Suggestion:20100206 Ladders

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	This suggestion has finished voting and has been moved to Peer Rejected.

Ladders

MikeLemmer 00:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion type
New Item

Suggestion scope
Survivors

Suggestion description
The extension ladder lets a survivor enter a heavily barricaded, non-ruined building once.

• Encumbrance: 40%
• Found at:
  • Moderate rates: Junkyard, Warehouse
  • Low rates: Fire Department, Factory
• When a survivor with a ladder is outside a heavily-barricaded building he can't enter on foot, the option "Enter the Building by Ladder" appears. Using this costs 1 AP and consumes a ladder.
  • Using this option on an intact building lets the survivor enter the building despite the barricade level: "You carefully extend the ladder and climb up it into a window. It's too unwieldy to pull up, so you push it over to join the barricades below."
  • Using this option on a ruined building doesn't let the survivor enter it. Instead, he takes damage as if he tried Free Running into it: "You set up the ladder and begin climbing, but the ruined wall it's propped on gives way. You crash to the ground; the ladder is ruined."
• Ladders can be used as an improvised melee weapon (10% base hit, 2 damage).

Predicted Game Changes: Provides an alternative to Free Running in exchange for heavy encumbrance & searching for each use. Will primarily help survivors without Free Running, although veteran survivors may want one for emergencies. Can aid pro-PK & anti-PK actions by providing access to heavily-barricaded zones. Will probably aid prepared, irate revived zombies (who don't need much inventory & may not have Free Running).

Suggestion discussed here.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Keep - Author's keep vote. --MikeLemmer 00:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Keep - Given the changes as per the discussion, I can get behind this. 00:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Keep – Interesting idea; I can foresee interesting tactics. I'm all about maintaining interest. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 01:02, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Keep - As Rev. I look forward to seeing death cultists and PKers surprising people with these. Heeheehee. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 01:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
5. Keep - refreshing to see something original, fun, fairly balanced. --
    
    
    
    
   03:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
6. Keep - I think it is a great idea. --Surfraptor 18:47, 6th February 2010 (EST)
7. Keeeep - I need one of these for when I hunt my buddies :D. I mean you, LoBos. Cookies and Cream 12:32, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
8. Keep - The flaws I poked on in the Suggestion Talk (i.e. pinatas) have been dealed with, so go for it. --Spiderzed 12:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
9. Keep - Because safe suburbs suddenly ain't so safe when everything's caded to EHB+2billion... Enigma179 15:31, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
10. Keep - Sure. Why not? --^A_O^R_D^M_O^P_R^I _! ^T 20:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
11. Keep - Although Iscariot raises a good point survivors need this, it's easier for players to work against survivors than it is zombies. If survivors worked together perfectly and didn't have to deal with cultists then this wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately it is, all it takes is one or two Cultist to block every entry point in a suburb and every survivors suffers. Dedicated players may say this is part of the game (and I agree it is) but some will fail to realise that this makes the game much more difficult for survivors than if it was purely SvZ. A zombies only threat is a Survivor, Survivors are attacked by both sides, they need little things like this to keep the survivors surviving and prevent Malton reaching critical mass.--Kamikazie-Bunny 15:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
12. Keep it - Well balanced and a great addition. Sure keep for me. --Thadeous Oakley 11:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
13. Keep - This is a good idea, but using as a melee weapon is kinda stupid. -- Drunk Link2500  22:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
14. Keep ~ Nice, I like it. --Justinbronze 04:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

    Keep - Makes sense - Zig13 - 26/02/2010 at 18:13(BST) - Vote after deadline struck -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 06:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Kill Votes

1. Kill - I love everything about it, and you had me all the way up until factory searches. I just think factories are too important to the survivor side to have their search rates diluted.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 03:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Kill - Personally, I don't like it, and I think it's still a bit over-powered.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 14:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Kill As Giles: I don't want to find five of these suckers when I just want a damn generator. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 15:52, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Kill - As some of Iscariot's points below and some of the points above me. Although i love the idea of being able to bypass barricades on the outside, especially in a red/yellow suburb, you seem to be missing quite a number of "predicted game changes": one of which is the immense aid this would give to parachuters. --Private Mark 19:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

   Re - Mike has actually already mentioned the point about parachuting in the very suggestion: "Will probably aid prepared, irate revived zombies (who don't need much inventory & may not have Free Running)." --Spiderzed 19:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC) Non-author reply. --ZsL 21:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

5. Kill - It is an interesting idea, but I'd like to see concrete search percentages for finding the ladders. I also think that 2 AP would be more appropriate for its use (1 AP to extend the ladder, and another to climb it). --ZsL 21:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
6. kill Unless it either prevents freerunning due to its bulk or is automatically used/discarded when you do freerun it is just a buff to already fully stocked survivors. --Honestmistake 00:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
7. kill - As Iscariot and Pesatyel--Degree7 18:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
8. kill - I think it's kind of sick that pro-survivor bias is so prevalent around here that such a suggestion could seem reasonable or even sane to otherwise moderately intelligent people, for any length of time. Even I thought it might be okay, at first. Entire suburbs being idiots' barricade fortresses of solitude is the way it is so often, it just seems like the way it's supposed to be. This item is nothing but a request for an ass-cover from on high for survivors to continue to act selfish and short-sighted with no painful repercussions for them. And no, PKs and DCs don't make this item necessary; as they can use the item too it doesn't let you get anywhere they can't, and you can use the same alternate entrance options *cough*ruins, rot revives*cough* as they do if you're that frightened of overcading. PKs and DCs are a very weak excuse for anything, anyway. Do you honestly think the zombies (substantially outnumbered, as usual) are entirely made up of real zombies and don't have any big chunks of mrh-cows, harman spies, and ZKs trying to screw up ruin maintenance? Get real. The implication that zombies are all unified and harmonious and humans are mainly working for zombies is laughable. --Mold 02:55, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
9. kill, and stamp on - This is an interesting idea, and you have made it reasonably fair, but the principle is VERY biased towards survivors --Angusburger 12:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
10. Kill - not being able to get into heavily barricaded buildings is there to balance the protection they afford survivors -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:47 14 February 2010 (BST)
11. Kill - Search rates seem a bit too high for me and in places that would make it annoying. —Aichon— 15:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
12. Kill - This destroys everything that the game is based on. If you barricade a building above VSB it means you don't want people in, period. This just means all buildings will be barricaded even higher which is newbie unfriendly. --Johnny Yossarian 11:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

    Kill - This would make the game easier for survivors, & it would cause the game to become more unbalanced. Plus, I doubt the ladder would be used that often, because of the free running skill. --Jesant13 21:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC) - Vote after deadline struck -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 06:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - Considering you never bothered to counter the several arguments I made on Talk:Suggestions, I'll just repost them here: Let me get this right, you want an item that negates the no entry clause on HB or higher cades? You want this to help newbies get into malls? This item is unneeded, newbies can walk up to the mall and click enter to get in.... unless of course some idiot's caded the entire mall up. Who's fault is that? That's right, it's the fault of the survivors. You don't get a new item to bypass the downsides in your own fucking policies. Why should there be a possibility of a street treat escaping from a feral due to an item you got put into the game because the entire pro-survivor side are stupid? Overcading is a valid tactic because none of you have barricade plans with enough entry points. Want to stop getting locked out? Talk to each other and create and maintain more entry points. Don't come here and expect to get a free pass for your own idiocy. It's your side of the game, the onus is on you to let the newbies into the mall, not for us to change the game because you can't be bothered. Why the fuck don't you make sure that malls in green suburbs are lowered to VSB to let newbies in? Why should Kevan rush to cover you lot again? Barricades work on a trade, more protection from an attack for no entry. Want entry points? Have less protection. This is the fundamental principle of barricades that is the basis of all zombie/survivor conflict. Do not negate them just because you don't like the inherent and deliberate downside. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 08:49, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Gotta agree with Iscariot. This is a “loner safety item” masquerading under “lets help newbies”. All I see is survivors whining about not being able to get into overbarricaded buildings (which suggestions like this always seem to ignore the fact that SURIVVORS can ATTACK barricades too). Free running is already an overpowered mode of transport for survivors, so hey, why not add another one? This WON’T help newbies. Why? Because survivor players are selfish. As Yonnua pointed out, I can carry 98% encumbrance and still pick up a ladder. Once everyone has a ladder, ALL barricades will go up to EHB. Why? ‘’You have a ladder that lets you in. Why bother lowering it?’’. If survivors actually cared about each other AND newbies, they would maintain barricades more appropriately and team up better. Oh, and the locations are bad choices. One could find a ladder ANYWHERE really. So where there? Firestations are diluted for finding axes (currently the best place to find them). Warehouses and factories are diluted for finding pipes and fuel cans. Those locations tend to be high barricade locations as it is. Why not churches (which tend to be considered “newbie friendly” already) and hotels (which only has wine anyway)? Another eample of the "loner safety item".--Pesatyel 07:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Spam - As Iscariot. --Papa Moloch 02:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Spam Also, aren't our building barricaded from the inside? You would be climbing up to windows which are usually not always acessible especially to a painting ladder which I imagine we are discussing(Doubting we are carrying firemen ladders) --Alex1guy 18:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

   Spam - Doesn't actually help the people it purports to: newbies won't be able to enter the overcaded buildings where ladders would be found! Rather, as someone else said, this is just a buff for high-level (and careless) loners. Essentially what you're asking is for the game engine to address what is nothing more or less than a failing in survivor organisation. If zombies have to metagame their asses off to overcome certain game engine imbalances, why can't survivors get off their asses and organise better barricade systems? --WanYao 12:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC) - Vote after deadline struck -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 06:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)