UDWiki talk:Administration/Arbitration/Spiderzed vs Doc Ryleigh

Cobra

I joined Cobra in March. At that time there were about 7 or 8 active members who were on the boards amg regularly PKing. Unfortunately the trophy lounge has now been moved to a private forum but if someone grants you access I'm sure you will see that borne out. Sally A Summers behaved as leader of the group and was accepted as such by the active members. I use the term leader loosely, Cobra's leader is largely ceremonial and is closer to a wiki sysop than a traditional group leader, i.e. instead of giving orders the leader is more likely to be doing wiki gnome work. Most things were decided democratically with members deciding whether or not they participated. In fact, this operation http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Talk:The_Fortress#Cobra_extends_its_gratitude was suggested by me, whilst I was still a recruit.

During this time Annabell Leigh had diplomatic status granting access to the private areas of the forum but at no point did she login or, if she did, she did not post. If you look at her recent post history on Proboards you will see that, other than her posts since the "coup" her last post was in October 2010. Likewise the user Gorbius last posted on December 2nd 2009 before resuming posting post "coup." Last month http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/User:Urgggggggh (group alt Doc Mindbender,) returned to the Cobra boards after a similarly long absence. He posted a few times but did not return to the groups core activities, namely gunning down innocent survivors for giggles.

At this time there were 10 full members who were actively participating in the group and 1 recruit who was fairly inactive. It should be noted that the users mentioned above had full access to the groups board and could have engaged in a dialogue about any issues they had with the groups leadership at any time.

A few weeks ago Spidey decided that, as a fairly democratic bunch of PKing sociopaths, we should have re-evaluations for the group's leader, board administrators and moderators. The election for leader was carried out first. Sally A Summers (Spiderzed,) was re-elected unopposed. Again, I reiterate, the members cited in this arbitration had full access to the board during this process and could have put up an alternate candidate or opposed the process at any time. There was a sneak PK attack in game around this time. I don't actually care about this, it's a game, we're PKers, we can take it. It's not a big deal. What I do have an issue with is what happened next.

Annabell has apparently had access to the founder account for the board since she was leader, before she left/went long term absent. Rather than engage in dialogue she chose to abuse that to "take back" control of the group. Unfortunately the group is made up of it's members and not defined by a forum. The members recognised Spiderzed as our elected leader, not someone who had been long term absent and had not contributed to the group in over a year, so we promptly all left for new boards which we had quickly set up.

In under 24 hours the active members of Cobra had all created new accounts on the new forum and, as we are the established group, we updated our wiki page with the new URL. I believe that common sense would dictate that the people who had been playing under a particular tag, who played together, who participated on joint operations and who had voted for their choice of leader should be recognised as the group. As such I believe that Spiderzed retains the authority to edit the wiki page. Domino Harvey 23:57, 22 June 2011 (BST)

I would like address some things. First, I support Spiderzed as the recognized leader of group. Second, since Goribus misquoted me, this is what I actually said about Sage's return or a new leader, http://cobrakills.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cc&thread=423&page=1#9022. No mention of a former leader returning. (Additionally I screenshot'd this post in case something should happen to it.) But to clarify that statement, I would think it rather obvious I would recognize Sage's return; I would not have recognized a petty attempt to steal the group by him. The members who support Spider (other than the neutral Yog)have been the ones keeping the group active. Goribus's members have either just joined or just returned. Skoll actually had the quickest time from recruit to member. We made Yog, a well established PKer spend more time as a recruit, since that has been the policy since Annabell's time or before. So, it seems obvious these new member and returning members are just to boost apparent group numbers. It comes down to a simple problem. Annabell/Goribus were not members of the group anymore, were never accepted as members, but rather just claimed ownership. We do not recognize their claim to the group. They have a forum, a forum of that only had one Cobra member, Yog. We have been and are still the face of Cobra in the game. I personally, can claim over 1 year of membership, I was the second to last member before Annabell left. By the time, Sage went AWOL, Cobra was basically me, Spiderzed and Blah. So, it's not like the old guard left under Spider, they were leaving under Annabell and Sage and were gone by that point. A final note, the one member of the old guard who stayed active during Spiderzed's leadership chose to come with us rather than with Annabell. Also, other than Yog, I don't think Sally knew a single member before they joined. I know I didn't, but as with any good group, I do now consider them my friends. --Kirsty Cotton 12:07, 23 June 2011 (BST)

Here's my rebuttal to both of you: Even if you toss out the fact that Annabell has a claim to the group, anyone that's run a PKer group with votes to determine staff for longer than five minutes knows to mass email all members so that even absentee members might return. It's pretty standard. See, that way if you can legitimately say that you contacted the group and the entire group had a chance to vote. Unless, of course, you feel that you could just sway things into your favor by calling for a vote and not notifying all members. What you did, even if you didn't intend for it to seem this way, is akin to a mutiny. Which would pretty much justify our way of thinking that the group needed to be taken back with force. So it looks like you being amateurs has come back to haunt you yet again. It kind of sucks for you, but please do keep giving me ammunition to strengthen my case. :D -- Goribus 12:51, 23 June 2011 (BST)

As for voting, the entire group is not active. Why should you get to pop up out of nowhere and have a say in a group you aren't active in? Even the wiki limits who can vote for sysop for just that reason. --Kirsty Cotton 12:57, 23 June 2011 (BST)

While there was a policy created to that effect, it was never passed. And there is no vote when it comes to promoting sysops: It's a community discussion that the 'crats evaluate at the end of the two weeks. Just saying. -- Cheese 18:52, 23 June 2011 (BST)

That's simple Kirsty: Because they're in the group. And a vote for said group effects ALL members and not just the active. See, I'm from a group that's been doing this whole election deal for years. And we kind of thought of every possible scenario including this one. So to eliminate anything negative it's become protocol to mass email our members. You'll sometimes get people you haven't seen in ages popping by, sometimes you'll get people asking for their accounts to be deleted because they don't want to be in the group, but you always get responses from the people that check their email but haven't been on in awhile. It's needed for staff votes, you'd know that if you had thought far enough ahead. But that's not you lot because what you've just told me is this: "We didn't let anyone know because fuck you if you're not active, you don't have a say." Like I said kiddies, please keep giving me ammunition to strengthen my case. -- Goribus 22:39, 23 June 2011 (BST)

You understand that is about wiki page ownership, not whether we meet UN voting standards, right? --Kirsty Cotton 13:12, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Yes. But page ownership is most likely going to be determined by who has the most valid claim as leader though. That's what Karek's looking for. At least I would assume so since he wanted a leadership timeline in addition to other factors. I really don't even think it would matter if there were 50 of you showing up to voice your support as group numbers are fairly irrelevant. At the end of the day what's going to decide this is who Karek deems 'the true Cobra' in regards to this wiki. Odds are it will be us as I've pointed out you made a mistake when you didn't mass email everyone. It would make the claims that Sally is a legitimate leader that was duly appointed more legitimate. But live and learn. -- Goribus 22:35, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Hello members of UDwiki, I am Mr Blahman, and I would like to give my account of my history with Cobra from my perspective. Being the most senior member who is in Spiderzed's Cobra, I remember many of these ex-cobra's who have usurped the forums.

I joined Cobra in December of 2009, which was at the time under the leadership of Annabell Leigh (Doc Ryleigh). I became a recruit and entered my induction period of 15 kills, which I completed in January and became a full member of Cobra. I continued to be a very active member of Cobra, performing many kills, participating in discussions, and actively doing anything to support Cobra.

Other members of Cobra at this time included Doc Mindbender, who was a part of the usurping party.

The Summer of 2010, I had IRL obligations that would not let me check on the group even once (mainly surgery and recovery, and going out of the country) So, I decided to go on hiatus from Urban Dead, and returned in the late fall of 2010 to Urban Dead. Upon my return I noticed an abundance of changes.

First of all, Annabell Leigh has left, and our special operations team Sisters of Death has disbanded/separated from our group. Sage Carr has become the leader, and I announced my return and began doing what I did in the past. Many members left, including Doc Mindbender and people who joined the Usurping Party that caused this fiasco. I discovered Kirsty Cotton, and Sally A Summers (Spiderzed, but I will call her Sally throughout this account as that is what I know him as) have joined when I was gone.

Then Sage Carr disappeared, as a leaderless and figurehead-less Cobra, we decided to act and appoint Sally A Summers as the temporary leader of Cobra until Sage Carr returned, and the decision was unanimous, with all active members of the entire group agreeing to this. We were not only her "Friends" as Goribus points out, but we were the entire group. Not a small circle of friends appointed her, but the entire group did.Therefore, Sally A Summers legitimately became the leader of Cobra.

The group at this time was going through a low point, with basically being a core group of Sally, Kirsty, and I Mr Blahman, keeping the group alive, continually killing, participating and sponsoring events, remaking the official Cobra wiki page, and recruiting heavily. By this, we have successfully increased our numbers to 11, provoked and PKed many members of prominent groups increasing our publicity.

In May, Sally wisely decided to hold elections for the leader of Cobra and administrators and moderators. The purpose of this was to avoid another fiasco like Sage Carr and to make sure that Cobra never goes leaderless and understaffed. This election was clearly visible to many members of the usurping party such as Doc Mindbender, Annabell Leigh, who could have easily seen the election, and just nominated themselves to do this democratically.

But on June 17, while in the middle of an election for Administrators, Annabell Leigh used an old root administrator account to "Reclaim" Cobra, which in turn meant she demoted everyone to a new user, and immediately put her friends as administrators and full members.

Their justification for this? Cobra was dying because of an inside joke involving ponies? Despite having one of the best times for Cobra with a good hearty public relation (As much as a PKer group gets) and high membership counts.

Absolutely disgusted by this act, Sally A Summers cooperated with all the demoted members, and moved to a new forum within 24 hours. Every member that was active in Cobra before the usurping, joined the new forum, with a majority of them deleting their account on the proboards forums, including I. --Krazymouse 15:32, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Yes. They could have seen things had they regularly gone to the forums. Which is not the case as Mindbender was surprised by how you were portraying yourselves on the wiki. Again, as I've pointed out you really should have mass emailed everyone. Sure, you PMed people, but I didn't notice until after I had came back under Annabell's new administration. Also, I should point out that you lot were demoted because your loyalty was in question. You were even offered the chance to become recognized as Cobra simply by asking for it. Other than a few of you, you would have been welcome backed with open arms if only you had asked. You chose instead to delete your accounts and side with Spiderzed. Which is your choice, but I'd rather not have people think that we had no reason for demoting you or the others. It was a legitimate security concern. Especially with the fact that logically you lot being a PKer group that now has a grudge probably shouldn't have access to internal knowledge. For example: our locations. -- Goribus 22:35, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Page Move

Shouldn't this arbies be moved to a subpage?--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 00:33, 23 June 2011 (BST)

It does. Domino Harvey's comment above should probably be moved as well. ~ _{01:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)}

i moved dat shit -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 05:35, 23 June 2011 (BST)

you forgot domino's shit. move it to the talk page --User:Sexualharrison05:50, 23 June 2011 (bst)

Guys, forget this. I'm the real leader of Cobra now, you can end this arbitration.--Yonnua Koponen ^{T G P} ^^^ 22:51, 23 June 2011 (BST)

as usual you're sense of humor is disappointing.--User:Sexualharrison04:43, 24 June 2011 (bst)

I'll give him a 2 for trying. Which I feel is very generous. - Goribus 22:35, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Comment

I just recently joined and then left Cobra. Mostly I left because the majority of the members RP themes didn't match the group theme. I wanted to join Cobra, not Prepubescent Anime Girls (who love Pwonies and bouncing their boobs around). Not that there is anything wrong with that, per say. Spiderzed and company were nice enough people. It's just that maybe a new group with a new theme for them would work out better for all concerned. Perhaps both factions here could agree to roll back Cobra's kill counter and Spiderzed and company could take their kills with them to their new group if that's a concern. Anyway, just my two cents.--The Baroness 22:27, 23 June 2011 (BST)

I'll talk to Annabell about it, I think that would be pretty reasonable. Also, since the real Cobra is back if you'd like to rejoin our side previous members can get back in just by requesting permission. We're a ruthless terrorist organization again, and not animu girls that love My Little Pony. We'd be happy to have you aboard, especially since you're obviously a fan of the show and of Cobra. -- Goribus 22:35, 23 June 2011 (BST)

Actually, http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Cobra&oldid=1248305 if you care to read right up there near the top where it says "We make no claim to actually BE Cobra, as they were fictional...". I choose that edit, since it was made by Bullgod. "You don't have to do what the group wants to do unless it's what you want to do. You don't have to do what I tell you to do, nor what anyone else tells you to do. Just don't expect anyone to listen to you either." This is how we do Cobra, it is up to the individual member. However, it seems with Annabell, you do have to do what the leader tells you. So, who is the real Cobra? --Kirsty Cotton 13:05, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Uh no. You still can do whatever you want in Cobra. Orders are still vague suggestions. However, we're at the very least attempting to be an homage to Cobra. I'm obviously not a cartoon character. But my character is implied to be a soldier of fortune. Also, as you've just seen by a neutral party yes your roleplay conflicts with what most people think of when they think of Cobra to the point that they didn't want to be a member of your group. Look, we both know that you lot aren't going to disband and we're not asking for that. You all know you'd be much happier with your own name and group identity and this is really about indignation. I get that, and it's fine. But at least I've been attempting to be civil. I've even been trying to not be dickish and be professional about the whole thing. Which apparently needs work. But I digress. -- Goribus 21:53, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Why not be civil from the beginning? Come on the forum and state your complaints. If you had approached as a member of Cobra rather than a hostile party, this could have been resolved on the board, most likely to the satisfaction of all parties. --Kirsty Cotton 22:36, 24 June 2011 (BST)

We approached as hostile members of Cobra. We figured it might be fun and both parties would have fun. Instead of being dragged into the current drama. Also there's the fact that currently there has been 3 Cobra Civil wars in the comics and one in the cartoon (albeit one in an alternate reality where Cobra had already won and therefore had no one else to fight but itslef). One is so recent that the trade paperback for it hasn't even come out yet. Oh and the fact that we believed not a single one of you would take us seriously. Because what's the first thing we found when we were made Cobra? That you were mocking us behind our backs with a veil of civility. Face it, we both know you wouldn't have taken it seriously and while you disagree with our methods I'm sure if you were in our shoes you may have done the same. - Goribus 23:03, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Mistitled

This case is mistitled: should be “Spiderzed vs Doc Ryleigh”, as these are the principals involved. (Cobra is the disputed page.) Shall I fix it, or would one of you gents care to? ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 23:11, 23 June 2011 (BST)

I would respectfully dispute that. I know I speak for several other members of Cobra as well as myself when I say that I consider the title absolutely apt. We do consider that this case is the group as is vs someone trying to eject us all and take control of our wiki page. Spiderzed is simply our leader and our representative. So please, do not retitle, it is fine as it stands. Domino Harvey 23:17, 23 June 2011 (BST)

I'm with revenant. In terms of the wiki, the case is trying to establish who is cobra's representative, not assuming that Spiderzed already is. The title should be changed immediately, especially since Spiderzed has pushed this in other cases before.--Yonnua Koponen ^{T G P} ^^^ 00:04, 24 June 2011 (BST)

I agree with Revenant and although this will shock everyone including myself I agree with Yon. As per precedent and wiki procedure this should be retitled for the reasons that both have listed. -- Goribus 00:20, 24 June 2011 (BST)

In the edit history you'll notice I said someone can change it at will since I was only moving it to what the header title said. Just do it, someone (dunno really what would be most right, tired)? -- ϑ^anceϑ^anceℜ^evolution 02:47, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Dun! Now, won't someone please pass the ? ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 04:37, 24 June 2011 (BST)

notice the nutsack on the bag --User:Sexualharrison04:41, 24 June 2011 (bst)

mmm buttered nuts. ~ _{04:47, 24 June 2011 (UTC)}

I'd rather not move it until the case is done. Right now it's asctetic and it's certainly not going to influence anything. Once it's over I'll move it to that title myself as it is obviously correct. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 10:11, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Personally, I don't care, since both the old and the new title would be factually correct. It's just a descriptor without any real meaning. -- Spiderzed█ 12:24, 24 June 2011 (BST)