Suggestion:20080501 The Tumbler Slug

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20080501 The Tumbler Slug

Tselita 18:15, 1 May 2008 (BST)

Suggestion type
Ammo Improvement
Suggestion scope
Survivors/PKers/Death Cultists

Suggestion description
This is a re-make of 2 earlier suggestions which I had in Talk:Discussion (sawed off shotguns and different shotgun shells - one of which I had initially put in voting but taken back to reduce its complexity).

I would like to start with TWO types of shotgun rounds. The standard Shotgun Shell (a Buckshot shell, most likely) and a Tumbler Slug (possibly would be called a Shotgun Slug instead). A shell and a slug are different types of shotgun 'bullets' and can not be used at the same time in the same shotgun. A Tumbler slug is a variation of a Foster slug, in that it has a groove on the side of the slug in order to alter how the slug goes through the air. Some grooves make a bullet spin faster, and makes the slug itself travel faster and farther. Others slow the slug down but cause an irregular spin. The tumbler slug has this latter effect.

The difference between the two Shotgun Ammo Types:

1) Shotgun Shell
Damage: Without Flak: 10, With Flak: 8
Accuracy: 5%, 30%, 55%, 65%
Burden: 2%
Special Notes: None - standard shotgun shell on Urban Dead - most widely found.
Found: Police Departments (5%), Armories (5%), Gun Shops(6%/9%), Junkyards (1%?)


2) Tumbler Slug (aka Shotgun Slug?)
Damage: Without Flak: 15, With Flak: 12
Accuracy: 2.5%, 15%, 25%, 40%
Burden: 2%
Special Notes: Does 50% more damage, but is 50% less accurate.
Found: Armories (4%), Gun Shops (4%), Police Departments (3%), Junkyards (1%?)
Summary About Shell: Tumbler slugs are slugs for shotguns with a groove so that, when fired, they 'tumble' (or more specifically, they wobble) through the air until they hit their target. Because the projectile is a solid slug, the force with which it is propelled is faster, in order to make up for the tumbling which will slow it down. The 'tumbling' causes the slug to be much harder to fire accurately, but when/if it hits its target, the tumbling effect also causes the bullet to bounce around in the target's body (rather than just getting lodged in one area), causing the damage to be more severe.


Why Didn't I Suggest This For Pistols?:
There are 2 reasons that I have not suggested something similar for Pistols.
1) Pistol slugs in the manner presented here stopped being made in 1879. Newer bullets are superior in a small firearm like a pistol.

2) Shotguns can use more of a variety of shells for a similar sized gauge (in this case, 12 gauge) than pistols, without having to introduce 10 additional types of pistols for different bullet types.

Voting Section

Voting Rules
Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped.
# justification ~~~~

Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.


Keep Votes

  1. Keep - Author Keep --Tselita 18:16, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  2. Variation - W 18:19, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  3. Keep - Sounds interesting, I see no major issues with it. --PdeqTalk* 22:38, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  4. Keep - Get me some targets. --Pvt human 23:20, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  5. Top Hat - I refuse to read this suggestion. --Karloth Vois TALK RR 00:19, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  6. I'll buy that for a dollar - I like how Karloth thinks. The insane have a clearer insight into the world than those blinded by sanity. I'll vote keep as well --Psalm42 00:24, 14 May 2008 (BST)
  7. Keep I like it.--Jamie Cantwel3 Talk 05:20, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  8. Week keep - a bit trenchy... but adds some flavor without changing the game balance. Re to kills below - server side implementation issues shouldn't be used as a justification. --  16:43, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  9. Keep - Anti-status quo vote. --Heretic144 19:26, 3 May 2008 (BST)
  10. Keep - Good for variation. --Shusamchen 08:42, 4 May 2008 (BST)
  11. Keep - variety is the spice of life :) --Frednotyetdead 22:38, 4 May 2008 (BST)
  12. Keep - Sounds cool, and more realistic, many shotguns nowadays have this ammunition --Mps93 18:56 (EST)
  13. Keep - Coding is not a valid kill. --UCFSD 14:01, 5 May 2008 (BST)
  14. Keep - As above. --Hhal 00:12, 8 May 2008 (BST)
  15. Keep - As above. I'm not too thrilled about this idea, but I don't see anything wrong with it that makes me want to vote kill. Kill votes using coding reasons are invalid and should be stricken.--Barton 17:38, 9 May 2008 (BST)
  16. Keep - I don't see anything that would make it a bad idea. And it's not a flare gun with 40% accuracy. Flak jackets do not lower the damage of flare guns like they would to the Shotgun Slug. I actually think it's a good idea. --Leon Vulcan 01:26, 10 May 2008 (BST)
  17. keep- As Leon Vulcan and UCFSD and frednotyetdead. And most other people here.--Katsman 23:11, 11 May 2008 (BST)
  18. Keep - I want moar guns to go bang bang boom boom --Stewie 05:24, 13 May 2008 (BST)
  19. Anal-Retentive keep - not trenchy enough Cisco 05:49, 13 May 2008 (BST)
    Keep - Weak keep, because it should really be changed to 32.5%, not 40%, if it's half the accuracy. Math is your friend -- Rage 16:42, 13 May 2008 (BST) Striking sock puppet vote. -- Cheese 23:54, 18 May 2008 (BST)
  20. Weak Keep - You can thank TAgUrIt for my change in vote - When I think about it, a reloadable flaregun without the ability to make a signal could be useful without nerfing flare guns (since they can signal). But it's weak keep because of the potential difficulty in coding. But like people have said, that's not a good reason to vote kill. Thank the Malton Globeploppers also, because they were so obvious about voting kill as because its your suggestion, not because the suggestion sucks (it doesn't suck, but it could be a lot better), and I hate griefer kill/spam votes. --Megadodo 17:55, 13 May 2008 (BST)
    Sure - Big suggestion, lots of votes. I like this slightly more than I dislike it --DeadManWalking 19:24, 13 May 2008 (BST) - Sock. -- Cheese 00:22, 19 May 2008 (BST)
  21. Keep- The game is broken and needs fixing. Maybe a change to weapons like this will help -- <Under Construction> Spyro 20:41, 13 May 2008 (BST)
  22. Keep-I dont think that they're called tumbler slugs, but most slugs do this sort of internal damage. I don't know about the accuracy or how the slug fires, but I do know that when they enter a person, especially through soft tissue, it does hit several organs when it's a solid slug. I've seen it in the OR. I vote yes. --Howser 21:49, 13 May 2008 (BST)
    Keep - You know more about guns than me. All I know is to have the thing where the bullet comes out be pointing away from me. Everything seems to be balanced. I don't think it'll be used by Kevan though because it's a minor firearm buff --Pander 22:39, 13 May 2008 (BST) - Striking sock puppet vote. -- Cheese 23:54, 18 May 2008 (BST)
  23. Keep - So what you're saying is I can kill a guy in 4 shots instead of 6. I'm all for efficient use of my valuable time --Machismo 00:47, 14 May 2008 (BST)
  24. Keep - Because I don't remember the last time there was a survivor buff --Schlindler 14:47, 14 May 2008 (BST)
  25. How is a new weapon retarded? And I don't understand what trenchy means. (first time voter - If I made a mistake, please fix it thanks) -- Allison 15:39, 14 May 2008 (BST)
  26. Keep - I partially agree with Haberdash, but not enough to vote kill. Firearms in general are stuck in a rut. I don't think this will pass peer review anyway, so it doesn't matter how I vote on this. --Sullivan 17:48, 14 May 2008 (BST)
  27. Keep - Nice idea, but one complaint - You write too long. When I started reading this suggestion, Iron-Man had just come out. --Zaphod Beeblebrox 18:52, 14 May 2008 (BST)
    Keep - Flare Guns can also signal, so they still have a use. --Lambert 20:00, 14 May 2008 (BST) - Sock. -- Cheese 00:27, 19 May 2008 (BST)
    Keep - Though it should be available only in armories --Coco Roco 09:49, 15 May 2008 (BST) - Sock. -- Cheese 00:17, 19 May 2008 (BST)
  28. Keep - As W. Canarsie Jones 17:24, 15 May 2008 (BST)
  29. Keep Wai Lam 17:51, 15 May 2008 (BST)
    Keep I think this should replace the flare gun - Flare guns are useless - Dr Feelgood 18:14, 15 May 2008 (BST) - Sock. -- Cheese 00:17, 19 May 2008 (BST)
    justification Shotgun ammo needs to be easier to find I havent been able to get one yet Guybrush Threepwood 17:52, 15 May 2008 (BST) - Sock. -- Cheese 00:17, 19 May 2008 (BST)
    • Re - - Is this a misplaced keep or a kill? You can't find the ammo yet because it's not in the game yet - this is just a suggestion. --Tselita 18:45, 15 May 2008 (BST)
Sorry I made a mistake thought I put this as a keep. --Guybrush Threepwood

Kill Votes

##:Kill Another worthless, self important Tselita gun suggestion. Please stop pretending like you know what you're talking about. Shotgun slug rounds are horrifically inefficient for urban combat, they are most often used when big game hunting in the Serengeti, or when being used by a S.W.A.T. team to bust open a locked door in a raid. Furthermore, some slug rounds require a special rifling pattern or even a smooth bore barrel. Why don't you suggest something like being able to bedazzle & sticker your cel phones, or how about oven mitts.
--The Malton Globetrotters#19 - DrPain TMG 18:43, 13 May 2008 (BST) -- Not sure if I can do this or if a sysop is supposed to but vote against the suggestion, not the suggestor. If I'm not supposed to do this, some sysop should --Rage 19:12, 13 May 2008 (BST)

  1. Kill I'm thinking here in terms of economy of Kevan's time. Adding a new type of shell is more or less going to require coding the means to select which kind of shell to be fired, and to what advantage? There'd be the exact same Damage Over Time between them. Too much effort on his part, to too little gain on our part. Iunnrais 18:28, 1 May 2008 (BST)
    • Re - To be honest, this would actually take a minimal amount of coding (though I admit I don't know much about coding) All it would take is adding a flag for shotguns that have the tumbler slug in it. If the flag is there, then it does 15/12 damage. If the flag is not there, it does 10/8 damage.--Tselita 19:16, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  2. Kill - don't like it, as Iunnrais, etc etc etc.--/~Rakuen~\Talk Domo.gif I Still Love Grim 18:58, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  3. kill - too trenchy --Lt.G Deathnut freelance 21:59, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  4. Kill - As a survivor player, I don't want to mess around with different shells. To look for shells only to find slugs instead or vice versa would be annoying. --Machinany gun 01:03, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  5. Cow - Udderly unnecessary.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  01:55, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  6. Anal-Retentive Kill - Because 50% of 65 is 32.5.--  ZZ Argh.gifEmot-zombie.gif 03:24, 2 May 2008 (BST)
    • Re - heh you're right. I had forgotten that during talk:discussion, several people had wanted it to be 25% and 40% instead of 23% and 33%, so I really should have removed that '50% less 50% more' or replaced it with 'a bit less than 50% less' - my bad --Tselita 05:35, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  7. Kill - No other weapons have more than one type of ammo, doubtful type is tracked along with number in loaded guns. Even if it is there's still no need for an additional higher damage lower tohit weapon in the game. Many props for irrelevant yet interesting weapon factoids though. --Riseabove 03:32, 2 May 2008 (BST)
    • Re - Many props for irrelevant yet interesting weapon factoids though. - I think this may be the nicest thing you've ever said to me. --Tselita 21:28, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  8. Weak Kill - Although I like the idea, there's no way to magically poof them into the game. If you incorporated this idea with a bullet-making thing, MAYBE. But those bullets have yet to be seen already, we need to respect the balance if we're not touching plot. --Vandurn 04:28, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  9. Weak Kill - I think the flare gun is already filling the "high damage, low hit" slot. The only thing it doesn't do is reload. Furthermore, I don't see how implementing a different slug type would be a better alternative than allowing the flare gun to reload if that is the aim of the proposal. Instead, you end up giving two "choices" to players, but they really aren't choices as you find one or the other. And what happens if I have 1 normal slug in my shotgun and want to add a tumbler? If it sets the old slug as a tumbler, too, then it seems like the tumbler or normal shell might be used exclusively, with the other shell being relegated to only being used when it can be transformed. If you refuse to allow 2 different shells into the same shotgun, what is the point of having them both as the same gun? I think the only option at this point is that each slug keeps it own state and they fire first-in-first-out. In summary, voting weak kill because it just seems like a way to make a reloadable flare gun ((without the signaling option)).--TagUrIt 17:23, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  10. Kill - would have voted keep if it lowered damage to 8 (max) and increased accuracy to 80% Thebattler35 19:44, 2 May 2008 (BST)
    • Re - I have a general distaste for the idea of weapons which have higher than 65% or 70% (at most) chance of hitting - too high and it makes what should be a 'chance' of hitting the target more into a 'guarantee' of hitting the target. Gives me something to think about for the future though. --Tselita 19:55, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  11. Kill - As RiseAbove. Also WEAPONS! GEAR! Please suggest Rocket Launcher or Flaming Fists of Doom next. --The Malton Globetrotters #99 DCC SNACK STRONG 20:14, 2 May 2008 (BST)
    • Re - Came up with yet another sig, I see? --Tselita 21:31, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  12. Kill Multiple ammo types are a "No" in my book. ----Secruss|Yak|Brahnz!|CGR|PKA|800px-Flag of the United States.svg.png|EMLN|Templates|RRF|RFTM|Crap|WHOZ|Evil3.gif|MU|GN|C2008|Chippy.gif|20:26, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  13. Kill Nice flavor and research in the suggestion, but I just don't want the added complexity of different types of ammo for the same gun in this game. --└Frozen┘┌Flame┐ 21:15, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  14. Kill - Interesting, but potentially overpowered. I also worry about suggestions such as this because of the possibility of a gateway effect: if we get tumbler slugs, what comes next? Glasers, hydroshocks, and Black Talons? Perhaps a handloading skill so the user can make his own wildcat rounds? The combat system in UD clearly follows the KISS principle, and suggestions like this fly in the face of that.--Jiangyingzi 04:23, 4 May 2008 (BST)
  15. Kill -- It's a bit too warm for trenchcoats right now. --Firemanrik 02:50, 7 May 2008 (BST)
  16. Kill - This ammo is too similar to existing ammo - I don't think it adds any new strategy, aside from being useful in above average damage situations. --Toejam 17:22, 7 May 2008 (BST)
  17. kill - not the worst idea i have seen. i just assume that there are many other types of shotgun and handgun ammo, where is the limit on this? --Scotw 18:51, 7 May 2008 (BST)
    • Re - To be honest, this is a re-make of an earlier suggestion I made then withdrew called 'Different Types of Shotgun Ammo' - where I listed 5 different shotgun shell/slug suggestions. People were saying it was overly complicated because there were too many shell types, so I re-did the suggestion and made it only the tumbler slug, which was one of the 5 types I had initialy suggested. --Tselita 18:57, 7 May 2008 (BST)
  18. Kill Very confusing and complicates the inventory system. I prefer your speargun suggestion. --Explodey 20:19, 12 May 2008 (BST)
  19. Kill Shotguns are fine as is, leave them alone. --Emot-siren.gif LABIA on the INTERNET Emot-siren.gif Dunell Hills Corpseman The Malton Globetrotters#24 - You rated this wiki '1'! Great job, go hog wild!|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| TMG 10:04, 13 May 2008 (BST)
  20. Kill Worthless and overcomplicated. Also, shotgun slugs don't work the way you think they do. --Cryptosporidium 20:49, 13 May 2008 (BST)
    Weak Kill - Might nerf search rates too much --Megadodo 17:49, 13 May 2008 (BST) - Changing vote to weak keep after reading over the kill and keep votes --Megadodo 17:51, 13 May 2008 (BST)
  21. Kill You do not understand the function of slug rounds. See discussion.--The Malton Globetrotters#19 - DrPain TMG 22:43, 13 May 2008 (BST)
  22. Kill If this suggestion was any more retarded it would be locked away in an institution. --Capt Schwartz 02:44, 14 May 2008 (BST) (FIRST CLASS - NOT RETARDED)
  23. Kill - The accuracy scaling for the weapon is far too inconsistent. Maintaining a few loaded shotguns is hard enough without having to pick and choose / dump ammo. --The Malton Globetrotters#4 - Haberdash 555Manbabies.gifTMG 17:07, 14 May 2008 (BST)

Spam/Dupe Votes

  1. Spam - There is no need for new firearms options. --The Hierophant 23:21, 1 May 2008 (BST)
  2. Spam - Yay, let's make the flaregun completely useless! --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 08:52, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  3. Spam - This a flare gun with 40% acurracy! FUCK NO! 'Nuff said. --WanYao 10:10, 2 May 2008 (BST)
  4. Spam - As WanYao. Sounds like a bad idea to me.--Carnexhat 08:53, 7 May 2008 (BST)
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