Suggestion:20070906 A Taboo Suggestion: Make Flares Deal Area of Effect Damage

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20070906 A Taboo Suggestion: Make Flares Deal Area of Effect Damage

Jon Pyre 16:45, 6 September 2007 (BST)

Suggestion type
Improvement/Skill Suggestion scope
Flare Guns Suggestion description
Flare guns as a weapon have two notable traits:

• 1) They deal a lot of damage
• 2) They're so unreliable most people would rather purposelessly shoot them into the sky than a zombie

I suggest improving the flare gun so rather than be a sort of glorified flavor weapon it becomes an uncommon but useful tool.

I suggest adding a new Basic Firearms subskill called Rocketeer. Rather than trying to hit a specific zombie with the flare you instead just aim for the ground and try to catch a few in the blast.

This would add a new human attack, in addition to the current flare attack, called Explosive Flare. This attack would have a 50% chance of success and deal 5 damage to the first 3 zombies in the attack queue (4 apiece with flack jacket).

This gives the flare gun a purpose as crowd weakener. It's no good at killing individual zombies but if you got a flare gun it's useful to sap a horde's strength so that when any of them break in somewhere the 5 or 10 hp they have missing makes it easier for some other survivor to boot them. In fact, it would even make sense for maxed out survivors to use them on zombies outside!

The flare gun's rarity, and the fact that it is ineffective for disposing of a single foe or actually killing something prevents the extra 5hp overall damage it does compared to the shotgun, prevents the flare from becoming overpowered.

While I am sure there are previous flare suggestions that involve dealing damage to multiple targets I think this is a balanced and useful approach.

• Minor Notes:

If there are fewer than three zombies present the attack just deals 5 damage to the one or two zombies. If there are more than three, no zombies other than those 3 take damage.

A killing blow made with an explosive shot does not cause a headshot since you are not aiming for anyone's head.

This does not remove the current flare attack nor the ability to shoot flares skyward.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. EXAMPLE: Billy the policeman is searching for pistols and shotguns when he comes across the pleasant 1% surprise of a flare. 'Hmm, I think I'll go out and sap the crowd's strength' he prudently chuckles to himself. --Jon Pyre 17:22, 6 September 2007 (BST)
2. keep I would want to see changes to this but the basic principle is good! Make the 1st attack at 50% and if it hits it does 5 damage to the selected target (random zombie or selected survivor!) Then if it hits it has another 50% chance to catch someone in the area for 5 damage (this should be 75% of being the same "type" as the 1st target) Again if it hits it has 50% chance to catch someone else and so on until it misses! that should give 25% for 2 hits, 12% for 3, 6% for 4 and so on down to a maximum and pretty unlikely 1% for 6! thats pretty massive damage potential but also fairly random in its targeting! Oh and yes i did mean to round all fractions down...--Honestmistake 17:35, 6 September 2007 (BST)
3. Keep - The typical problem of AoE attacks -massive damage in large crowds- has been avoided by capping the effect at 3 players. --Toejam ^{A Stats Graph} 19:18, 6 September 2007 (BST)
4. Keep - I like it how it is, but you'd probably get it received better if you knocked it down by 10% or so. --Howard Bentley 21:20, 6 September 2007 (BST)
5. Keep - I think it is a good suggestion. But in reality, I don't think a flare can actually do that much damage. A flare is a slow powered projectile tha would just burm you if you were shot with one. I do however think that this would rebelance the game.--John Basil 03:06, 7 September 2007 (BST)

   erm, the game is balanced. very balanced. if you're referring to recent zombie success, that's a question of survivors needing to up the level of their play. nothing more. --WanYao 10:36, 7 September 2007 (BST)

6. Keep - Honestly, I don't see any problems. --Abi79 ^AB 07:30, 7 September 2007 (BST)
7. Keep - I dont know what you all say. I think it's a nice addition.  P02 Samuel  Talk to me! Stop that asshole!PoleCats 12:44, 7 September 2007 (BST)
8. Keep - I'd like to see some changes making it less accurate (much like Honestmistake has suggested). Also, I'd like it to be able to damage survivor groups and the person using it. All in all, I like it.-- Unema 19:00, 7 September 2007 (BST)
9. Keep/Change - It's good as is, but Honestmistake's change would make it better. --Thelightguy 19:59, 7 September 2007 (BST)

Kill Votes

1. WTF Centuars Make it much less powerful: no XP gain for crowd shooting, less damage, far lower accuracy(something along those lines) BoboTalkClown 01:23, 7 September 2007 (BST)
2. This attack will do 7.5 damage/AP (not adding in searching)...or 6 Damage/AP when dealing with flare jackets, which would overall unbalance Flares and make them the most powerful of weapons. And why can't PKers use Flares against Suriviors?--ShadowScope 17:24, 6 September 2007 (BST)
   • Re 7.5 damage, but spread out, making it less useful for actually killing anything. If a zombie horde busts into your safehouse the flare gun is not your best option. And that 1% find rate in police stations, compared to 7% for a clip (which has 5 shots instead of 1) also prevents this from being overpowered. As for the PKer...well, I guess they should be able to blast suvivors with it too. But it wouldn't be ideal for them either. After all, they're Player Killers not "First Three Player Injurers". Someone trying to make an overwhelming PK flare assault would need to spend about two months searching, doing nothing else, and saving every flare to kill with explosive shots alone.--Jon Pyre 17:28, 6 September 2007 (BST)

   Yeah but that would be fun :) --Honestmistake 17:36, 6 September 2007 (BST) non-author RE--Karek^maps?! 20:07, 6 September 2007 (BST)

   I do like the idea, hence why it's Kill, but there are problems associated with it. Doing more damage makes it easier for regural Humans to murder off the zeds via conventional weapons, and wasting HP for Zeds make it easier to clear buildings. Good to know that Pkers can do the same thing, but I just know that suriviors don't like it. But I may think of doing a revision to this idea...with lots of changes. And the report about Fire Stations having Flares mean that when this change is made, I'm sure Rocketters will start searching in Fire Stations to store as much damage as possible...--ShadowScope 17:45, 6 September 2007 (BST)

   • • Re Even with a month of continuous searching in a firestation that only turns up 74 flares, enough to kill just 11 people. But that is a month doing NOTHING but searching in firestations. No killing anything else, no moving, nothing but finding flares one out of twenty times and autochucking fire axes. Pretty big sacrifice in order to kill 6 people in one day. --Jon Pyre 17:57, 6 September 2007 (BST)
3. Kill - 50% hit = overpowered, flare guns aren't as rare as you write. --~~~~ [Talk] 17:38, 6 September 2007 (BST)
   • Re They're 1% in PDs, where most people will get them. Firestations have them at 5% but then you lose the opportunity to find pistols or shotgun shells so it wouldn't make sense to do that. As for damage the flare's 7.5av damage per shot isn't much more than the shotgun's 6.5 damage per shot, and the flare's damage in not concentrated. --Jon Pyre 17:43, 6 September 2007 (BST)

   They are 7.5% in Hardware store were people get generators (light+BH). Usually you find 2-3 flares when looting for a gen. 7.5 MBR is more than 6.5 and "concentration" doesn't matter. 3 shots in 3 zombies separetely or with 3 "area" shots --~~~~ [Talk] 21:35, 6 September 2007 (BST)

4. Kill - As above. Either PKers just got a favorite new toy or the attack makes no sense.--Insomniac By Choice 17:38, 6 September 2007 (BST)
   • Re It would be used by PKers, but it would really only allow them to injured two people slightly. Instead of killing one person with a pistol a Pker with a flare might kill one person and leave another two at 55hp. Being able to weaken hordes though more than compensates for any minor nuisance a PKer might use the weapon for. --Jon Pyre 17:50, 6 September 2007 (BST)
     • I was thinking more of groups of PKers like Red Rum and DORIS. Otherwise, you're arguing against yourself by saying it would only allow survivors with flares to be a minor nuisance to zombies.--Insomniac By Choice 17:53, 6 September 2007 (BST)
       • Re A survivor with 5 damage heals themself. A zombie with damage might have to stay injured for a while. It'd annoy survivors (darn, got to waste a FAK!) but leave hordes less powerful and easier to boot from buildings. Also, alternatively there is no reason to bend over backwards and ruin this weapon to give PKers a toy that it doesn't make sense for them to use. The flare could be designed not to work against the living: "Living humans move quicker, three will not stay clumped long enough to catch in the tiny blast of the flare" I wasn't thinking of the PKer viewpoint when designing this suggestion, but honestly it would work well as a non-PK weapon, the same way feeding drag doesn't work on zombies. It isn't like it hurts PKers at all, so it isn't unfair to them.--Jon Pyre 17:58, 6 September 2007 (BST)
5. Kill - Flares are good weapons. I don't care what the stats say. If you happen to have a flare gun, take 1 shot at a zombie. If it hits then thats 15hp down, if not, well its only 1 AP. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:23, 6 September 2007 (BST)
6. Change - I think it's dmg/ap should be slightly reduced, so as to make this more of a niche weapon. Maybe make it equal to the pistol with regard to dmg/ap? That would be enough, considering the pistol would be a better weapon against single targets and flares would be better against multiple foes. I especially love the fact that it can only affect 3 targets. --Reaper with no name ^TJ! 00:22, 7 September 2007 (BST)
7. Kill/Change - As above, lots of good comments. As it is, I too think it's overpowered -- and flare guns aren't as rare, or as useless as you think. Those search odds are mostly B.S, no one's updated them in years... I also don't think it should have a new skill... But contrary to all the spam votes, this is actually one of the better area attack ideas I've read... not bad. --WanYao 01:22, 7 September 2007 (BST)
8. I don't have a problem with area-affect weapons. I just don't think this works realistically for a flare gun (beside the fct that 15 damage is ridiculously high in the first place).--Pesatyel 02:20, 7 September 2007 (BST)
9. Change -This does the same damage/hit total as flares, but the accuracy is way to high. Have, say, 2-3 damage (50% chance of dealing 3 and 50% chance of dealing 2) and 30% accuracy. Possibly a bit higher to balance out non-headshot and only working in crowds. --AlexanderRM 22:59, 7 September 2007 (BST)
10. Kill - they should be rewired to be an effective communications method instead of buffed as a weapon.-- Vista  +1  21:40, 13 September 2007 (BST)

    Kill- I can't believe there are so many keep votes. this is a dumb idea--Liam Degen 00:45, 22 September 2007 (BST) Voting closed -- boxy • talk • 11:10 22 September 2007 (BST)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - This suggestion is not complete. You're unclear in the suggestion text itself whether the "Explosive Flare" attack can be used against survivors. You haven't considered whether the "Explosive Flare" attack is modified by Basic Firearms Training, as the standard Flare attack is. Please, take this idea to Talk:Suggestions and work on it before re-submitting. Also, don't Re: on every vote, this is considered an abuse of the voting system. -- Pavluk 18:16, 6 September 2007 (BST)
2. Super Soldiers of Massive Explosions! - This suggestion breaks the game in many ways, lets start with the lie that is flare rarity, think it's hard to get massive ammounts of flares? Some how the First Extravaganza and Second Extravaganza got far more than enough. Then there is breaking of the stack, zombie anonymity is important and this takes a big chunk out of that, 3 zombies may not seem like a lot but it allows you to avoid the zombies top of the stack which means you weaken the horde, a lot. Then there is the third thing, this one is a bit of a deal breaker even without the first two. The third thing is that you are dealing 5 damage to 3 targets for 1 AP with a 50% chance of success. That is better than a pistol by far. Oh and the last thing, the last thing is the one you mention in your suggestion "a flare gun it's useful to sap a horde's strength so that when any of them break in somewhere the 5 or 10 hp they have missing makes it easier for some other survivor to boot them. In fact, it would even make sense for maxed out survivors to use them on zombies outside!" There are two things wrong with that, 1) it makes it even harder for zombies to hold territory against survivors who can already kill 3-10 of them at a time. 2)It rewards running outside and shooting zombies, that already has a reward, the absurdly fast xp gain is already more than reward enough. Oh and I'm pretty sure flares don't explode when fired into the ground.--Karek^maps?! 20:07, 6 September 2007 (BST)
3. Spam - You've never actually used a flare, have you? They're made from magnesium, not semtex. --Pestilent Bob 20:41, 6 September 2007 (BST)
4. I'm with Karek on this...although...I might vote keep if there's a downside to using this...such as some of the flare's sparks hits the person using this attack... --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 22:49, 6 September 2007 (BST)
5. SPAM! With your numbers, that's an average of 20 AP spent to kill 3 Zombies. This means that if you spent all 50 AP on attacking, you could kill 6 zombies, and bring 3 more down to 25 HP. That's a grand total of 375 damage, on average, with the possibility of dealing up to 750 damage. Guess what? That's overpowered. --Steakfish 01:11, 7 September 2007 (BST)
6. Spam - To call this merely overpowered would be like calling a nuke and firecracker. And i had thought that you would stop making dumb suggestions after all this time. No such luck. Darn. --The Grimch ^U! 01:50, 7 September 2007 (BST)
7. Spam - There is no other weapon attack in the game that can not be used against survivors, and you don't provide any justification for adding one. Are the living immune to damage from explosions that would injure zombies?  Swiers 03:20, 7 September 2007 (BST)
8. Spam - As above. Although I think it would kick ass if a pker group got 4500 flares and went to a loaded mall... You could do ridiculous insane mass murder like that in NW until recently when they capped the total AP from hoarding speed. Damn you Jorm.--Wooty 04:28, 8 September 2007 (BST)
9. Spam - Overpowered and last I knew, Flares weren't explosive. --Sonofagun18 05:46, 8 September 2007 (BST)
10. Spam - As above. -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 15:48, 8 September 2007 (BST)
11. Screw it. I'm not giving a reason for the rest of my votes in this spree.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 17:39, 9 September 2007 (BST)
12. Spam - Unrealistic. Flares don't explode, as such. they burn, giving out a lot of light.--Seventythree 14:21, 15 September 2007 (BST)