Help Desk

Need help figuring out how to use / follow / get the most out of the new advert guidelines? Post here!

Sample Question

Blah, blah, blah blah. Blah blah? --User: Blah 16:53, 17 August 2007 (BST)

Recruitment templates for dummies

DK13 advertisement has been removed again, even though i do my best to keep the time stamp up to date, and now i can not remember how to restore our group advert. Could someone please tell me how to restore it, or could a mod restore it for me and i will just update the timestamp? Thanks! --T13 14:25, 28 April 2008 (BST)

i made a guide for making a recruitment ad, it may be usefull to those of you that are having a hard time figuring out how to make one. --Bullgod 02:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Balls of Steel recruitment add help

I need help with setting up an advert for my group. It keeps getting deleted. What exactly am I supposed to do?

from what i see you tried to put one up in the old style, we don't use that any more, you'll have to make a recruitment template. you know me over on the FU boards, i can help you there if you need a guide. --Bullgod 01:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello! Right, what you need to do is go to this page Balls of Steel/recruit, and copy all the text and the image that you have made for the ad onto that page. Once you have done that, you go back to the Recruitment page and put the following under the Balls of Steel header:

{|
|-
|
{{:Balls of Steel/recruit}} - ~~~~
|}

That will call the text and picture onto the Recruitment page under the header, and lessens the total amount of text actually on the page making it easier for people to edit. Also, please sign all posts on wiki talk pages with ~~~~. Hope this helps! - W 01:26, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

G.I.F.D. troubleshooting

Could someone more wiki-literate than me please check the following to see whether our advert is disrupting others:

"G.I.F.D. recruitment excerpt.

Its screwing the recruitment page and at least 1, or even all the ones below it don't show (depending on what you do) Mainly it seems to screw the group directly below although orginally it was the whole page. You might want to look into this quickly and get it fixed up.--Zach016 01:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)"

This was originally posted on User_talk:Zyll. I've checked the recruitment page and couldn't see any obvious problems. Has someone already fixed it? Any assistance would be appreciated. Thanks. --Dan Everyman 01:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Whitehouse --Zyll ^GIFD

10:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll just explain very quickly. The GIFD ad page had an unclosed table tag. So if you have a {| tag on a page, you have to close it with a |} tag. This resulted in there being two {| tags, and one |} tags, which resulted in one of the tables trying to include subsequent ads alongside it. This was only a problem in IE, because Firefox didn't seem to have a problem interpreting an unclosed tag... no idea why that is... always close tags however, unclosed tags cause problems. - W 20:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks muchly. --Dan Everyman 02:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

What Gives?

TNR's ad has once again been removed. Why? Im beginning t think that the admins here don't like us. Ill wait for a reply before putting our ad back up with any changes it requires, unless someone is just getting rid of our ad to screw with us. --Blanemcc 10:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

They get removed after a period of time so only active recruiters get space and defunct groups disappear. - Pardus 10:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

My recruitment ad was less than a month old. Mobius check it out for me and said there was nothing wrong with it that he could see. Maybe some formatting error or something? --Blanemcc 14:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Or it could be that the time limit is two weeks. Put it back up again, and remember to keep updating the timestamp every two weeks. - W 18:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

2 weeks? Aye aye aye Gordon! Will do, I thought it was a yearly update :p. Thanks --Blanemcc 21:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Sort by Suburb?

Why not sort the page by suburb -- It would save new players the trouble of having to find a group, then find one in their area. -- Starman537 06:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Many groups aren't localized to a suburb, most zombie groups are completely mobile out of necessity. --Karek^maps?! 09:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense. Perhaps there could be both, as in if your group operates in a suburb, you put it in your suburbs category, and all the unsorted could be put below in Zombie and Living categories. --Starman537 16:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Their is also survivor groups that have multiple suburbs they work out of. Look at DEM for example. I can't name any suburb they are not apart of. This would make things a bit more difficult for new players to make their way threw the wiki on top of being new to the game. In my oppinion it is a great idea, but, would make things so much more harder for new players that they could become discouraged with the whole idea. --XxPale HorsexX / XxCannon FodderxX 17:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, my idea is, we have categories, by suburb, alphabetically. So, as an example:

<example>

Dartside

No groups from this suburb have posted here

Darvall Heights

Survivor

Join the Darvall Police Department today!

Zombie

Join the Darvall Horde and start enjoying fresh brainz today!

Player Killer/Other

Join the Philosophe Knights today! Annihilate the ignorant!

</example>

We would have the all encompassing ones like the DEM on the top with a brief explanation as to why its not in a category. I would suggest having the groups only post in the main suburb that they operate in. The Crimson Clan would be under Havercroft even though they also operate in the surrounding burbs a bit.

For Nomads, we could put that on top or bottom of the whole thing as well. I just think that if done right, it would save a lot of newbies some trouble, as well as generate groups more interest and activity when people can filter by location. If I'm in Grigg Heights I dont want to have to scroll through groups who are in Gibsonton. Also, sorry for the huge wall of text, I didnt know how to clean it up. --Starman537 22:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

its still overly complicated and unneeded, if a group wants to advertise what suburb their in they can add themselves to the known groups area of that suburbs specific page. if you go to the Darvall Heights page you would see what groups operate there, if the advertising group doesn't want to make the effort to put their name on the list then thats their loss. it also causes a problem for groups that operate permanently in more than one suburb, take my group the Feral Undead for instance. alto often nomadic we try to keep permanent presence in both Scarletwood and Whittenside, we would have to put ads for both? what about the groups that operate in five suburbs? this idea just wouldn't work as well as it looks on paper, and we finally have a system that works fairly well on the recruitment page and i for one don't want to mess with a good thing. --Bullgod 11:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Why?????

Juuust curious, for some reason people keep killing off my recruit poster (below Penguin Mafia where it's meant to be) it follows the requirements set out on the page but for some reason it keeps getting killed? why? Peoples Militia of Malton

--Medico 22:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

From what I can see your image is way to large. And as such I can remove or hide your ad. Resize the image to the correct size, put it back up and timestamp it. - Whitehouse 15:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Confused

(...and for the record, it doesn't take much.) It doesn't look like the groups posted are using the new template. Am I wrong? Speaking of the new template - I'm really confused as to how to use it. (I'm a relatively new wiki user.) I'm sure it is explained in plain English, but I don't see it. Could I get some help, here?--Lois Millard 11:48, 27 September 2007 (BST)

There is no single template. Instead, you make a page yourself (typically named Group/recruit) and include it in a manner similar to a template, using the code {{:Example_Page}}. The Format for Posting Adverts section explains this briefly, but I'm happy to help step by step. At this point, the first step would be to create your advert "template" page - just edit a (new) page called (your group's name)/recruit to contain your advert (and nothing else) and from there it is quite simple.

Swiers 13:52, 27 September 2007 (BST)

Oh! I see! So I was making it much harder than it needed to be. Thanks! I'll see what I can come up with!--Lois Millard 17:11, 27 September 2007 (BST)

Would you mind taking a look at it to let me know if it is alright? It's the 10 Minutes from Hell section. Thanks!--Lois Millard 17:31, 27 September 2007 (BST)

Looks great. In fact, its a very good example for others to follow.

Swiers 00:08, 28 September 2007 (BST)

Thanks for your help!--Lois Millard 13:14, 28 September 2007 (BST)

50% failure rate?

Yeesh, if I disregard the adverts I myself posted, it looks like there is a 50% failure rate in following the new guidelines. Is there something that should be done about this? I din't want people getting upset because they slapped up an advert and then come back two weeks later to find out it was never displayed. Then again, there's only so much you can do to contact people / explain the system... Swiers 14:52, 19 August 2007 (BST)

Well, two failed on the timestamp. If they had only posted below rather than trying to include it in their line of code they would have passed. One didn't try, just reposted the whole ad instead of converting. And one failed on image size. All in all that doesn't look too bad. I'll contact the creators of any future ads that I remove. I think we should do that for first times. Or maybe we could create a template that we simply post on the talk pages of the creators of ads that need to be redone. - Whitehouse 18:24, 19 August 2007 (BST)

That is partly my concern- the failures are so TRIVIAL that they seem to indicate a lack of simple reading / following directions. Anyhow, I fixed the two cases where the timestamps were included but implemented in a manner that did not display (easier than making notification) and also added a bit to the code in the guidelines so that every advert section now "encases" the advert in a table. This last bit fixes a common formating problem caused when an advert's image is taller than its text. Seemed easier to do this way than by forcing every advert page to contain the table code or otherwsie avoid formating cross-talk, and I think it actually makes the Recruitment page code easier to read, as well.

Swiers 18:51, 19 August 2007 (BST)

Didn't think of it like that, you make a good point. Anyway, in future if I see timestamps that are there but not displayed I will "make them appear". As for the table part, good idea. - Whitehouse 20:11, 19 August 2007 (BST)

Question about the table. Is the "|-" part necessary, will it not work without it? - Whitehouse 20:23, 19 August 2007 (BST)

It was my impression that you DO need the "|-", as it is equivalent to the "<TR>" tag in HTML. But after having experimented a bit, it does seem to work equally well without. Still, it seems best to keep it in there so the code is "official" - maybe not all browsers handle the "shortcut code" the same way. Is there some reason you'd rather its not there?

Swiers 20:48, 19 August 2007 (BST)

Not at all, I was just curious. - Whitehouse 21:06, 19 August 2007 (BST)

Cool, it looks like a few people did it right now. Having table code as part of the advert seacion seems to work really well- no formating problems, and its super easy to read the code. Whew!

Swiers 04:43, 21 August 2007 (BST)

B.E.S.T.

Why did my B.E.S.T. recruitment poster get deleted??Agent Fenix 21:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's either because that timestamp wasn't updated in two weeks or it was improperly formatted.-- AHLG T G THE END IS NIGH! 21:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Bloody Aftermath - huh?

Bloody Aftermath Logo

Bloody Aftermath is an open-to-all group. We will do various things, but most of all: we are a non-PK group. Raids on zeds are okay, but remember that there are some zombie members....

The above is my advert for Bloody Aftermath. I don't see the problem with it. --Bloodkiller 01:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)--

I'm guessing you didn't display a timestamp with / in your advert. Looking at the histories, I'm pretty sure of it, in fact.

Swiers 03:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Might be that, but also notice that he isn't actually calling his ad, but writing within the template. Which does not reduce the amount of text on the page, as you intended when you created the system. - Whitehouse ^T 15:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Yep, that's a BIG boo-boo too. Although the point of using includes isn't so much to reduce the amount of text on the page, as to reduce the number of edits made to the page. By making people design the adverts on their own group sub-pages, we keep a lot of messy edits (and resulting conflicts / forks) off this page.

Swiers 21:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

So, add timestamp, and it will be fine? -- 22:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

No. You need to create a new page (called something like Bloody_Aftermath/recruit) and design it so it looks like what you want your advert to look like. Then take another look at Format for Posting Adverts section; it should be clear what to do then, and will tell you how to "include" your entire newly designed advert page onto the main page via a little code trick. Be very mindful of the EXACT punctuation used; there is a big difference between {{:this}} and [[:this]] or [[image:this]].

Swiers 02:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Other Discussion

Istambul (not Constatinople)

Recruitment is now Category:Recruitment. The purpose of this move is to allow the category listings to be shown on the same page as the recruitment adverts. This talk page wasn't moved because... well, laziness mostly. Instead, the [[:Talk:Category:Recruitment]] page redirects here, turning the two pages into a "two headed monster page". Simplify it if you wish, or make up a song about it, it works either way. Swiers 23:51, 16 September 2007 (BST)

Timestamps:2

What happened to the good old courtesy call? i.e. "Your timestamp has expired". I understand it only adds to the crazy workload, but a quick warning is genuinely appreciated. --Karloth Vois ^RR 00:00, 13 August 2007 (BST)

We have recently had some problems. And no ads are being removed for a while. Anyway, I don't normally give people a heads up, though if you really feel that I should then I guess I will begin to do so (great, more work). Do note that only groups that have someone sign with their user profile will get heads up, as the person who signed will get the heads up. Anyway, as I said, no deletions for about another 10 days. - Whitehouse 12:37, 13 August 2007 (BST)

Actually, that brings up a question, and I think that obviously the advertisers need to be reasonable about this. How long before the expiration date should I give a warning? 1 day? 2 days?. Or should I on noticing an expiration send a message and then if it's not updated within a set time after the message is sent, it gets deleted? - Whitehouse 12:40, 13 August 2007 (BST)

The latter method would necessitate you keeping track somewhere of who you've sent messages to? 'T'would seem much simpler to go through daily, pull the ads at >14 days as you're doing now, then go through and drop "Your ad goes poof in 48 hours" to the folks that are at 12 days. If that becomes the customary practice (me, I understand it's a nice courtesy, but I'm not sure I would require the pagemaster to do it), then you can be sure that anyone being removed got two days' notice. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 19:07, 13 August 2007 (BST)

Once we switch over to the individual recruitment page method, it might make sense to just put / update a dated warning template on any [[Talk:Group Name/recruit]] page when its timestamps is about to / has expired. Anybody who has that page watch listed will then get the notification. Can't really be any more directly communicated than that, I'd think. Personally I'd favor only giving notice of actual expiration; it keeps all the work in one chunk, and the new system makes it trivially easy to just go back and put your advert up again with a fresh time stamp.

Swiers 19:39, 13 August 2007 (BST)

Right, well you both have given good suggestions. I am not sure which to go with. Either warning before expiration, or a warning after expiration. Swiers is right in it being simple to put it back, almost as simple as updating the timestamp. But I guess some people would rather never have their ad removed from the page. The idea of giving the warnings on the ads talk page is good and I will do that. But as to when the warning is received I will have to think about. Maybe I could have some more feedback, anyone else going to say something. Karloth, anything to add? - Whitehouse 20:05, 13 August 2007 (BST)

Ach, it all sounds good to me! Sorry for the note- I just remember (quite some time ago, I can't honestly say who was doing this page back then) a courtesy call a couple of days before it expired. Obviously, it's a lot more work- please don't feel obligated. --Karloth Vois ^RR 01:27, 14 August 2007 (BST)

Just a note, I am now attempting 1-2 days warnings (it's hard to be accurate when school work gets in the way). You get a warning stating that in 1-2 days time your ad will be removed for either expiration or non compliance. Expiration meaning that the timestamp runs out in two days time. And non compliance meaning something is wrong with the ad, such as too large images, incorrect format and so on. - Whitehouse 17:56, 1 September 2007 (BST)

As some may have noticed (but hopefully not) I am no longer giving warnings. I tried for two weeks, and it really is more bother than I want to mess around with. It's a cumbersome way to do things, and until I can find a new way to do it people will have to remember for themselves. If someone really has a hard time with this, then leave me a note requesting that you be given warnings (seriously, only if you truly can't remember on your own. - Whitehouse 20:04, 17 September 2007 (BST)

Timestamps... um, sort of

Hola Whitehouse. Hey, this edit has dorked a good many groups' timestamps; it seems likely the editor was working from an older version of the page. Some group reps have caught it and updated their timestamps, but others haven't. Might I suggest that no ads be removed for the next 13 days, since anyone who updated their timestamp shortly before the page got dorked would have no way of knowing they're endangered? Thanks for the work you do keeping this monster in shape. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 03:42, 11 August 2007 (BST)

Ouch, I see what you mean. Fine then. For the next 13 days I will not remove ads. Maybe I should be thankful this happened at the time when a new system is being suggested. - Whitehouse 02:53, 12 August 2007 (BST)

Sometime tomorrow I begin to remove ads again. You asked me on the 11th, it will be the 24th. I guess that was the date you had in mind. I'll probably do it late tomorrow. Sometime near midnight. It'll be Friday (or Saturday depending on how late I do it), so I can be up late without worrying about school. Any objections? - Whitehouse 15:25, 23 August 2007 (BST)

Uncategorized pages

Hey this whole ads as subpage thing has really incressed the number of uncatgorized pages in the wiki becasue of this im going the change the wording of in the format section mainly the lines

"You should put the following on on your "Group Name/recruit" page: <noinclude>[[Category:Recruitment|Type]]</noinclude> This information will be used to construct a list of links to adverts which is sorted by type rather than name. It is not required that you include this (or even the type listing in the header) but it almost certainly will aide in your advert's success."

to

"You need to put the following categories on your "Group Name/recruit" page:
<noinclude>[[Category:Group Subpage]]</noinclude>
or
<noinclude>[[Category:"Insert Group Name Here"]]</noinclude> if your group has a category of it's own.
Additionally you should add
<noinclude>[[Category:Recruitment|TYPE]]</noinclude> where TYPE is one of the follwing: Human Groups, Zombie Groups, PKer Groups, Mixed Groups and Organizations."

- Vantar 15:42, 20 August 2007 (BST)

Is there some problem that uncategorized pages cause? Most templates are not categorized; rather, the page they ae USED ON is categorized. And that holds here. Anyhow, if you do make the above edit, check how the edit actually shows up on the recruitment page. The intro section is an include, and you need to be aware that simply putting "<nowiki>" tags around "<noinclude>" will NOT cause the text to be included. I resorted to HTML escapement codes, such as those you will see if you edit this section.

Swiers 15:57, 20 August 2007 (BST)

Uncategorized pages may or may not cause problems on their own but they do get in the way of identifing other problems by cluttering Special:Uncategorizedpages, templates are not a problem becasue they exsist in the template namespace and do not show up in the Special:Uncategorizedpages list but since the recruitment ads are in the main name space they do. The <nowiki>s where just so the <noinclude>s whould show up while I was talking about them. I'm aware that there are some formating issues with what I have written and how the intro section works, I'll try and work them out but that may not get done today.- Vantar 17:33, 20 August 2007 (BST)

I would request that you do not add "Human Group", but have it as "Survivor Group". Many groups are already referred to as survivor groups. - Whitehouse 18:37, 20 August 2007 (BST)

That can be arranged I used "Human Group", because that was on the main Recruitment page - Vantar 23:14, 20 August 2007 (BST)

Image Sizes Changed?

Whats up? I see five or six images in various groups adverts containing images of about 400PX X 600PX in size ... have the dimensions been increased without my knowing about it?

Everytime i go even 1PX over the 275PX X 275PX square limit, i get whitehouse "resizing" my image almost within the hour ... so what gives? --MK 20:16, 12 October 2007 (BST)

I am sorry MK, I have been really busy lately (in real life) and as such I haven't had the time to check everyone's image. I will do so today (weekend gives me enough time). - Whitehouse 14:50, 13 October 2007 (BST)

Okies, no problems! Im the same myself right now. I wish there were an extra few hours in each day so i could actually finish the things i get started and still have time for a hot meal and a shower before i pass out with exhaustion! Bring on the thirty two hour day!

Also, slight problem with the DK13 advert, problem as in you have removed the content? Any chance you can "revert" it back or whatever it is you wiki moderating people do? Thanks!!!!!!!!!! --MK 17:35, 14 October 2007 (BST)

Reverted and all that stuff. :P - Whitehouse 20:02, 14 October 2007 (BST)

_{below sourced from the Recruitment page and to be left here for reference}

Eh.. MK.. you are the one who pointed it out, then you go above the restrictions? - Whitehouse 15:04, 13 October 2007 (BST)

Sorry mate, all the oversized group images i seen (five or six in total?) were all dated as being several days old, and knowing first hand how "on the ball" you are with that kind of thing, i figured you would have spotted them long ago and resized them already. I therefore, presumed that current limitations had been lifted, and didn't have time to go over the fine print again as i was on my way out, having only popped in to update the timestamp. My mistake and i apologise!

That said, i done you a favour by pointing it out, right? So why you have to remove our advert and post this here, and not towards any of the original offenders, when a message would have done the trick?

Two further point's:

1: Will we EVER see these current image size restrictions improved slightly, or increased, rather than disaproved, or at least restored back to the previous, more sensible or at least "flexible" restrictions?

2: I didn't sleep now for thirty one hours and forty minutes, give or take a few minutes, due to real life work commitments, and NOT late night gaming/pron/blog/witchcraft/ninjitsu/interweb activitys ... i need to sleep right now, so can you please, please, pretty please with sugar on top restore our DK13 recruitment advert? --MK 17:31, 14 October 2007 (BST)

Monroeville groups

i realize its a temporary thing but should Monroeville groups have a separate section for recruitment? they are after all in a different city.--Bullgod 17:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

ALL pages related to Monreoville should be in the format [[Monreoville/PAGE]], so essetially, Monroeville should have its own recruitment page. But I suppose for now we could do a seperate section on this page, yah. Given that recruitment is more of a metagame thing, and opertains to PLAYERS, not CITIES, it might even be appropriate.

Swiers 19:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Done.

Swiers 19:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Timestamps and rules

Timestamps

Current rule:

The ad must have a timestamp (five tildes - ~~~~~) or a signature with an attached timestamp. This can be placed either on this page or on your ads page.

Now I think it will be necessary to demand that all timestamps appear when editing the recruitment page. As such, having timestamps on your ads page would no longer be acceptable. It would have to be on the recruitment page in some form. Acceptable versions would be:

===[[The Electric Light Torchestra]] : Survivor Group===	 
 {|	 
 |-	 
 |	 
 {{:The_Electric_Light_Torchestra/Recruit}}	 
 --{{User:PsychoLychee/Sig}} 12:26, 29 May 2008 (BST)
 |}

 === [[Feral Undead]] (zombie group)===
 {|
 |-
 |
 {{:Feral Undead/Recruit|200|--[[User:Bullgod|Bullgod]] 03:07, 4 June 2008 (BST)}}
 |}

Both of those show the timestamps in the editing section. Other versions, such as those that have the timestamp on the called page do not show their timestamp in the editing section. Unacceptable would be:

===[[The Malton Zookeepers]] : Equal Opportunity Employer===
 {|
 |-
 |
 {{:The Malton Zookeepers/recruit}}
 |}

No timestamp shows, it is actually there, but only displays if you preview. Now, you should always preview before submitting, but having to scroll though the editing section and the preview section and after all that previewing it all again, this time to check that nothing is crashing, that is just annoying.

So the rule would be altered to:

The ad must have a timestamp (five tildes - ~~~~~) or a signature with an attached timestamp. This must be placed on this page.

Rules

I'd like the rules to see a change or two. we currently have a commenting out rule that I am not too fond of. Simply because it leaves the remains of broken ads on the page in the form of headers with nothing under but a comment. Commenting out is meant to be used to remove ads with minor problems, but not completely. The ads with major problems on the other hand are meant to have their stuff removed. I'm suggesting we remove the commenting out rule, and remove all traces of ads that have are broken in some form, both major and minor.

But then they would not know what was wrong with their ad? Which is why I was thinking we could possibly have a section either near the top or bottom of the page listing ads that have had a problem and been removed. something like:

Ads in need of repair

The following ads are in need of some form of repair and have been removed from the page, please replace them with the required adjustments. Your ad will be removed from this reminder list in two weeks from the timestamp made by the editor, or when you fix it:

British Military Corps/Recruit - Needs to fix the image size - User:Whitehouse 16:15, 10 June 2008 (BST)
Roftwood_Emergency_Response/recruit - Has subheaders, please remove them. - User:Whitehouse 16:15, 10 June 2008 (BST)
Hei-bei Heroes ~ Wu-shu Warriors/Recruit - Has text on this page, follow the link and put your text on that page, then post as part of the format given above. - User:Whitehouse 16:15, 10 June 2008 (BST)

Ads whose timestamp has run out will not be mentioned.

The advantage of having such a section is that all ads would get a comment near the top of the page, and you would know where to look. It also keeps the page tidier, without headers with no content beneath except editors comments. This means a minor addition of workload for the editors. Also: as with my other suggestion above, it is possible to keep it all in the editing section. Is this needless, comments please. :) - User:Whitehouse 16:15, 10 June 2008 (BST)

Image Question.

My question is as follows, what do i need to do to this image (http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Image:Dk13_logo_008.jpg) which i have been told is NOT allowed, in order for it to be allowed on the recruitment page, as in the case of this image (http://wiki.urbandead.com/images/b/bc/Wiki.png) which IS allowed.

They look pretty much the same to me!?! Help? --T13 14:59, 29 July 2008 (BST)

Who told you that image was not allowed? And where did they do that?

The ad format is clearly stated on the page, with regards to images;

"Images are limited to a total of 76,000 pixels, which allows 275 pixels square, or a similar area (multiple images that total under this size are allowed)."

is the relevant section you want.

By and large Whitehouse and myself (the main two who maintain this page) don't generally care if images go over this by a bit. However if the image breaks the page, is generally obnoxious (or belongs to someone who is) or makes our eyes bleed then we can fall back on the guidelines and remove the image.

Hope this clears everything up. --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 18:33, 29 July 2008 (BST)

Yeah, it was whitehouse who removed firstly approved the image, then removed the image, and then removed our entire content over the course of several weeks last year. Just a misunderstanding i guess? So, we are cleared to use that image now without having to edit it at all? Thanks! --T13 03:15, 30 July 2008 (BST)

+

Cheers Iscariot, but it isn't all cleared up yet. Am i approved to use the banner style image (link above) or not? I don't see ANY problem with that particular image myself, but i don't want to put it there until you say so as i guess our whole section will be removed if you don't like it! Let me know? --T13 20:21, 31 July 2008 (BST)

I am a user just like yourself, I have no rights to approve or disapprove of any image or entry on this page. The page guidelines are clearly stated at the top of the page, provided your ad conforms to these it should be fine. You might want to try asking Whitehouse why he removed it originally. --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 22:04, 31 July 2008 (BST)

Whitehouse? Are you reading this? If so, what do i need to do to the image i want to use in order for it to be accepted? Cheers! --T13 20:03, 18 August 2008 (BST)

Either we were under a different set of rules, or in all likelihood it just might be that I am more strict than Iscariot when it comes to image size. But if Iscariot says he has decided to be more lax about this I will accept his judgement on that, but one request, keep it to max 600px in width (with the sidebar for the wiki it should fit only just for a monitor with 800x600 resolution [actually it only just doesn't but we can overlook the small disruption]). I know few people have such small monitors, but some still do. - User:Whitehouse 17:34, 2 September 2008 (BST)

Do whatever you wish Whitehouse. The main reason that I don't bother enforcing the image rule is pure laziness to check. If something looks too big, or clearly breaks the page I kill it on principle.

It all balances in the end, I'm more strict on some things, you on others. --

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 18:18, 9 September 2008 (BST)

oh for peats sake...

Any one still looking after the page? Have you looked at it in a while? Everyting has gone to shit, someone make the bad posts go away. :'( --Bullgod 09:47, 20 August 2008 (BST)

Bah, I cleaned it up a bit myself, just got rid of all the adds not using templates, because frankly its retarded that people cant read the damn guidelines for posting an ad.--Bullgod 16:45, 20 August 2008 (BST)

I wasn't cleaning this page due to disillusionment with the wiki due the conduct of the sysops, the supposed 'trusted users'.

Since I've altered the rules to my page and this isn't connected to any admin section I'll continue to maintain this page. 19 groups removed....including all three of yours BG ;)

--

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 18:49, 30 August 2008 (BST)

The wonder of the recruitment page.

Personally I feel this page is Rubbish.

My main concern is the ordering. I mean alphabetical? I'm sure the Army Control Corp do quite well out of it, But im sure the Williamsville Horde of Organized Zombies, get a bum deal.

Would it not be easier to break it down into separate areas/pages, by zone/district/group type?

Incidently well done to the Monroeville Many. Long may they be the only recruiting group in monroeville. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 21:29, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Haven't been working on this page in ages, only just crossed my mind to check what was going on. About sorting; well there are always going to be complaints, and alphabetical seems most neutral, but if you have a better way please do expand upon it here and we will take a look at it. I'm going to be back to doing weekly checks on the Recruitment page and this the talk page, so hopefully I can help out. - User:Whitehouse 17:26, 2 September 2008 (BST)

I'm not opposed to a different method of organising the page, it's just, I can't think of a fairer one. By suburb? Then they'll be arguments of whether we organise them alphabetically or geographically. If geographically, where will you start and will you work North/South or West/East?

The table of contents shows the names of all groups at the top (provided the ad is placed correctly), with myself and Whitehouse clearing the detritus out quickly, this should minimise the effect of being at the bottom by keeping only valid and indate ads on there. --

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 18:21, 9 September 2008 (BST)

Ive been thinking about it for a while, and I found myself thinking the only ways to do it (Which inthemselves involve effort) are as so.

1. Divide malton into 4. NW,SE etc. Separate page for each.

2. Replace group links on suburb pages with links to adverts. They expire, they get lost. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 18:36, 9 September 2008 (BST)

Sorry Rosslessness, with all that's been going on I must have missed your response. The problem with dividing Malton is that we're going to then have to make arbitrary decision as to where a group is active, for example if someone is near one of the borders and put and ad in the adjacent zone's page, do we kill it? Or is the fact that a couple of their members occasionally frequent one building in there count? I don't like the idea of making that kind of decision towards groups I might not know as part of page maintenance.

Also what about nomadic groups? Do they get an ad in each zone or only one in the area they're currently in? Again, how will we police either of these? If a group says they're nomadic (or have a team in that area) I can't really remove their ad, and as soon as people realise that, we'll have everybody being nomadic just to increase their profile. All I can see this idea doing is making three other copies of the current page.

Now the idea of making links in suburb pages does intrigue me. Take it to the people behind the Suburb Massacre project and see what they think. It could possible for the maintenance we do here to keep the suburb pages up to date as well, provided there's a way to code it. See if they think it's a feasible idea. On the surface, this definitely has my support. --

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 23:17, 19 September 2008 (BST)

Well, let's hope that folks will actually search the whole page before picking a group. Not that I'm complaining, I mean... Axes High ain't that far from the top. --Hardcore Rockabilly 23:33, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Huh?

did the time limit on ads change? is it one week instead of two? /me is slightly confused.

No, old time limit is still here. Why do you ask? - User:Whitehouse 13:19, 8 September 2008 (BST)

Please revisit the "large group" rule

From the opening section:

Large Groups or Organizations with significant subgroups are limited to one ad. This includes groups such as the DHPD and the Department of Emergency Management, they may use their ad to direct players to the separate sub-groups.

We of the DEM are currently faced with the demands of a group of detractors who claim that our single recruitment ad is evidence that the DEM is in reality one large group instead of the "umbrella organization" term that may well have had its genesis on this very page. Interestingly, it's also been claimed that the large-group rule actually gives us a recruiting advantage that other groups don't enjoy, the ability to recruit many varied types of players all at once, and even encourages multi-abuse by offering a sort of "one-stop shopping" for all the types of characters a player might want to enjoy. We therefore believe that the large-group rule should be reviewed and, consensus willing, abandoned. Thank you for your attention. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 06:06, 9 September 2008 (BST)

I wouldn't have a problem with you having separate group ads, but simply saying you are all more separate than before doesn't really prove it? Or is this to be your proof, that you now recruit separately? Whatever, I'm fine with it :) Iscariot and everyone else, your opinion? - User:Whitehouse 13:33, 9 September 2008 (BST)

No, this isn't intended to be proof, merely a concession to the folks who believe the single ad for eight groups gives us an unfair recruiting advantage. Thanks, Whitehouse. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 16:32, 9 September 2008 (BST)

Also, as a minor clarification: when we say that we wish to have multiple ads, we mean to indicate that we would like each of our member groups to place their own ads and remove the old "DEM" ad- not advertise both individually, and as the DEM, which I believe may have been an issue in the past.--FT ^MCI 17:37, 9 September 2008 (BST)

Whoops, forgot to make that clear in my prayer for relief, prolly since HardRock removed the DEM ad when he put up his group thing. Yeah, I blame it on HardRock. :D. Thanks, FT. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 18:07, 9 September 2008 (BST)

AH Recruit Page.

The rule states a restriction on "Large Groups with multiple subgroups". Axes High is not, in fact, a subgroup of anyone. We are our own group which recruits, trains, and operates separately from any DEM regulation other than those regarding fair play and participation of multiple characters within the DEM.

If a policy-related exemption is out of the question, then please respect the fact that Axes High was formed outside the DEM and has quite the history as a survivor group in our community, and that we are in an intensive period of reconstruction that necessitates the bringing in of recruits. --Hardcore Rockabilly 03:22, 9 September 2008 (BST)

The above post was moved from my talk page (the user in question following the standard DEM modus operandi by ignoring the established local rules and doing exactly as they please). It was moved here as it broke the aforementioned rules and is relevant to this issue.

Firstly, Atticus. I must be reading your post wrong because I see no compelling reason why we should alter the rule. The crux of your post seems to be that the noble Uprising has problems with you and you want the guidelines here altering so you are less likely to get shot. The notion of 'one stop shopping' draws a fallacious conclusion, any reasonable player should be following the anti-zerging rules and separating their characters' existences. Saying that the ad can be seen to encourage that is not the concern here, if your group image is negatively impacted due to concerns of potential zerging, it is the responsibility of you group to take steps to discourage zergers and not the problem of this page.

Secondly, the person who cannot follow basic page rules. Do not misquote page guidelines at me in order to obfuscate the issue at hand and try to force through your point. If Axes High is a separate entity, why is it listed a member of DEM on the DEM wiki page? If your training is separate from the DEM, why do you send your recruits to the DEM Academy? Simply put, you are demonstratively lying, and thus are the lowest of the low.

Thirdly, the guideline. That guideline is there to prevent large groups swamping this page with every little subgroup and strike team they possess. If we lift this restriction, we'll have 8 DEM ads, 8 RRF, at least 3 MOB, 6 Imperium and God knows how many when a small group realises that they can invent groups to increase the number of clicks they might get. This guideline serves to protect the small group, those who actually need to use this page to gain an extra member here and there. This guideline protects them by not having their ad lost in the confusion of a million subgroup ads all being run by the same person. I am firmly opposed to any change or alteration of this rule for this reason.

Finally, priority. A DEM subgroup ad was removed by myself yesterday under this guideline. The aforementioned idiot is a representative of Axes High. As the group representative for that group, and given the description on the DEM page, I view him as being eligible to remove the main DEM ad, which he did to make space for the Axes High ad. As the guideline currently still stands, provided that ad maintains a valid timestamp and does not fall foul of other guidelines, I will, in my maintenance, view that as the single DEM ad, and delete any others. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 18:14, 9 September 2008 (BST)

Axes High is not a DEM "subgroup", nor is the MPD, nor MFD, nor MCDU, etc. All of those groups existed before the formation of the DEM, were recruited into it, and exist as separate groups. If you intend to indicate that groups which formally share common agreements or goals relinquish their individual group nature and become "subgroups" of the larger organization, then the following groups should have their ads removed or consolidated for the listed reasons:

Blackhawk brigade- members of the Uprising, an organization with shared rules an objectives.
Creedy Guerilla Raiders- members of the PKA, an organization recruiting on this page, and members of the uprising.
The Flowers of Disease- members of the Malton Uprising.
The Imperium of Man- members of the Malton Uprising.
The PKer alliance- easy one, right? The CGR and PKA obviously can't both recruit here under the current rules.

This is if I understand your definition of a subgroup correctly. If you don't feel that these groups need to be removed, please explain why. In any case, please clarify the terms you're using- because it seems an awful lot like somebody just decided that the DEM was one big group with subgroups (in spite of the fact that most DEM groups existed well before the formation of the DEM) and that we therefore shouldn't be allowed to recruit separately (which is really a bit arbitrary).--FT ^MCI 20:06, 9 September 2008 (BST)

Ooooh...is this the part where we get to start arguing with wiki Nazis or something?

@ the DEM: Actually, I can't say I disagree with a lot of what Iscariot says. "If your training is separate from the DEM, why do you send your recruits to the DEM Academy" IS a pretty darn valid question. And you'll note that the series of, "recruit, train, and overall start ACTING more like separate groups" were all a part of even the milder appeal to you folks. Making separate adds is a very good start (and one we support, assuming you ARE actually the alliance you claim to be), but certainly not the end of the story. How the MPD/MFD/MEMS/MFU operate IS very much like a meta-group. I think it's dastardly unfair that Axes High has to suffer for that right now, though. :( And the MCDU, too, in a lot of ways.

Also...you guys keep bringing up the fact that each group once existed separately. I really don't see how this matters. What matters is how they act and operate right now. And right now, there's a lot of justification for considering many of these previously independent groups as mere "subgroups."

@ Iscariot: I don't think its quite fair to equate the DEM with the RRF/MOB/Imperium. I personally think the DEM currently falls somewhere inbetween groups like that, and an alliance like the NMC or SWA or DA or PKA. They're strongly of the opinion that they fall on the "alliance" side of the equation; lots of folks disagree, and think they fall much more on the "group" side of the divide right now.

But assuming (and it's a huge assumption) that the DEM is actually an alliance, and not a group (or that they're at least trying to take strides in that direction, and put a new public face on themselves that reflects that change), what Axes High did was perfectly acceptable. If the SWA had been advertising as a single group, and Tikhon Medical, say, deleted the SWA add, and put in a Tikhon Medical add instead, and said, "in the coming days, the Legion of the Octopope, TMS, and the CAPD will all be putting up separate adds"...I don't see how this would be a problem. The Tikhon Medical member would have the authority to both remove the SWA add, and to add the own add of his particular group. And other SWA members would have the right to then add their adds. Just because a member of an alliance has the authority to remove both an alliance add, and substitute his own, doesn't mean that the alliance and group are one in the same. --Jen 20:39, 9 September 2008 (BST)

I am using shorthand when I use the word subgroup, in order to establish clarity with the guideline "Organizations with significant subgroups". DEM, by its own admission IS an organisation. I would easily make the case that the groups to which you refer are significant subgroups of this organisational structure. Accordingly the one ad rule would apply.

This is not about group sovereignty at all. This is about the specific guideline that organisations with significant subgroups (i.e. groups smaller than itself that do not arbitrarily make policy for all) cannot have more than one ad. Please do not confuse the issue by using weasel words to provoke sympathy or empathy for any example.

Your example of the Malton Uprising is fallacious. As far as I am aware, the Uprising is an event, similar to the Big Bash. Such event are not groups, they are causes. They usually dwindle after about 9 months or after their objective is achieved, whichever is sooner. After this, members 'return' (although they never left) to their own individual groups. As this is the expected outcome, events must be considered separate, provided they do not advertise as a group, in which case group rules would apply.

Your example of the PKA does interest me however. It has been something that has occurred to me over the past few months, the extent of the PKA as a group, alliance, treaty organisation and forum. If you think there is a disparity between the treatment of the PKA and the DEM, please start a new section detailing this (this section being about the potential rule change) and I will ask Secruss to join us and clarify his position. We do not allow favouritism here at all.

--

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 20:57, 9 September 2008 (BST)

Was edit conflicted by Jen when posting the above. Will respond to your points tomorrow Jen sweetie, as well as any other responses formed in the meantime. Also at this point I'd like to point out how pleased I am with the majority of the DEM members in this discourse. Regardless of my personal view of the DEM, their hierarchy and policies, they have not tried to add many adverts to this page and cause an edit war. Instead they have approached the disagreement through discourse. This should happen more often on the wiki in general. --

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:11, 9 September 2008 (BST)

I'm not attempting to confuse the issue, I am asking for clarification and definition. Your definition of "Organization" is ambiguous. The relevant dictionary definitions of "Organization" are:

"the state or manner of being organized." - would apply to the DEM, PKA, and MU. Each serves to bring a disorganized group of groups into an organized state.
"something that is organized." - would apply to the DEM, PKA, and MU.
"organic structure; composition: The organization of this painting is quite remarkable." - the DEM, PKA, and MU each undeniably comprise an organizational structure into which their member groups fit.
"a group of persons organized for some end or work; association: a nonprofit organization." - again, would apply to the DEM, PKA, and MU.
"the functionaries of a political party along with the offices, committees, etc., that they fill." - again, applies to the DEM, PKA, and MU. Each have selected representatives, each have goals and rules of order.

Semantic ambiguity in policy is significant; you're obliged to enforce the policy as written, and we to comply with the policy as written. If it is written using words which have, by the authors, been intended to possess special definitions, those definitions must be provided in order for those expected to comply with the policy to do so. As the word "organization" does not obviously have any special meaning which would allow a strict interpreter to omit the PKA and MU while including the DEM in the scope of the policy, and this seems to be just what you're doing, one can only assume that you have a special definition. When I ask for that definition, I'm not using "weasel words", I'm attempting to discern what the policy means.

The Uprising is a significant example because you seem to have ruled that organizations may have only one ad, even if they are not also recruiting as an organization. Now, the Uprising has, in fact, recruited for "The Uprising" in-game, on forums, and on talk pages and the like on the wiki- but has not done so on this recruitment page. If they would be considered an organization for the purpose of this page if they were recruiting as an organization on this page, why has the DEM been prevented from ceasing to recruit as an organization on this page with the intention of instead allowing member groups to recruit individually? A simple rationale for the exemption of "events" from the recruitment page could be that events don't generally use the recruitment page, instead drawing on the recruitment of participating groups. Certainly, if an event did use the recruitment page, the redundant recruiting would be quite analogous to the outcome of an organization representing itself in double, through an ad for the organization and an ad for the member groups.

The definition that you provide for subgroups- "groups smaller than itself that do not arbitrarily make policy for all" - is not consistent with the nature of DEM member groups in relation to the DEM. The "DEM" technically has no members, although it could be interpreted to have one (the DEM chairperson) or around twenty (the DEM council). In either case, I believe that only two DEM member groups fall short of that membership mark, and the DEM council does not "arbitrarily make policy for all" but instead relies on the votes of member group representatives to reach policies through agreement which may or may not apply to all member groups, without limiting the right of member groups to make policies which do not conflict with those to which they have agreed to as members of the DEM (keeping in mind that their membership in the DEM is not binding, and a group may opt to leave the DEM if they choose to no longer adhere to DEM policies and cannot persuade other member groups to change them through a vote).

Academy participation is discretionary. It's a service, and most (not not all) groups make it a requirement for membership in their group (most of the time; exceptions are often made), but it is not required by the DEM of member groups.

I do think that there is a disparity between the treatment of the DEM and the PKA, and I don't think that your suggestion would actually remove favoritism. As far as I can tell from perusing the archive, the DEM was not given a hearing before the enactment of the policy and subsequent removal decision was made to alter the way in which we are allowed to recruit. Creating a new conversation to discuss the status of the PKA with input from its leadership before determining whether it is subject to this policy would be inconsistent with the treatment of the DEM; if you wish to avoid the appearance of favoritism and maintain the current policy my opinion is that the appropriate course of action would be to remove either the PKA or CGR ad and merely respond to Secruss if he wishes to represent himself after the fact. Of course, I'd be of quite a different mind if I've simply been unable to locate a prior conversation with the DEM about their status. And just to note, I don't think that that would be a desirable outcome, because I disagree with the policy as written, but it would certainly be an equitable outcome.

EDIT: In response to your satisfaction with DEM attitudes (assuming it still holds after my commentray ;) ) I'd actually like to thank you for a conspicuous absence of profanity and general disregard for what we're saying. I hope that my reluctance to accept your suggestion about the PKA doesn't come across as a reluctance to engage in useful discourse; I simply feel that the suggestion is representative of an underlying prejudice.--FT ^MCI 23:28, 9 September 2008 (BST)

(Response to Iscariot, not you FT.) To start off, this might sound like an angry message. Well, it is, but you brought it on yourself by choosing to use as many ad hominem attacks on my peers as you did.

Onto your main "point", Favouritism runs rampant on this wiki. Always has, likely always will. It is shown every time you look at the Spam votes section on the suggestion pages, or even with this suburb group clean up thing, where the MFD was asked >9000 times if we were active in various suburbs despite their own policy being to only ask about 1. They only stopped when I called them out on it on their talk page.

And now you guys are enforcing a policy which seems to deliberately target and penalise larger organizations, under the banner of equality or whatever buzz-word is popular on the wiki nowadays. The DEM isn't a group. Member groups can follow whatever policies they like, they can leave at any time, and anybody can join. Do we work closely together? Yes, we do. Should we be punished for efficiency? That makes no bloody sense whatsoever. You don't need to talk to many DEM members to find out just how different we are, though you may never know because the heavy bias against us keeps a whole lot of us out of public places. (It's better than it used to be but it still ain't great.)

I'd just like to conclude by saying it's a crappy policy written by one of the most anti-DEM survivors I know of, and you just might want to consider revising it, or at least enforcing it for everyone. (Not just us)

Warm regards, Labine50 ^{MEMS | MHG} 00:52, 10 September 2008 (BST)

Care to enlighten me as to who it was written by? - User:Whitehouse 14:15, 10 September 2008 (BST)

Conndraka, here. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 19:19, 10 September 2008 (BST)

I was aware of that Atticus, I was just unsure as to who Labine was suggesting it was. He didn't make it very clear and I was wondering if he believed it to be made by Iscariot. I at least was not aware that Conndraka was anti-DEM. - User:Whitehouse 19:40, 10 September 2008 (BST)

Ah, IC. Can't speak ofr Labine on that one, but I assumed from the context that he was referring to Conn, who could possibly be characterized as anti-DEM based on his participation in the CFT. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 19:50, 10 September 2008 (BST)

Ok, fair enough. Though I wouldn't call him anti-DEM for that. - User:Whitehouse 20:14, 10 September 2008 (BST)

The CFT was a load of bullshit, and I only thought Conn was horribly, horribly mistaken. I started thinking he was anti-DEM when he called us fascist.--Labine50 ^{MEMS | MHG} 23:53, 11 September 2008 (BST)

Actually, Axes High not only recruits separately, operates separately, and coordinates separately, but we train separately as well. At this time, Axes High does not send recruits to the DEM Academy, though this is not reflected on our wiki at the moment, pending discussion and logistical planning of the final method in which cadets are trained.

I think it may be to your benefit to put aside your personal opinions of the DEM and be open to what we are trying to communicate, rather than to assume that what we are saying is an underhanded attempt to further what you imagine would be shady goals of domination, rather than an overall effort within the various DEM groups to make changes which will work to satisfy the concerns of the public that we are not operating in a fair manner. Rather, I urge you to give us the benefit of the doubt, as it were, and give us your constructive advise as we try to find a manner in which we can organize and work that will improve not only the DEM, but the defense of the survivor community.

To address your personal insult to me and the group to which I belong, that was apparently a result of my failure to notice a regulation of which talk page to use, I'll say this; Axes High doesn't disregard the rules of its community, in game or meta game, in fact, we are as community oriented as any local group in Malton. Being as this December will mark the third anniversary of our official residence in Barrville, I think we know as well as anyone how to work with our neighbors rather than against them. ~ --Hardcore Rockabilly 02:19, 10 September 2008 (BST)

This page has gotten so full of responses and counter-responses that I'm really not sure where to put this. So...err...I'll just start a new paragraph.

a) Perhaps there should be a separate section for "organizations" and "events" that want to recruit groups to join them. The DEM, DA, NMC, SWA, PKA, Big Bash, Crusade, Uprising, etc. etc. could all recruit there.

b) The Uprising is an event. We've also used the word "coalition," to try to get across the idea of a "a very temporary alliance full of people who would otherwise be killing one another, working both ingame and out to raise awareness for various issues and create change."

c) As things stand right now, the PKA ad should be removed from the page. --Jen 19:41, 10 September 2008 (BST)

There is (or at least was) a separate section for "organizations" seeking to recruit entire groups. DEM doesn't belong there because we don't recruit groups. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 19:50, 10 September 2008 (BST)

Section no longer exists, think it was removed when we switched to the alphabetical sorting. - User:Whitehouse 20:14, 10 September 2008 (BST)

This is turning into a wall of text, so I'm going to respond to the individual responses and then start a new section concerning the core issues here.

Jen - On the authority of removing ads, I'd allow a member of the RRF War Council to remove the RRF ad and replace it with a TA ad. If the next day another member of the WC added a GC ad, that would be deleted under the large groups rule.

Father Thomas - Let's clear something up, these are not policies these are guidelines, there is a significant difference in the two on this wiki. I had considered developing a policy for this page, but decided against it for reasons like the current discussion. Neither myself or Whitehouse are obliged to do anything. We are not sysops, we are not answerable to anyone, if I removed every ad that was over 14 days old and left one of my groups up even though the timestamp had expired 2 months ago, precisely nothing would happen to me. I cannot be convicted of vandalism or misconduct. We volunteer our time to maintaining this small section of the larger wiki. The conflicts I have with people elsewhere on this wiki do not, however, affect my conduct when dealing with issues with their group. I try to maintain an objective view and look at issues with the page, in regards to this page only.

On the subject of dealing with other perceived large groups differently (this has been brought up by more than one person, it's just you're the first one I'm responding to in the list who made the point), please start a new section on this page detailing the specific group and we'll ask representatives to come here and discuss it. I have no problem with ads being omitted from the page, it gives me less work to do. At the same time I don't think it would be a good idea for members of the DEM to arbitrarily remove ads of other without discussion as this would aggravate the general situation and could lead to edit wars.

You say Academy participation is discretionary. The DEM page clearly states "All new members of any DEM group receives rigorous survival and tactics training at The Academy before receiving their first assignment." Emphasis mine. Which is it? When the group wiki page (editable only by group members as per wiki policy) states one thing and you state another when the point is brought up against a change in guidelines requested by your group, which should we believe? Without meaning offence, why should I believe you? How do I know you and your fellows aren't making things up to press your point?

On the enactment of the original guideline and DEM treatment. I was not maintaining the page at that time, I am at this moment in time. Precedent from my time of beginning to maintain this page shows that multiple DEM ads should be removed and PKA ones shouldn't. As we would be removing the ads of the PKA I think it only fair to them to speak with them first and explain why the course of action might be taking place. Doing this will prevent edit wars etc.

On attitudes. Apart from the one member of Axes High who I dislike due to his continued proven lies, I am very pleased, and after your response continue to be so, with the attitude and manner of the DEM in discussing and attempting to reach consensus here. My personal views do not rate the practices of the DEM any higher than those of Extinction, but the conduct of the members here has certainly encouraged me as to the value of attempting to reach a satisfactory conclusion to this issue.

Labine - I have added extra spaces between your own and Father Thomas' replies as they tended to appear as a single wall of text. I did not attack your peers. I attacked a single member of Axes High who was demonstratively lying. If you choose to consider him a peer, that is your choice and not mine.

On favouritism. What happens elsewhere on this wiki is not my concern (for your information I am a big user and advocate of the Spam vote), however here I am trying to maintain a level playing field. I am not trying to penalise any large organisation, one of my concerns is that smaller groups might be swamped, but I am in no way trying to penalise anyone. The guideline that the DEM are only allowed one ad between them is clear. I have enforced it in the past with other groups not mentioned on the guideline such as The Imperium and would do if the RRF tried to use multiple ads.

Your notion that the guideline was written by an anti-DEM user with the implication that it was there to soley attack you does not wash with me at all. Conndraka wrote the guideline, and you'll notice he put his own group, the DHPD in there. It is reasonable to assume therefore that the guideline was written in good faith using groups he was familiar with as examples.

Axes High Moron - Still darkening my door I see. You say Axes High recruits separately, last week it was in the DEM advert with the others. Another lie. You speak of "defense of the survivor community", have you even read the links in my signature? Do you really think I care about the defence of the survivor community? You say "failure to notice a regulation of which talk page to use" again you show you inability to read what is written. Not which talk page, only the way in which to respond. The fact that you failed to comply casts doubt on your eloquent propaganda about Axes High getting on with their neighbours and respecting local rules. QED.

Everybody - I'm now going to create a separate section to discuss the two major points that I feel are the crux of this issue. Please keep discussion regarding this section in here, and discussion of the points in the new section. Thank you. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 22:28, 10 September 2008 (BST)

The Crux

I think there are two main points to this:

1. Remove the rule and allow the DEM, DHPD et al to have multiple ads

2. Enforce the rule on those other groups perceived to hold an equal status with DEM and DHPD

Regarding point 1. My major concern is the saturation of the page by large groups, the maths means that small groups would be swamped under the many ads of large groups. Also, if the rule is altered and the DEM in its current form have many ads, what is to stop any small group declaring that they have multiple groups (and therefore deserve many ads) and flooding the page to increase their exposure? Absolutely nothing. It would have to come down to a subjective judgement call, something I'm not happy even contemplating for any page I maintain.

Regarding point 2. The DEM is specifically mentioned in the guideline, that is why they are limited the way they are. If there was a move to designate others in the same category for the guideline I would be wanting the matter discussing with the groups in question to avoid edit wars.

-- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 22:28, 10 September 2008 (BST)

Regarding point 2. The guideline includes the DHPD because of an analogy Conn had made to the effect that if each DEM group were to be allowed its own recruitment ad, by extension each of DHPD's precincts and squads should be allowed their own ads as well. Don't get me wrong: I loves me some DHPD, had an alt there for a year and they're a great bunch of folks. But the analogy is completely wrong-headed. A correct analogy would be to say that MPD shouldn't be able to run separate ads for its suburb and/or district crews unless DHPD could run ads for its squads and precincts.

Most of DHPD's squads, at least when I was in the group (back when the total number of group members was higher than it is now), had between four and seven members; most precincts even lower. On the other hand, the MPD is one of the largest survivor groups in Malton by itself, with upwards of 90 members last time I checked. Even its so-called "sub-group", the MFU, has been over 40 members consistently for over a year.
Additionally, half of our member groups began life as independent groups that later joined the DEM. DHPD can't say the same about any of its squads or precincts.

At the time the editorial fiat was imposed, one of our members pointed out the hypocrisy of enforcing such a quideline against only us, while the Big Bash was allowed to recruit as such while its member groups' ads remained unmolested. So down the line, a special "events" category was created, allowing recruiting on both the group and organization levels -- in other words, allowing multi-group organizations everything the DEM groups had been denied, plus an ad for the organization as well. Granted, such "events" are generally not intended to be permanent structures; in the absence of a set expiration time, though, what is to stop such an "event" from continuing in perpetuity?

Back to point 1. I can certainly understand a concern over adding eight more ads, especially owing to the way the recruitment page has thinned out. On the other hand, seven of those groups' ads are going to be lumped together in the "M"s. They'll own the "M"s. The rest of the page will be largely unaffected. IMO, the slippery slope of a raft of tiny groups declaring themselves to be coalitions or confederations or whatever DEM's regarded as this week is unlikely to occur, if for no other reason than the fact that, as I said before, most of those potential groupspawn didn't begin life as independent groups as the MPD, MFD, MCDU, and Axes High did.

Thank you for your willingness to discuss this matter rationally. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 04:44, 11 September 2008 (BST)

Thanks for making the statement about DHPD squads, it's been on my mind ever since this discussion started but I really had a hard time finding out how to phrase it and I wasn't sure if I was 100% right. I don't know that much about the DHPD, but I did feel that it was one group and not an alliance like DEM and PKA. As I've stated earlier; I would have no problem with each group (and I mean whether in an alliance or not) being allowed to have one ad of their own. This would of course forfeit the right to an alliance ad unless we get a section for recruiting entire groups which is hardly relevant to you at the current time as you don't recruit groups.

The point about occupying the "M" section, while good to prove you won't swamp the entire ad page, might be frowned upon by other "M" groups. And you have to remember that if this goes through, we have to allow the Imperium the same rights. Same for any other alliances that are being limited by the current rules (not that any spring to mind). All in all this will see an increase of about 15 or so groups (DEM ads + Imperium ads). And I can live with that, it just makes the page a bit longer for the editors. I just hope this won't harm the smaller groups. But as long as you advertise based on the merit of your individual groups rather than stressing the alliance it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Anyhow, procedure for successfully changing the rules is pretty much everyone agrees or no one disagrees. Waiting on the next wave of "For/Against". - User:Whitehouse 13:32, 11 September 2008 (BST)

Re: Your first paragraph, we really don't mind losing the advertisement for the "DEM". Frankly I don't know why we had one in the first place.--Labine50 ^{MEMS | MHG} 23:53, 11 September 2008 (BST)

A question about procedure- well, two really. One, how long do we have to wait, and who all is involved in the decision? Two- since this is a guideline, as was stated when making the point that Iscariot didn't have any particular obligations of enforcement, wouldn't it technically be well within the scope of existing rules for us to just do what we want with our ads? That is to say- if it's not a rule, breaking it isn't technically vandalism, is it?--FT ^MCI 19:24, 13 September 2008 (BST)

Somehow I don't think logic will work here, FT.--Labine50 ^{MEMS | MHG} 20:17, 13 September 2008 (BST)

Procedure: Convince naysayers that it's a good change, hold a poll. I'd set a poll for about a week or something, leave a big message at the top of the Recruitment page asking for attention. Then wait for results. No one is officially in charge of this page. Me and Iscariot simply do our best to keep it up to date.

Vandalism: I can't answer for Iscariot when it comes to this, so the following is how I see vandalism when it comes to the recruitment page. The list at the top of the page is a set of guidelines, agreed upon guidelines. Now you may disagree with the guidelines, but they have been established so that this page is as manageable and as useful as possible. The good thing about them being guidelines is not that they can be ignored, trust me they can't really be ignored (that would defeat their purpose) for anything more than minor cases, the good thing is they are easier to change than policy. If you begin to ignore the guidelines, I will ask you to desist in the interest of the "well being" of this page. If you refuse to desist after several warnings about this I will take you to vandal banning on grounds of bad faith.

A final note about our obligation and the right to do things. True, no one is under obligation to enforce the guidelines, but we do it all the same because we want to, we are however under obligation not to sabotage this page (or any part of the wiki), as is everyone who uses this wiki. - User:Whitehouse 20:36, 13 September 2008 (BST)

Oh, Golly- I wasn't saying that I was going to just tell people to do whatever the heck they felt like! I agree that guidelines are important; however, Iscariot argued that because they were only guidelines, not policies, you guys could enforce them or not enforce them in any way you pleased and weren't accountable for anything. He specifically stated that nothing could happen as a result of that, and that you weren't accountable for it. The guideline specifically names the DEM, but under the false premise that it's a "large group." It'd be like saying "planets, such as the moon, should be given their own sections involving the solar system." If somebody didn't give the moon its own section, they would technically be violating the word of the guideline, which specifically mentioned the moon, but still be in compliance with the intention- to give planets their own sections. IMO, that's not bad faith. But certainly, changing the guideline would be a far cry better than getting into an edit war over it!

A poll it is, then? Alright, thanks. I'll likely post one soon.--FT ^MCI 20:15, 15 September 2008 (BST)

Sorry all, been caught up with real life. Will try and respond to all the points in the next few days. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:41, 13 September 2008 (BST)

Apologies all, real life has been distracting. Now I've got a spare hour let's see if I can respond to some of the points made.

Atticus - We can disagree on analogies all day, personally I'm inclined to agree with Conndraka's reasoning. If we did change this there would be nothing to stop groups from declaring their strike teams to be 'separate groups' or even 'conceiving' them outside their group before bringing them into the fold to take advantage of this precedent. As this would mean Whitehouse and myself would be forced to make judgment calls on each and every ad posted on that page. This would move us from maintaining the page to actively moderating it and making arbitrary decisions on other groups. This will increase drama/hostility on this page and decrease participation by the community, something I'm looking to avoid.

I was not maintaining the page when the First Bash was around, but I was involved in the planning of BB2 and now maintain this page. I would be loathe to allow 'Event' ads on this page on the simple principle of the fact that this is a page for group recruitment. However I categorically disagree with your notion that events such as the Bash or the Uprising are in anyway comparable to the structure, form and outlook of the DEM. The DEM was never designed to end, events by their nature have two simple end conditions, they achieve their aims (see The Invasion of Gibsonton) or the effort outweighs the fun (see The Second Big Bash). DEM is by definition a categorically different entity.

The fact that the majority of the ads would be in the 'M' section does not alter the fact that it will saturate the page with ads from one organisational construct. The simple fact is it adds 7 ads, pushing down the ads of other groups, take St. Ferreol's Hospital Noise Abatement Society for instance, your additions will push their add down and simultaneously reduce the chance that a casual reader will even bother continuing to the bottom and read their ad. The fact that the response of the DEM is that the majority of the ads will be in a single section demonstrates a lack of concern for the well being of other small groups and the wiki community.

Your notion of 'groupspawn' is indeed a valid concern, and not one I'd be so quick to dismiss. Let us remember that the DEM has previously influenced groups to perform questionable actions based on their own precedent of rules interpretation. Ever wonder where Extinction got the idea of the Extinction Alliance from?

Also, there is the point that regardless of DEM terminology, those 'groups' could be considered 'strike teams' as there is no precedent (unless you'd care to educate me otherwise) of a 'group' leaving DEM and remaining successful. In fact I can only think of one group that has had a strike team leave and become successful, surely this should mean that all of that group's teams should be afforded the same status as DEM's 'groups'? By doing that we add DEM's seven ads and add another six for this group. Thirteen ads before we consider The Imperium, that's an increase of close to 50%.

Father Thomas - The length of this discussion is based on the principle of wiki consensus. It will take as long as it takes for a consensus to be established. My point on enforcement and guidelines was clear. I could not be punished or reprimanded for the example I gave (removing ads over 14 days whilst leaving my own group ad that was months old), however if I went against the guidelines (removing an ad with a valid timestamp that had no other guideline breaking attributes) or established wiki policy and precedent then I could be taken to Vandalism. Precedent on Vandal Banning has shown that the breaking of established guidelines on major community pages leads to a ruling of vandalism. The way to go around effecting change is to discuss the matter on the talk page, as you have done.

The guideline does not falsely call DEM as a large group. The actual guideline in question is "Large Groups or Organizations with significant subgroups are limited to one ad.", emphasis mine. The DEM wiki page clearly states "The DEM is not a group itself, but rather an organizational construct", again, emphasis mine. The DEM call and conduct themselves as an organisational structure. The guideline clearly prohibits organisational structures from having more than one ad. I do not see how this guideline is falsely calling the DEM a large group.

A note on the rest of the discussion - consensus in a wiki format is not a popular vote. Posting a poll does not achieve consensus, it achieves inappropriate canvassing, block voting, forum shopping and 'kitten piling'.

The members of the DEM who have responded here (again with thanks from me for engaging the discussion and not causing this to degenerate to bad faith edits or edit wars) seem to be responding to my first point with "Well I hope not", that to me is not a valid reasoning given the spirit behind the guideline being made in the first place. The second point I made has not really been engaged at all in the section so I am unable to speculate on the DEM's position, however the lack of focus on this leads me to assume that the DEM are unconcerned with designating others as large groups or organisations and more with increasing their own profile. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 11:17, 18 September 2008 (BST)

Iscariot, I just thought of something. All previous discussion of rule changes have had a message left highly visible on the recruitment page pointing to the talk section explaining what is going on and that their opinion would be valued. As of this time it is mainly you and me and the DEM talking, with a contribution from Jen. As this affects the whole page we should be seeking the opinion of others before we attempt to make anything final. Preferably we need a definite worded change that the DEM want implemented, then people can give opinions and eventually we will need to sum it all up somehow. Which is why we might need a poll of some sort, although I do see why you do not want to hold one. We'd need to find a way to stop people shopping for votes on various forums as that would definitely not leave any smaller groups voice heard at all. Slightly ironic suggestion: Allow each group using the recruitment page one vote each... but is the DEM one or several groups (no offence to the DEM). :P - User:Whitehouse 12:30, 18 September 2008 (BST)

I'd be happy with an ad/notice directing peoples' attention to this discussion. I feel it would be best to place a note both on the main recruitment page, and the wiki news section as this would give the entire community the opportunity to give their opinion and this would satisfy consensus. I'd be against the idea of reducing the consensus to just groups on the ad page at a arbitrary time, as this would be inherently unfair to the DEM. If we do limit to regular users of the Recruitment page (say in the last X months or whatever) I think it'd be best to assign one vote per user, as otherwise it could endow people with block voting power if they regularly maintain more than one ad.

Of course this would all depend on having a defined alteration to hand for consideration by the community. We could hash it out here before taking it to the community. DEM members, it's your proposal, would you care to put your heads together, find something acceptable between yourselves and bring it here for initial checking? --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 23:07, 19 September 2008 (BST)

Hehe, I was not 100% serious about giving votes per group. And we have a problem with the regular user voting idea. We can't confirm it very easily. Histories were wiped by Kevan recently. Which means we can only go so far back via the recruitment page history, what we can do however, is check user contributions. I'm still hoping for a better idea though. - User:Whitehouse 23:27, 19 September 2008 (BST)

Are you suggesting that the member groups of the Dulston Alliance and the SWA (and the PKA, for that matter) shouldn't be allowed to recruit separately, either? The DEM's argument in all this is that they're an alliance/organization like those groups, not a group like the Imperium or RRF or DHPD.

And the PKA add should be removed...I don't understand how it got up there in the first place. If you're going to enforce the "one add per larger organization - no individual adds" thing across the board, you're going to have an outcry from all the small PKer groups, at the very least. --Jen 01:46, 19 September 2008 (BST)

Excuse me, but can I take a moment to point out that this has been incredibly blown out of proportion? I'm going to try to make a short argument here to give people a break from all the TL;DR above.

This page has a policy that penalises efficiency, and we're all going to need that when the number of people playing this game is getting as low as it is. Say whatever you like, but allowing organizations only one ad is ludicrous. Iscariot, Whitehouse, whoever else is involved... You shouldn't be afraid of changing policies that are old and outdated. Regards, AFC Labine50 ^{MEMS | MHG} 05:54, 20 September 2008 (BST)

This page has no policies. If you'd have taken the courtesy to read what others have written then you'd know this. It is your opinion that the page "penalises efficiency", I think the guideline in question actually increases efficiency, and personally I'd use a lot of adjectives to describe DEM, efficient is not one of them. --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 01:12, 21 September 2008 (BST)

I disagree. Large, well-organised groups get mentioned in suburb news, there's various horde-tracking threads in the meta, and they have enough people to go tagging/speaking ingame if they want to do a recruitment drive. Their profiles are high enough. I don't think they need adverts here for every chapter/platoon/strike force, and it will swamp the page. I've been trying to start a group, and it's difficult. I'd rather my ad on this page was one of 20 not one of 75 - and no-one has addressed Iscariot's point that people could just designate an arbitrary number of subgroups solely to put more ads up here. Can I call my sole henchman the 'Strike Unit' and put another ad up? Billy Forks 08:18, 20 September 2008 (BST) (founder, St. Ferreol's Hospital Noise Abatement Society)

Has everyone missed the fact that DEM's main argument, in all this, is that they're an alliance? Not a group? One can debate whether or not they actually ARE an alliance...but are you folks seriously suggesting that any alliance should be restricted to one joint add?

I agree 100% that small groups get the short end of the stick in a lot of ways, and need more advocacy all around. But is the wiki recruitment page the right place to try to fix that? If a large and established group wants to advertise, aren't they as much within their right to advertise as a new group? If the recruitment page is intended primarily to raise awareness for newer and smaller groups, and groups just getting their feet under themselves...maybe y'all should revise the page to make that clearer. And just flat-out discourage any group of 30+ members from recruiting here. --Jen 09:39, 20 September 2008 (BST)

The guideline as stands is clear that large groups and alliances should be allowed only one ad. DEM and DHPD are specifically named. The guideline has been enforced by myself previously on non-mentioned groups, namely The Imperium. If you are suggesting, as has been the slant on this side of the discussion, that there are other groups that should have their ad removed then a new section should be started to discuss and debate this as this is a separate issue to altering a current guideline. However, since I brought up the two distinct issues in this case, the DEM representatives have be persistent in going down the 'change the guideline' route. --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 01:12, 21 September 2008 (BST)

In your last two comments you have insulted me, my group, the coalition/alliance/organization/whatever the hell you want to call it that my group is in, and dodged every damned point that has been made. I think we all realise that the guideline as it stands calls out the DHPD and DEM, I think that was established a year or two ago. Right now what I am saying is that the guideline (And sorry for saying policy. You really are anal about specific wording, you know that?) should be changed, yet you seem to be clinging desperately to the biased pile of crap.--Labine50 ^{MEMS | MHG} 21:10, 21 September 2008 (BST)

Suggestion for change

Current rule:

Large Groups or Organizations with significant subgroups are limited to one ad. This includes groups such as the DHPD and the Department of Emergency Management, they may use their ad to direct players to the separate sub-groups.

Suggested:

Groups are allowed one advert each. Subgroups are not allowed individual ads, this does not include or limit member groups of alliances.

That is what the DEM want as far as I can tell. Want to know what my problem is? What stops the DHPD (DHPD is used purely as an example and I mean no offence) from declaring they are an alliance and not a group with multiple subgroups. I'll tell you what, nothing. But we can make it more difficult for people who would try to circumvent the rules. We can implement a definition of a subgroup and an individual group along with the guideline change.

What is a subgroup? A group that has no individual name, no individual wiki page, and doesn't appear on the stats page.

Change your group name, make your own separate wiki page, and change your groupbox in game to circumvent the rule? You just made yourself an individual group. Congrats.

Does this sound workable? Am I really just way too tired? Comments please, I want to see an end of this pretty soon. I did have one other idea, it was that alliances put a header (example "DEM - Survivor Alliance") under the relevant alphabetical character (D in the case of the DEM) and have all their member groups ads beneath that. Anyhow, comments. - User:Whitehouse 22:29, 21 September 2008 (BST)

Of course I would prefer to see the suggested change enacted. Our member groups, except MCI which is considered a subgroup of MCDU, have met the "not-subgroup" criteria you mention and have done for years now. OTOH, if what we end up with is your second suggestion -- a "DEM - Alliance" heading with member groups' ads below it, each with a level n-1 heading -- I think that's workable although it may not satisfy all of the folks whose complaint about our recruitment ad led to this conversation in the first place. Thanks, Whitehouse. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 00:27, 22 September 2008 (BST)

The next step has to be a poll. Unless someone has another good way of deciding. Our discussions will yield nothing at this point as there will always be nay-sayers. And because if we were to wait until everyone agreed.. well we'd be here for a long time if we did. So, either someone comes up with a really good suggestion for decision making, or I put up a poll within the next few days. This can not be allowed to go on forever, because it's just delaying the inevitable which is that it goes one way or the other. - User:Whitehouse 20:47, 22 September 2008 (BST)

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