UDWiki talk:Administration/Policy Discussion/Community Sysop Demotion

Discuss, ladies and Germs fans. --WanYao 21:34, 18 July 2009 (BST)

Power

The community needs it. I am all for stopping the current system that pretty much grants sysops status for life. It should be possible for the community to force a sysops to get re-evaluated through the A/Promotions system. --Thadeous Oakley 21:58, 18 July 2009 (BST)

Reasonable.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 22:26, 18 July 2009 (BST)

The way I see it the actual problem is the very idea that it is a promotion in the first place. It is not, it is a sign that other wiki users think you can be trusted not to abuse additional responsibilities that you have volunteered to take on. Rather than a system for "demotion" I think it would be better for all sysops to face automatic reviews on a schedule not too dissimilar to the Crat elections. --Honestmistake 22:27, 18 July 2009 (BST)

Maybe stagger it so that every six months all sysops who have served more than 6 months and aren't bureaucrats go through a reaffirmation of confidence? --Darth Sensitive ^W! 22:36, 18 July 2009 (BST)

The problem there might be that we need to vote yes/no on like 7 different sysops in one row.--Thadeous Oakley 22:53, 18 July 2009 (BST)

The idea of a regular sysop "review" has been shot down too many times before... This is something a little different: it's not an annual report, it's a procedure specifically for recalling/demoting sysops who have lost the trust of the community. Nothing more, nothing less. --WanYao 23:02, 18 July 2009 (BST)

When? If you are talking about mine I withdrew that on my own. It wasn't shot down at all.--– Nubis ^NWO 23:10, 18 July 2009 (BST)

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!! --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 23:38, 18 July 2009 (BST)

i ;iekes giviong peoples power bnut thi s smells funny to me. DUNNO why but i'll be sober dtommowew qnd reply the n . kthzbai -- Cheese 03:00, 19 July 2009 (BST) P

you have a way with words cheesy <3 --xoxo 15:35, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Voting

I hate voting. You can not make voting fair. If you say there are edit requirements before you can vote in a sysop demotion then that's unfair to new users and the requirements would have to be strict enough to matter. If you don't limit it in any way then you can get meat puppets. If you make it required to be justified then you get the risk of LOLZ DO NOT WANT or other shit. Even with the cooling off period (which I think more policies need) you can not make demotion a popular vote. --– Nubis ^NWO 23:10, 18 July 2009 (

I actually tend to agree with you as regards a straight vote. I am not against some pretty harsh voting requirements but at the end of the day I would prefer a method that left the final decision to the serving Crats, they already have final say on sysop promotions so its not really a stretch and should hopefully give unpopular sysops a court of appeal if they feel they are being ousted only because folks don't like the rules. --Honestmistake 00:21, 19 July 2009 (BST)

As I keep saying.... it's patently obvious, nubis, how you loathe and look down on the average wiki user... they're not as smart or capable as YOU, and certainly can't be trusted with ANY power or responsibiliy, not like YOU can be... and they certainly can't be trusted to make the right decision to demote a shyte sysop, nope, NEVER. See, this kids is why unrestricted "self-policing" a bad idea... in the real world, and in wiki-land. This kind of self-serving arrogance needs some kind of checks and balances. --WanYao 03:39, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Can you actually try reading things instead of getting all WIKI SYSOP RAGE RAWR!!!? I want a fair voting policy. Do you not recall that I have written policy on sysop reviews including demotion procedure (based on Misconduct behavior rather than popularity)? But if you really think popularity is more important than actual contributions please feel free to RAGE on. I remember you whined about my policy saying it was too complicated. So, I guess you really do want things the easy way?--– Nubis ^NWO 03:14, 20 July 2009 (BST)

What Nubis said. Any policy should be based on misconduct, not on popularity - like in Nubis' misconduct policy. Linkthewindow  Talk  08:51, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Oh and thanks for edit conflicting me to say much the same thing boxy.... bloody pest :( --Honestmistake 00:21, 19 July 2009 (BST)

A few voting requirements wouldn't hurt. Total time on the Wiki/minimum edits, something like that. I'm against leaving it up to the Crats.--

| T | BALLS! | 00:34 19 July 2009(BST)

Common sense, if we're trying to pry some of them out of office why would we let them have any say in how this policy is written and implemented --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 00:36, 19 July 2009 (BST)

It's up to Wan as to how this policy is written. If you want your own, go make one. I'd love to vote on what you two idiots come up with -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 00:43 19 July 2009 (BST)

I think what Wan has come up with so far is good --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 00:47, 19 July 2009 (BST)

So we're supposed to limit "discussion" to yes/no? Sounds more like voting. This must be an example of that vaunted "maturity" I keep hearing about. --

| T | BALLS! | 00:56 19 July 2009(BST)

No, you're not limited to yes/no. Yup, this is my policy, but I made this page for discussion and development. it's a little like Talk:Suggestions... except, as you can see, less civil... ;P Anyway, "voting requirements" are no more or less necessary here than they are for any other policy or 'crat vote. --WanYao 03:30, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Ah, thank you. I thought voting requirements might cut down on dealing with sock/meatpuppet issues. At any rate, thanks for drafting this up. I'm all for it. --

| T | BALLS! | 03:38 19 July 2009(BST)

I understand your point... but how should this be any different than 'crat promotions or other policy votes? Those don't have special voting req's do they? I think voting req's needs (yet another!) seperate policy. --WanYao 03:45, 19 July 2009 (BST)

I love it how you're all for democracy, but then state that an entire portion of the community shouldn't have any say in how a policy is written. Linkthewindow  Talk  09:35, 20 July 2009 (BST)

What the hell are you talking about now??? --WanYao 13:53, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Imthatguy's "Common sense, if we're trying to pry some of them out of office why would we let them have any say in how this policy is written and implemented" quote. --ϑϑℜ 13:55, 20 July 2009 (BST)

COMMON SENSE! LOL. SYSOPS AREN'T HUMAN! WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO THEIR OPINIONS! WE WANT THEM PUNISHED FOR PUTTING UP WITH OUR SHIT AND NOT SMILING AND TAKING IT LIKE WE THINK THEY SHOULD! HOW FUCKING DARE THEY WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE WAY THIS PLACE IS RUN? IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT - IT'S ABOUT WHATEVER THE FUCKING DRAMA OF THE MOMENT IS AND HOW IT CAN BENEFIT THE ASSHOLES THAT STIRRED IT UP. ASSHOLES THAT I MIGHT ADD ARE TOO MUCH OF FUCK UPS TO ACTUALLY GET INTO A POSITION OF "power" ON HERE BECAUSE THEY WERE ABSENT FROM THE WIKI FOR TOO FUCKING LONG. AN ASSHOLE THAT ACTUALLY HAD A DECENT AMOUNT OF SUPPORT, BUT WALKED AWAY AND NOW WANTS TO COME BACK AND TELL PEOPLE HOW IT SHOULD BE RUN! YES, THAT IS EXACTLY WHO SHOULD BE MAKING POLICY. FUCKSTICK.-- #99 ^DCC 02:31, 21 July 2009 (BST)

I think what he meant was a popular vote should determine demotion rather than a ruling by the sysops.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 00:32, 21 July 2009 (BST)

I think that you know very well that's not what he meant. --Cyberbob 05:04, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Of course that isn't what he meant, or he would have said so. --ϑϑℜ 05:07, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Simple reevaluation

I support reevaluation rather than a poll (which is too easily abused), overviewed by the 'crats. The sysop should be allowed to choose their own timing, as long as it's within a certain timeframe. Current crats would be immune (because they've already been through a poll approving of them). There needs to be significant community disapproval before demotion. Plenty of sysops have already put themselves up for reevaluation successfully, showing that if you're doing the job the way the community wants it done, it's easy enough to get reapproved -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 00:19 19 July 2009 (BST)

No --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 00:25, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Brilliant counter! That was so informative and intelligent, I don't think any of us ever need to hear from you again!--SirArgo ^Talk 00:25, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Duelists --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 00:33, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Rebel without a clue -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 03:32 19 July 2009 (BST)

Combo of Tiny Yapper and Palooka. Just won't die or shut up.--SirArgo ^Talk 03:54, 19 July 2009 (BST)

I think you dont see what this policy is about boxy, as for argo.... hes just pissed that i killed him in game a long time ago --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 05:04, 19 July 2009 (BST)

No, boxy. It was exactly to circumvent the deeply flawed concept and practice of "self-policing" that I made this policy draft. I tried to think of some way to bring the 'crats into the equation... but other than completely dispensing with the central idea that the community finally gets some power to demote sysops who've lost their "trusted user" status, I couldn't/can't see how to do it. And I've intentionally made it hard for a sysop to be demoted exactly to prevent abuse of the policy. To get demoted by the community in this way you must have REALLY screwed up and lost our trust... and if you've screwed up that badly, you really shouldn't be a sysop anymore. --WanYao 03:52, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Self policing in this manner doesn't work at the moment, because crats are restricted to only demoting after clear and extremely serious misconduct is approved by the other sysops. Making it a formal reevaluation where the communities views are required to be considered is a whole new concept. Hell, if the community wanted to get rid of a sysop now, they should be able to start a vote to show clear community will and the crats would have to act if the result was clearly that the community had lost trust in a sysop -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 04:22 19 July 2009 (BST)

Actually, it's not. You'll note it wasn't a vote, but a forced re-evaluation of a sysop by the Bureaucrats, complete with community feedback, much like you are suggesting. Honestly, it could be dusted off, have the inactive sysop component removed, and put up as a new policy (due to the removal of the inactive sysops component). It follows the current guidelines of sysop nomination, but as a re-evaluation. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:28, 21 July 2009 (BST)

And your other proposals are more of the same: trusting to effective self-policing. Plenty of sysops have put themselves up for reevaluation... yes... and good on them. But we shouldn't have to sit back and wait and hope for any old sysop to decide to do this, when and if they feel like it... We should have a bit more say in the who, what, why, how and when. --WanYao 03:57, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Fair enough, but still, voting is very easily abused, and adding strict voting requirements will just make the re-evaluations seem elitist anyway... If, for example, you made requirements similar to "1 month in community" and "100 edits prior" etc. --ϑϑℜ 04:01, 19 July 2009 (BST)

You don't have to sit back and wait. There would be a maximum time limit as to how long any sysop can go without a reevaluation (or winning a crat election). This simply means that such reevaluations will be based on medium/long term behaviour, instead of single incidents. We don't want a situation where demotion votes are called for single bad decisions, but rather to get rid of a sysop if they are making consistently bad decisions -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 04:17 19 July 2009 (BST)

Am I seriously insane, or haven't we been down that path before? I seem to recall several very heated discussions about periodic reviews of sysop-ship... More than just one proposed by Nubis. And for reasons I honestly don't recall every one of them got shot down or withdrawn. I'm all for bringing that idea back... But... still... it leaves the self-policing thing ultimately intact. I want the community to have some way to bypass the closed self-policing circle, if necessary. --WanYao 05:12, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Votes are far too easily abused (which is why A/PM is a discussion instead of a straight vote.) That's a problem with internet voting itself, not with the policy. I wouldn't be against this if the crats where edited in (yes, I know of the potential conflict of interest here.) Making it just like another A/PM bid would shield against meatpuppets, etc (and add "Bureaucrats must demote a sysop who shows a major lack of support from the community" to prevent the repromontion of very unpopular sysops.)

Also, sysops shouldn't face demotion over single bad decisions (as Boxy said above.) This policy makes this somewhat likely (especially for unpopular sysops,) and just adds to the drama around any misconduct case. I would be more likely to support this if a line similar to "a sysop must have had X number of misconduct cases that closed misconduct to be considered eligible for demotion" A sysop shouldn't be demoted just because they are unpopular, they should be demoted for constant misuse/mistakes using admin powers. Linkthewindow  Talk  12:41, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Problem is that you're proposing yet another method of self-policing. And my point is that self-policing just isn't good enough. In the real world, or on the wiki. This policy has been very specifically designed to avoid kneejerk demotions. First of all, a significant portion (75%) of voting For/Against users must call for demotion. Secondly, there is a 1 week cooling off period before the actual voting actually starts. Given these safeguards it is incredibly implausible that a sysop will be demoted for screwing up once. However, the policy does give the community the power to demote sysops who've lost the trust and confidence of the community. I'm all for making changes the policy as i wrote it. That's why it's up for discussion here... but the changes you're proposing completely castrate the intent and method of the policy -- namely, to give a solution to the question "Who watches the watchmen?" --WanYao 17:00, 19 July 2009 (BST)

"Peace, Bread, Land. All power to the Soviets". Even if 100% Of users Agree on an idea it does not make the idea an inherently good one. Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 12:13, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Rah rah Rasputin! --WanYao 17:00, 19 July 2009 (BST)

Meatpuppets

As it stands this policy asking for meatpuppets. Making it a vote is an idiotic idea as people can just call on their friends to get it over whatever arbitrary guideline we set (this especially goes for unpopular sysops.) Again, this is a problem of internet voting in itself, not specifically of this policy, but when we're talking about a demotion (especially since demotions are (understandably) seen as pretty serious,) we really can't afford to take any chances with meatpuppeting.

In short people can just call on whatever group they are in/their friends to get the vote over 75% (it's happened before) and thus ruin any "democracy." It's why we discuss promotions instead of outright voting on them (see: Polling is not a substitute for discussion for another community's approach to this.)

Although I do understand your motives for trying to get past the "closed policing circle" this policy is just opening a huge hole for meatpuppets. Linkthewindow  Talk  08:40, 20 July 2009 (BST)

3 months since first edit, over 100 edits. bang no problem. --xoxo 08:44, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Won't solve the problem. I'm not talking about blatant meatpuppets (as in this case) but more wiki users who have enough edits from updating stuff (danger reports, suburb news, etc,) but really aren't part of the wiki community (as in this case.) Users who make enough edits to pass voting guidelines but aren't part of the community (and hence will know very little about the sysop in question) are the real problem with the policy, not one-edit throwaways.

Also, voting restrictions, even in very mild forms have been rejected. It's a dead end for solving the problem. Linkthewindow  Talk  08:49, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Will respond to this later :P --xoxo 08:51, 20 July 2009 (BST)

If you want to get around the simple socks, you can impose a minimum time/edit number on voters. But how are you going to get around the meat? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 13:12, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Exactly the problem, and exactly why this shouldn't be a vote. Linkthewindow  Talk  13:17, 20 July 2009 (BST)

You call it meatpuppeting. I call it the wiki equivalent of political parties and like-interest voting blocs. Nothing wrong with political parties.

But I suppose in your minds democracy is a lot worse than a small clique having essentially carte blanche control over the wiki. Sometimes you people are unbelievable. --WanYao 13:24, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Kevan disagrees with you. --Cyberbob 13:29, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Strawman. --WanYao 13:32, 20 July 2009 (BST)

What? Complete irrelevancy aside, he makes it even clearer that he does not agree with your position on meatpuppetry on that policy's talk page. --Cyberbob 13:33, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Quoting your flawed interpretation of The Gospel of Kevan is not an argument, cyberbob. --WanYao 13:49, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Uh, he didn't veto the policy because it was meatpuppeted, he vetoed it because he didn't like the part of it that basically endorsed meatpuppetry. That's what the veto text said, and his other post on the talk page backs it up and clarifies his argument. There's no interpretation required here at all. --Cyberbob 13:54, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Actually, yes there is an interpretation required here. An historical one.

These blokes from this board called somewhereanonymous, or someoneaphidlike, or something... Goons they called themselves... Anyway... they came into UD with the declared intention of "breaking the game". Part of that "mission" included to break the wiki. So, they made some ridiculous and absurd policy and then got all their buddies to register and vote for it. Well, Kevan knew exactly what was going on and put a stop to it. This is the only time he has ever done that. Under these very unique circumstances.

However... there have been numerous other situations where people have "meatpuppetted"... for example, very often the calls to vote posted in barhah.com... Well, Kevan's no idiot, and I am certain he knows how the real world of non-real-world wiki politics works. And he has NEVER expressed any concern with any of those "meatpuppet" votes.

So your attempt to bring The One True Name: Kevan into this discussion doesn't really cut it. However.... if you really want to be sure... why don't you ask him yourself? Go on... if you're so sure he's on your side, get some confirmation... --WanYao 00:36, 21 July 2009 (BST)

But since we're on this subject, this is what K had to say about that veto:

• "Yes, abusive vote striking is bad, and we should improve the rules against it if they aren't working. Yes, we should deal with any sysops who are exploiting it. I vetoed this policy only for the tenuous clause about all levels of meatpuppetry being totally acceptable on policy votes, which would obviously be exploitable by any single game group that wanted to get their own way on the wiki. (emphasis added)
  

There, sir, is your answer. Nowhere do I see Kevan stating what you're implying he stated. Pehaps the nuance escapes you, but what he was talking about was that "tenous clause" about permitting "all levels of meatpuppetry". Very different from from him saying all forms of bloc voting are bad. Seems he neither agrees nor disagrees with me, really.--WanYao 01:26, 21 July 2009 (BST)

The beauty of this is that I called wanny out on his attempt to meat puppet that vote, yet there is no evidence ANYWHERE that any goon tried to meat puppet a vote. Yet it always comes down to GOONS BAD!!! -- #99 ^DCC 02:08, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Explain the difference between meat puppeting and block voting. This ought to be good for a LOL.-- #99 ^DCC 02:10, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Alright then Wan, if you think Kevan will approve of a policy that enables meatpuppetry to decide whether a sysop stays or goes, and whose creator has defended meatpuppetry as being "just like a political party system", then obviously I can't stop you but I wouldn't mind betting the veto power will be put into play for a second time. --Cyberbob 04:58, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Recruiting your friends to give the appearance of a majority in favor of a proposal is different to political parties. Generally, the friends that have been recruited know absolutely nothing about the wiki, while bloc voters do have something at stake, and do at least know a little about the system. Meatpuppeting is indeed the perfect way to subvert a democracy by turning it into a friends contest, not who has the best solution. Unless there's simply no other way, a discussion is nearly always better then a vote.

And no, I don't have a problem with democracy. I do have a problem with voting (especially since there's a lot at state here,) being turned into a mere popularity contest. Linkthewindow  Talk  13:56, 20 July 2009 (BST)

I see now how my view of meatpuppeting differs from the sysops. Strictly speaking, a meatpuppet would be someone who was brought in from a different site to support a vote. However, if a user or group can recruit enough of their deadbeat wiki friends to register an opinion that should be fine.

Ultimately democracy is a popularity contest, by its very premise. We trust that the collective majority possesses a judgment greater than any of its individuals. The results aren't perfect, but they do reflect the will of those people who actually bothered to vote. And those results are ultimately more acceptable to the engaged majority than decisions handed down from on high.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 01:04, 21 July 2009 (BST)

No, it's not fine that a user or group can recruit enough of their "deadbeat wiki friends" to change the outcome of a vote. Firstly, it dilutes the wiki community's say in the outcome of an issue, making it less about "who has the best idea?" and more about "I've got no idea about this by my friend says vote for!!!" How is that fine and acceptable? It's exactly the way to ruin democracy by simply making it about who can recruit the most friends to vote.

And no, democracy is not a popularity contest about people - it's a popularity contest about ideas. There's a difference, and the moment we make it more about people and less about the ideas, then we've completely gone away from a democracy. Basically meatpuppeting is just a lesser form of sockpuppeting - it gives one person more the one vote as they recruit their friends to be their "socks" instead of making alternate accounts. This is diluting the opinion of the collective majority and giving undue weight to one person's opinion. Linkthewindow  Talk  07:59, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Kevan's Quote on Meat Puppetry from a previous policy

Kevan said:

I vetoed this policy only for the tenuous clause about all levels of meatpuppetry being totally acceptable on policy votes, which would obviously be exploitable by any single game group that wanted to get their own way on the wiki.

Just putting the relevant quote in a spot that more people are likely to see so they can draw their own conclusions. --Cyberbob 04:58, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Wow. That is nicely out of context. I notice that the way you have it currently, you've made it look like Kevan is commenting directly on this policy instead of the actual policy he was commenting on. I don't really understand why a quote wasn't good enough to emphasize Kevan's statement, but hey, you're the guy who's supposed to know how to do things. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 20:35, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Simple mistake, let it go and get off his back. We've all done shit like this before.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 23:50, 21 July 2009 (BST)

(Akules comment above was reflecting on the previous header quote, which stated "Kevan's Quote", which the quote was misrepresented and has now been changed for accuracy. This note is so I don't get in trouble. D: )--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 23:52, 21 July 2009 (BST)--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 23:52, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Crats are the cats

Look, seriously, I don't see where this entire fear of giving Crats the decisions has come from. A vote is just such a stupid idea, and I don't think making sysops re-run is a bad idea at all, least through discussion as judged by Crats. I can't help but think those that are against this idea are overlooking the most obvious of facts:

1. Crats have no right to disregard overwhelming community opinion in Administration/Promotion matters. This policy wants 75% vote against a sysop? Imagine an equivalent to that in a community discussion on a user's nomination on A/PM and think how preposterous it would be for them to promote a user after such overwhelming negativity from the community. Now imagine that in a sysop-renomination. It wouldn't happen, especially if this policy stresses it (unlike Conn's idea of giving them certain "veto community opinion" rights).
2. Crats are voted on by the community anyway. Want Sysop X out? Is Sysop Y his buttbuddy? Don't vote him as a crat. That's how it's always happened, and Crats have always been voted in soley on their ability to treat the Promotions system in a trustable way. Did a crat just disregard community opinion as I said in point #1? Don't vote him in ever, ever again. He's obviously unfit to be a crat, lest a sysop. Now he's liable to be demoted based on his actions, it won't happen. And if it does, there are two crats, each with veto power. Unfair re-promotions? It. Won't. Happen.
3. So what if the community opinion is heavily split over whether a sysop should stay in position (many strongly for but many strongly against) and the Crat chooses to keep the sysop in instead of keeping them out? All it means is that the sysop gets a wake up call about their behaviour and they get ample choice at recovering the values that they were promoted for in the first place.

I trust the community, and having selective voting standards are much better than just having regular free-for-all voting, and I agree with this policy in the sense that it's correct implementation is a good thing, but I just can't go past the fact that the above users are just blocking their ears to the simple facts of the bureaucrat system and playing on other's words of 'conspiracy potential' more. Simply, I won't be supporting this if it remains to go through a vote. The entire policy is a kneejerk reaction, imagine the problems some sysops will encounter from the same reactions, as time passes.--ϑϑℜ 09:17, 20 July 2009 (BST)

This isn't a kneejerk reaction. It's something many people have been asking for for a long time, in one form or another. Yes consistently the sysop-y-types reject any movement for change in this direction....

But anyway... if you're referring to its timing, it's no less "kneejerk" than the timing of this. It's certainly no less "kneejerk" or off-the-wall than these. --WanYao 13:41, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Was that all of my message that you could bring yourself to address? Stop avoiding my point- You know, when you care to think about it, there is nothing to fear from having a system that is reviewed by Crats. Crats that are elected by the community based on their neutrality and impartiality. They are just as liable as the other sysops, given time, so why would they want to just cheat the system in front of the public eye? If we make this a vote, it will render the entire A/PM discussion system useless. --ϑϑℜ 13:49, 20 July 2009 (BST)

DDR is dead on here. Crats are selected by the community (except for when the Goons forced in Grim). Look at the last few Crat elections. The people that the Community trusted the most got the position. Unless you want to make all Sysop positions a forced vote renewal (which would mean every time you turn around you are voting on sysops) there really isn't a good way to change this (unless you go with the system based on Misconduct behavior).

Wan, my system of basing a review on Misconduct cases would clearly address your desire to review "bad" sysops. It's not like any of the active sysops haven't been on A/M for something. Try being reasonable. --– Nubis ^NWO 13:55, 20 July 2009 (BST)

You require successful misconduct cases iirc. I, however, don't trust the police to police themselves. That's the issue here, and it's not an unreasonable position. --WanYao 14:01, 20 July 2009 (BST)

It is when you continually decline to explain why, and with what evidence you take that position. I've given plenty of points and concepts that I think demonstrate why there is a lot less (than you think) to fear by allowing crats to police the sysops using the accountability of this policy, but you still fight with the long-known flawed concepts of voting. --ϑϑℜ 14:06, 20 July 2009 (BST)

It also gave a Minor Misconduct disposition which would be easier to get than a Misconduct vote. It could be changed to include those outcomes in the review process.After 3 Misconduct cases (declared Misconduct - "Minor Misconduct" does not count in this case) the sysop is then reviewed. This could be changed to address your problem with that policy.--– Nubis ^NWO 15:03, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Here read it again.--– Nubis ^NWO 15:06, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Dont let them fool you, they're just trying to cast doubt on a perfect demotion system --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 22:24, 20 July 2009 (BST)

So, DDR, if voting is so "flawed"... Why not dispense with it entirely? We'll just appoint the current team sysops-for-life. Then you can get rid of the "flawed" and "inefficient" systems on Deletions and everywhere else.

I don't think voting is anywhere near as "flawed" as you want to make out. So, no, I won't give up my position -- and we won't find common ground, apparently, because we have a very fundamental difference of opinion, at a very basic, foundational level. --WanYao 00:25, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Shut the fuck up and read what someone has to say for once. Similarly to your retarded claims, I don't think crat re-evaluation is anywhere near as "flawed" as you want to make out. Now hear this. The difference between our positions is that you've received overwhelming reasons as to why voting is flawed and you've just completely ignored them and hence haven't taken the effort to prove your support of voting. I've addressed these moronic "conspiracy claims" of the "flawed sysop system" head on and you've done nothing except weave in and out of it with dreadful claims like "We'll just appoint the current team sysops-for-life". Did you take in a single fucking word of my original post besides the word "kneejerk"?

I admit I was surprised our discussion got this far before you resorted to your over-emotional, baseless conspiracy frothing. But I'm disgusted you still had to do it after I tried my best to talk reason into you in the most civil and mature way possible. You won't budge, huh? What are you waiting for? Take this terrible thing to voting. I almost can't wait for this era to be over. --ϑϑℜ 03:39, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Ouch... Big words from such a little man --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 03:42, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Be quite you parasite. The serious users are discussing things. --ϑϑℜ 04:01, 21 July 2009 (BST)

You keep saying you don't want the "police" to "police" themselves. You do know that in the real world the hierarchy goes UP and not down, right? Citizens can't vote cops off the force. It has to come from someone above them. In this case, it would be the Crats or Kevan. And I don't see Kevan getting involved in a demotion again after Katthew. He wouldn't even demote Grim himself (officially). Why not instead of trying to make some half assed policy you spend your time actually building a case against whomever you think is unfit and trying that? --– Nubis ^NWO 13:53, 21 July 2009 (BST)

As you know full well, attempting to build cases against sysops and to try to take them through the normal Misconduct procedures is all too often fruitless. You even appeared to admit that this is the case, commenting on Grimch's bullying over there in the discussion of cyberbob's misconduct case... Sooooo? The thing is, whether you like to admit or not, there is a significant portion of the wiki community who are not satisfied with sysops self-policing. And not all of them are as "half-assed" as you like to imply... there are very good reasons for the vocality of those of us who want changes... whether you want to admit it or not, whether you agree with those reasons or not. You can call us half-assed all you want, your goon pals can resort to ad hominems all they like, but until the dissatisfaction is addressed you're going to have people raising a stink. Ah well.... --WanYao 15:47, 21 July 2009 (BST)

As I said over there, one case does not make a pattern. You are hinging entire "careers" on the whims of the masses. And if you are an example, well, just look at how easy you are to bait and piss off. You have ignored legitimate concerns and have been insulting and ignorant through this process when you actually met some resistance to your "grand suggestion that will save UD". This policy is your Nailgun. Congrats!

Did you ever read this? This was completed in January and even as late as June the sysops (and members of the community) didn't think there was a clear enough pattern to be considered Excessive Bullying, yet you are convinced that you have an airtight case for it that's just going to get ignored? The users on this wiki have proven that the only person they are not going to forgive is Izumi. As far as significant portion, unless you are going to summon meat puppets for this you are the only one fighting for it here. Well, by fighting I mean sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling THE SYSTEM IS BAD and ignoring any discussion on it. --– Nubis ^NWO 17:14, 21 July 2009 (BST)

not entirely true that he is the only one who thinks we have a problem, just the only one shouting loudly for this solution to it. As far as I am concerned what we really need is annual Sysop's... that is a fixed term for the position followed (if the 'op in question wants) by a new bid for 'promotion' That way its not a demotion and no loss of face is suggested but the role can no longer be called a job for life... unless you are Boxy the everliving ;)--Honestmistake 17:19, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Uhmmmmm... Iscariot was never a sysop. Therefore "excessive bullying" is inapplicable, even if it's 633% true, because that is clause which refers to sysop Misconduct cases. And you people accuse me of not getting the facts etc. straight. Sheesh.

My policy was specifically designed to minimise abuse, while at the same time allowing the community some recourse to bypass "self-policing". But the only "refutation" of these safeguards is to claim that voting is bad and democracy can't be trusted. And you wonder why I've started ignoring your walls of text?......

And it's obvious from the comments here and elsewhere that I am far from alone in feeling that there is a problem with status quo.

The rest of your comments are mostly (more) personal attacks in lieu of argument and thus not worthy of a response. --WanYao 19:40, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Off course in the real world the heirarcy goes up instead of down, but it doesn't make it any more right for it to be that way; indeed some of the more respected political theories are based on trying to reverse that (i.e. Democracy, Socialism, ect) and sometimes the police do 'police themselves' but in larger systems there tends to be more agencies and occasionally civilian oversight of the 'police'--DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 21:16, 21 July 2009 (BST)

tl;dr

I literally didn't even bother reading through the shit on the talk, I could barely force myself to finish off that paragraph you call a "policy". Yes, we in the RRF can make sure no survivor player can evar get ops! Whoo hoo, I've never loved the idea of meatpuppets more! Not to mention that little bit I read from wan when it comes to meat puppeting he's all for it! How's that for a kick to intelligence's nuts? Your policy sucks. Make a review mandatory of every op at set intervals of like 4 or six months. Don't bring out this bloc voting shit, because if you would actually think about it you'd know it wouldn't work in this community.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:03, 20 July 2009 (BST)

Well, if this went through the next policy would be block voting on banning users. Only next logical step after all.--– Nubis ^NWO 21:05, 20 July 2009 (BST)

yap.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:19, 20 July 2009 (BST)

i assume this section is directed at nubis? well, i didn't read the "policy" either, sorry, nubis but it was too long and convoluted. i kept mine short, simple and to the point on purpose.

but... okay... here's a straw vote... who's actually in favour, this time around, of a mandatory sysop review every six months. that is, six months after your confirmation, you must be re-confirmed. it's the normal procedure, except the discussion is only one week long -- and (!) yes the final decision rests with the crats whether to re-appoint the sysop.

(and also seeing as i'm part of the barhah.com community... nope, i don't have any problem when people post there asking other users to say nay or yay on various votes. i myself have made and answered such calls, both) --WanYao 00:19, 21 July 2009 (BST)

I DIDN'T READ IT!! IT HAD TOO MANY WORDS! RAWR! RAWR! RAWR!! MAKE THINGS SIMPLE FOR MY LITTLE MIND! RAWR RAWR!! You sound like such a fuck head these days, Whine Yao.-- #99 ^DCC 02:14, 21 July 2009 (BST)

don't have any problem when people post there asking other users to say nay or yay on various votes. I CAN'T THINK FOR MYSELF! I NEED PEOPLE TO TELL ME WHAT TO VOTE AND MEAT PUPPETS ARE BAD WHEN THEY AREN'T WITH ME!! RAWR RAWR RAWR!!

The policy is bullshit. And the motivations behind it are even more bullshitty. No one is buying the martyrdom act... <THAT'S A WHINEY YAO LINE, TOO. BUT AGAINST THE GOONS SO THAT MAKES IT OK. -- #99 ^DCC 02:23, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Don't fall into that big credibility gap there.... --WanYao 12:02, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Meanwhile, if someone can't be bothered to make a piece of writing concise and readable, I can't be bothered to read it. Simple 'dat, really. But... it's genuine logic, as opposed to trolling and ad hominems, which is all you've got, apparently --WanYao 12:06, 21 July 2009 (BST)

You want concise policy, but when people such as yourself wiki lawyer based on one word in a sentence that request seems pointless. Just come out and admit that you are on some personal crusade and picking up the mantle of Iscariot. Should we start calling you the Voice of the Community or Wiki Martyr? --– Nubis ^NWO 13:46, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Sorry... but maybe instead of seeing connections and conspiracies where they don't exist, you should ask yourself why this issue keeps coming up. Why people who don't otherwise even like each other (e.g. me and Zombie Lord, or me and Iscariot) are in agreement that change needs to occur on this front. Maybe because there is some validity to the aguments? Oh no but you could never admit that, could you! -WanYao 16:01, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Let's see, Iscariot turned down at least 2 nominations for sysop then made a huge deal about the fact it wasn't on an Admin page (but still in the Moderator section or vice versa it was ridiculous). When you were active and contributing you CBA'd to be a sysop and when you were nominated you still didn't give a shit, but now saving this wiki is the most important thing to you? Looks like "issues" keep coming up because the drama queens get bored. --– Nubis ^NWO 17:23, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Iscariot is another red herring topic. How about we back to the issue at hand, the policy? --WanYao 19:42, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Hey, is this piece of shit policy goes anywhere I call dibs on submitting A/M for deletions. It won't be needed anymore. Or maybe Hagnut should have that honor...--

#99 ^DCC 02:50, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Oooooooooooh, ad hominems! I'm so impressed! --WanYao 12:00, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Maybe you should be addressing the more solid arguments than proudly pointing out the weaknesses in the most trivial of ones. --ϑϑℜ 12:15, 21 July 2009 (BST)

You mean like DCC's question: Explain the difference between meat puppeting and block voting? That sounds rather reasonable. I don't think we will be getting a response though.--– Nubis ^NWO 13:42, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Not unless Wan can use his phrase-of-the-day 'ad hominem'. Would it be bold to assume he learned the meaning of it two days ago and within a week will have gotten over using it? --ϑϑℜ 15:55, 21 July 2009 (BST)

(edit conflicted)I've been quite consistent... it's you people who keep shifting the ground and the terms of the debate. I didn't bring up the issue of meat-puppeting in the first place. You's did. I don't consider it especially relevant to the debate of policy draft, and your question about "meatpuppeting vs. bloc voting" is even less relevant. See, I don't consider "meatpuppets" to be a very big problem, in general, on the wiki. Which is part of why I don't consider posting to a forum (composed of people who play the game and are mostly long-standing members of the wiki) and asking for support on a vote a big deal. I consider this issue merely a smokescreen to derail the real discussion, thus I CBA'd to give it a "proper" response. --WanYao 15:57, 21 July 2009 (BST)

And there you go again, DDR.... resorting to the ad hominems... Good one! --WanYao 15:57, 21 July 2009 (BST)

And yet you've never accused me of one before, because then you'd actually have to address the logic in my arguments above, which you have obviously been to frightened to do. --ϑϑℜ 23:01, 21 July 2009 (BST)

To my experience, discussing with the sysops is walking around in circles. A proper debate is something that doesn't exist here. It's a mess of scrambled arguments and personal attacks. And I can go on and on and on until you have a text the size of the vertical length of the Wall of China. But that gets very tiresome quickly. If I were you Wan, I would put the policy up for voting. You really aren't going to get anything practical out of this discussion. --Thadeous Oakley 16:11, 21 July 2009 (BST)

are mostly long-standing members of the wiki' Subtle. Nice touch.--– Nubis ^NWO 17:23, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Was that an ad hominem attack on the barhah.com community, there, nubis??? --WanYao 19:23, 21 July 2009 (BST)

The Urban Dead Wiki community =/= the barhah.com community (or the Urban Dead community in general.) Linkthewindow  Talk  22:39, 21 July 2009 (BST)

No, it was pointing out your little dig against the goons.--– Nubis ^NWO 10:51, 22 July 2009 (BST)

All in all, he's not getting anything practical out of the discussion because he's not really contributing anything to it. Mostly what I've seen is complains about how we're fucking things up, with no veritable proof, cries of personal attacks, and one liners "Strawman". Whereas many users have given something to discuss, he ignores either all or most of the discussion. Not to mention his horrible interpretations of how people think or feel. Oh, and not to mentions he's too busy raging on the sysops all of a sudden. I think it's because he's still pissy about the irc channel thing. ;)--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 18:22, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Once again.... nothing but a personal attack masquerading as an "argument". but let's see... a) i have consistently called the admin team on their fuckups, pretty much as long as i've been on the wiki. i also defend them when such a defence is deserved. don't think you're special or being singled out, dude, you're not b) i have addressed all points i considered worth addressing. i have explained that i do not feel the status quo of self-policing is adequate. you in effect demand that i do accept it as adequate, or else everything i say is bullshit. that's what it amounts to... and because i chose not play this game, i called all sorts of names. sweet. c) the only people attempting to "mind read" are those of the admin team who disagree with my position d) the irc thing is more ad hominem bullshit, not worthy of a proper reply As much as I consider MisterGame to be a clown, generally, he pretty much got it right in his comment above about you people --WanYao 19:30, 21 July 2009 (BST)

"You people"? --Cyberbob 19:31, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Q.E.D. --WanYao 19:43, 21 July 2009 (BST)

How does that apply here? --Cyberbob 19:51, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Clown, ;( ? Well I admit this place brings up the worse in me, but that's the reason why I try to avoid the admin sections lately. You got my vote in any pro-community policy though.--Thadeous Oakley 19:54, 21 July 2009 (BST)

WanYao

When creating this policy, in the aftermath of a failed Misconduct case, which you started in the aftermath of a failed vandal banning case, did you, by chance have anybody in mind that you would call this on?--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 19:41, 21 July 2009 (BST)

If the sysops ask for the benefit of the doubt that they have the best interests of the wiki in mind, and for us to believe that they are not part of some secret cabal... Then it only follows to permit me the same leeway that these things are not as connected as you're trying to make out. Is there a connection? Of course there is. It's the connection that happens when you piece part of a puzzle together and come up with a solution. Because the problem is right there in front of you. Nothing more, nothing less. --WanYao 19:45, 21 July 2009 (BST)

True, I just followed a basic path across the admin pages. Since you aren't stupid enough to ask for his user page to be deleted, this was a logical step. Unfortunately, if you do want rid of Cyberbob, you'll have to wait it out, until his time is done, or he does somethign worthy of demotion.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 19:48, 21 July 2009 (BST)

I think part of the problem that Wan is trying to deal with is that Cyberbob's time will not be out until he chooses to step down or does something so incredibly bad that it either borders on the illegal or is demonstrably insane. That is true of all Sysops at the moment and is a bit of a ridiculous situation.... sadly no demotion system based on a vote (however stringent) is ever going to be fair as some of the things sysops have to do make them very unpopular, I think most of us can see that a good sysop is not the same as a popular one (and vice versa). The only answer I can think of is to make the sysop role a set term with re-elections (promotion bids) held at the end of each term if they so desire. --Honestmistake 20:38, 21 July 2009 (BST)

That I would definitely get behind. But then again, popularity strikes in. Useful sysops might get pushed under the rug because of unpopularity. It's a bit of an ass really.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 21:25, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Voting doesn't come into play with sysop nomination. If you had a sysop go for re-evaluation annually using the sysop nomination rules, then the whole idea of meatpuppetry is moot. Vouches are just vouches and not votes. The crats ultimately hold the decision. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 21:30, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Ah yes, I skipped over the words "promotion bids". I assumed he meant actual elections.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:14, 21 July 2009 (BST)

It looks like the policy is actually talking about an actual vote, but people have been discussing that they would prefer a simple re-evaluation. I had assumed he had changed it to fit their request. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 22:29, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Well, this is just discussion, I'm certain he'll change it before the actual vote on thsi thing.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:38, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Usually people make revisions as the discussion progresses, in order to prevent the same redundant argument to surface. It also gives people time to look at the revisions and talk about how the policy looks at that time. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 22:47, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Well then, I'd wager that he's probably offline. --Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:48, 21 July 2009 (BST)

He's been refusing it become a discussion/A/PM style system for a while. Linkthewindow  Talk  22:49, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Ah. Well, then perhaps I should re-tool my previous policy to remove the inactive sysop component (since we already have a working policy) and just make it a policy for Sysop re-evaluation. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 22:52, 21 July 2009 (BST)

He has no intention of changing it. He's admitted repeatedly in the above discussions and has refused to compromise to any sort of logic and reason, to the point where he can't even reply to said arguments with fear of having to admit the truth in them. --ϑϑℜ 23:04, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Complete bullshit, DDR. And you know it. I called for input and suggestions to make it more workable. You rejected the concept out of hand. You demanded that I ditch the very concept of the policy, namely demotion-by-public-vote. You and several others turned it into a personal pissing contest because I didn't accept the complete castration of the central intention of the policy. Why would I support having the policy's core elements and reasons for being removed? To expect that I would was totally unreasonable and sheer arrogance. --WanYao 12:48, 22 July 2009 (BST)

And policy discussions like these typically are up for 2 weeks. Why the rush to close it down, eh??? --WanYao 12:50, 22 July 2009 (BST)

Finalise

I'm going to keep this simple and say it; when is this thing going up? It's obvious that no matter the logic it is presented with, you won't listen to anyone's opinion if it differs with your own, Wan. And, without a willingness to compromise, only one question remains (two, if you count "Why did you even bother discussing the policy for so long if you had no intention of taking any advice from it"): When are you going to put this up for voting already? --ϑϑℜ 23:04, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Also, just in case I didn't say it up top, I would be more than willing to have annual or timed interval reevaluations. In fact, I've got one coming up in like a week.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 23:41, 21 July 2009 (BST)

So, then if I retool this policy to make it into one for re-evaluations only, that'd be fine? --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 23:45, 21 July 2009 (BST)

It would take some heavy reworking for me to accept it but something along those lines (without the agenda that last one had) would be better than this. For starters don't make it a review, make it an entirely new "promotion" bid and not more frequent than annually. --Honestmistake 23:52, 21 July 2009 (BST)

Every four-six months seems well enough to me, and it should be a re-evaluation, because they already have the power. A new promotion bid would be acting as if they didn't have the power, yet they do and can use it up until they're shot out. Calling it a new one is just incorrect wording. :D --Mr. Angel, Help needed? 23:56, 21 July 2009 (BST)

I prefer the idea of a re-evaluation over a new promotion bid. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:06, 22 July 2009 (BST)

I am for forced promotion bids every 6 months for current sysops. --ϑϑℜ 00:29, 22 July 2009 (BST)

Alright, I will start putting something together. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:40, 22 July 2009 (BST)

Ah. I am for either method (promotion vs evaluation) because I assume they'll be treated in a similar way, as evaluation by the community and finalised by crats. Just as long as it isn't a vote. --ϑϑℜ 00:57, 22 July 2009 (BST)

I was trying to fix too much in that one policy. We managed to get the inactive sysop policy to pass, which was half of that previous policy. --Akule ^{Maker of fine, hand-crafted UDWiki sass since 2006 -- Akule School's back in session™} 00:06, 22 July 2009 (BST)

I asked for input, and welcomed constructive ideas to make the policy better. But all I got in the way of "critique" and suggestion was "this policy is bullshit" and "you suck WanYao" insults. No proposals to make it more workable, no suggested changes, just derision. So don't try to paint me as the one who hasn't accepted constructive criticism, DDR -- because you were never willing to seriously discuss this idea, you'd rejected it out of hand before it even got started. --WanYao 12:42, 22 July 2009 (BST)

Once again you simply prove you haven't read a great majority of what I had to say. I supported this thing but just outlined reasons why voting was a flawed and uninformed way of doing it. You responded by not addressing voting in any way, but with a persistent hatred of allowing Crats to monitor these re-promotions based on preposterous grounds that they weren't trustworthy, despite the fact that this policy would make them as liable as the sysops. I'm not repeating it all over again, you simply won't read. I'll just finish by saying that if I had "rejected it out of hand before it even got started" I wouldn't be helping Akule to perfect his similar, but workable policy. It just so happens that Akule here has been infinitely more flexible, co-operative and productive in the working of his, and in a tenth of the timespan.

Oh, and you didn't answer my question, when is this thing going to voting? You shouldn't have any reason not to, since, well, you'd "rejected the notion of modifying it before it even got started" and it's obviously in the form of which you'd like to see embedded in UDWiki policy, and if we are such an demonic minority, then the masses should be prepared to support it, so why not? --ϑϑℜ 13:00, 22 July 2009 (BST)

You really live in your own little world, don't you? You just confirmed my whole position by repeating that you "outlined reasons why voting was a flawed and uninformed way of doing it". In other words, you reject one of the fundamental, core points of the policy. And yet you expect me to work with that? You think that's a reasonable demand? Oh the hubris. --WanYao 13:13, 22 July 2009 (BST)