UDWiki talk:Open Discussion/Welcome templates

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Comments here Linkthewindow  Talk  11:50, 10 July 2010 (BST)

DDR just pointed me at his sandbox which has some suggestions in it too. Again, what I've posted on the page is just a suggestion, if anyone's got any others, it would be more then welcome. Linkthewindow  Talk  11:57, 10 July 2010 (BST)


Starship troopers

Most people dont read it anyway, and I dont believe in it. Personally I'd lose it all but the headings, which would have links next to them saying, would you like to know more... --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 11:58, 10 July 2010 (BST)

I'm basically aiming for what you are suggesting, but keep the really important stuff like how to sign. Linkthewindow  Talk  12:03, 10 July 2010 (BST)
I never looked at mine, but I can definitely see the need for what Link has proposed.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 12:10, 10 July 2010 (BST)

atm no need to add, just remove

Quickly adding to what I said at User talk:Linkthewindow/Making WN Useful:

  • Streamline "general editing" section so it emcompases important stuff like vandalism and outsource the rest to relevant help links
  • Remove project mentor, merge it with the "additional contacts" section at the bottom.
  • Remove "Your page" and "talk pages" section and replace them with links to Help:Creating Pages, Help:Making a Group or Character Page and probably UDWiki:Vandalism
  • Remove 80% of the information under "suggestion pages" because it's already in the suggestion namespace. This was probably because 70% of all suggestions were made in 2007, a further 20% of those in 2008, but the wiki's changed, the number of noob suggestions has dropped dramatically.
  • Remove all the sysops names from "additional contacts". Don't see why they were ever there, it seems forced and makes Axe Hack sad, it also makes me sad. A simple link to Special:Listusers/sysop is good enough. Make a bigger deal out of Project Mentor instead.

That's systematically saying what I think should be done with each section of current WN.

--

12:29, 10 July 2010 (BST)

Yeah, suggestions is something that really needs to go, although I do see some value in keeping the DS link so they really know to look at that page. Will need help in simplyfying the rules, although the only one that a newbie really needs to know is something along the lines of act in good faith. It's probably also worth giving impersonation a mention, too. Linkthewindow  Talk  12:38, 10 July 2010 (BST)

I like the trimmed down welcome template. Basically the more simplified it is, the better it will work.--GANG Giles Sednik CAPD 13:28, 10 July 2010 (BST)

One more thing...

[/uncle] I prefer the background not being white, because the yellow stands out more. If it's white it doesn't seem as important.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 17:24, 10 July 2010 (BST)

A colour, but not yellow. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 17:25, 10 July 2010 (BST)
Yeah, that was just an example, but I really don't like plain background.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 17:32, 10 July 2010 (BST)
blue, -- 17:35, 10 July 2010 (BST)
CornflowerBlue (6495ED) for a header and LightSkyBlue (87CEFA) for the main body?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 17:42, 10 July 2010 (BST)
LightSkyBlue hurts my eyes. Technical Pacifist 17:51, 10 July 2010 (BST)
Alternative? --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 17:54, 10 July 2010 (BST)
White. Make it look less like a template. Research shows templates get ignored faster than what seems like standard messages. I've ditched the use of {{WelcomeNewbie}} entirely as a result, and have started using more plain-text drops, as you can see here, number 13 a-c. Projects Mentor and Welcome are quite dead, and instead of pointing people towards them, I've found it much better to point them towards the sysop team, given that the current crop is very active and mostly helpful to new users. If you're going to focus on Projects Mentor and Welcome, you need to make sure they're going to be trafficked more heavily than they are. Nothing to be done! 19:14, 10 July 2010 (BST)
What about adding a link to the signature changeing page? I couldn't find that for nothing.-- Jerrel tlk (82nd!) (Project Unwelcome!). 01:44, 11 July 2010 (BST)
The what? Nothing to be done! 01:46, 11 July 2010 (BST)
The page that tells you how to do all that fancy stuff to your sig. last time i tried to change mine I couldn't for Nothin!-- Jerrel tlk (82nd!) (Project Unwelcome!). 02:23, 11 July 2010 (BST)
Help:Templated Signatures. It's one of, if not the, first search result for "signatures". Nothing to be done! 02:40, 11 July 2010 (BST)
Exactly why I didn't make it in the style of the current WN templates. Yellow/blue makes it look too much like an automatic message/spam, and less likely to be read.
I'm open to suggestions for the "places to look for help" section. Linkthewindow  Talk  02:30, 11 July 2010 (BST)
I think mentor is fine. I hear mentor references being used all the time when a newbie asks for help. -- 03:21, 11 July 2010 (BST)
Project welcome is pretty fail though. -- 03:22, 11 July 2010 (BST)
True, its probably also worth keeping the Mentor list more activily pruned. Linkthewindow  Talk  07:05, 11 July 2010 (BST)
This. Also colors is a bad idea. It's already annoying enough without messing with page formatting if they happen to have it. --Karekmaps?! 16:23, 11 July 2010 (BST)
Indeed. Linkthewindow  Talk  01:04, 12 July 2010 (BST)

I like. Although i'd get rid of everything bar how to sign and a 'feel free to drop by my talk page' thingy. xoxo 03:25, 11 July 2010 (BST)

You forgot a link to ALIM! -- 03:41, 11 July 2010 (BST)
ALiM is still somehow getting a plethora of daily visits with pretty much no help from the 2C boiz. Like seeing your favourite child grow up i feel a mixture of sadness that i'm no longer needed and satisfaction for what a great job i did raising my baby. xoxo 06:34, 12 July 2010 (BST)
Oh get out. You whored that shit hard, alim is the Linsday Lohan of udwiki, ruined and drugfucked and addicted now, not respected at all. I hope you're proud of what you've done. -- 08:05, 12 July 2010 (BST)
Hey, alim still has some class. in between the dross there's the occasional mean girls. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 10:08, 12 July 2010 (BST)
And lindsay's mum couldn't be prouder.xoxo 15:35, 13 July 2010 (BST)

If you have anything

It should be subst'd, not just a template you slap down. When I (used to) welcome people to Wikipedia I tended to relate it to something I'd seen them doing, which is how I'd found them anyway.

Bug Jorm if you really want the skinny according to MediaWiki studies on how welcome templates should be done (short version: they shouldn't). ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 08:18, 16 July 2010 (BST)

Agree that they should be subsisted and malleable. I might just leave the text I've got on the front to use as a template (in the literal sense) and recommend people use it as a starting point for welcoming a user (ie: include tips on creating a group page if that's what they are doing.) Linkthewindow  Talk  09:13, 16 July 2010 (BST)
Gimme twenty minutes to finish pooping and get dressed. I'll knock up some subst templates using plain text, applying to specific things you've seen the new user doing. Nothing to be done! 14:54, 16 July 2010 (BST)
Right, we should definitely have one for group pages and suggestions, and keep the general one on the main page. I suggest we either add a couple of lines of text to the one I've already set up, or make a whole new one, I don't really care. However, we should probably have something on basic formatting on all templates.
On another note, anyone think it's a good idea to whack up a "Basic Wiki Rules" page. Although, to do that, we might need to reform the system :P Linkthewindow  Talk  15:26, 16 July 2010 (BST)


Uhm, you guys do know that the system automatically gives newcomers this info anyway right? Has for years. Just finally be done with it, don't even bother with this you're just wasting everyone's time really. --Karekmaps?! 15:58, 20 July 2010 (BST)

More advanced wikis do autodrops based on the root admin's account, this one will let newbies linger unaided without manual input. Of course the proposed upgrades could probably fix that, but then again that'd turn this debate into one centred on what the autodrop would be. Nothing to be done! 21:24, 20 July 2010 (BST)
You don't need that just ooptimize the interface in the mediawiki page. Again I reiterate, This Wiki Already Welcomes New Users With An Information Page. One the sysops can edit even. Developing what amounts to a bot is a waste of time and about as annoyingly worthless as welcome newbie already is/was. "Yay! Some helpful a-hole just put the thing I already didn't want to read on my page! How helpful, maybe he can tell me how to enlarge my penis in six easy steps too!" Go go more incensere and actuall unhelpful spam. Just be a good member of the community and watch recent changes new editor section and contact people if they actually seem to need help insted of encouraging a bot to autogreet people. You know, like welcomenewbie does. --Karekmaps?! 00:48, 21 July 2010 (BST)

This Procedure Should be Discontinued.

I posted this on the Template talk itself, and Mis said I should put it here. You may find it interesting; you may not.

So, as some of you may or may not know, I work for the Wikimedia Foundation, which, as you are aware, writes this wiki software and runs Wikipedia. As you might be able to derive from that bit of information, I, uh, know a lot about wikis, wiki communities, and the research that goes into what's going on with them.

A couple weeks ago we had an interesting talk with a couple researchers who were studying the patterns of editor retention on en, de, and fr. Specifically, they tracked the life-cycle of editors from first edit to never returning. This cycle could (and did) include editors moving into administrators. However, even administrators quit eventually.

One thing they discovered was that, surprisingly, "welcomenewbie" templates turned more people away than they helped to retain. There is a clear correlation about this. In fact, simply doing nothing is better than splatting a template onto a user's page: mechanically inserted text (such as welcome templates) give users the impression that the wiki is not a community but rather a system of software, which is typically the exact opposite impression desired.

When welcoming new editors, it was shown that the best thing to do is to write personal notes in a positive tone. The next best thing is to simply say nothing.

The fastest way to get an editor to leave is to revert them and leave a negative template on their talk page; the next fastest is to revert without response; the next level is to leave a template of any kind.

You can read their paper here if it is of interest to you.

Something to think about. --jorm 02:22, 23 July 2010 (BST)

Bump

This really needs to be dealt with. WN is probably one of the dodgiest issues on this wiki. I'd recommend we carry out a vote on something by the end of the month. Continue this discussion, I command you!--Yonnua Koponen T G P ^^^ 17:30, 12 September 2010 (BST)

I stand by my original assertion that {{WN}} should be phased out in favour of plain text. Nothing to be done! 18:51, 12 September 2010 (BST)
Plain text in the form of a template, or plain text written at the time?--Yonnua Koponen T G P ^^^ 18:58, 12 September 2010 (BST)
The former, what Axe and Mis do, seem just as plastic as the WN template to begin with IMO. ESPECIALLY since 70% of the time when the user makes a bad/vandal/namespacefail edit, all they get is the plain text template and no actual guidance. If they aren't used properly, they are just as bad as the original yellow text monster. -- LEMON #1 05:57, 13 September 2010 (BST)
Ditch this. No templates. Just text. Trust me.--jorm 05:40, 13 September 2010 (BST)
I'm definitely leaning towards that, but should we have some kind of outlawing on WNing? If it isn't helpful (And therefore shouldn't be considering a good faith edit), should it be the case that it's considered spamming (and punishable as such)?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 07:37, 13 September 2010 (BST)
No need to outlaw it, per se, just start enforcing it as spam, as you suggested. Obviously we'll allow for some transition time, as people may not be aware of this discussion and a decision to start considering it vandalism. But yeah, we either need carefully tailored plain text that is specific to different situations, or else no templates at all. —Aichon— 18:10, 13 September 2010 (BST)
Well, the reason I was supporting a vote is that it would be linked to the main page.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 20:08, 13 September 2010 (BST)
True, but I'd prefer avoiding policies over minutiae, especially when a new solution may present itself later that might be against that policy if we word it poorly. —Aichon— 04:02, 14 September 2010 (BST)
Oh come on there's no need to make putting the template there a vandal worthy offence. honestly if people want to post it they can (within the rules of spam; ie 20 pages or whatever it is) but perhaps just let WN people know that you'd prefer they did it like 'x'. xoxo 01:16, 16 September 2010 (BST)
+1. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 09:42, 19 September 2010 (BST)

Bump (again)

Bumpity-bump. ~Vsig.png 15:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

It would be a good idea to mention...

...right now that new accounts get a small welcome message similar to this just as soon as they register and right before they start editing. Right now, I'd like to think of this WN template as a reminder of that message they get. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 18:44, 22 May 2012 (BST)

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