Suggestion:20070918 Stray Bullets

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20070918 Stray Bullets

Midianian 15:48, 18 September 2007 (BST)

Suggestion type
Firearm mechanics addition

Suggestion scope
Everybody

Suggestion description

Summary

If a player misses with a firearm, the bullet has a chance of becoming a stray bullet. The percentage for this to happen is the number of players present divided by fifty, except that it can never be above 50%. If the stray bullet hits, it causes 3/5 of normal weapon damage. The stray bullet can hit anyone in the block, except the shooter and the target. Bullets shot inside a building can't hit anyone outside and vice versa. If the victim has a flak jacket, the damage will be reduced by one third. The shooter does not gain any XP from stray bullet hits.

Details

So, if there are 100 players present, you would have a 2% chance to hit one of them if you miss your primary target. With 1000 players, the chance would be 20%. At and above 2500 players, the percentage would be 50%. The actual chance of a stray hit is smaller than that, because the bullet has to miss first. So, if you've got maxed weapon skills, the maximum chance for one bullet to become a stray is 0,65 * 50% = 32,5%.

When the game has determined that, yes, you did hit some poor bystander, it will pick a completely random player, from both zombies and survivors (with the exception of the shooter and the intended target). Because the bullet loses energy while in flight, it will cause less damage than normally. A pistol will cause 3 points of damage (2 if wearing a flak jacket), a shotgun will cause 6 points of damage (4 if wearing a flak jacket) and a flare would cause 9 points of damage (6 if wearing a flak).

If you get hit by a stray bullet, you will get a message that says, "You were hit by a stray bullet, causing X damage". You will not see who shot you. The shooter will get a message that says, "You missed. StrayBulletVictim let out a cry of pain as the stray bullet hit him", so that he can repair the damage he caused. The intended target will see the message; "ShooterDude shot at you, but missed. You heard a cry of pain as the stray bullet hit a hapless victim somewhere".

Example

Let's say 10 zombies break in to a mall-square with 120 survivors in it. Let's presume they all have flak jackets and body building. This would mean a total of 600HP (10 * 60HP). Taking them down with maxed skills would require (on average) shooting a pistol 230 times (600HP/(4dmg * 0.65)) or a shotgun 115 times (600HP/(8dmg * 0.65)). One shot (with the maxed skills) in a place with 130 players (120 survivors + 10 zombies) would have a 0,91% chance of hitting a bystander (0.35 * (130/50)). As zombies are killed this chance drops slightly, but for simplicity's sake we'll just ignore that. 230 pistol shots would cause an average of 2 stray bullet hits (230 * 0,91% = 209,3% = approximately 2 hits). That would be a total of 6 damage if the victims don't have flak jackets and 4 if they do. 115 shotgun shots would cause one stray bullet hit (115 * 0,91%) for 6 damage without a flak jacket and 4 with one.

PS

There has been arguments that this hurts survivors too much and also that this doesn't hurt them at all. If you want to read more, go to karek's talkpage or the discussion at developing suggestions (the suggestion has changed a bit afterwards so not all of the arguments there are valid).

Also, if the talkpage exists, I ask that you at least check it before voting.

Addendum

For those saying that this is like a critical miss, I'd consider a critical miss as something like You accidentally shot yourself in the foot. They usually happen more often and affect the one who misses. This on the other hand is just a consequence of shooting in a crowded place. Also, some don't seem to have realized that while shooting inside would cause "critical misses", shooting outside into a horde would then cause "critical hits". It all depends on where you are and what you are trying to do.

UD portrays a realistic (well, except for the zombies) world and I think collateral damage would fit in pretty well.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Keep - Author Vote. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 15:50, 18 September 2007 (BST)
2. Keep- I think this is well thought out, and anyone who knows me knows I'm a fan of realism.--Liam Degen 18:51, 18 September 2007 (BST)
3. Keep - Realistic, adds incentive not to crowd beyond a certain point and makes melee a bit more appealing by comparison. Interesting. --Pgunn 20:24, 18 September 2007 (BST)
4. Keep - Imagine being a PKer, attacking one target, when a stray shot kills a guy that just asked for a FAK. It'd give me a few laughs.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 21:03, 18 September 2007 (BST)
5. Keep - This isn't entirely a critical faluire, because the trenchies might hit a zombie and the pkers might hit a survivor, which is what they set out to do anyways. But it COULD be a critical faliure because you shoot your buddy. So steakfish isn't neccesarily right.--Wooty 21:49, 18 September 2007 (BST)
6. Keep - This should be intstotuted with other critical hit/critical failure possiblilities. BoboTalkClown 22:13, 18 September 2007 (BST)
7. Keep - Keep, but as with steakfish below, it might be good to have a "Lucky Bullet" addition, which would account for a "Critical Hit". --Private Mark 22:36, 18 September 2007 (BST)
8. Weak keep At least it isn't "hit someone every five seconds on accident", but it will cause grief and angry retailiation (example: someone spamkilling someone trying to attack a zombie, but accidentally hit him instead.). Glenstone 02:39, 19 September 2007 (BST)
9. Keep - It won't hurt anyone (well, literally it will, but not that much). And it might add some fun. -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 10:20, 19 September 2007 (BST)
10. Keep - Same as John, i think that it'd be funny if you 'accidentally' hit someone. --Acoustic Pie 14:11, 19 September 2007 (BST)
11. Keep Wow, How long did you work this one out?? Its a little TOO rare, It would never happen to some, and would only cause 2 damage to someone with a flak Jaket. And 6 with a shot gun... So, It would really be Extremly under powered, And i bet I would never do this. It will happen more to noobs, If you think about it. --Kaynex 20:56, 21 September 2007 (BST)
12. Keep Fucking brilliant. --O'Sheehy 17:46, 23 September 2007 (BST)
13. Keep Well, this should compensate for me missing a shotgun shot whilst facing a horde of 60 zombies...(or am I just blind?). --Packer 19:12, 24 September 2007 (BST)
14. KeepWhat Packer said. --MrCoolantSpray 19:06, 29 September 2007 (BST)
15. Keep - This is a pretty original idea. I love it. A lot of people are saying it's so incredibly terrible, and so forth, but if you look at the odds, it's not that bad. --LumiReaver 19:28, 4 October 2007 (BST)

Kill Votes

1. Kill - This is an example of a "critical failure." For those unfamiliar with RPG terminology, a critical failure represents a very small chance of messing an action up so badly that it does basically the opposite of what you wanted (like accidentally shooting yourself or your buddy, instead of the enemy). If a game includes critical failures, it typically also includes critical successes. A critical success is a very small chance for an action to be "extra good." You might accidentally hit your target in the head, even though you weren't really aiming there. What I'm saying is, I don't like this suggestion by itself. If Urban Dead were ever to use a critical success/failure system, this would be a good idea for the failure half. --Steakfish 18:49, 18 September 2007 (BST)

   My vote is still kill, but for a slightly different reason, now. It is both a critical failure AND a critical success, but it is limited to only those who wield guns and their targets. Since most survivors aren't PKers, and aren't usually firing into a large crowd of other survivors, zeds would be the ones getting hit by most of the stray bullets. There should be a critical success/failure system for all attacks (or maybe just most attacks...I can't imagine landing a crushing blow with a tennis racket). --Steakfish 02:14, 20 September 2007 (BST)

2. Steakfish nails this one.--Vow 20:33, 18 September 2007 (BST)
3. Kill - Yes he definitely did. Above! Not a bad suggestion though.--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 21:09, 18 September 2007 (BST)
4. Kill -Yes, steakfish does have a good point. In fact, since I can't see that this suggestion is for anything but realism, then you should also have a chance of critical hits. --AlexanderRM 00:39, 19 September 2007 (BST)

   RE: You can get "critical hits" if you want to call them that. It all depends on where you do your shooting and what your objective really is. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 06:44, 19 September 2007 (BST)

5. Kill - Mr Steakfish got it in one. Good man.--Seventythree 01:01, 19 September 2007 (BST)
6. Kill Steakfish: Props ~A`Blue`Jelly^TME*V*I*L*_? 06:01, 19 September 2007 (BST)
7. Kill per Steakfish. And besides, why would a projectile do less damage just because it didn't hit its initial target? The ranges assumed in this game (city block or less) would have no effect whatsoever on stopping power. AndToGo 06:43, 19 September 2007 (BST)
8. Kill - First off, the stray bullet idea would bring nothing but grief to survivors. Second, Steakfish's whole critical failure/success idea isn't bad, but I'm not completely convinced that this would work in UD. --Sonofagun18 07:45, 19 September 2007 (BST)
9. Kill - I actually rather like this idea, but I'm not sure UD's simple combat system needs any tweaks.--Jiangyingzi 09:26, 19 September 2007 (BST)
10. Kill - as Steakfish. Although I might support a suggestion that includes both critical successes and failures. --Pavluk ^{A! E!} 10:32, 19 September 2007 (BST)
11. Kill - Doesn't really fit into UD. As above, mostly. --Saluton 04:48, 20 September 2007 (BST)
12. kill - too rare and too random! --Honestmistake 17:14, 21 September 2007 (BST)
13. Kill - I do not want to be brought down while trying to defend a mall because everybody fired at once and many of the bullets hit me. Although there's a good chance it would hit a zed in a horde, if only one or two broke in, it's probably going to be a survivor that gets hit.--Thragnor 23:24, 23 September 2007 (BST)
14. Kill - Not bad for flavor. Not bad for realism. Just too complex. Yeah, I understand how it works, but imagine a new player who gets shot by a stray bullet and asks you to explain how and why it happened and how it can be avoided in the future. Now try typing the explanation into the amount of space you have for speaking in-game. Plus, firing into a crowd, it effectively raises weapon accuracy. --Nosimplehiway 23:11, 28 September 2007 (BST)

    "The more players present, the higher chance the for a stray bullet. The stray can hit anyone in the block. No way to prevent." That's only 125 letters, and the maximum for speaking is 255, so you could even fit in less important stuff. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 19:14, 29 September 2007 (BST)

15. I want to vote keep, but... -Well, it comes down to the PKers. This doesn't really hurt the survivors any more than it hurts the zombies (unless the survivors outnumber them, in which case this would serve as a balancing measure), since it is just as likely to hit zombies as survivors. It evens out. But for PKers, this issue does not exist. It's a good thing no matter who gets hit, as far as they're concerned. This specifically helps PKers, and I can't vote keep for that reason. --Reaper with no name ^TJ! 23:54, 4 October 2007 (BST)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - Far too little of an effect, and raising it only hurts survivors more. Don't hurt survivors trying to defend their building, even a little goes a long way. -- SgtBop 17:04, 18 September 2007 (BST)

   Extended discussion moved to talk page --Karek^maps?! 14:23, 19 September 2007 (BST)

2. spam' Sockem 21:06, 18 September 2007 (BST)
3. spam - i'm a vegetarian, leave me alone. --WanYao 07:19, 19 September 2007 (BST)

   ok... seriously... just stop the area effect weapons. especially area affect weapons that take control from me of my character in a totally UNFUN way. no more of this spam, gimme some lentils, please. --WanYao 07:21, 19 September 2007 (BST)

4. Spam - So many things wrong with this, some of which we already covered in the link to my talk page that was provided in the suggestion. But, lets add on the effect this has for pkers who spend time in malls or forts, all this does is make it even easier for people with gun skills to level/deal damage under any circumstance. Pkers can shoot and kill more survivors indoors, survivors can shoot and kill more zombies outdoors. Along with the rewarding you for failing junk and everything else that I'm too lazy to type up.--Karek^maps?! 10:34, 19 September 2007 (BST)
5. Spam - Yeah, super-random AoE effects? Not a Good idea. --Karlsbad 23:03, 19 September 2007 (BST)

   This isn't an Area of Effect mechanic. If you hit with a stray bullet, it only effects one person. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 09:54, 20 September 2007 (BST)

   Hmm, the extra damage "effects" the entire "area"? Even if it hits one person, how many times are you only going to shoot your gun once? --Karlsbad 02:00, 21 September 2007 (BST)

   Area of Effect means that more than one person is effected at any one time. Also, please refer to the example. Enough bullets to kill 10 zombies were fired, and only one or two stray bullets, so it can't really be considered an AoE thingie. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 06:58, 21 September 2007 (BST)

6. Dupe, but this vote won't count until someone provides a link. That someone should try looking in the mess of Rejected. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 22:51, 20 September 2007 (BST)