Talk:Malton Uprising

(Archive of Old Discussions)

Sorry

As much as we don't like Multi-Alt policies, PK'ing is a big No-no for us, the SMW. If DEM we're a PK'er group, things might be different, but we're gonna have to decline your offer. Apocalyptic doom 21:07, 10 October 2008 (BST)

No problem. Just to clarify matters, if there was any confusion...not every group involved in the MU PKs the DEM. But as things currently stand, their involvement is something of a tacit approval (or at least a non-condemnation) of the other groups that have decided to go that far. So I can understand not wanting to be involved even on that level. And best of luck to the SMW, in either case. (Though...are there even any zambahz in the area to protect people from? ;)) --Jen 01:57, 11 October 2008 (BST)

MU alt policy... so, uh, where is it, exactly? LOL

do you people have a strict one alt policy for MU members? because there are a large number of groups under this umbrella, and if a player had an alt in more than just one... well... that'd make you... uuuuuh... just like the DEM!

i mean, not that i really give a damn, you're insignificant and irrelevant, anyhow, but... i was just, like, wondering and such about your alt policy, y'know? --WanYao 21:11, 27 September 2008 (BST)

Naw, lol. We're not an umbrella group...we're pretty much an "event." About the closest thing we could be compared to is something like the Big Bash, or some sort of PKer extravaganza. And we stick with the same rules as things like that...one alt involved per person. My babah Philosophe Knight is going to stick with handing out FAKs in centers of learning, for instance, until any Uprising/DEM craziness is done. --Jen 21:25, 27 September 2008 (BST)

So the two alts will be accepted, as long as both aren't fighting DEM members, so they aren't working together. Wow, that sounds a lot like the DEM. Good to know you both aren't breaking the rules! LemonHead7t7 *̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡|͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|]]| ̡̡̡ ̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡*̡͌l̡* ^{Talk/PDA/Red Rum/MOB} 05:06, 28 September 2008 (BST)

The Big Bash was, in effect, a group. Which operated in one area at a time, not several simultaneously. And you could have only one alt involved in it. The comparison is totally inaccurate. And, when PKer "events" take place in one location or area, if a one alt per player policy is not followed, that's multi-abuse. Period. This "event" as you call it involves a large number of groups acting across several surbubs. And, these groups are all fighting the exact same enemy. Which would make their stance on multi-abuse a lot less stringent than that of the DEM, technically... But, if it's as Lemonhead explained... then... yeah... it's pretty much the same as the DEM. Fascinating. --WanYao 05:15, 28 September 2008 (BST)

Hmm... First she praises our ability to keep our members off the Ronin Gallery, then she parties with us in Stanbury Village, and now she's following alt policies nearly identical to ours... I predict a DEM alt in your future, Jen. :) --William Told 10:28, 28 September 2008 (BST)

Three simple letters, Jen: MFU. DO EET!! :P -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 14:56, 28 September 2008 (BST)

If you're going to Recruitment Spam, do it on brainstock. And the entire post seems to be on of those "I don't like those people; they must be zerging" allegations.--Janine 00:29, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Naw, they can try to recruit me here. I don't mind. But...MFU? Blech. No thank you! MCDU or Axes High, maybe...but not the MFU. Or any other part of the DEM core.

And, naw, it's a bit more serious than "I don't like these people; they're zerging" stuff. They're accusing us of hypocrisy, which IS a big deal. I think they're dead wrong, but they've every right to bring it up. --Jen 00:56, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Because apparently it wasn't clear enough the first time:

• This is a temporary thing. We're calling it an "event"/"petition"/"uprising"/"coalition," not a "group"/"alliance," for a reason. In a month or two or three, it's going to be disbanded, and everyone can get back to their normal lives, which tends to involve killing one another. The DEM is a permanent alliance. I'd say that's a rather notable difference.

• We wouldn't have a problem with the DEM alt policy if is its members groups actually acted like groups in an alliance, not like sub-groups. If you want to read and join the debates going on about this, get the password to a certain forum on Brainstock. I'm not going to argue this point here, except to say, we DO think we've got a point here.

• You can only have one alt involved in this. Just like you could have only one alt involved in the Big Bash. Or in a PKer event. Which are the closest parallels I can come up with to this. They may not be perfect comparisons, but they're closer parallels than comparing us to the DEM. Just because the RRF and the MOB were both participating in the big bash didn't mean that you had to officially leave the RRF so that your MOB character could do stuff. It's the same here. I don't see where you're getting the idea that a person can have more than one alt involved, Lemon and Wan, after I specifically said otherwise.

If the one-alt per player policy is not followed, that's multi-abuse, period, and we hammer whoever is doing it over the head. If there's other characters contributing information to the same cause, that's multi-abuse, and we hammer whoever's doing that over the head. I'm sitting out anything DEM-related with my other characters for the duration of the Uprising. Other folks, who could potentially have more than one character involved, either directly (killing) or indirectly (scouting, etc.), are doing exactly the same thing.

• There's a large number of groups, acting across several suburbs, because many of our groups are localized survivor groups. Who aren't just going to up and drop their survivor activities to shoot DEM. And perhaps more importantly...we're spread out because the DEM, who we're attacking, is spread out all across the map. Our spread-out-ness is a direct result of the spread-out-ness of the DEM. If the DEM was in one place, most of us would be in one place. If we wanted to, we could move all our mobile groups into one suburb. Unfortunately, we'd run out of people to shoot pretty darn quickly. --Jen 00:59, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Seconding the above, there were some who posted on the Uprising forum before we got started asking about that and those who had alts in more than one group participating idled out said alts or are putting them to work in something that has NOTHING to do with the Uprising. For those who have multiple alts the ONLY information they are giving us is what that alt in the Uprising-affiliated group is collecting, any information another alt may pick up is ignored no matter how useful it may have been. -- Garviel Loken^{No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear! Talk}02:29, 29 September 2008 (BST)

I agree that this does not constitute alt-abuse in any way. :) --William Told 02:45, 29 September 2008 (BST)

In addition, there's another difference with regards to how the MU and the DEM formed. For someone with an alt in more than one MU group, they were in those groups already when they joined the Uprising, and have now taken steps to ensure they aren't committing alt abuse. The fact that two groups they joined happened to come together for one cause and will then go off again shouldn't force a person to leave a group if they can be in both without both contributing to the Uprising. Now, for those with multiple alts in the DEM, unless every single one of those people had all their alts in the respective groups prior to the DEM coalescing, they've joined the same group knowingly with multiple characters. And even if all of them did meet that criteria, there's still the fact that their policy allows newer people to do the same, as well as those alts who are in the DEM now being contributing, however indirectly, to the same cause. Rather different circumstances. I don't see any way you can call the MU's policy here to be alt abuse unless you're just trying to kick shit up, frankly.--Panthera 02:47, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Comparing the alt-policies of the MU and the DEM is an absolute joke. As has been mentioned, the Malton Uprising is not a group. If any such as Wan do not agree with the term event you could call it a coalition, or maybe, maybe an alliance (although that would actually severely overstate the level of cooperation). To say that groups can't collaborate at all is ridiculous, to say we are organized like the DEM is ignorant, and to say that the MU allows individuals to contribute multiple alts is slander. If someone happened to have had an alts in more than one of the groups that joined the MU (which is very uncommon) they can not use both to contribute to it. Period. If you know of somebody breaking that rule (and I know you don't because you would have cited it) I want to know who they are so they can be thrown out and stuck on my personal KOS list. If you don't, go try to start up trouble somewhere else.--Allan Friedman 03:18, 29 September 2008 (BST)

The wiki is not the place for intelligent discussion on this topic.--William Told 06:42, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Brainstock certainly isn't, so what do you suggest? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 15:12, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Well, the private discussion that's on the DEM's Public Communication forum on Brainstock is locked to everyone who isn't willing to speak reasonably, including DEM members who haven't been granted access. You just have to PM an admin if you want access, which will be revoked if you prove to be unwilling to debate civilly. Aside from that, I don't know. Perhaps the Philosophe Knights should host a discussion. Given your reputation for enlightenment and your participation in the Uprising, who would be better? --William Told 17:59, 29 September 2008 (BST)

"DEM's Public Communication forum on Brainstock is locked to everyone who isn't willing to speak reasonably, .... if you want access, which will be revoked if you prove to be unwilling to debate civilly."

"This court will come to order and I shall hold in contempt anyone who says something the defendant doesn't like!"

-- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 15:46, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Seriously even if you hate the DEM most folks realize that the MU has some real mouth breathers among its membership. If you can't come to some sort of understanding about why we won't just allow any old member to come to our forums and flame away then perhaps you're one of them.--Kristi of the Dead 04:00, 3 October 2008 (BST)

The problem is that you are the ones who gets to decide without any further recourse, it's a court where the prisoner can have anything stricken from the record if he chooses.

That and your response is a passive aggressive accusation, "If you don't see why they get banned, THEN YOU'RE ONE OF THEM!", paranoid much? It's this pointlessness which means I'll never post on Brainstock, I've seen enough of your activities on linked threads to have my fill. There will never be anything but a DEM friendly debate take place on that board. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 13:13, 3 October 2008 (BST)

yeah clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. --Kristi of the Dead 11:23, 4 October 2008 (BST)

It's their board, and as far as I'm concerned, they do whatever they like in their own "home". That being said, there's a reason I categorically refuse to participate in Brainstock anymore, outside of RG reporting. And the problems are on "both sides of the fence"... you know, like, no one faction has a monopoly on what Kristi so eloquently called "mouth-breathing"... Meh... --WanYao 21:03, 3 October 2008 (BST)

I never said the other side had a monopoly on the mouth breathing. I was explaining why so many of Iscariot's friends get banned from the most popular forum in the game.--Kristi of the Dead 11:23, 4 October 2008 (BST)

What started off as ironic satire (though, like all real satire, it had a serious point)... has turned to high burlesque... --WanYao 05:43, 30 September 2008 (BST)

I tried to responding to it with a light touch at first. Because the serious point in the mix deserved some response, but the ludicrous comparison deserved a LOL. And if people hadn't utterly missed the point, and proceeded to call us hypocrites, I wouldn't have then written a bloody treatise. --Jen 23:14, 30 September 2008 (BST)

@Iscariot - They really just revoke access if you troll or flame. --William Told 03:15, 1 October 2008 (BST)

Have them define 'troll or flame' completely before I consider making an account there. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 13:13, 3 October 2008 (BST)

Ask DT. He's posted in that topic. --William Told 20:42, 3 October 2008 (BST)

http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Malton_Uprising&oldid=1266257

"Note that no one is to use only and no more than 1 character in the fight."

This seems to have been lost in Doudomida's vandalism on the article page.

http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Malton_Uprising&action=history

--Secruss^|Yak|Brahnz!|CGR|PKA||EMLN|Templates|RRF|RFTM|Crap|WHOZ||MU|GN|C2008||19:08, 12 October 2008 (BST)

I have a question for the leader of the Uprising

Would you please be able to contact me via email, my email is on my user page. located [1]. I would like to ask a favor of you. --Eric bessette 22:07, 5 October 2008 (BST)

We have a leader? And our goal is explicitly to fight the DEM. There are no side quests.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/The_Malton_Uprising/index.php?act=idx --Secruss^|Yak|Brahnz!|CGR|PKA||EMLN|Templates|RRF|RFTM|Crap|WHOZ||MU|GN|C2008||19:10, 12 October 2008 (BST)

Template

yo... i dunno what the f... is wrong wtih this thing, but uh, it ain't working right. check the bottom of the page --Jack ^{S13 T! PC} 16:19, 29 September 2008 (BST)

Lessee...is it working now? --Jen 23:18, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Support from the Wild Cardz

So, is there any special channel one would have to go through to support the Uprising, or do we just start killing off DEM members? (because I do that...) --Damios 02:20, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Well...there's the sekrit Uprising forum, where there's some basic coordination going on. But that's mainly for leaders of groups to coordinate, there's a bit of a backlog of accounts, some groups don't even have a representative there, and I don't have the power to validate anyone even if I wanted to.

So...at this point, your best bet would be to just add yourself to the list of groups officially involved, and start killing DEM members in the name of the Uprising. If you want to get involved further, I'll see what I can do. --Jen 23:00, 30 September 2008 (BST)

: Excellent. I'll talk to the rest of the group and see how they feel about actively hunting these fellows down. --Damios 23:26, 30 September 2008 (BST)

Bad representation

When I read the actual article, I thought 'this is a well thought-out, reasonable, intellectual idea'. The discussion page coincidently makes it look otherwise - Zig13 - 30/09/2008 at 16:03(BST)

This is the UD wiki. What did you expect to find on the talk page? ;) --Jen 22:53, 30 September 2008 (BST)

The people most involved with the event on the front page.--Kristi of the Dead 04:01, 3 October 2008 (BST)

Are you really a guy? --ScouterTX 01:18, 11 October 2008 (BST)

"The people most involved with the even on the front page." What...like me? Who stops by here to give serious answers to the few and far between serious questions people post? Or like Panthera, and Allen from the FOD, up there?

I don't censor what people post here, 'cause this ain't my page to censor, however much I'd like to. If people want to be idiots (like a certain person directly above me is being, or like Secruss has been, no offense to him (well...actually some, as I disagreed with the whole smokescreen strategy from the get-go), they can be idiots. Any halfway serious discussion has always happened elsewhere, not here. Honestly, though...if it's currently causing more problems than it's worth, I'll see about getting permission from the Uprising proper to separate this into "halfway serious discussion - no trolling plz, or your posts will be DELETED!!!!!" and "flamebait" sections. :P --Jen 01:48, 11 October 2008 (BST)

Fair enough. BTW. Ya see what scouter up there just asked me? You remember when I mentioned the sort of lieing that MU members were doing about me specifically? I wonder where Scouter got the idea I was a guy.--Kristi of the Dead 07:58, 11 October 2008 (BST)

From met. --ScouterTX 16:53, 11 October 2008 (BST)

Actually Kristi, that could of been from my little April fools joke :D --Kooks 16:56, 11 October 2008 (BST)

I thought the "Kristi is a dude" was a well known and overused DEM joke, just like Red Rum/DEM puppet jokes. If you're going to use that as basis that we're a bunch of lairs, then you're rather petty. Also, for the record, you spelled lying wrong. xD --Kikashie ^{Read the Dispatch!} 19:56, 11 October 2008 (BST)

You meant to say a bunch of liars, right? :D -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 20:03, 11 October 2008 (BST)

I wonder where Scouter got the idea I was a guy. From me and Kikashie. Met Fan 20:06, 11 October 2008 (BST)

So just as I thought a bunch douche bags are lying about me. Good thing I know where to find them all since you've been good enough to stay on the MU forums.--Kristi of the Dead 21:16, 13 October 2008 (BST)

Can I say tranny on the UD wiki without being b7'd? Because I just did.--N00bert ^foxhound 20:20, 11 October 2008 (BST)

Oh noobert you can say anything you want on the wiki. I can say go fuck yourself and you can go hang out with that "group" of yours fuckshound all day and think up all sorts of funny stuff to talk about. Nobody will care but still feel free--Kristi of the Dead 21:13, 13 October 2008 (BST)

Touche. :O --Kikashie ^{Read the Dispatch!} 20:31, 11 October 2008 (BST)

The fact that you're a bunch of pussy liars has nothing to do with anything. Just pointing it out is all. The fact that you sucked that information out of secrusses dick does.--Kristi of the Dead 21:10, 13 October 2008 (BST)

When the majority of comments from NON-uprising folks have tended to involve exquisite, thoughtful, argumentative eloquence like this, I really don't think you can blame us for not taking this page seriously, and just giving up and letting the trolls have their way with it. I also thought the "Kristi is a guy" thing was a pretty common rumor-joke, up there with DEM pancakes, but whatever.

But, hey. If you're going to tell us what we're saying on our own boards, I thought I might as well take a gander. So here's the opinions I found posted on the Uprising boards about Kristi, collected from assorted scattered threads:

• Kristi's a he. (Other people: no, she's a she)
• Kristi's bi-polar (Other people: I wouldn't doubt it)
• Kristi's a bitch.
• Kristi's a sucky diplomat. (Other people: Here, here!)
• Sometimes she's pretty cool, doesn't take herself too seriously, types well...but other times she utterly flips out and tyeps liek this.
• Kristi is a very stubborn individual. (Other people: to put it mildly)
• Kristi picked the wrong fight when she started attacking the Knights.
• Kristi seems to actually want reform in the DEM. (other people: dude, we didn't see any changes for six months)
• Kristi's stonewalling changes because she doesn't want to see Alphy and Secruss get ANY credit for any reform in the DEM ever in ANY even tangential way.
• Kristi thinks that because a group became big, they are better qualified to judge the way people play the game. (Unless they're zombies).
• Telling Kristi to change her operations is like telling God to change the shape of Asia because he made most of it too far from the Ocean.
• Kristi seems to have forgotten that people were complaining about various DEM policies long before the Uprising. (Or the GN, for that matter).
• "A Lost Cause; Irrepairable; Unenlightenable"
• "I bet I'd be banned from Brainstock if I asked Kristi to cook my dinner." (In response to this broadcast by Gerald Thompson (MFD): "We keep the Zombie population in check. We cook your meals we haul your trash we connect your calls. We drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep.")

Secruss posted none of the above in any of those threads. And Scouter isn't even a member of the Uprising forums, far as I know. --Jen 00:21, 14 October 2008 (BST)

Simply put I don't really believe anything any of you have to say on any subject. And just to make a point Kikiashie has a membership on the MU forums right? Didn't mr scouter just say it was Kikashie and met that told him? But I'm sure you'll have some excuse on how the uprising isn't in fact full of shitheels and you're all just having alot of fun. And I know you're making shit up Jen or perhaps you couldn't find anything else but you lot have members that have said worse than what you posted above to me on brainstock so seriously drop the we're not assholes line cause most people know it's not true. And the reason you get responses like this is the people you've allowed in your uprising.--Kristi of the Dead 00:37, 14 October 2008 (BST)

*shrug* There's assholes involved in this, and there's non-assholes involved in it. There's people with diplomatic skillz, and people who couldn't diplomat the broad side of barn.

As far as I know, Kikashie may said you were a guy in the same way that I go around saying Red Rum is a DEM pancake. I don't have the PMs, I don't know the context. Brainstock everyone can look at. Heck, I'll go look through threads there next (but good lord, there's a lot of them). If I remember correctly, though, you accused us, the other day, of saying horrible nasty stuff about you on our forums behind your back...so I went and looked. The "search" function doesn't work, and google wasn't cacheing old uprising pages today, so I had to do it manually. Maybe I missed the most egregious threads (though did think I covered all the bases, and I think the bitch and bipolar comments are pretty darn nasty). If you have google caches or something of other comments, I'd like to see them. If you want the NASTY comments, they're the ones about Sonny. Or about the DEM as a whole. But those don't go unchallenged, any more than the "Kristi is a guy" went unchallenged.

And...because someone is an asshole, that gives you every right to troll them, and everyone and everything they're ever associated with? --Jen 01:03, 14 October 2008 (BST)

Edit: More threads.

• Kristi isn't good at keeping alt information separate. (I think that could count as a nasty thing).
• When it comes to not changing anything until the Uprising disbands, Krisit is "not going to be talked down from that position. We could try for a hundred years, kow-tow to her and spit-shine her shoes, but unless the Uprising disbands, she'll listen to nothing we say." (Which...err...I think is something you'd agree with, no?)
• If the Uprising disbands, Kristi will invalidate each individual group's opinions on the grounds that they're 'not big enough' to be trusted.
• Kristi has stated and shown time and time again that she only trusts the opinions of groups which rival the DEM in size. --Jen 01:11, 14 October 2008 (BST)

I suppose the key thing here is that I didn't just say the MU forums. I said MU members it could happen on the MU forums or not. None the less it does happen and it's said not in the DEM pancake way you're trying to say it is but as an insult to me personally. You know this to be true, I know it to be true, anyone that has had anything to do with alot of the groups in the uprising knows it to be true. A fact amplified by the fact that your MU membership includes some of the groups it includes and the demands you make are so disjointed as to be unusable. The simple fact is that most of you guys like to grief others. (to be honest I'm surprised you're a member of the CGR Jen because as it stands you're the most reasonable person they've got in membership that I've ever met). A fact evidenced by your actions with AH and such. And it's laughable that the lot of you would come to the DEM complaining about us being bad for the game while at the same time making the sort of drooling slack jawed comments that are so common on this talk page, combined with the awesome targeting of new players and players you yourself have said you have no problem with. In truth it's my thought that the people on this talk page and the people who have pushed the MU the most on the wiki are in fact an excellent representation of what the Uprising is all about. For you Jen that may not be the case...but the vast majority of the MU membership falls under that heading. I mean it's been a month now and the most important thing you've done (or at least the thing you've spent the most energy on) is the big list of kills by the uprising. If you're not about griefing others and bragging about it why even keep a list? I mean I notice you guys continue to add to it all the time. But the last discussion on brainstock from you guys regarding your "demands" was some time ago. And ya know what? It doesn't even have to be about me...it's the fact that you guys sit and do it at all about anyone that's lame.--Kristi of the Dead 02:08, 14 October 2008 (BST)

I really hate to say this here. But could you be a bit more civil. It might be a new concept to some of you, but things tend to get done quicker. So please tone down the rhetoric and confront each individual person/group as you make whatever claims.--Janine 02:37, 14 October 2008 (BST)

Quote: "Secruss posted none of the above in any of those threads. And Scouter isn't even a member of the Uprising forums, far as I know. --Jen 00:21, 14 October 2008 (BST)

Oh Jen, I'm quite the sneaky bastard! You don't know much, thats for sure....wanna hang out anyway? Oh yeah, and I really want to kill KristiOTD ingame before I leave this world, thats my biggest wish. --ScouterTX 22:54, 14 October 2008 (BST)

1. Gerald Thompson broadcast "Attention Malton Uprising, continue attacking DEM members" from here, on 27.50 MHz. (3 hours and 52 minutes ago)
2. Gerald Thompson broadcast "And you may find yourselves without a great majority of" from here, on 27.50 MHz. (3 hours and 51 minutes ago)
3. Gerald Thompson broadcast "survivors. We keep the Zombie population in check." from here, on 27.50 MHz. (3 hours and 51 minutes ago)
4. Gerald Thompson broadcast "We cook your meals we haul your trash we connect your calls" from here, on 27.50 MHz. (3 hours and 49 minutes ago)
5. Gerald Thompson broadcast "we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep." from here, on 27.50 MHz. (3 hours and 49 minutes ago)
6. Gerald Thompson broadcast "Do not fuck with us." from here, on 27.50 MHz. (3 hours and 49 minutes ago)
   

Will you cook me a decent meal Kristi? --Met Fan ^F

I take it none of you have anything better to do? Gaiz, 'fuckshound' was so well thought out that I died for like 5 seconds because the burn was so bad. Also, the rest is tl;dr. I'm done here, bai. Forgot to add the signature shit, lawlawlawllawl *skeet* --N00bert ^foxhound 23:55, 14 October 2008 (BST)

DORIS

DORIS is still willing to join under the condition that the Imperium is kicked out and declared a target. We have over 30 people. Imperium has 8 at best. The Imperium are also fags and eat cock, lots of cock. Oh, and if you reject our proposal and do not send this message to at least 10 other people by midnight an old lady will come out of a mirror and make you a pedophile. Be warned! --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 22:01, 13 October 2008 (BST)

Jeeze Sonny, don't you ever get tired of this stuff or is your brain just hardwired to a random *chan?--Janine 02:38, 14 October 2008 (BST)

I don't know...I've never actually thought about it. So we have a deal? --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 02:50, 14 October 2008 (BST)

And he keeps going, lulz. --Met Fan ^F

Good. Deal is set. If you go back on deal your penis will fall off...twice. So when is top secret attack on DEM and Imperium? --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 00:09, 15 October 2008 (BST)

Right after you stop beating this dead horse... --Kikashie ^{Read the Dispatch!} 02:32, 15 October 2008 (BST)