in the final version. @Agunin, No that is not really much more constructive. Since you decided to go into what survivors have, let's go into what zombies have, vampiric life regeneration, the most efficient damage to total AP spent with claws, the ability to restore all health for 1-6 AP if you die, an infectious bite, the ability to sense whoever just hit you, the ability to call out to all zombies around you, the ability to drag people out onto streets, the ability to ruin buildings, and you never ever have to reload. Have I missed anything? Also, I wrote this, I am trying to be as civil as possible, the least you can do is stop swearing like a one-eyed carpenter. -Devorac 00:01, 31 July 2009 (BST)

You forgot to mention that zombies have far more fun that survivors when both are maxed.... Survivors are easier to level but have piss all to do once therer, zombies just find they have become more efficient at playing their role. its why maxed zombies rarely kil other zombies and most PKers are maxed survivors! --Honestmistake 00:15, 31 July 2009 (BST)

I did at that, thank you for bringing that to light Honest. That is precisely why I keep a maxed rotter zombie, it gets almost frustrating when you run around and work to repair what the Zombies break, but never get to actually kill anybody for a while, so I go on a brutal killing spree with my zombie from time to time. The pipe bomb adds fun, flavor, and a new dynamic to siege fighting. While it really can't help survivors with their workload it sure makes the coffee break from cading, setting up gennies, transmitters and whatnot a bit more fun. That and it lets the small groups at least put a mark on bigger hordes, and anything that gives a weapon to the underdogs I like. -Devorac 00:27, 31 July 2009 (BST)

The only thing I don't like (and apparently many others) in this is the 100% chance of success. Keep in mind that these things were haphazardly thrown together and have been through who-knows-what before use, so a chance of failure is in order.--Uberursa 01:08, 31 July 2009 (BST)

*Shrugs* perhaps, but that mechanic is absent in a lot of places as well. For instance, guns use ammunition that is 3 years old and has been through absolute hell, -same for the guns themselves really- yet a shotgun will never misfire or jam. However I see your point, If there is a 10% chance of a perfect blast, than there should be an equal and opposite 10% chance of it being a dud and not doing anything whatsoever. (the cellphone battery was dead, the powder was wet, Etc) Does that satisfy your concerns? Also thank you for having real, relevant input. -Devorac 01:23, 31 July 2009 (BST)

I don't have a problem with AOE weapons. I think that's a potential weapon for that game the COULD work. GETTING one to work is different, but there is this in Peer Review. The main problem is they do too much damage (generally). Even this suggestion does. I mean, a miss is a miss. Either you hit and do damage OR you miss. I think for an AOE weapon the best that could be done would be 3 damage max to a max of 5 targets. No more than that.--Pesatyel 03:33, 31 July 2009 (BST)

Please read several of the above posts, they show that shotguns actually have far more destructive potential for killing individuals than the pipe bomb does. The reason I made this weapon do damage on a miss is the old saying "close only counts in grenades and horseshoes", this is quite true. This is in effect a small fragmentation grenade, if thrown in close quarters of a building or city block at a horde of zombies -or a group of survivors- it is almost impossible for it to not do damage to the group you threw it at, unless it fails to detonate (see above. The thought is that if you "miss" then the bomb has hit the ground, or the zombie and has under gone a late detonation and has rolled away a bit, damaging only a few targets. On a perfect blast the grenade explodes while in the air next to the target, dealing more damage to more targets. I would like to hear why you think this weapon is overpowered however as I have done considerable research on weapons (both zombie and human) to make sure that it is not overpowered. -Devorac 04:48, 31 July 2009 (BST)

It isn't strictly about "kiling individuals". Urban Dead is very simplistic. This could be ocnsidered a "ranged" weapon, so you have to compare it to other ranged weapons. The Pistol does medum damage and has medium ammo. The shotgun does high damage and low ammo. The flaregun is a special case given how difficult it is to use. So what does that leave? Low damage high ammo? Not relevant here. First of all, there are NO weapons that "hit on a miss" that's part of the simplicity of Urban Dead. That alone makes this overpowered. Collecting crap to "make" one does not successfully counter the fact you are essentially GUARANTEED 112 XP using only 7 AP in combat. That's 16 XP per AP.--Pesatyel 03:30, 1 August 2009 (BST) Oh, also, while realism is, IMO, a necessary component of every suggestion, sometimes you have to forgo realism for balance (otherwise you would be able to use BOTH barrels at the same time, for example).--Pesatyel 03:33, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Have you modified this during the discussion process? I seem to remember first reading this and thinking there was more to it. Regardless, in its current state it is still Spam worthy. --ϑϑℜ 15:12, 31 July 2009 (BST)

No it is currently in its un-modified state, however a great deal of the finer points of the idea (the ones that will keep it from being Spam) have come out in the discussion posts. once I think it is ready I'll post Pipe Bombs Version 2. That way I can incorporate the new ideas and adjust my thinking accordingly, as well as re-writing the initial proposal to include comparative damage calculations so that I can help stop the knee jerk "AOEs are overpowered" reflex with hard evidence. If you have anything you want to add or change, let me know and I'll see to how people react to it in the next revision. out of curiosity what kind of "more" did you think there was? -Devorac 18:48, 31 July 2009 (BST)

I think Valve beat you to the idea. --YYYEEEAAH7

Really? Can you give me a link to that one? -Devorac 23:37, 31 July 2009 (BST)

He's talking about Left4Dead, which happens to not be a trans-state browser-based MMORPG. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 23:40, 31 July 2009 (BST)

Ah, thank you lelouch, you have saved me from the momentary panic of thinking that there was a suggestion like this that I had missed. I have never played left4dead, hence my ignorance. Once again Kudos to you Le Louche. -Devorac 00:14, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Happy to help; I've also got something planned in the event that people continue to once-off your idea without reading all the support first. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 02:40, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Me likes this idea..... More variety --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 00:26, 1 August 2009 (BST)

@pesatyel My apologies for not replying sooner but I totally missed your earlier post about the XP problem. You said that going around finding "crap" does not justify it, but actually it does. Think of it like this, you can carry 7 tops at one time. You will earn an average of 98 XP (not 114 your calculations are off). Yeah that sounds a bit much for 7 AP, but consider the pistol. You can hold 25 Pistols in your inventory at one time, with 6 rounds in each (optimally), so 25*6*5= 750XP max or 487.5 average XP (not counting rotting flesh/flak jacket/ but also not counting bonus kill XP so it evens out). Now that is of course over a great deal more AP than the pipe bomb. However once you have used your 7 pipe bombs odds are that the targeted opponent won't even be dead, and you will be standing there with nothing in your inventory but a toolkit and a foolish expression. The additional 20-30 AP to find ingredients to make the item account for the XP. I mean really, with my shotguns (yes I fight in true trenchie style, even though I am not myself a trenchie.) I can often earn as much or more than 84-119 with 21-31 AP. and that is the cost to make one pipe bomb! Do you understand now? Also I will be working on a zombie weapon with some common characteristics (no, it's not exploding zombies or anything like that) that way the zombaes won't be left out. ;) -Devorac 05:49, 1 August 2009 (BST) PS. @ Le Louche, err... I really hate to sound like an idiot, but I have to ask this. You sent me a message, do I reply to it on my discussion page or your own?

It varies all over the wiki; usually you can do either, as the other party will normally watch your talk page whenever they post on it. Also, I agree that the EXP does seem a bit high, and might earn this idea a few kill votes. Perhaps only giving the user exp for the target he throws the bomb at? I'm not entirely sure. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:40, 1 August 2009 (BST)

I think that would make the XP reward far too low though, although if you doubled the normal XP you would get for that damage that could work. 10XP for a standard miss 20XP for a perfect hit, and of course 0XP for a critical miss. What you are saying makes perfect sense though, you don't get combat experience by watching a zombie get hit in the leg with shrapnel. -Devorac 18:38, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Unfortunately, the author continues to miss my point. NO HITS ON MISSES. It is irrelevant how many more weapons pistols or shotguns you can carry. Want an example:

• Pistol: I've got my 25 pistols. I attack 50 times. I miss 50 times. Net result no AP left, no XP gained.
• Shotgun: I've got my 17 shotguns. I attack 34 times. 1 miss 34 times. Net result, 16 AP left, no XP gained.
• Pipe Bomb: I've got my 7 bombs, I attack 7 times. 1 miss 7 times. Net result 43 AP left, 112 XP gained.

It has NOTHING to do with "potential maximums". Its about guaranteed minimums.--Pesatyel 19:24, 1 August 2009 (BST)

The EXP thing may very well be nerfed way down, and you're forgetting the critical miss situation that results in a dud. Perhaps it would be better if a critical miss also damaged the user for 5-10 HP or something, due to some sort of early explosion? On the other hand, that might be nerfing things too much. If that is the case, however, the result would be 7 attacks, 7 misses, 0 EXP, and death; too weak? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:13, 1 August 2009 (BST)

I don't know if this has been stated yet, but this is not Left 4 Dead. It's Urban Dead. /suggestion -- T^HEL^ORDG^UNS^LINGER 20:22, 1 August 2009 (BST)

@Blackreaper, I have never played left 4 dead, I have no idea what you are talking about, but I am quite curious. @Pesatyel, You say I have missed your point, and yet you continue to botch your figures in a spectacular fashion, all the while ignoring what I have moved in to compensate. Le Louche gave the proper figures, 7 AP lost No damage, No XP. I would like to also point out that even If I had not already had the critical miss percent and I had not compensated for the XP problem, your statistics would still be wrong, if all the pipe bombs hit you would get 98XP not 112XP. You also failed to read the post above your own which lowered the total XP for a standard hit to 10 so even if I did not have critical misses the XP for every pipebomb hitting would be 70XP. However due to the fact that this seems to be causing you some distress I will step the compensation up a notch. In addition to the 10% dud chance I will add a 5% early detonation chance, which will deal 10 Damage to the user. that gives it a 85% chance to hit, with 10% chance of doing nothing, and a 5% chance of having your wife open your ketchup bottles the rest of your life. Please, before you say that I don't understand you make sure I haven't already compensated and moved on, and always check your figures. Also what I find interesting is that I added the critical miss chance before you made a post on my suggestion, this can only lead to the conclusion that you either didn't bother to read everything in which case it is your own fault, or you knowingly botched your "guaranteed minimums" chart which deserves a drama llama.

	Drama Llama
	The Llama is watching you.

-Devorac 20:40, 1 August 2009 (BST)

ENOUGH TROLLING This idea or suggestion is not based around a fundamentally flawed concept or worldview, and as such actually has a chance of becoming productive; stop bitching at it and start making neat little lists of its pros, cons, and potential additions.

7 bombs max, 75% to hit, 10% to ultra-hit, 10% to miss and 5% to backfire, with a 1/3 chance of each extra person being targeted being on your side. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:55, 1 August 2009 (BST) Thank you Le Louche, and it also costs more than 20AP to find the components and make. Pesatyel, I'm sorry I got carried away, there was a more diplomatic way to say what I said, but the point still stands. Please know that I will consider your -and everyone's - posts as well as I can, and if there is something that I actually do not understand I will question you about it. -Devorac 21:08, 1 August 2009 (BST) Dude if your going to alter your suggestion, ALTER THE DAMN SUGGESTION. What the fuck is a critical miss? I don't see that in the suggestion. Would you like me to cut and past your OWN suggestion above to make my point? Show me where IN THE SUGGESTION I "botch your figures in a spectacular fashion". The point of the discussion is that if a person points of something that would improve the suggestion, then you change the suggestion to reflect it. I'm not going to read Lelouch's idea and guess whether you like it or not. I'll have to assume you didn't since it didn't make its way into the main suggestion.--Pesatyel 21:25, 1 August 2009 (BST) And I might add that, yes, my numbers were wrong as it should be 119 XP. 1st zombie takes 35 (5+5+5+5+5+5+5), second 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3), third 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3), fourth 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3), fifth 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3).--Pesatyel 21:29, 1 August 2009 (BST) Wow, okay. First off I have said in my posts that half the idea is in the posts themselves, to prevent confusion I will be slowly remaking the idea and when the update is complete I will back it up, delete this one and post the updated version. Surprisingly enough you have to put forth an effort to understand this idea and that effort includes reading other peoples posts, also I withdraw my apology, you deserved every bit of that. If you had read the posts you would know what a critical miss is, also you apparently can't even properly read the unmodified suggestion, under the original terms the minimum damage is 14 per pipe bomb. 5 to the main target and 3 damage to 3 others, let me do the math for you, 14*7=98. If you had bothered to read the original suggestion thoroughly you would have seen -and I quote- " . on a "Miss" it will deal 5 damage to the target zombie (or survivor) and deal 3 damage to 3 other zombies (or survivors). ". Everything I have incorporated I have agreed to in my posts EVERYTHING so if you had read first we wouldn't have to be doing this. Pesatyel, here it is plain and simple, Either you actually put forth the effort and read the earlier post so you can make an intelligent comment, or you can get off the discussion. Take a good look at every thing I have posted on this discussion, an you will find that everything I have had to repeat now has already been said. Either you can swallow your pride and we can work together, or you can't in which case you can leave. If you chose that you actually want to help, great, read all of the above posts then come back with something. The reason I don't change the suggestion until I am ready to delete it and create a new one is simple, so I can create an entirely new discussion of the modified Idea, this will also ease the load on this wiki page. I'm not going to do it by halves to make you happy, if you can't keep up with the conversation, your problem. PS. I asked agunin and now I ask you, keep that mouth off the discussion.-Devorac 22:05, 1 August 2009 (BST) I said what I said because I did not appreciate the smarmy "better than you" attitude you put forth. If you do not wish to update your suggestion fine. I was pointing out the point is to put forth the idea IN the suggestion to make it clearer on those reading it. We shouldn't HAVE to read through all the discussion to figure out what you may or may not decide to include. That's how it normally works. You put forth an idea, someone makes a comment to alter it, you alter the main idea to reflect the comment. I should not be offended by you if you do not wish to do it that way. The point is to get your idea across as clear and conscise as you can and THIS isn't doing it. I look foward to seeing what you make of "version 2" and, I suggest you go ahead and do it since there doesn't seem to be much left to discuss this time around.--Pesatyel 22:26, 1 August 2009 (BST) Also, and no offense intended (and I do apologize for above) you might want to cut down on the unessential rhetoric.--Pesatyel 22:27, 1 August 2009 (BST) Wow. The hypocrisy is...staggering.-- | T | BALLS! | 22:45 1 August 2009(BST) Uh huh, whatever you say.--Pesatyel 23:14, 1 August 2009 (BST) The better than you attitude is probably because I knew you were wrong, and I had already (before you posted) compensated, I was rather frustrated with you. Now ask yourself, why does that attitude bother you? I intended to update to Mk 2 earlier but we hit a good spot of ideas and I needed time to see how they would play out. The Mk 2 Should be ready for comments the day after tomorrow, and it will be a lot longer and will include the calculation that were so useful in the dissuasion of overpower arguments, nothing like cold facts to dissuade people. What rhetoric was I using out of curiosity? The "put forth an effort to actually see whats happening or leave" I didn't realize I had repeated until just now, and even that doesn't fall under the category of rhetoric. "The point is to get your idea across as clear and conscise as you can and THIS isn't doing it." If I was going to propose the idea for votes, yes. However in this instance you are wrong,the current purpose is to gather as much information as possible, so it can be refined put out, taken back, re-refined then actually posted. In the last steps I will be going for clarity as much as anything else, but not until then, for now this is to gather opinions, ideas, facts, flaws, pros, cons, etc, etc. And I'm sure someone will come up with something I haven't though of, and I'll add that in with everything else. Btw, here is the link to where I am assembling the Mk 2 version, Mk2 Pipe bomb And please for the love of God do not post a comment on it till I take it this page. -Devorac 23:32, 1 August 2009 (BST) I wasn't wrong. Neither were you. We just had a miscommunication stemming from how things usually work on the page and how you chose to do things. No big deal once you explained how you were doing it. The rhetoric to which refer is, of course my own view, but you don't need to be "flowery" in your suggestion (talking about wanting to grab a bite or maybe being thirsty, implying the long read, for example). Basically speaking, I am suggesting you just get down to the nitty-gritty of the idea.--Pesatyel 23:49, 1 August 2009 (BST) Ah... So you are saying that nothing you said above was wrong? I'm just teasing, yes you were wrong on some points (mostly your calculations) but I was wrong to respond with as much heat as I did, so we are both wrong. I am a prolific writer, mainly because I am a writer and it is at times difficult to get through a post without some kind of addition but I realize it makes for long reading so I will try to cut down. -Devorac 06:04, 2 August 2009 (BST)