UDWiki talk:Administration/Policy Discussion/Terms of Service

Discussion

I agree. I don't think disagreeing is even an option legally speaking. --Thadeous Oakley Talk 23:54, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree too, as previously stated.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 23:54, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

If this is related to the current A/VB case, then adopting the TOU officially isn't the issue, it's defining our own standards that is. The TOU explicitly refer to illegal pornography, which means for anything that isn't illegal, we as a site need to define our own consensus and standard. 23:57, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The vague legal terms are indeed going to be the biggest roadblock in adopting that policy. In order to get a meaningful consensus, we'd need to learn how Poundhost dealt with filling out those terms in the past. -- Spiderzed▋ 23:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The ToS have been used as de facto rules for quite some time now, and I've been meaning to codify them for almost as long. The recent farce served as a catalyst, yes, but this is something that should have been handled long ago. ~ Red Hawk One ^{Talk | space for lease} 00:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I know what you're thinking, obviously illegal like child porn. Still haven't heard any good arguments why this wiki should be turned into a regular porn site though. Though regardless, after the case we'll have a standard. Also lol on getting consensus here. Adopting the TOC as official is a good idea though--Thadeous Oakley Talk 00:04, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Then, to be frankly honest, we need to do more than just codify the pre-existing list. Using it as a basis, this policy discussion should be used to hammer out specifics for UDWiki, before taking that to voting. Poundhost's terms are broad and vague so as to allow hosted sites more leeway with their own rules - keeping within the spirit of them whilst codifying specifics for ourselves is much more prudent than making vague and unwieldy suggestions official. Also, Thad, you are clearly exaggerating. We also allow nabbed intellectual properties to be used but this hasn't turned us into the Pirate Bay. 00:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The point of this proposal is not to decide on the appropriate interpretations of the ToS; that's subjective and is completely up to the ruling sysops. The point of this proposal is to finally acknowledge that there are a series of rules the service provider expects the wiki to comply with. Claiming the low probability of being caught in a breach as justification for ignoring the Terms is a very weak argument. ~ Red Hawk One ^{Talk | space for lease} 00:35, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Which is probably why it's not the argument I'm making. I'm saying adopting these rules as official is a bad move because they're deliberately vague. It adds next to nothing if your "official" rules still need to be interpreted personally time and again by the sysop team. 00:37, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Silly. Its a decision for the client (Kevan) not us. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 00:48, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Would you say Kevan is liable for any content on this wiki? If we were to make that assumption, then it would follow that it is in Kevan's (and the wiki's) best interest to comply with the terms. Given the man's apathy towards urban Dead in general, I'd think it's fair to say he's unlikely to make a ruling. as it is, the TOS have already been treated as policy by numerous users on numerous cases, so all this is doing is putting common practice on paper. ~ Red Hawk One ^{Talk | space for lease} 00:59, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Kevan has said in the past that he wanted the sysops to come up with rules to govern that sort of thing, and he was leaving it in their hands. As you can see, nothing happened. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Isn't this sorta implied? -MHSstaff 17:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

You would think it would be, however, this is not the case. Sadly, this policy will likely be demolished, as the general user could care less about the TOS. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

my boobies had better be off limits goddammit!--

bitch 04:29 10 March 2011 (UTC)

You mean my boobies?--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 18:54, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

technically yes. but i had to reload the image so i could use it as a link in mah sig.. so now they my boobies. still love you're hairy man boobs tho.--

bitch 14:34 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Policy on the run

policy said:

In order to minimize this liability, the Terms of Service will be adopted as official wiki policy, and any violations of said terms will be treated with the same severity as violations of existing policy.

By agreeing to this, we are basically giving over control of wiki policy to a bunch of lawyers who have no idea of the site. They write in all sorts of weird small print that can be interpreted in multiple ways, especially by the more "creative" amoung us. We should endevour to comply with the obvious, but use common sense in most things, and not tie ourselves to ambiguous lawyer speak, that isn't specifically designed for this site -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 02:02 14 February 2011 (BST)

Exactly. It'll give pests all the fuel to launch drama fests, when a lot of even the TOU takes interpretation. Good example? case where someone cries racism. We look at the case at hand on its own merits, well aware of the TOU, and rule Not Vandalism, does that mean we should be misconducted for breaking the TOU? Oh yeah, we were, and it was not misconduct. The system isn't entirely bad the way it is, but I'm worried about the pressure this will put on ops to rule in ways they won't feel is necessary. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 04:36, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Having said that, I won't mind if this were to pass if all it does it just legitimise what we already do in terms of TOU violations. But if it doesn't change anything, then there really isn't a reason to go to effort to have it in there, since it's unlikely things will change (as the recent case, despite its drama and discussion, has pretty much proved). I'd suggest we ask Kevan and get his opinion on how much control he wants us to have over the wikis content and Poundhouse's TOU. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 04:40, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

1.20

"YOU agree not to use the service to do any of the following and it is expressly agreed between US and YOU that if there is any breach of this Clause 1.19 may, without notice and without obligation to pay compensation apply service credits or refund any monies, suspend restrict or terminate your service"

Quite frankly, we have to be proactive in enforcing the TOS, because if we violate the TOS, and the company finds out, there may be no notice whatsoever and this website gets turned off. While I'm guessing the only real way the TOS will get enforced is if someone rats us out to Poundhouse, but I believe that a little wiki drama is fine to prevent us holding this sort of liability. Better to be safe than not. Granted, clause 1.20 (J) showcase that Poundhouse can turn us off at any time they like if they feel that what we are doing "is likely to bring the service into disrepute", so really, we have no real defense.---ShadowScope^{'the true enemy'} 07:37, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Of course they have a clause like that but in reality I highly doubt they use it for anything like this wiki. That'd be more for huge issues like websites designed just to host illegally obtained private information or highly controversial/illegal content. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 09:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Pass this policy, and demand enforcement by the letter of the TOS, and you may as well shut down everything on this wiki appart from the factual game info. Every day of the week you'll have whiners coming on demanding threats, abuse, harrassment, defamation be removed on the most tenuous reasoning. Some people take the besmirching of their online personas very seriously. Should that mean that they can't be told that they are a joke, for fear of it being labelled as abuse or defamation? Without clear definitions of what they consider "vulgar" or "obscene", for example, how can we treat it any different than we do already? OTT obsenity/vulgarity is deleted as vandalism... raciness is allowed if it is in context. Lawyers love black and white proclomations, we need to take into account the grey areas, and deal with them on a case by case basis -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 10:15 14 February 2011 (BST)

I've been a sysop for the worst parts of the TOU arguments, at least regarding the bloody porn and racism debates, and I may be a bit thrown off by bias but I think for the most part we've done a pretty good job as far as enforcing the TOU before it hits the point of just removing reasonable stuff. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 10:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Incidentally I love the fact that the TOU specifies illegal pornography. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Going with the UK definition of illegal porn you've got a bit with (b) an act which results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to a person’s anus, breasts or genitals. =p -- Cheese 16:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Poundhouse are UK which means that's the language for their contract.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 16:32, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Great. Now we need an expert on Anal injury. Anyone? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 16:45, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Offences against the persons Act 1861 - That IS serious injury.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 16:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Self harm? Interesting. UK Citizen? Perhaps. But less interesting than this; In the time its taken to discuss whether or not a single image might contravene the TOU the case has already been dealt with by the admin team and closed. There's no need to add further bureaucracy. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 16:58, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

continue?

Curious to hear some peoples summaries from the above conversations. Think this is worth putting to vote or continuing? Personally, I'm against it. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 00:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

It would circumvent some potential headaches for Kevan, but I think the big question is: If it passes, is the sysop team prepared to enforce it? --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 01:32, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Let it die. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:07, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

2 weeks are up? Check. No one's actively discussing anymore? Check. Time for some game of scheduled tagging and bagging. If people still want to tackle this by the policy angle, they can always start a new PD. -- Spiderzed▋ 18:15, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

That's what I expected. ;) --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 01:00, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Lol. I would obviously begrudgingly enforce it, because that's my job. But I'd wait for the 3 following months of anarchy before putting forward a proposal to revoke it via A/PD. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 05:36, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Just because the Poundhost's TOS states: Upload, post or otherwise transmit any Third Party Content that you do not have a right to transmit under Law or under contractual or fiduciary relationships. and Upload, post or otherwise transmit any Third Party Content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights of any party. and if the policy is enacted, the majority of users would spaz out when all of their copyrighted images would be summarily deleted and anyone who attempts to re-upload without express permission from the copyright holder is taken to A/VB? Of course, at any time Poundhost could terminate Kevan's website without notice, and Kevan requested that the sysops hammer out some sort of compliance with the TOS, so it's a sort of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Eh.... They could terminate his site without notice, but what are the chances of them doing it when they could have done it any day for the last 5 years, and havent? -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 22:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Depends. Has anyone reported the site for violating the ToS? Probably not. Could someone do so, and could they pull it? Sure. Of course, on the TOS talk page, you can see that Karek mentions that Kevan did ask the sysop team to enact some sort of policy involving the TOS from poundhost. Did the sysops at the time enact anything? No. The whole thing was sort of dropped as unresolved. That's a common trend. Kevan asks for something, leaves it up to the sysops to enact and enforce, but nothing happens. I suppose that most users feel that "nothing could possibly happen", and even if it does happen, it's not like it is happening to them, right? After all, Kevan is the one liable. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

By factor of it being on this server it is automatically bound by the terms of service and while Kevan isn't liable necessarily for third party contributions he, and by extension the sysops, are required legally to enforce it and address any grievances in regards to it when they are brought to light. Were they to not do so then the site would be held in fault and risk removal. There's no need for a policy in regards to that very simple fact of life beyond adding to the Administration guidelines a statement to that fact. --Karek^maps?! 00:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

^This is correct. Since Kevan is leaving it up to the sysop team (administration staff) by not doing anything, and there is no one on the administration team who is actively following those guidelines, the UDwiki is liable, and can be shut down. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 02:29, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder how long it will take someone to do this or if there's anyone willing to take the risk. I don't really know what the current Sysop team is like as a group yet. --Karek^maps?! 02:25, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Put this to vote? Someone= You? That's gotta be more constructive than to have the same three users being ignored on the talk page for a week :| -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 03:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't tell if you're being sarccy or not, but I'd vote for this if it went up.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 08:59, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Better get ready to schedule delete 90% of the wiki then! -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 09:28, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

90% of the wiki... and 99% of the internet -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 13:53 12 March 2011 (BST)

Better that then 100% gets deleted.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 14:24, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Would open a lot more diskspace for those groups you guys like to delete.--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 23:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Still no indication that 100% will ever get deleted :| -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 03:55, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh and now I think about, I think you're wrong. I'd rather the whole thing go than have a wiki with nothing but drama filled administration pages and 1 danger map. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 04:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstand, there is no vote. This is not something you vote on, this is something that is and that those users named sysops should already and always have been doing. This isn't for those three users here, one of which chose not to be a sysop any longer, to enact, it's for those who are to add notice off to existing policy. Do it, don't do it, whatever but you don't get to act like a policy vote changes that this is a de facto required rule for the existence of the wiki. The only difference is whether or not you provide users notice that you do/may have to do this. --Karek^maps?! 07:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It's nice you think that, but others don't seem to, else we would have much more discussion here. And, to be honest, I think you tend to be skewing a lot of facts to make it sound like its the sysop's obligation. It's been established that this is never going to happen without any drastic change, ie a policy discussion vote. Should this be insta-implemented for the benefit of the wiki? Maybe, maybe not? It's up to interpretation. As are votes. If you feel so strongly about it, put it to vote. If you think it shouldn't have to but should be implemented, I honestly disagree with you, but I guess that ties in with my point. Personally, Kevan has never addressed me as a user or a sysop to enact such a change, and if he did I may consider changing my position, but the huge amount of inaction from both him, our host, and the community is more than enough for me to believe this is not necessary in the eyes of stakeholders it affects most. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 10:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The facts aren't really something that can be skewed here. I don't know if you weren't present in any of the multiple cases that have come up but maybe this is a good reminder of why I'm saying what I'm saying. This is also a very nice summation of the same why the nonissue argument is deceptive. And this is me offering to do it for you so you can't complain about the size of the deletions, I'll do them myself with that being the sole thing I do if need be but it needs to be done and it needs to be added to the policies through either the Carte Blanche owner perogative or the Judgement of non-policy policy. It's simply unarguable knowing all the facts to claim that there haven't been legitimate issues from lax enforcement of this.--Karek^maps?! 02:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The first one is from 06 and as far as I'm aware Kevan hasn't given any indication that he's still worried about this issue, at least in the time I've been here, hence my call of inaction. If I'm wrong, bring him here for said carte blanche but until then, I'm not pulling out requests from 5 years ago and supporting their insta-implementation over policy, even if it's kevan, and especially when I disagree with it in the first place. As for the other discussion, all that happened was it degraded into the same conversation we're having here- 1 or 2 of the same users as the last 5 years worth of copyright discussion trudging along, the community not caring enough to jump in. I'm still not really convinced. And you may think this should be implemented straight away, that's great but without being disrespectful, I think you're one of the very few who do and until we get a)waves of support for the idea, or b)Kevan specifically requesting it, I highly doubt I'll change my mind, lest those required to support it. -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 02:43, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

This shouldn't even be a discussion or a vote. It should be automatic policy, but then again, the udwikipeople believed in the policy of "its okay as long as we don't get caught, because it doesn't hurt anybody." --THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 23:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

^Absolutely Positively. --Karek^maps?! 04:11, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Amusingly enough, I would say that this belief by the various wiki users applies to about every case that appears in A/VB. Yet for some reason the sysop team follows those rules. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 02:29, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Awaiting Kevan's Response/Wishes

I guess now we wait and see....--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 03:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Cycling?

About 6 weeks have passed since the last activity on this page, and Kevan hasn't reacted in any way. (Despite obviously having looked at the wiki, given the recent software update.) Unless it gets kicked off again, I'll protect and cycle the PD this weekend. -- Spiderzed█ 20:37, 28 April 2011 (BST)