Suggestion talk:20080112 Siege Descriptions

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Zombie Shadows during Sieges

Timestamp:	Mordac the Refuser 04:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Type:	Description improvement
Scope:	Buildings under siege
Description:	Hi, it's been a long time since I've pitched an idea. So please tell me if this has alread been pitched: In most zombie movies, whenever the heroes/survivors are inside a building surrounded by zombies, they always see the zombies pounding and pressing themselves against the windows. This game lacks that element I think that if there are 50 or more zombies (siege conditions) outside a building, survivors inside the building should get a description like this: "Masses of shadowy figures press themselves against the windows, pounding and clawing at the glass. An unending chorus of deathly moans can be heard." This would not give survivors any intel advantage because A) It doesn't give the exact number of zombies outside; it only indicates that there are 50+ zombies outside, and B) Survivors inside a building under siege will probably already be aware that there are 50+ zombies outside.

Discussion (Zombie Shadows during Sieges)

Excellent idea but it does sound familiar! Mind you, I think the similar ideas all came with move/freerun penalties so it might avoid dupe by just retaining the flavour! --Honestmistake 10:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I love the idea. but I'm sure a fair few people will vote kill because it's "X-ray vison".--'BP^Tmz 10:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Me liek. Helps newbies who don't know the signs of a mall seige. UCFSD 14:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't know the signs of a mall seige??? I don't care how new you are, when people start screaming "OMG theres like 100 zeds outside the NE corner!" and then spam the radio telling everyone who doesn't care they will notice pretty quick ;) --Honestmistake 16:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I like--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 15:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd vote for it.--Actingupagain 16:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Would it work the other way though? 50+ survivors would make a lot of noise too?--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. It would also stop zombies wasting AP on empty builings.Studoku 20:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about that; I can see in-seeing-out working, but not out-seeing-in. --TriPolarClicky! 03:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not "seeing in," it's hearing a bunch of noisy meatbagz. Er, I mean "survivors." Remember that this would only kick in with groups of 50 or more, which is usually going to be malls and Necrotech buildings. This will not nerf the "go hide somewhere low profile" tactic at all. Safety in numbers doesn't usually get the advantage of stealth anyway. One last point, please don't change the descriptions based on the size of the crowds. I'd rather see an all-or-nothing description. --Uncle Bill 08:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Survivors would only be aware that there are at least fifty zombies outside. The description wouldn't change if there are 50 or 500 outside. -- Mordac the Refuser 01:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I like it a lot. A zombie equivalent would be nice, but not really necessary. There is no real gain for survivors here. I'd imagine they've noticed already, as stated. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 00:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I like this idea a lot, nice to know we have people outside the doors. But yes I think a zombie equivalent would be good too, something like you hear the murmur of voices inside the building for low numbers and get it going up and up, a bit like feeding groan. Acoustic Pie 00:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

If I pitch a zombie equivilant to this, it will have to be a separate suggestion. I don't plan on combining it with this current one. -- Mordac the Refuser 01:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Just don't be surprised when this is killed by people who do want a zombie equivalent. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 13:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There's an easy fix to that problem... mention the fact that you plan to submit a zombie equivalent in the seperately and in the "near future." Provide a link to this discussion thread. --Uncle Bill 23:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

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Re Spam

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1. Spam - You're kidding right? It's X-ray vision, your argument for why it isn't is just plain horrible considering survivors free running means they don't even have to go outside. Not to mention that barricades do not need a buff that includes X-ray vision telling them when to barricade. This is just crap.--Karek^maps?! 18:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Also, regarding the note and Funt's vote You are voting on the merit of THIS suggestion, not how it compares to others.--Karek^maps?! 18:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   This isn't buffing barricades. Survivors barricade buildings regardless of whether there is a 50+ horde of zombies outside or not (They'd be idiots not to). And it's NOT X-Ray vision because it doesn't give the EXACT number of zombies outside. It only indicates that there are 50+ zombies outside - which any building inhabitant should be aware of in the first place, whether they go outside or not. -- Mordac the Refuser 18:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   It's a buff to barricades because number of zombies outside is significant to what level you barricade to, and it is X-ray vision because it gives you free information from outside barricades, which is yet another buff to barricades because that is information that costs 1-2 AP to get currently that you are now providing for free. Any building inhabitant should be aware of is perfect reason why this shouldn't have been suggested, it's free actions, free AP, it's X-ray vision, and it's something that shouldn't be in the game, what should be in the game is survivors having to spend AP to get their information like zombies do instead of getting it for doing nothing.--Karek^maps?! 18:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   It's NOT a buff because even a 10 zombie group will cause survivors to barricade buildings if it's not already barricaded. Also 50+ zombie hordes tend to cause survivors to do stuff like spray paint warning messages and run around calling for help. (Not to mention that TRPs with 50+ hordes are listed as "under siege" on this wiki - but I'm not going to use this arguement since you'll probably just say that not everyone visits this wiki). Currently, it only takes ONE survivor to figure out that there are zombies outside, and pretty soon EVERYONE inside will know what's going on out there. If that doesn't get survivors' attention, then the constant breakins will. Mordac the Refuser 19:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Needlessly repeating yourself won't get me to change my vote. Even ignoring that 50 zombies is actually a milestone, as is 100 zombies, that would change how people barricade and when they log on to barricade, it's still a buff for all the other reasons I listed, specifically the one where you are getting information that normally would have cost you 1-2 AP and an additional 2-3+ to get back inside. As for taking only one survivor to figure that out, I've been in buildings during sieges so that argument really isn't gonna help, users frequently provide false reports, understate, overstate, and ignore each other because they'd rather say something closer to "There's a zombie outside I got to nearly 15 Hp, I couldn't kill him cause I put 5 of his cocksucker friends into the ground" instead of something helpful.--Karek^maps?! 19:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   I'm not going to argue about the so-called "X-Ray" vision stuff anymore. However, I still don't get how this would change the way people barricaded buildings. It only takes a single survivor to barricade a building, so it's not like survivors won't ALREADY have barricaded the building in the first place. Even in the green zones, most buildings are extremely heavily or very strongly barricaded. Also shouldn't a 50+ zombie horde DESERVE to be noticed by everyone? -- Mordac the Refuser 20:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   I don't know, shouldn't 100+ survivors be noticeable to zombies passing by?--Karek^maps?! 06:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   If I may: that's allowed for in various Peer Reviewed suggestions. Just because it's not part of this suggestion, it doesn't mean it's not a good, acceptable idea, and the author's already stated in his suggestion that he's in favour of that kind of balance, in a separate suggestion. (The rule about not referencing other suggestions is ridiculous, and was clearly written by a moron. Referencing other work is a mainstay of writing, and the validity of any given reference is dependant on context, and not any absolute thought up on a whim by an amateur wiki-lawyer.) --Funt Solo ^QT 11:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Funt the point of the rule is that if the balance isn't in the suggestion it doesn't exist in relation to this suggestion as far as this suggestion, the game, and peer reviewed are concerned. As for the major major problems with this, it's not so much that it is X-ray, although it is pretty damn powerful X-ray, it's that it is a)Free X-ray b)Negates one of barricadings few almost inconsequential downsides and c)functions on a threshold. Not to mention that it is buffing without a reason. Also, there is a lot of unbalanced crap in peer reviewed, usually passed in a manner that his one is going to be, usually because a large portion of the wiki population are 1) survivors and 2)selfish if you can't show a massive change.--Karek^maps?! 06:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   "a large portion of the wiki population are ... survivors". Genuine curiosity: have you got stats for that? --Funt Solo ^QT 09:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   If I may quote nuBSG - "The people made their choice. We're gonna have to live with it.. even if it's the wrong choice." Don't you just love democracy? :) -- Mordac the Refuser 00:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

1. No, I'm not Kevan, I just go based off of Talk:Suggestions, IRC/forums, and the suggestions system as a whole when I say that, although all the suburb pages and the game stats themselves don't hurt that. I could start putting it into a table to show what I mean by that and who/how I sort people into that category if it's really necessary every time I say that and, while that would be a hassle for me(a big one even), I could possibly also cite links to revision hists that I think outline the view. I would do it if I thought it would help my point but I have a very good feeling that it probably wouldn't matter.--Karek^maps?! 12:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   I was genuinely curious what the thought was based on, so thanks for responding. I'm not going to throw it back at you. (Obviously we disagree about the harm this suggestion would do to the game, but that's a separate issue. I can't argue against anything you've listed - I just don't see that harm in it, given the context.) --Funt Solo ^QT 12:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Spam - It's complete X-Ray. It allows free information that would normally cost AP to find out. Currently survivors have to find a free running entry point, go into the open (risking being 'locked out' if someone over-cades when they're out), look at the building in question (giving active zombies a chance to attack/infect/gain XP from them) and return safely with this info. This suggestion removes that and is a massive buff. It is x-ray, all Mordac's rebuttals are strawmen as those examples cost AP, whereas his suggestion is a free action. -- Iscariot 21:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   So, what would you call binoculars, NecroTech Scans, Feeding Groans, Scent Death, or the Urban Dead Wiki? If this an "X-Ray" it's a very weak "X-Ray" as it only tells users that there are 50 or more zombies outside. A complete X-Ray would tell EXACTLY how many zombies were outside. This isn't like that at all. -- Mordac the Refuser 22:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Would you like to tell everybody what the difference is between all of those examples and your suggestion? -- Iscariot 22:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Ummm... No. That would be defeating the purpose of having those examples in the first place. -- Mordac the Refuser 22:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   All those examples cost AP, yours does not. -- Iscariot 23:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   LISTENING to Feeding Groans and radio messages doesn't cost AP. NecroNet scans, binocs, and Scent Death cost a grand total of ONE AP. And looking at the Urban Dead wiki doesn't cost any AP. And they ALL give much more specific info than the stuff I'm suggesting. (And why didn't you just say that in the first place instead of asking ME to do it for you?) -- Mordac the Refuser 23:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Thank you so much for dragging this on so it gets dragged to the discussion page, I've altered my vote for clarity. MAKING groans and messages costs AP for a reason, the same even applies to speaking. Why is your suggestion so special? To go over each of your examples, Necronet can quickly be out of date, Groans are pointless in a populated area after the first 15 minutes, Scent Death is exactly what is says on the tin, zombies finding other zombies according to genre hording and the Wiki can easily be inaccurate. I don't care if you consider it a very weak x-ray or not, the fact remains, this suggestion allows you to see through something you aren't currently allowed to see through. Something is termed an x-ray when it can be used to see through something, this is an x-ray. Why is it so hard to find an entry point and actually have a look around?

   And why did I ask you to do it? To see if you could think objectively and admit it...apparently not. -- Iscariot 23:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   You're welcome. :p Btw, am I detecting a hint of hostility and/or bitterness here? -- Mordac the Refuser 23:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   I'm neither hostile or bitter, I just think your suggestion is a unneccessary and unneeded buff and wanted to see if you could follow the simple logic and see why your strawmen examples weren't convincing anyone. -- Iscariot 23:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   "Not convincing anyone"? Don't you mean not convincing YOU? And here's something you haven't considered. I am a dedicated zombie in-game. Why on Earth would I make a suggestion that I thought would give the Survivor side a significant advantage over MY side? Especially given that survivors currently outnumber my side 63-37. -- Mordac the Refuser 23:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Unintended effect? Who knows, I've seen users do the same thing on accident many times though, usually because they don't look into the numbers or reasons against the type of thing they suggest enough.--Karek^maps?! 06:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   Actually, I thought this one through. Which brings up the question as to why you didn't object when I pitched it out on the talk page. --Mordac the Refuser 06:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   Because lately whenever I get to that page I end up doing removal and cycling instead of having time to read the suggestions, if I do one I will probably not end up doing the other. Frequently I don't comment on them at all.--Karek^maps?! 09:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

X-Ray Vision

If X-Ray vision is gaining any info that you cannot see from your current location then it already exists in many and varied forms. Binoculars, scent skills being obvious ones but hearing feeding groans is an even better example. Look at the latest set of groans and you can judge by distance how many harmanz are (or at least were) in the building. Thats free and often gives you reports on multiple buildings and at a fairly impressive range. Its not precise and it may be out of date but its a damn site more useful than knowing there are more than 50 zombies outside your building! --Honestmistake 15:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah - when people are against something they often fall back on the Dos and Donts as if they're commandments from a supreme being, rather than loose guidelines. Many of the Donts are all implemented already in the game in some form or other. The "zombies are hard done by" gang are pretty much guaranteed to vote against anything for surviors - whether it helps them or not. --Funt Solo ^QT 17:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I know what you mean I had a discussion with Karek the other day where he said Barricades are a game breaker and that survivors baracading empty buildings was griefing zombies.--Kristi of the Dead 04:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact remains that this IS X-ray, and X-ray suggestions ARE listed with the ones that are most commonly shot down, im not even arguing the usefulness of the suggestion anymore, he was free to suggest it, but the do's and dont's are there to let him know that it will PROBOBLY get shot down, i honestly dont see why he seems in such shock that everyone dosent think this is a great thing.--Kuddles 05:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly enough though, this particular suggestion is going to pass. --Pdeq^Talk* 05:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

That's rich, I don't think survivors barricading emtpy buildings is griefing, I think some survivors do grief with it, the difference is intent. I also do think that it's selfish players like you(or rather the group you chose to associate yourself with) that cause a lot of other players and newer players in the game to get screwed over constantly, ironically also by abusing barricades. Oh and groans cost AP and provide pretty much no information, this is free and provides an exact number through means of a threshhold, so Honestmistake, you really do need a better argument.--Karek^maps?! 06:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I did say "hearing" feeding groans is free not the groan itself. That 1AP groan can potentially inform every zombie (in what, 6 block radius is it?) nearby that food is served. You might get there too late and find it eaten or repackaged but either way its usually a damn site more useful than getting a bit of ominous flavour text to tell you something you already know about the building you are standing in! In over 2 years the only buildings I have seen stand for more than a few days with just 20 zeds is incredibly small, never have i woken up and been shocked to find 50 zombies outside (i don't like malls so I am not counting them) If 50 zeds turn up outside your door and you didn't have a clue they were in the area it means its probably the bash arriving en-masse and you are almost certainly dead anyway! Even if this is (a very imprecise) X-Ray also its sensible, in genre and fun. --Honestmistake 10:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh and Karek, can I just ask you if you think rotters blocking revive lines to slow survivors regrouping is greifing or a valid tactic? It seems to me that both are doing pretty much the same thing, ie wasting the other sides AP in order to gain an advantage--Honestmistake 10:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you really want me to answer that go to my talk page, but be prepared to be insulted a lot for even asking the question.--Karek^maps?! 11:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Feeding groans are flares, nothing more, and much less.--Karek^maps?! 11:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Feeding groans are a hell of a lot more effective than flares. -- Mordac the Refuser 20:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No, they aren't, the only reason they are having more effect than flares is that zombies actually use them in a similar and universal manner. But groans are most definitely not more effective than flares, the requirements to be outside and get through barricades make sure of that.--Karek^maps?! 07:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

That's weird. I can usually hear groans from inside buildings just as well as outside. -- Mordac the Refuser 19:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

That's weird considering that was removed about a long long time ago. It's impossible to hear groans from inside buildings.--Karek^maps?! 20:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I can hear groans that come from directly outside the building I'm in anyway. Maybe it's a glitch. -- Mordac the Refuser 21:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

If you mean the text "you hear a groan from nearby" that's from in the same building, not from outside.--Karek^maps?! 21:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I initially thought. However, I get two types of messages when inside a building: "You hear a groan from nearby" or "you hear a groan from very close by" - I don't know if they mean the same thing or not. -- Mordac the Refuser 23:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

There are two possible texts based on horde affiliation.--Karek^maps?! 08:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, someone's certainly in a bad mood today. (And it doesn't provide an EXACT NUMBER. An "exact number" would be something like 57 or 89 zombies outside. This says "fifty or more" which is VAGUE, not "EXACT." Feeding groans provide a hell of lot more info in terms of how many survivors are inside a buidling.) -- Mordac the Refuser 06:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Psst barricade abuse is in your head Karek. There is no such thing.--Kristi of the Dead 06:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Psst, there is a balance, check the numbers, it's just in your head. There is no such thing.--Karek^maps?! 06:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, if you don't have anything to add beyond taking digs at me don't comment, you're just spamming up what, without your input, could actually be a productive conversation.--Karek^maps?! 06:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Now again, without the Kirsti hate. 50 is an exact number, you know more than or less than an exact number, a number which is actually useful. Now if it were 10 or 200 then I could understand that argument, but 50, 50 really does matter as a number.--Karek^maps?! 06:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Psst, people make jokes sometimes Karek, not just insults and digs.--Lachryma^☭ 06:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

shh you'll distract Karek he's being productive and Kristi hating at the same time. It's a hard job so if you'll just quit posting here he'd be able to get on with it.--Kristi of the Dead 06:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No thanks, I wanna be labeled an 'annoying bitch' too!--Lachryma^☭ 06:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Except she has a history of it Lach.--Karek^maps?! 06:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

except I went to your page asked to bury the hatchet. Trust me Karek my comments are not as big of a deal as you are making them out to be. I just thought the term barricade abuse was funny is all. Well that and I think sysops should have the ability to make edits without calling people names like Karek seems to like to do.--Kristi of the Dead 06:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Feeding groans arn't free, each and every groan cost a zombie an AP point. That adds up to a lot of AP to attract ferals to an open building (that may be barricaded by the time they get there) -- boxy ^{talk • i} 06:51 14 January 2008 (BST)

it is still though a good indication that there are humans inside even if it is barricaded back up right?--Kristi of the Dead 06:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Free to the listeners, must be what was meant. Indeed though, not free to the groaner. --Funt Solo ^QT 12:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll grant you that. It's AP donated by individuals for the benefit of the team. But it's not free to the zombie "team". Groaning costs a lot if you think about it. And it's totally consistent with the limited ability of zombies to communicate. Where survivors can spread the word with speech, communicating the exact situation with much more freedom, zombies can groan whenever there is a survivor present... which takes a great deal of judgment as to whether the groan is worth following -- boxy ^{talk • i} 13:41 14 January 2008 (BST)

Yeah, you're right. This info. shouldn't be free. Given that many buildings are not large boxes with a single door, the presence of the horde could be something you find out from scouting the perimeter for 1AP, at which point, if there are more than 50, the flavour text kicks in. At that point, the survivor might want to tell everyone else. After all, in Shaun of the Dead, there's about 50 zombies at the back door, that aren't noticed till someone looks through the glass. Yeah, that's a bit fairer. --Funt Solo ^QT 18:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Karek, can I just ask you if you think rotters blocking revive lines to slow survivors regrouping is greifing or a valid tactic. It seems to me that both are doing pretty much the same thing, ie wasting the other sides AP in order to gain an advantage

Sign your posts whoever you are. But to answer your question: Revive lines are a player tactic, not a game mechanic. As such, blocking them (Countering the tactic) is fair play. I thought i cudgeled this argument into the ground months ago... --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 12:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Grim... thats part of my post from above, I have no idea how it got down here (and got here missing the bit that makes it make sense?) For the record I agree that its valid, I was comparing it to barricade straffing!--Honestmistake 08:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Grim... thats part of my post from above, I have no idea how it got down here (and got here missing the bit that makes it make sense?) For the record I agree that its valid, I was comparing it to barricade straffing!--Honestmistake 08:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

See response above. And why do you keep adding your comments twice?--Karek^maps?! 08:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Weird, whole site crashed while I was posting... just came back to try again before heading over to your page for abuse ;)--Honestmistake 09:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Further discussion

To save Axe Hack from having to fix the page again you may continue discussion here if you wish. Kindly repost your query if you do. -- Iscariot 21:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)