UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/Jack's Cold Sweat vs TZH

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Jack's Cold Sweat Vs. TZH

NOTE Due to another arbitration case found here the ruling for this case has been considered null and not binding. This is because of a ruling which stated that this case was not conducted properly by the arbiter. Due to this ruling, it would be wrong for the ruling of this case to be enforced. While this sets a precedent for further rulings to be challenged the arbiter strongly advises caution in challenging other rulings, as the case would have to prove that either the ruling or the method of the arbiter was wrong or insufficient to the degree that it undermined the workings of arbitration or undermined the workings of the wiki as a whole.--SeventythreeTalk 13:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


TZH is a hostile group. They routinely PK survivors potentially anywhere in Malton, but generally around North and South Blythville. Reasons? Oh they've no need of those. http://flickr.com/photos/8319332@N03/ A flickr gallery with many TZH pks, of a group not at war with them that never did anything to them, and a gallery of all the ones which were submitten to RG for bounty submittion were accepted. http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Team_Zombie_Hardcore/Bravo_Squad#Action_Shots.21_Get_Some.21 a link to an element of their OWN WIKI where they are shown Pk'ing survivors and bragging about it (in an increadibly gay and humiliating fashion). I will also search for the Rogue's Gallery links to their insane and inane rambling threads where they describe their desire to PK freely outside of the Rogue's Gallery system, and begin crying when they're told that's not how it works. My case is simple, since they PK survivors, frequently, capriciously, even wantonly, they're the very definition of a group hostile to survivors.--Jack's Cold Sweat 22:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I offer to arbitrate.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  22:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

As do I. Purely because I haven't done a case in ages. -- Cheeseman W!RandomTalk 23:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I also put my hand up for arbitor.--'BPTmz 23:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to be sure, you accept me as an arbitrator?  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  13:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Sure. Works for me. --Jack's Cold Sweat 21:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Addressing the matter of the non-war. 1. It's a stupid waste of ap that could otherwise be spent discussing the merits of Russ Meyer movies with IAmDracula in Pippard. 2. With the trivial system set up to screenshot then add to a flickr gallery (which unfortunately needs to then be converted to imageshack for brainstock, why bother with a war which will destabilize Pippard? TZH is more than willing to antagonize Redrum, or whomever, in addition to many individuals working with DEM. It's trivial to ask for a revive via IM or just wait 5 minutes at Gee. Let them burn ap searching for ammo to fuel their delusions which we are powerless ot affect anyway. That of course is irrelevant. TZH pks survivors for no reason beyond whatever transpires, unknowable, in their tortured imaginations. Thus, consistant with their activity, they should be labled as hostile to survivors. A consequence of their erratic behavior. In the flickr gallery posted and referenced there are screenshots of them killing random survivors. Usually "by the order of TZH high command." Should anyone wish, I can break these out to save the bother of browsing through some 50+ TZH pk's.--Jack's Cold Sweat 05:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
TZH's use of AP is TZH business, and none of your concern. We believe in the plight of the BRRC. We feel that the MSC had no right in game to do what they did, in taking over the BRRC, griefing and PKing BRRC members, and using the NT for their own purposes. As such, we have taken up conflict, again, ONLY against the MSC to right what TZH percieves as a grievous wrong.--Dhavid Grohl 17:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree to enter arbitration with Jack's Cold Sweat, but I would invoke the rest of the "Malton Skeet Club" as well. All the evidence that Jack speaks of is the result of a war against the MSC and its members. Even now Brainstock and RG officials are repealing, not accepting new reports, or appealing old reports of alleged "PK's" done by TZH which were in fact acts of war. TZH is still in conflict with MSC, and will be actively pursuing its members, and ONLY its members (as we don't attack innocent survivors). Thanks for your consideration. I would also like to officially accept "Nalikill" or "Karek" either one of which is familiar with this case and has been following Jack's Cold Sweats illegal wiki activities as of late. For the record, I would also like to ask for the help of "Gnome" as per the suggestions of Nalikill if Gnome will give it. Thanks a ton. --Dhavid Grohl 23:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Getting the Case Started

First order of business was to move all non-directly related comments to the talk page, to make it easier to see the meat of the case.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  21:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Second off, a few things to start with: TZH will refrain from posting on MSC pages for the duration of the case, as MSC will refrain from TZH pages. If you want to argue, argue it out on the talk page of Arbitration- but I don't want arguments here, only evidence.

Thirdly, I want to see any evidence you have- for TZH members, that means profile links to the offensive profiles, screenshots of their actions against you, etc. For MSC members, it's been established that they're PK'ing you, but they claim justification for this and all other of their PK'er actions. So here's what I want to see from the MSC:

All screenshots where TZH has PK'ed without announcing their justification, and where it has not been for a group they were were at war with

And I have no authority over this, but I would reccomend that you stop your in-game PK'ing as well, for the duration of the case, for the sake of trying to settle this. I would say that, beginning this case, I consider the weight of burden to weigh on both sides, but most heavily on MSC's shoulders, as they're trying to change the status of one of the oldest, most well established survivor groups.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  21:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I will also heavily consider the status of the appeals on Brainstock; so if an outcome is reached on those, please post that under the evidence section.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  21:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

TZH Evidence

Forthcoming, although likely not until Sunday afternoon. I have a wedding I am the Best-Man in, in RL, and a final tomorrow. Sorry for the delay. --Dhavid Grohl 23:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Quite alright. Real life comes first. Take your time.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  23:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The Happy Shopper killed TZH member Kiiro unprovoked. Insancipitory admitted in game to spraying anti-TZH sprays, as well as he sided with the MSC in the war. Some screenshots are here:

Happy Shopper Killing Kiiro

Kiiro Wee Penis' Profile Screenshot, observe the racism Creation date right at the time we were fighting MSC the first time

Recent report by some dude we don't know, our member happened to see

Profile link for EricHerboso. He's never been PK'd by anyone I've ever seen. down around October 5th more or less represents the sum total of the conversations the Malton Skeet Club has had with Eric. He's since relocated to St. George's Hospital (2 blocks from Pippard) where loads up on faks and finds people to heal. Which is where he is currently.--Jack's Cold Sweat 03:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, if anyone here can gain access to the RG forum/thread titled "TZH" which is locked, that would work too. I know the password, but I think its privileged so you should talk to a mod. I recommend Raharu. He's a great guy to start with. Within that thread there is a GREAT post from Father Thompson, and while he says that our case to have our records REMOVED, he does admit that almost all of our PK's are against MSC members (again, meaning we ONLY kill them). There are a few other PK's that were reported, also detailed here, but of course its natural for a zealous group of 40+ member to have a few bounties over 3 years of existence is completely reasonable.

Consider too our following friendly group allies:
-Tompson Mall Security
-Olney Militia
-Bandit Queens
- South-West Alliance
-Lockettside Defense Squad
-Green Street Elite
-The Fortress
-V16 (When they existed)

And now for those groups with which we are not friendly: (TZH makes no apologies for killing members of these groups)
-Malton Skeet Club <- No wiki page.
-Late Night TV Crue <- unrepentant PKer group that initiated conflict with us. A hostile group.

They've started killing TZH in Pippard. Which was sort of surprising given what was written in reply to Nalikill on my wiki talk page.--Jack's Cold Sweat 00:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

-Creedy Guerilla Raiders <- Allegedly hired by the MSC, and killing us because we were "griefing" the MSC. Also a member of the PKA and themselves a hostile group.

This forum, created by Jack, on brainstock, AFTER arbitration had begun is interesting. I find it curious that he felt the need to take an in game disagreement to the wiki, and then take the wiki argument to Brainstock. Please observe the flaming that has already begun on the part of the MSC. Something I believe I mentioned would likely happen (and the reason that they have the REAL forum locked from those such as the MSC:

Brainstock "Notice" created by Jack's Cold Sweat --Dhavid Grohl 01:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

More later :) --Dhavid Grohl 00:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Tell me when you've put up all your evidence. I went into this with an idea of what I was going to do, and it seems thus far that all of everyone's evidence is confirming what I believe.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  04:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually Nalikill, I don't have much else to say, nor do I have the time. I am starting my surgery clerkship for my third year of medical school tomorrow, and I need to do well. I will try, but thats pretty much all I have. The real statement here is that we have a problem with MSC members, they have a record of griefing that can be found with a simple google.com search. They griefed TZH (we claim, and is true) so we initiated the war. Only with MSC. Other individuals have decided to start stuff since then and before then, and when stuff was started, we finished it. Bottom line. Sounds isolationist and defensive, not hostile to me.--Dhavid Grohl 05:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so PN Lenny PKed TZH members. EvilRed is a member of the Tompson Mall Security, he also PKed TZH members. We are now friends of theirs funny enough, and allied with the TMS! Haha. Hangrah Hrangah PKed someone in NB (I remember that one). TeeksMcKillsALot was a member of MSC at the time (his profile group was "Malto Skeet Club"... Everyone in the screenshot taken by "I'm Rick James Bitch" was an MSC member at the time (that was a good day for us in the war)... and of course in the interest of maximizing spin, JCS has double posted many of those PK's as if to make it seem that there are more than there are. For instance, the Private Steeeve PK is listed there twice, once from his perspective and once from another (or maybe it was Sgt. Steeeve... whatever). Hardly fair play.--Dhavid Grohl 05:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

MCS Evidence

1. We're not at war with them. We've never been at war with them. There was a thread to this effect on brainstock where we indicated we were more than happy to just let them kill us and rack up bounties. If you want any of the Brainstock evidence, let us know, we'll link it here. It's our position there is no justification, they're just griefing, and now they're trying to manufacture one over a concluded war we had with the BRRC well over a year ago. 2. Screenshot of TZH pk'ing an innocent survivor [1] and again [2] TZH persecution of The Happy Shopper [3] no idea who this guy getting killed by the TZH is [4]. Insancipitory is someone we came to know. Basically he'd just sit in Pippard, revive people and chat, before he stopped playing. [5] another PK of that guy TeeksMcKillsALot, no idea who that is. It should be noted that these are just pics of people getting pk'd more or less with us. We didn't make a mess of scouts and plant them in the Malls recording every TZH PK. They'd literally loaded up to PK us, decided to PK these other people too as targets of opportunity.

3. Do their accepted bounty totals count against them? Surely if they are prolific PK'ers that should count for something?

4. All PK's against us aren't to be considered in their one sided war, correct? Shouldn't they have to provide some evidence that we did ANYTHING to them to justify their actions? Failing that, doesn't that then make their one sided war proof of hostility towards survivors?

1. None of the screenshots of you or any other MSC member being PK'ed count, as, again, they've declared war on you. Even if you haven't declared war back on them, you're still at war. So no pictures of MSC being PK'ed count.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  22:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
And it said I had no permission to view [1] [2] [3], so remedy this, please, or upload the images to the wiki. And please, if you have it, give me Insancipitory's ID number, as well as The Happy Shopper's.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  22:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe [Insancipitory] said something about how it's fruitless to PK (he was big on river tactics) so they PK'd him repeatedly. He hasn't played in quite sometime, maybe a year or more. The Happy Shopper I don't have, that stems from something of well known speech in Marven Mall, supposedly they PK'd him many times over a short period because they thought he was Malton Skeet Club, we swore up and down on brainstock he had nothing to do with us, they kept killing him anyway. I believe we submitted that one on his behalf. Working on the picture thing. Pics that were marked private turn out not to matter as per #4.--Jack's Cold Sweat 22:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
And I only want a link to brainstock if their appeal of your being PK'ed has finished. And their body totals DO NOT count, because those are how many PK'ers and griefers they claim to have PK'ed; if they had an "Innocent Survivors Killed" statistic, that would be acceptable.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  22:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not exactly well versed on the operation of RG. We pretty much just fire our pk reports and forget. But I thought that if a PK reported a PK it went towards lowering their bounty, so that in effect a bounty total for a profile was an innocents killed statistic. I of course may be mistaken about this.--Jack's Cold Sweat 22:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't count because they're appealing the RG cases.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  22:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

But Insancipitory and The Happy Shopper are interesting. Does TZH have a reason for killing him? And what group were the two associated with? (Speaking to TZH; don't repspond to this point, Jack.)  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  22:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You've posted your screenshots, now let's wait for TZH to respond.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  22:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay. They've given their reasons for killing those people; they should've announced it ingame where they didn't, but that' not enough of a faux pas to get them filed as a PK'er group. 04:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you have any further evidence to back up your claim?  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  04:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, TZH, you know the drill. Why did you kill Private Steeeve? Image:TZHvJCS.jpg  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  04:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah, wait, I see a potential explanation on Brainstock. I'll just need TZH to confirm or deny for me. Link to Brainstock thread Last post on the page.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  04:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
And on the wiki, Section 13 has a grievance against him too. So it looks like Private Steeeve is a PK'er in disguise, or at least an overzealous bounty hunter.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  04:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Steeeve and all of his zergs have long pursued conflict with TZH. We have been fighting him for nearly a year since he PKed a noob in our headquarters, allegedly for attacking him. Neither he, nor we, have screenshots of any of this. Although, we confirm what was said on brainstock.--Dhavid Grohl 05:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Those PK's of alts of Steve can be explained as a result of the zeal of TZH, and their policy of attacking all a person's alts. PN Lenny is a well known PK'er. I'll ask TZH to explain the others; three through five, I believe they were?  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  05:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
That was really fast! I didn't even link that to anything yet. Did you want me to add all the pictures to that category? And you could comment on those pics you wish to exclude etc if you're so moved. I would think a pattern of unusual zealotry and of hunting alts all over Malton (Yagton? really?) would sort of point to an abnormal level of hostility to survivors incidentally.--Jack's Cold Sweat 06:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think so, because this particular player has pursued TZH with multiple alts, making what he did zerging (especially when he did it in adjacent suburbs on the same day). Because he pursued us with his zergs, we hunted down all Steeeve zergs, as explained on Brainstock.--Dhavid Grohl 05:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Go ahead and add them all to that category. And when I make my ruling, I plan to address that issue. But for now, I'll say that you have to consider TZH's reputation among survivor groups if you want to properly interpret their "zealousness."  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  14:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, major update to the TZH screenshot category. There are the old screenshots previously linked to flickr. There are a couple new ones of them PK'ing in Pippard after you'd asked them not to, and even more inexplicably they're pk'ing someone who they saw join the BRRC as opposed to just me. The post arbitration PK's in Pippard are also put in a new subcategory so you can break them out should you decide not to consider them. It just seems to me, at some point, their "zealousness" becomes synonymous with "hostile".--Jack's Cold Sweat 22:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, I object to the title of this WIKI subsection, it smells of "guilty until proven innocent" and represents some considerable subjectivity of title considering the supposedly objective nature of this wiki arbitration.--Dhavid Grohl 05:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Again, no deal here. We never claimed that we were going to stop killing MSC members. This WIKI ARBITRATION has NO BEARING on our in game status with your group. Again, we are killing only MSC members, or those that openly ally with the MSC (allies are fair game in war aren't they?). So unless this arbitration decides that war between two groups, when reason is given, is enough for changing a categorization AGAINST the wishes of the group...) --Dhavid Grohl 05:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ruling

1. MSC and TZH will refrain from interfacing with each other by user or group talk pages, until they mutually declare the war over. They may still use community talk pages; but each is ordered to refrain from editing the main page as a method of taunting or communicating to the other group.

2.TZH is very strongly urged to use forums and diplomacy to settle being offended, rather than PK'ing in game, if they wish these things not to happen in the future, and to report them to the Rogue's gallery instead or to hire a mercenary where the Rogue's gallery would be innapropriate. If TZH fails to do this, much less leniency will likely be shown toward them if this case comes up again.

3.TZH is ordered to apologize for undue escalation of violence.

4.MSC is ordered to apologize for the racist character name.

5.MSC is ordered to refrain from changing the status of other groups.

A group's status is defined by 2 things: The collective value of its deeds, and their intentions in their actions. Once, the Philosophe knights fought the zombies; I cannot remember where, but they did so temporarily when they took offense. But that didn't recategorize them as pro-survivor. Similarly, TZH has worked harder to impede zombies and PK'ers than it has aided them, so it is a survivor group. For my second requirement, anything TZH did wrong can be attributed to the fog of war- the inability to know exactly what your opponent's intentions are, so they decided to err against the side of caution; an unwise decision, but an understandable one.

TZH, I understand where you're coming from: a very strong sense of team loyalty, which I respect. All the same, you are overzealous in your revenge policy, and I urge you to tone it down, if they wish to avoid these cases in the future.

MSC, I understand where you are coming from; you don't believe this war is justified, and so you decided to make an edit to relieve your frustration; but in the future, an apology might get things over much more quickly and with far less pain. Like Mom always said, apologize, even if you're wrong. If you're right, an apology doesn't make you any less right, and if you're wrong, it helps to alleviate the mistake.

Try to place yourselves in the other's shoes for just a moment.

MSC, imagine someone had created a racist character to mock your group.

And TZH, imagine if you'd been sitting and cading and killing zombies, and out of nowhere a group comes in and claims you've offended one of their members and start killing you at random, wherever they see you.

If you have any complaints, I'm listening, if there's some technical detail I messed up on or that you want relaxed, or you want strengthened, but the basic essence of the ruling will remain the same- "TZH=overreacting, MSC=wrong to change status of TZH."  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  20:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Addendum:TZH has brought to my attention the Pippard building. MSC is strongly requested and strongly advised to move to another NT building- there's plenty to go 'round in South Blyville.  Nalikill  TALK  E!  W!  M!  USAI  00:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
MSC Apology

I presume you're referring to the Kiiro's Wee Penis thing? Not our character. No idea who that is. Can't do anything about whatever other people do. So here's the apology: I'm personally deeply saddened that one of the many people who've taken it upon themselves to grief the TZH by creating a character named Kiiro's Wee Penis, that poses as a Mexican lawyer and doctor. I can understand how the concept of a Mexican lawyer doctor is insulting to the great Mexican race, and people everywhere who love and respect their rich culture.

--Jack's Cold Sweat 22:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

TZH Pre-Apology Statement

I of course will still fulfill my end of the arbitration (in representation of TZZ), including apology, once the Malton Skeet Club leaves the Pippard building for good, allowing the BRRC to return in their old/preferred capacity, this is despite the fact that MSC continues to deny what we know to be true regarding Kiiro's Wee Penis, their racist alt. MSC has apologized (Through JCS), and while roundabout, an apology is an apology. The instant this conflict is over, TZH will harbor NO ill will towards the MSC. We will even go so far as to extend our hands in friendship. We believe that the other three NT buildings in South Blyth are in need of guarding, with the possible exception of the Hazeldine NT thanks to the THC. Upon a Malton Skeet Club withdrawl from Pippard, and an appropriate public announcement both in game and on the wiki (since, thanks to JCS, this is a wiki matter now as well) has been made. We have long hoped to come to some kind of resolution with the MSC, and we are glad to see that Nalikill made the decisions he did. Nalikill will have the full backing of every member of TZH in this and future arbitration. You were right Nalikill, once reason and civility are used with us, one finds us to be the staunchest of friends. However, we are concerned with the evidence that JSC and Chimera are zergers, while we would love to extend our hands in friendship to the MSC in general, if these zerging allegations are judged to be true (and we aren't the ones judging THAT one), we will have no choice but to remain in ill standing with the MSC, and unable to ally with them, or offer our benevolence. Regardless of what we believe, we HOPE that the zerging allegations are false. Best of luck to all in Arbitration, especially Nalikill. --Dhavid Grohl 04:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

An addendum to the above post: I know we aren't supposed to write on eachother's talk pages, but honest to Whalberg I don't know where else to find these guys. And, I considered this a friendly announcement and hopefully not offensive. Merely something that I didn't know could go anywhere else. If you feel that this statement is offensive in any way, please feel free to delete it, or let me know and I will move it to my OWN talk page (I am not narcissistic enough to believe that you check MY page for messages for you ;-))--Dhavid Grohl 04:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
As well as refusing to leave the Pippard building, this page was found: Chimera's Edit in which Chimera has posted, mocking TZH on a page dedicated to "discussion" between TZH and an independent group (Griefer Group STE). I say "discussion" of course because TZH is largely ignoring this particular brand of griefing. However, because it was a matter of "ruling violation" that Chimera would post in regards to TZH on a user talk page, that it should be reported. Thanks.--Dhavid Grohl 06:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
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