Developing Suggestions

Developing Suggestions

This section is for presenting and reviewing suggestions which have not yet been submitted and are still being worked on.

Nothing on this page will be archived.

Further Discussion

• Discussion concerning this page takes place here.
• Discussion concerning the suggestions system in general, including policies about it, takes place here.

Please Read Before Posting

• Be sure to check The Frequently Suggested List and the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots before you post your idea. You can read about many ideas that have been suggested already, which users should be aware of before posting what could be a dupe: a duplicate of an existing suggestion. These include Machine Guns and Sniper Rifles.
• Users should be aware that page is discussion oriented. Other users are free to express their own point of view and are not required to be neutral.
• If you decide not to take your suggestion to voting, please remove it from this page to avoid clutter.
• It is recommended that users spend some time familiarizing themselves with this page before posting their own suggestions.
• After new game updates, users are requested to allow time for the game and community to adjust to these changes before suggesting alterations.

How To Make a Suggestion

Adding a New Suggestion

• Copy the code in the box below.
• Click here to begin editing. This is the same as clicking the [edit] link to the right of the Suggestions header.

• Paste the copied text above the other suggestions, right under the heading.
• Substitute the text in RED CAPITALS with the details of your suggestion.

{{subst:DevelopingSuggestion
|time=~~~~
|name=SUGGESTION NAME
|type=TYPE HERE
|scope=SCOPE HERE
|description=DESCRIPTION HERE
}}

• Name - Give the suggestion a short but descriptive name.
• Type is the nature of the suggestion, such as a new class, skill change, balance change, etc. Basically: What is it? and Is it new, or a change?
• Scope is who or what the suggestion affects. Typically survivors or zombies (or both), but occasionally Malton, the game interface or something else.
• Description should be a full explanation of your suggestion. Include information like flavor text, search odds, hit percentages, etc, as appropriate. Unless you are as yet unsure of the exact details behind the suggestion, try not to leave out anything important. Check your spelling and grammar.

Cycling Suggestions

• Suggestions with no new discussion in the past two days should be given a warning notice. This can be done by adding {{SDW|date}} at the top of the discussion section, where date is the day the suggestion will be removed.
• Suggestions with no new discussion in the past week may be removed.
• If you are adding a comment to a suggestion that has the warning template please remove the {{SDW|date}} at the top of the discussion section to show that there is still ongoing discussion.

This page is prone to breaking when the page gets too long, so sometimes suggestions still under discussion will be moved to the Overflow page, so the discussion can continue.

Please add new suggestions to the top of the list

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Suggestions

Bikers Store

Timestamp: M arcusF ilby T 00:23, 6 October 2009 (BST)

Type: Unique Location

Scope: Everyone

Description: The Bikers' Store would be an addition to one of the malls - Pole or Blesley, preferably - carrying a variety of fashions common to motorcyclists of various stripes - rice rocket racers, touring/club bikers, western-style bikers, vet/army surplus riders, motocross racers, etc. Not as familiar with the European riding scene as the American one, so if there's something I'm neglecting please offer your insight. Face a pair of aviator's goggles a pair of wraparound sunglasses Head a <colour> full-face motorcycle helmet a <colour> open-face motorcycle helmet a <colour> German motorcycle helmet a <colour> ATV motorcycle helmet a <colour> bandanna1 a <colour> cowboy hat a <colour> khepi hat2 a <colour> beret3 a horned Viking helmet Neck a <colour> bandanna1 a studded leather collar Shirt a <colour> T-shirt4 a sleeveless <colour> army surplus shirt4 Jacket a <colour> leather jacket6 a leather club jacket a <colour> leather racing jacket a <colour> army surplus jacket a <colour> padded leather jacket a camouflage jacket Coat a <colour> duster5 a bright yellow rain slicker Trousers a pair of <colour> chaps over jeans a pair of <colour> leather pants6 a pair of camouflage trousers Boots a pair of <colour> leather boots6 a pair of steel toe-capped boots a pair of studded leather boots in existing colours plus plaid, skull-print, iron cross, and pirate. limited to blue, gray or khaki. limited to red, green, black and blue. in existing colours plus black skull, flaming skull, iron cross, pirate, Bule, Hurley Davidsen, Triton, Triamfe, and Docuti. limited to black, brown, olive or khaki. leather clothes are limited to black, brown and red.

Discussion (Bikers Store)

Why a store? You can add it as a clothes suggestion.--Orange Talk 00:49, 6 October 2009 (BST)

While talking it over with a pal, one idea became several on a theme... seemed to be more tidy to roll them up into one suggestion than 16 or so separate ones. Less spam on the suggestion page, anyway. BTW, random aside - love the nav template code on your userpage. Inspired. :) - M arcusF ilby ^T 02:01, 6 October 2009 (BST)

Your missing the point. This is a clothing suggestion. Unless said location contained actual items, that's all it is.--Pesatyel 06:14, 6 October 2009 (BST)

Alright - debate over what type of suggestion this is aside for the time being, anyone have any suggestions as to its substance? - M arcusF ilby ^T 17:59, 6 October 2009 (BST)

Surely this is suggesting a unique location? Like the Goth Store? Rather than simply a clothing suggestion? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:09, 6 October 2009 (BST)

The store would only have clothing, hence it being a clothing suggestion. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 00:01, 7 October 2009 (BST)

I still think stores are votes under the main system. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 09:38, 7 October 2009 (BST)

That store had non-clothes items in it; whatever, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:09, 7 October 2009 (BST)

I like this, I see nothing wrong with adding a unique shop to every mall, it makes them unique. Although I would prefer it to be in Calvert Mall so you would have to journey away from where you currently are if you want the clothing (assuming you're near the malls you suggested) like every one else :-). Also, remove the military (camouflage/army surplus) clothes, military clothing can be found at the forts and gives people a reason to go to them as well as adding to their rarity. --Kamikazie-Bunny 14:38, 7 October 2009 (BST)

Make it a unique location and drop it in Calvert. That mall badly needs some love when it stands for more than 5 days. --Papa Johnny 17:36, 7 October 2009 (BST)

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Screwing with Generators!

Timestamp: Cookies and Cream 12:52, 4 October 2009 (BST)

Type: Multiple

Scope: Everyone

Description: This is a multiple part sugestion. Part 1: Different buildings have different Generator lasting times. I suggest: Offices 100 Hours; Necrotechs 60 hours; Hospitals 60 hours; Motels 100 hours; Schools 80 hours; Malls 40 hours; Forts 50 hours. If I have missed any, or you want different times, place in discussion. Part 2: When the Generator gets on low fuel, the lights should dim and be less powerful, therefore reducing Search Rates and. Standing outside a Dim building would be: You can see dim lights flickering in the building. Inside would be: The lights are dim. If you dont like it, FLAME IT!

Discussion (Screwing with Generators!)

I don't like the different fuel times, but I do like the idea of additional flavour text. Having the "dim lights" stuff when the generator is running low on fuel would be a nice touch. 13:18, 4 October 2009 (BST)

I agree with the above mentioned gentleman. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 13:25, 4 October 2009 (BST)

Great idea. Not so keen on the suggestion listed here, but Misanthropy's idea sounds like it'd be a quality change (I think this is the third time I've agreed with him in the last 48 hours...). —Aichon— 14:00, 4 October 2009 (BST)

Ditto to that; lower search rates are dumb, but more flavor and a bit of info sounds fine to me. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:25, 4 October 2009 (BST)

I think the argument is presuming that said buildings have everything running which they probably would not. Well, Necrotech buildings and hospitals maybe. But the people in the buildings would be minimal energy I'd imagine so "in game" that can be easy to explain why a generator has the same fuel span in all buildings. Other than that and, as others said, the "dim lights" part isn't bad.--Pesatyel 20:24, 4 October 2009 (BST)

There wouldn't be any machinery or special equipment that would justify the change in fuel times. Except possibly hospitals, due to the Surgery skill, and NTs, due to Syringe Manufacture. But the dim lights sounds great, but what kind of reduced search rates are you thinking of? As flavour text, it'd be a great addition, but reducing search rates may have opposition. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}20:31, 4 October 2009 (BST)

The differing fuel times doesn't really work considering that all the generators in Malton are portable generators that people have picked up from a mall or a factory, and presumably pretty standard. So the time doesn't really make sense. I definitely love the dim lights flavour text, though as said above the reduced search rates might be hard to pass. Personally, I wouldn't mind. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 09:52, 5 October 2009 (BST)

This would be an annoying game change and it doesn't even reflect the way generators work. A generator doesn't work like a battery, which has an amount of stored energy that depletes based on how much power you draw from it. Quite the opposite. A generator creates a steady supply of power until the fuel runs out. There wouldn't be different fuel times based on what's hooked up to the generator, because the fuel burns at the same rate and outputs the same amount of power either way.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 12:17, 5 October 2009 (BST)

This is silly and unnessesary. This would just hinder us. - ginger

I was thinking it would just be a 5% change in search rates for Dim lights. In response, to Giles "generator creates a steady supply of power until the fuel runs out idea, it's totally realistic that I can jump between building while carrying a generator, toolbox and 6 shotguns. or that, when approached by zombies wanting my flesh, that i will constantly be able to aim at the head, and that a Flak jacket even protects their head. Cookies and Cream 03:44, 6 October 2009 (BST)

What do your examples have to do with his? Even I gave a better argument against this suggestion. It isn't a battery that is strained for power in certain building requiring more than in others (NTs) and survivors, logically, would shut down all "non essential" parts of the building to conserve power meaning buildings that would "use more power" WOULDN'T be using it for that reason.--Pesatyel 07:43, 6 October 2009 (BST)

Meh, I can't be bothered to respond to my fail :). Anyway, what did you think of the 5% drop for Dim lights? Cookies and Cream 10:45, 6 October 2009 (BST)

Sorakairi and Pesatyel, you're not understanding a basic concept. You can't conserve generator power by unplugging things. The rate of fuel consumption is constant. This is like explaining the airplane-treadmill debate to someone who doesn't grasp that airflow over a wing provides lift.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 15:36, 6 October 2009 (BST)

I am understanding the argument. I was explaining other possible arguments in order to explain that THAT part of the suggestion is useless.--Pesatyel 02:22, 7 October 2009 (BST)

The lower search odds are just a bad idea in general. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 03:31, 7 October 2009 (BST)

Dim lights being visible from neighboring blocks (or even just outside) are a fairly significant boost to survivor information. If you're carrying a fuel can, you will be told where there is a need for it without having to go into the building -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 10:13 7 October 2009 (BST)

I liked part 2 so long as it would be visible from outside of the building and in adjacent buildings especially with a slightly lower find rate (like 10% reduction maximum). Part 1 sucks, keep the running time for gennies constant across all buildings. Make part 2 much more specific (how long until the lights dim, how much search rates would be reduced, what a dimly lit building would look like, etc.). --Papa Johnny 17:39, 7 October 2009 (BST)

Seeing "dim lights" outside a building is fine, but Boxy is right when he says that changing the minimap just gives away too much information. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:10, 7 October 2009 (BST)

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Remember last item dropped

Timestamp: ♥ Moonie Talk Testimonials 22:10, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Type: Interface

Scope: Everyone

Description: When dropping an item you have multiple of instead of the drop menu drop down box defaulting back to ------ nothing on page load it keeps the same item you just dropped in focus (like attacking). e.g. you drop a pistol (0) then upon the next page load where it says you have dropped your pistol pistol(0) is selected in the drop down drop menu. May be a dupe i didn't bother checking.

Discussion (Remember last item dropped)

I... think I followed what you were trying to get at. Seems rather unnecessary. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 22:55, 3 October 2009 (BST)

I'm trying to make sure I have this right. You mean, if you want to drop multiple items of the same type, after dropping the first, the next one of the same type is automatically pre-selected in the drop-down menu when the page loads to show you've dropped the item? If so, it seems nice in theory, but with differently-loaded pistols I can see it being a mess - unless it's accompanied by a function which sorts your guns in the menu from lowest-load to highest-load. 23:02, 3 October 2009 (BST)

There are some edge cases that could use addressing, as Misanthropy pointed out, but on the whole, I really like the idea. If you overstocked on syringes or FAKs (not sure why/how you would, but let's just say) it'd be a pain to remove them individually. This would make it that much easier. As for guns, my suggestion would be to select the one with the least remaining ammo, given the choice of multiple guns to choose from. —Aichon— 01:19, 4 October 2009 (BST)

That is, basically, how it used to be BEFORE Kevan added the null item (the ------). People complained about accidentally dropping something they didn't want to drop. So, yeah, this suggestion isn't going to make it as the point is to improve the game, not return it to a worse state.--Pesatyel 20:05, 4 October 2009 (BST)

This is a dupe, got suggested after Kevan put item codes in. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 07:40, 5 October 2009 (BST)

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Flak Jacket Nerf

Timestamp: Kamikazie-Bunny 18:06, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Type: Balance/Flavour

Scope: All Players

Description: Inspired by the suggestion discussion below, anthropometrics, mechwarrior and probability and statistics. Currently: Flak Jacket Grants a 20 percent damage reduction against attacks that deal 5 damage or more. Proposed Change: Body Armour Has an 80% chance to grants a 20 percent damage reduction against attacks that deal 5 damage or more. If a kill shot occurs (even when the body armour has an effect) the effects of body armour are automatically ignored. Effects: No more players wearing body armour on their heads. You can still cause maximum damage to a player by hitting an extremity/ weak point e.g. arm, leg or head. Although body armour increases survivability flesh rot is now more appealing to zombies (and more effective). Body armour covers a range of defences including flak jackets/bullet-proof jackets/plate mail... Considered increasing the % to 90 but looking for input first.

Discussion (Flak Jacket Nerf)

Oh dear. *runs away from flame war John Ibans 18:16, 3 October 2009 (BST)

I'm going to raise two obvious points here:

1. Nerfs Flack Jackets
2. Why?

Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:23, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Actually it doesn't nerf anything. It doesn't DO anything.--Pesatyel 18:28, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Yes it does, it basically makes FJs only have a 60% chance to work. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:41, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Oops, my bad. CNR. I was looking at his kill shot thing not the fact he reduced it from 80 to 60. I'm just curious what makes him thing ANYONE would go for this.--Pesatyel 18:51, 3 October 2009 (BST)

From 100 to 60.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 18:55, 3 October 2009 (BST)

You DO realize what your suggesting is pointless, right? Think about it. You said KILL SHOT. Let's say you have 8 HP and a flak jacket. If I hit you with a shotgun, you die and I earn 20 XP. First, the remaining 2 HP "lost" to the flak jacket are irrelevant as you are STILL DEAD and you can't be at "negative HP" as, when you stand up you will be at full. Second, I earn XP on the damage of the weapon, NOT the damage sustained by the target.--Pesatyel 18:28, 3 October 2009 (BST)

That part of the suggestion is to clear this up "You fire at the zombie for 10 damage. Their flak jacket absorbs 2 points of damage. They take a Headshot and die." --Kamikazie-Bunny 15:08, 7 October 2009 (BST)

Everybody is going to vote kill on this. It completely kills the flak jacket, for no real reason. Suggestion:20081105_Flak_Jacket_Update - 18:35 3 October 2009 (BST)

Suggestion:20070902 Flak Jacket Change Raises similar issues, and with Flesh Rot becoming more common, the people this most hurts are dual natured players and those trying to avoid PK'ing. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:40, 3 October 2009 (BST)

So, if I'm to understand the "issue" correctly, some flavor text suggests that people wear Flak Jackets on their heads, so we should change the mechanics of Flak Jackets to make Flesh Rot more appealing to zombies? Sounds like a logical fallacy to me. I don't have a problem with making Flesh Rot more appealing, but this isn't the proper way to do it, and no other valid reason is proposed here for nerfing Flak Jackets. —Aichon— 18:47, 3 October 2009 (BST)

See My Previous Flak Jacket Update for what I would consider a better way of doing that. Most zombies don't want the Flak Jacket to be nerfed because it means that the have to buy Flesh Rot for better protection and then they feel forced to play as a zombie, survivors feel they are more likely to become victims of PKers (even though it works against PKers as well); in 90% of fights it's a case of who attacked first regardless of having a jacket, with the FJ it just means they need to use more AP. --Kamikazie-Bunny 15:08, 7 October 2009 (BST)

Yeah, I'd be opposed to this. It's an unnecessary change that won't make a big enough difference to be worth the hassle, the coding and the added random factor. 18:59, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Ditto what Misanthropy and Aichon said. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 19:13, 3 October 2009 (BST)

I like this, for the simple reason that people seem to think that flak jackets are worthwhile in the first place. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 07:42, 5 October 2009 (BST)

It's actually not a bad idea and it would make flesh rot more interesting. But I'd say the flak jacket would have to work more like 90% of the time. 1 in 10 shots getting through for full damage would be enough of a boost. The percentages could always be changed in the future, assuming this change was implemented, which it wouldn't =( --_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 12:53, 5 October 2009 (BST)

In retrospec a higher inital % would of been better when putting this here. I've upped it to 80% but will probably raise it higher again assuming people consider the PKer threat substantial enough (it actually works against PKers as well; zombies... if your not happy with 80% but Flesh Rot). --Kamikazie-Bunny 14:47, 7 October 2009 (BST)

Let's take a quick poll. All those in favor of Flack Jacket nerf with 90% chance to absorb damage say 90. Those who favor 80% say 80. And if you think it's a dumb idea altogether say dumb. I'll start: 90.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 16:55, 7 October 2009 (BST)

70 but introduce helmets to the armoury for a flat bonus of 25% (enc about 5?)--Honestmistake 17:20, 7 October 2009 (BST)

If it was to have a % chance of working I would like to see damage for flak coming into the game too. Say, let it drop in effectiveness on a 1% for 1 damage stopped. --Honestmistake 17:20, 7 October 2009 (BST)

Flaks are fine the way that they currently work, don't fuck with them. --Papa Johnny 17:40, 7 October 2009 (BST)

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More details

Timestamp: John Ibans 21:39, 1 October 2009 (BST)

Type: Flavour, greater detail

Scope: Available to all

Description: It seems that zombies wandering the town have two attacks, "crush shoulder", and "bite shoulder". While I sure don't mind that, I would like more detail, such as "You flail at USERNAME's chest, causing 3 damage" or "You bite USERNAME's back, causing 4 damage, they become infected". The simple statement is that I would like more zombie attacks (randomly selected) that all do the same amount of damage, but attack different body locations (even striking the head would be cool) In addition, I think this can also be expanded to survivours, wuch as "you strike a zombine in the chest with your fire axe, causing 3 damage" or "you fire at a zombie's leg, causing 10 damage. Their rotten flesh absorbs 2 damage". Mechanics: Well, randomness. I don't know exactly what language Urban Dead is written in, but I imagine that broadening the extent of described attacks would take a bit of monotinay away from constant crushing and biting shoulders. This proposal would not change damage or anything else, just the text.

Discussion (More details)

So, basically adding some additional, random flavor text for zombie attacks? I like the idea. Seems simple to implement and adds a bit of variety to an assault on a survivor. —Aichon— 22:13, 1 October 2009 (BST)

Why does putting a pistol round in a zombie's face do the same damage and level of injury as shooting his foot? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:35, 1 October 2009 (BST)

Why does every firearm ever fired automatically hit a flak jacket? Urban dead is a game of such questions. I enjoy the flavour, as long as its zombie only. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 22:46, 1 October 2009 (BST)

Classist. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:54, 1 October 2009 (BST)

Entirely. Surely all you survivors are aiming at the head anyway? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 08:43, 2 October 2009 (BST)

You shoot Bob the Zombie for 5 damage. Their flak jacket absorbs 1 point of that damage. They take a Headshot and die.

Obviously, flak jackets cover every part of your body. ?:I --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 19:30, 2 October 2009 (BST)

Somewhere on the wiki theres a long page about how zombies wrap flak jackets around their heads. Anyone? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:33, 2 October 2009 (BST)

I see only one issue, and it's kind of minor. If this is giving random body parts, it'll be using the same mechanic as the hit rate %. If you know about Groove Theory, that might be a problem. If people see that Head hits are more successful that leg hits, then they may find out what the current interval is. --Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:06, 2 October 2009 (BST)

The other issue I see is that while some of us like the added flavour, how many people pay that much attention to the damage messages beyond confirming whether or not you actually hit your target? Don't get me wrong--I'd vote Keep if this goes to voting--but I feel that it would be wasted programming for all the appreciation it would get from the average UD user. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 07:19, 2 October 2009 (BST)

You mean that, for instance, if the current interval is 8 seconds with a window of 1 second, there's the possibility that "head" hits would occur during the first .5 seconds of the window and "leg" shots would occur in the second .5 seconds, clueing the player in to where they are landing within the window? Seems kinda unlikely to me, and is certainly a minor edge case, as you said. More likely is that people who try to use Groove Theory would only see the same flavor text over and over again while they're in that groove, which isn't really an issue since using grooves is not supported gameplay practice. —Aichon— 08:25, 2 October 2009 (BST)

According to kevin, it's patched anyway. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:28, 2 October 2009 (BST)

Kevan just changed the system by which it works. He didn't completely erase the potential for abuse. if you read to the bottom of the talk, there's conjecture about a new groove.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 19:11, 2 October 2009 (BST)

Yeah, it's not fixed at all. In truth, I can confirm that it's working and is fairly simple to abuse. Since I became aware of the concept last week, I've already figured out the interval for FAK searches and for zombies using Claw (e.g. I went about 19/20 and 22/24 in successfully finding FAKs in my last two restocking runs), and am hoping I can come up with some reproducible results that I could pass along to Bug Reports or Kevan at some point soon. I'd love to see the RNG fixed, to be frank, since I know that there are others who have doubtless researched this at length and are capable of abusing it to the extreme. In the meantime though, and speaking from a small bit of experience, I don't think that the flavor messages would have much impact on people abusing Groove Theory, though I could very well be wrong. —Aichon— 23:28, 2 October 2009 (BST)

Last time I checked it the groove was well and truly obvious and working. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 07:43, 5 October 2009 (BST)

Well, the simple thing would be to just NOT include "head" in the random target flavor text. "Head" already has a special mechanic (headshot) which would supercede this flavor text (unless the headshot mechanic changes). The main problem with the idea is that it isn't JUST "flavor text". If I attack you and hit your hand, it could (and probably would) be argued that it should have some "effect" beyond just doing standard damage.--Pesatyel 01:59, 3 October 2009 (BST)

And along the same lines, "foot" and "hand" just wouldn't be included in the random text. John Ibans 15:01, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Your missing the point then. "Hand" was just an example. If I injure you ANYWHERE on the arm or leg it would have essentially the same effect. People would argue that a leg wound would slow you down. WHERE on the leg wouldn't matter.--Pesatyel 18:16, 3 October 2009 (BST)

I think a better system would be to ignore body parts. You gouge... or You tear, Claw, Swipe, rend, scratch grab. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:36, 3 October 2009 (BST)

Agreed. It just looked like the discussion was headed in the direction of specific locations.--Pesatyel 05:34, 5 October 2009 (BST)

Extra flavor to make things a little more interesting? Sounds good. --Papa Johnny 17:41, 7 October 2009 (BST)

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