Suggestion:20080112 Siege Descriptions

	Closed
	This suggestion has finished voting and has been moved to Peer Reviewed.

20080112 Siege Descriptions (Internal)

Mordac the Refuser 17:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion type
Flavor improvement.

Suggestion scope
Players inside buildings with 50+ Zombies outside.

Suggestion description

EDIT: I'm getting rid of the new version. I'm happy with this current one. It's too hard to please everyone anyway.

In most zombie movies, whenever the heroes/survivors are trapped inside a building surrounded by zombies, they always see and hear the zombies pounding and pressing themselves against the windows. This game lacks that element. I think that if there are 50 or more zombies (siege conditions) outside a building, players inside the building should get a description like this:

"Masses of shadowy figures press themselves against the windows, pounding and clawing at the glass. An unending chorus of deathly moans can be heard."

(The text should vary slightly for buildings that are described as not having windows)

This would NOT give survivors an "X-Ray" advantage because:

A) It doesn't give the exact number of zombies outside; it only indicates that there are 50+ zombies outside.

B) Survivors inside a building under siege will probably already be aware that there are 50+ zombies outside (A huge mob of zombies isn't what I would call a Stealth Assassin Squad).

Note: There has been talk about creating a Zombie-equivilant of this (knowing that there are 50+ survivors inside a building), however, it will have to be pitched as a separate suggestion. So, please don't kill this current suggestion because it's lacking a Zombie-equivilant.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Keep - Author Vote. -- Mordac the Refuser 17:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
2. Keep - would be interesting, and if theres 50+ zombies outside chances are enough people know, that one more won't make a difference.--Zach016 17:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Keep C'mon.  Nalikill  ^{TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI}  17:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Keep - Makes sense. In real life you'd notice a crowd of fifty people outside your house, and the change wouldn't be broken. AngelBlade 17:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Keep - Yay. --Heretic144 17:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Keep - Various Peer Reviewed suggestions provide zombies with limited forms of X-Ray Vision. There's the gennie-based Shadows, the AP-costed listening skill Sense Prey, the ability to smell injured survivors with Enhanced Scent and finally (of those that I could find quickly), the one that most matches this description: Scent Life. --Funt Solo ^QT 18:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Plus, note to Karke: I am voting Keep on the merits of this suggestion. The links were simply for interest. --Funt Solo ^QT 19:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Changed vote after discussing this with boxy on the talk page. --Funt Solo ^QT 18:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

6. Keep - So if I'm a zombie in a building do I know theres 50 of my friends outside?--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Yeah, it applies to all players inside a sieged building. -- Mordac the Refuser 19:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

7. Keep Seeing as zombie skills already exist that could be considered to be breaking the X ray vision rule, and this suggestion realy doesn't break the Xray vision rule any more than it's zombie counterparts I'm voting keep for this. It'd be very occasionaly useful, but mostly provide some fun flavour. Anyway, with 50+ zombies outside, you realy don't need telling to raise the barricades! You can tell by the barricades dropping increadibly fast. I do think, however you could have got away with suggesting a zombie equivilent for this in the same suggestion.--Seventythree^Talk 19:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
8. Keep+ - I also support the other suggestion.Studoku 20:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Keep - If there were 50 zombies banging on my front door, I think I'd know about it. --Hhal 20:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
10. Keep - Yes, it's X-Ray Vision, but only in a very, very limited form. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 22:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
11. Keep - Quite honestly, if someone hasn't noticed 50 zombies standing outside their safehouse then they're an idiot and I think that the game should be the least of their worries.--The General ^{T Sys U! P! F!} 22:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
12. Keep - Makes logical sense, and should add a sense of desperation to the otherwise quiet sieges. --Ciaran Deckardson 22:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
13. X-ray vision spam is stupid - There's something called a wiki. Any idiot can walk around and see: "OMFG there's a hunderd zombiez outside dat building!!!" then add it to the wiki. The flavor is also most excellent. Very strong keep.--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
14. Keep It's a great idea. Bastetmeow 23:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
15. Keep - does seem like x-ray vision, I dont think it would harm anything.--'BP^Tmz 00:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
16. Keep - Limited X-ray is fine. And it's about time we have a zombie-equivalent. The current PR ones are inherently flawed in various ways. ~Ariedartin • Talk • A KS J abt all 02:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
17. Keep - Interesting flavor; I can't see it getting implemented, but interesting nonetheless...--TriPolarClicky! 02:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
18. Keep - Sounds cool. - Grant 04:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
19. Keep - Yes. Maybe some dumb humans will run away, too. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 06:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
20. Keep - The extra Info is flavour text more than anything else because harmans do actually tell each other (way too often!!!) when there is a siege going on. Pesatyel's point about why its scary relating to not being able to escape is well made but that really isn't what this is a bout. This is not an early warning and if it is x-ray vision then "feeding groans" are scrying!--Honestmistake 15:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
21. Keep - Feeding Groans do the same thing, except they tell where the largest human and zombie mobs are. This just says that there are more than 50 zombies outside. doc crook 15:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
22. Keep - so people below seriously consider that only with x-ray vision they could see a horde of zombies sieging the building? such stuff isn't silent --~~~~ [talk] 15:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
23. Keep - makes the very enjoyable sieges even better--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 16:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
24. Keep - This is really awesome, I would love this. Not that I'm ever in sieges, nor care to be, but it would be a great flavor addition. --Vandurn 16:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
25. Keep - Good too add a bit more flavor and drama to sieges. --Livid18:39 GMT 13th January.
26. Keep - Less x-ray than binoculars. And yeah, I generally know whether there is more or less than 50 zombies outside, so this is mostly flavor for me.--Pdeq^Talk* 20:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
27. Keep - I don't see it as being too x-rayish. --Z. slay3r •  Talk  21:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
28. Keep - Sounds good, but perhaps it doesn't even need a "50+ Zombies outside" note. With all the banging outside, it's pretty obvious how large the horde is... --Private Mark 21:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
29. Keep - Onoz! X-ray lazerz will kill mez!!!!!!1!!11!!oneoneone!!11! Give it rest with the spams already... It's like there's no kill section anymore... -- BoboTalkClown 22:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
30. Keep Excellent suggestion. Very in keeping with the genre and it's always bothered me that there could be 50+ zeds banging on the cades and no one notices.--DI Sweeny 23:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
31. Keep- I love flavor! --Darth Lumis^{T! A! E! SR} 01:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
32. Keep- It's just flavor, and flavor tastes good. --Great Lord P4X639, MFD 01:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
33. Keep- Here, here P4X! --xXNecromancerxX 01:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
34. 'Keep - Sounds like a good idea. Building descriptions are kind of bland, and that would certainly make the description a lot more interesting to read. Plus, "seeing" the mass of zombies outside the window might add to the immersion effect. --Dr. Allison Wolf ^{MEMS Talk PIF} 02:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
35. Keep - Mmm, flavor...--Lachryma^☭ 02:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
36. Keep - Nice suggestion, I love it!!! BenderWaW 02:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
37. Keep - Nice, I really like it. It would be a great addition I think. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Koolaidman007 (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.
38. Keep - I like it. I also think it would add flavor. Choppers McGee 22:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
39. Keep Tasty, and makes sense. And those of you in Spam? NOT hearing the combined moans of 50 or more zombies is @#$%ing BS. This is the most useless kind of X-Ray. Only if the square outside was a REVIVE POINT (which almost never happens) would your idea of this being X-Ray even REMOTELY apply. You're probably all just mad that you didn't think of this blatantly obvious change first. *Shames Spammers* ~A`Blue`Jelly^TME*V*I*L*_? 05:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
40. Keep - Damn fine. --_Ducis ^Dux_Sloth^Talk 06:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
41. Keep - I suppose it would be a useless spam most of the time. But sometimes it would be flavor. Why not? -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 07:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
42. Keep - It's a common sense suggestion that also adds flavor. What's not to love? --Reaper with no name ^TJ! 14:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
43. Keep - 50+ zombies outside? Could be a chance that this description is the first thing you'll read as you press the "Stand up" button. --Ryiis 15:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
44. Keep - The vehemance driving the Kill and Spam votes is stunning. The times that we'd see these shadows is so rare, it's couldn't possibly be a survivor buff. Other than the Mall Tour and similar horde attacks, these shadows would never be seen. Therefore, I vote yes for in genre flavor.--Actingupagain 15:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
45. Keep - Very intriguing, would be a nice touch of realism --Ulzar 17:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
46. Keep - Would add a bit of horror to the game. Not Xray, hell, wouldn't you be able to hear the groaning of 50 or so zeds pounding at your door? Saying it's Xray is like saying that you can't hear someone ring your doorbell. Definite keep. --bloodkiller 03:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
47. Keep - It makes good sense and is believable.--Kolechovski 18:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
48. Keep - As above. And for those who are saying XRAY XRAY SPAMSPAMSPAM, wouldnt you already know there was a seige with all the trenchcoaters shouting "ILLL PROTEKT U FROM DA ZEDS!! BANG BANG BANG. I GOTS ONE. NEED A FAK. KILL AND WE SHALL RULE MALTON! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."? It's good flavour. -Downinflames 05:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
49. Keep - I like it. "Are they still at the window? *Opens curtains* Yup". I just like it. Acoustic Pie 21:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
50. Keep - There's a good arguement below against this suggestion with examples from several zombie movies. I still hold to my keep vote, but this could also work well if it only applied to small buildings. For example, if this didn't work with "tall" buildings (you can use binoculars) and "large buildings" (malls, forts, etc.), this would still be in genre without giving away information during mall/NT seiges. Then again, the odds of seeing 50+ zombies at a police station aren't really that high, but you get the idea. Uh, keep! --Uncle Bill 16:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
51. Keep - I like it a lot. Does it really matter if you know there are at least 50 zombies outside? It's not like they could sneak up on a building with a 50+ horde anyway. And it really doesn't matter too much to zombies (as far as I know) if survivors know about how many are out there. And unless all the survivors inside are complete idiots (or lack the construction skill), they'll be maintaining the barricades regardless of if they know how many zombies are outside. --Toastrlord^{T TSA} 23:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
52. Keep - Keep for realism, but only if a zombie equivalent was introduced.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  04:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
53. Keep - Great idea --Scotw 18:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
54. Keep - In real life, how could you not notice 50+ Zeds banging on the door? --FXI 03:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
55. Keep - I think this is a reasonable idea and I don't even see anything wrong with knowing the exact number of zombie outside your current building just not adjacent blocks without a seperate piece of equipment like a necrotech portable. Just because mindless zombies can't see in the barricaded ground floor doesn't mean intelligent survivors can't look out the second floor windows since they are able to use above ground connections for free running. --Cpt Masterson 02:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
56. Keep - I've always thought it was odd that you could not tell what was outside especially in multi story buildings --IvanTT 21:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Kill Votes

1. Kill - Zombies shouldn't be able to tell how many survivors are inside a building (without going in), survivors shouldn't be able to tell how many zombies are outside without going out. If you're freerunning through a suburb, being able to tell that the building you just decided to camp in is under siege is significant information. Sure, you could ask the inhabitants, but that takes AP to ask and answer, and also time -- boxy ^{talk • i} 06:42 14 January 2008 (BST)
2. Kill - While I love the flavor of it after some discussion and looking into it. It does seem like to me it's a buff that gives survivors something for nothing in way. While it may be easy for most survivors to know when there's 50 zombies outside there was a good point made that if you're cruising through a suburb and decide to bed down for the night this would let you know if your planned safehouse was underseige for free that doesn't seem fair. Maybe if it was active if there was more than 1 zombie so you'd still have to go out to see how many.--Kristi of the Dead 13:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Kill - Whilst the spam voters are getting a little bit over-excited about things - this info. shouldn't be free. Given that many buildings are not large boxes with a single door, the presence of the horde could be something you find out from scouting the perimeter for 1AP, at which point, if there are more than 50, the flavour text kicks in. At that point, the survivor might want to tell everyone else (for another 1AP, and all the problems of miscommunication that brings). After all, in Shaun of the Dead, there's about 50 zombies at the back door, that aren't noticed till someone looks through the glass. Yeah, that's a bit fairer. --Funt Solo ^QT 18:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Kill- Kill it dead! this is x-ray vision any way you put it. 50 zeds could move from a burb over to attack a building all at once, and teh survivors inside would instantly know. While i love the flavour of the descriptive text, i say no. As mentioned. Zombies cannot tell how many breathers are inside without getting in, survivors should not be able to tell how many zeds are outside with out getting in. -- Jack ^{S13 T! PC} 16:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Kill - As boxy above. - Headshot Hal 16:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - You're kidding right? It's X-ray vision, your argument for why it isn't is just plain horrible considering survivors free running means they don't even have to go outside. Not to mention that barricades do not need a buff that includes X-ray vision telling them when to barricade. This is just crap.--Karek^maps?! 18:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Also, regarding the note and Funt's vote You are voting on the merit of THIS suggestion, not how it compares to others.--Karek^maps?! 18:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   This isn't buffing barricades. Survivors barricade buildings regardless of whether there is a 50+ horde of zombies outside or not (They'd be idiots not to). And it's NOT X-Ray vision because it doesn't give the EXACT number of zombies outside. It only indicates that there are 50+ zombies outside - which any building inhabitant should be aware of in the first place, whether they go outside or not. -- Mordac the Refuser 18:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   It's a buff to barricades because number of zombies outside is significant to what level you barricade to, and it is X-ray vision because it gives you free information from outside barricades, which is yet another buff to barricades because that is information that costs 1-2 AP to get currently that you are now providing for free. Any building inhabitant should be aware of is perfect reason why this shouldn't have been suggested, it's free actions, free AP, it's X-ray vision, and it's something that shouldn't be in the game, what should be in the game is survivors having to spend AP to get their information like zombies do instead of getting it for doing nothing.--Karek^maps?! 18:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

   Further discussion moved to talk page. --Funt Solo ^QT 19:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

2. Spam - I define x-ray vision as a self explanitory phrase. Seeing through the barricades in ANY way. So what if its not 20/20 x-ray vision, your still getting knowledge that it would normally take 4-5 ap to get out and back into your EHB building for free. Survivors dont need a 4-5 ap advantage.--Kuddles 18:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
3. Spam - What part of no X ray vision did you find it so very hard to understand? --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 06:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   The part about why we zombies are allowed to have Feeding Groans and Scent Death if there's a "no X-ray vision" policy. I'm a dedicated zombie myself. I wouldn't be making this suggestion if I thought it would overly-help survivors - especially given the fact that survivors currently outnumber zombies. -- Mordac the Refuser 16:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

4. X-RAY Part of the fun is NOT knowing how many are out there. Yes it's more "realistic" to be able to know by peeking through slats or windows. And THAT is what they do in the movies! How is it NOT X-Ray vision? The main problem is this give survivors an advantage that zombies can't match Zombies have to break down the barricades to get to the meat inside. What if there IS no meat? That's barricade strafing, the first survivor advantage. Now, with this, survivors can escape via Free Running (or even a regular exit) because they KNOW the shit is about to, possibly, hit the fan. I wanted to vote kill, at best, I really did. I could see potential at first. But as I typed this, I realized the game is NOT designed for that kind of theatrics. The reason it is scary in the movies is because the survivors CAN'T leave. In Malton they can. VERY easily in a lot of cases. I wanted to say kill because I thought it could work if there were, say a % per number of zombies of people inside noticing. I thought it might offset the "X-Ray" thing a little if it had a variable.--Pesatyel 09:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Spam - It's complete X-Ray. It allows free information that would normally cost AP to find out. Currently survivors have to find a free running entry point, go into the open (risking being 'locked out' if someone over-cades when they're out), look at the building in question (giving active zombies a chance to attack/infect/gain XP from them) and return safely with this info. This suggestion removes that and is a massive buff. It is x-ray, all Mordac's rebuttals are strawmen as those examples cost AP, whereas his suggestion is a free action. -- Iscariot 21:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Given how voting is going, I feel the need to expand my vote with the following justifications for when this comes to Kevan's attention:

   1. It's a free action. Free actions are bad. If speaking takes AP, then why does this not?

   2. It's not obvious, regardless of what the supporters say. Any real person could see someone with one HP due to, you know, the amount of blood and holes in their body. In the game however you require a skill, gained through XP to access this information. This is for game balance.

   3. It's a survivor buff through an unnecessary improvement. Survivors can already get this information by simply going outside and having a look. If they're too lazy...

   4. You ready for this? It's Not In Genre. Read that again, not in genre. Unlike anyone else I will now provide proof:

   Dawn of The Dead (Remake) - Hundreds of zombies outside. Can anyone tell me how many you hear when they go to confront the guy who kept his zombie girlfriend tied up?

   Shaun of The Dead - How many do you hear when Shaun climbs into Liz's flat?

   28 Days Later -- When they're sleeping in that tower block, how many do you hear?

   Resident Evil -- A massive horde outside the Red Queen's control area. How many do you hear?

   Day of The Dead -- Hundreds outside that military bunker. How many do you hear in the scientist's office?

   If you haven't guessed the answer is NONE. In genre they get that information by doing other stuff than sitting in their buildings and getting it for free (DOTD (R) - They go on the roof, binocular use anyone? Ditto for SOTD. 28DL - They risk going outside. RE - they get their info from people returning from the outside. DOTD - (the very inspiration for forts in this game) they send people outside). The stuff they do would cost AP. When they do realise that there are a load of zombies outside, it's usually because of an attempted attack, something you currently get for free with barricade levels. When characters in genre are inside a building without zombies, you hear nothing. You have to go outside or be under attack to learn this information. Both attacks and going outside are already covered in this game, which makes this suggestion pointless. -- Iscariot 20:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

   So, what would you call binoculars, NecroTech Scans, Feeding Groans, Scent Death, or the Urban Dead Wiki? If this an "X-Ray" it's a very weak "X-Ray" as it only tells users that there are 50 or more zombies outside. A complete X-Ray would tell EXACTLY how many zombies were outside. This isn't like that at all. -- Mordac the Refuser 22:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Shouldn't you move all that stuff you just edited above to the Talk page? -- Mordac the Refuser 20:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

   No. I may alter, change or expand my vote at anytime. I have chosen to do this. -- Iscariot 20:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

   So, do you agree that this is probably going to go into the Peer Review Section then? -- Mordac the Refuser 20:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

   Would you like to tell everybody what the difference is between all of those examples and your suggestion? -- Iscariot 22:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

   Discussion moved to talk page. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

6. I am on a voting spree, but to make this vote valid, I'm in agreement with those above. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 20:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   What kind of an explanation is this???? -- Mordac the Refuser 21:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   It means I skimmed the suggestion, and since I was in a hurry to vote on every single suggestion that was currently under voting, I said I agree with everyone above me, in the Spam and Kill section at least. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 00:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

   So, you actually believe this "X-Ray" stuff the minority is complaining about? Well, have fun then. -- Mordac the Refuser 00:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC) One RE per vote. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 20:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

7. But MY x-ray goggles don't work... - Needs more cowbell <_< --/~Rakuen~\ 23:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   Uhhhhh... what? -- Mordac the Refuser 23:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

   you heard the man, more cowbell!!!--Jack ^{S13 T! PC} 17:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC) Non-author RE struck. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 18:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

8. Spam. As above. Magnum Odus 16:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
9. Spam - I hate to do this, because I love the idea of more flavor text and atmosphere, but they're right. This is X-Ray Vision. --Diano 20:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)