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Developing Suggestions

This page is for presenting and discussing suggestions which have not yet been submitted and are still being worked on.

Further Discussion

Discussion concerning this page takes place here. Discussion concerning the suggestions system in general (including policies about it) takes place here.

Nothing on this page will be archived.

Please Read Before Posting

Be sure to check The Frequently Suggested List and the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots before you post your idea. There you can read about many idea's that have been suggested already, which users should be aware of before posting what could be a dupe, or a duplicate of an existing suggestion. These include Machine Guns and Sniper Rifles. There users can also get a handle of what an appropriate suggestion looks like.
Users should be aware that this is a talk page, where other users are free to use their own point of view, and are not required to be neutral. While voting is based off of the merit of the suggestion, opinions are freely allowed here.
It is recommended that users spend some time familiarizing themselves with this page before posting their own suggestions.
With the advent of new game updates, users are requested to allow some time for the game and community to adjust to these changes before suggesting alterations.

How To Make a Suggestion

Format for Suggestions under development

Please use this template for discussion. Copy all the code in the box below, click [edit] to the right of the header "Suggestions", paste the copied text above the other suggestions, and replace the text shown here in red with the details of your suggestion.

===Suggestion===
{{suggestionNew
|suggest_time=~~~~
|suggest_type=Skill, balance change, improvement, etc.
|suggest_scope=Who or what it applies to.
|suggest_description=Full description. Check spelling and be descriptive.
|discussion=|}}
====Discussion (Suggestion Name)====
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Cycling Suggestions

Developing suggestions that appear to have been abandoned (i.e. two days or longer without any new edits) will be given a warning for deletion. If there are no new edits it will be deleted seven days following the last edit.

This page is prone to breaking when there are too many templates or the page is too long, so sometimes a suggestion still under strong discussion will be moved to the Overflow-page, where the discussion can continue between interested parties.

The following suggestions are currently on the Overflow page: No suggestions are currently in overflow.

If you are adding a comment to a suggestion that has the deletion warning template please remove the {{SNRV|X}} at the top of the discussion section. This will show that there is active conversation again.

Please add new suggestions to the top of the list.

Suggestions

Artwork Recognition

Timestamp:	Sorakairi 03:42, 2 April 2009 (BST)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Humans
Description:	I thought of this with a friend, and he was going to put it here but he didn't so I will. Bit fuzzy on the title, so i would welcome new names.In this one, say Human 1 sprays "generic words here", then goes off. Human 2 comes along, and Human 2 has both the skill and Human 1 in his contacts list. He sees this grafiti, and recognises it as Human 1's. so you get a message saying " The ____ has been spraypainted with _____. You recognise it as Human 1's work." Obviously this wouldn't work for zeds, as their brains are too messed up and confuzzled to recognise certain human artwork.

Discussion Artwork Recognition

Hmmmmm, not bad, but i do like the anonymity of graffiti so i'm gonna have to say nup.--x o x o 03:56, 2 April 2009 (BST)

There would still be anonymity because it only applies to contacts. What about a % chance of recognizing it?--Pesatyel 04:02, 2 April 2009 (BST)

This is a dupe, it was called Graffiti Artist or something similar. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:09, 2 April 2009 (BST)

That, and it just wouldn't work. They're messages, not advanced works of graffiti art. It's pretty hard to develop a unique style in Malton, you know? --LaosOman 19:08, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Head Shot And Brain Rot

Timestamp:	James bodkin10:32,29 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Skill effects change and possibly new ones
Scope:	Zombies and Survivors
Description:	My idea is to make it so zombies with brain rot would have a 50% chance of avoiding the effect of head shot but zombies without brain rot would still suffer its effects 100% of the time. This could be justified by the brain being hit with a bullet in the rotted area would not have an effect if the brain was already damaged, however zombies without a rotted brain would still be damaged by the bullet.This could lead to a new zombie hunter skill that increases the chance of a successful head shot.

Discussion (Head Shot And Brain Rot)

Nice and all, but zombies with Brain Rot have accepted being headshot every day. The pain of headshot isn't against those with BR, it's against those at level one who lose a third of their AP per day. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:11, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I agree with Iscariot after creating my first zombie character I cant wait to get the 1AP stand up skill. Rogueboy 22:40, 2 April 2009 (BST)

5AP to stand up ain't all that bad. If anything, headshot should be buffed.--3R 00:09, 3 April 2009 (BST)

Hunt in Darkness

Timestamp:	--01:45, 2 April 2009 (BST)Necrofeelinya
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Zombies
Description:	Addressing the issue of darkness, when a zombie has Scent Fear it can smell its victims and tell what the state of their health is. Yet it can't find them in the dark? Darkness should be an asset to zombies. I suggest Hunt in Darkness as a zombie skill, costing 100 XP with a prerequisite of Scent Fear, which negates defensive bonuses from darkness for humans. It just means you can track 'em by scent in the dark, and it just makes sense.

Discussion (Hunt In Darkness)

I really like the idea of this, and it makes perfect sense, but it seems a little unbalancing. How about this: a darkened building doesn't impede a zombie's attack %, but if the building is ruined, the mildew etc. interferes with their sense of smell and they suffer the same penalty as survivors.--Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 02:53, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I don't know about negating the darkness penalty against zombies. What about, instead, just -25% instead of -50%. Something like that.--Pesatyel 04:15, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I think darkness already unbalances the game in favor of humans. They crowd into darkened buildings for the defensive benefit piled on top of the benefits of 'cading, which is a LOT of defense. For high-level zombies it's annoying, for low-level zombies it kills their interest in the game. They already have it hard enough, they don't need to deal with any more obstacles. Also, I think that since this only affects darkened buildings, its effect is minimal. While it would force a change in survivor defense tactics, that doesn't necessarily unbalance the game. For purposes of game mechanics, let's remember who's chasing and who's being chased, here. Realistically, humans get almost all the benefits of darkness, which isn't how it should be. Ideally, I'd like to come up with skills that ease the path for young zombies without overly benefitting higher level zombies, but that's a tough challenge. And while I think it's reasonable to suggest lessening the darkness penalty against zombies, I wonder if that would be enough of an effect for people to bother buying it as a skill; sure, they would eventually, after everything else and when they were glutted with XP, but by then if you made head lice a zombie skill everyone would buy it. If it's just a reduction in penalty, which I could see, then I'd say change it from a skill to a standard and make it apply to all zombies from birth, with it constantly in effect. That would benefit the new zombies as well, which would be good.--Necrofeelinya 05:02, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I'm aware of all that. I'm saying you'll have an easier time "selling" the idea in a weaker form. The majority of wiki patrons are militantly pro-survivor (or at least used to be, it may have changed) and, ultimately, its up to Kevan to decide just how much of a percentage to allow. I'm not saying I don't like the idea, I do, I'm saying its going to be hard sell.--Pesatyel 05:05, 2 April 2009 (BST)

What if I were to suggest the idea in two forms, one as a skill as I suggested pretty much as is, and the other with the lesser percentage modification you suggested, which makes it milder, but changing it from an acquired skill to a zombie norm from birth, which is more helpful to new zombies than making it just something else they need to buy before they can start having fun? I could treat it as two separate suggestions, and people could choose which, if either, they prefer. Or is that frowned upon, with it being better to put up one suggestion and then resubmit its modified form later if it's rejected?--Necrofeelinya 05:39, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I'm sure we've heard a zombie scent skill to negate darkness, did it ever go to voting? Anyone? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:12, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I think the trenchies whined so much that it didn't get past discussion... Oh and the "hide in plain sight" lot were not happy either. --Honestmistake 12:22, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Suggestion:20080530 Life Sight Seems similar enough. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 19:31, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Not really. That was rejected for being supernatural, too soon after implementation of darkness, and just plain weird.--Necrofeelinya 20:21, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Suggestion:20081205 In The Dark Maybe? Both similar in a way. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 19:35, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Yeah, okay. You're right about this one.--Necrofeelinya 20:21, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I think the hiding one has more real merit. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 20:22, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I was initially in favor of this idea, but you're kind of talking me out of it. As to survivors crowding into heavily caded darkened buildings I don't think that really happens. Remember darkness gives a penalty to barricading. Zombies laying siege to a bank should hold off on killing the generator until they've eaten the occupants. I like the tactical consideration of that so now I disagree with this suggestion. --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 20:29, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Well frankly if we're going to go with a zombie skill that negates darkness why not create a human skill or item that would negate the darkness for them as well? This way no one could call it unbalanced and would make the playing field seem slightly more even for zombies. I would suggest a flashlight or something but I can see how easy it would be shot down if it doesn't boost search rates. Mind you must've spent over 100AP looking for a fuel can haven't found it, I tend to skip over dark spaced with my low level zed however you can drag survivors out of dark spaced with the other skill (don't remember any skill names if someone hasn't caught that yet) Rogueboy 22:44, 2 April 2009 (BST)

"shot down if it doesn't boost search rates?" What are you on about? Dark buildings aren't for searching in - there are always better places. Flashlights are shot down for other reasons, too - complex and unbalancing. And where the heck are you looking for fuel cans, unlit clubs? --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 23:10, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Hide in Darkness

Timestamp:	--01:45, 2 April 2009 (BST)Necrofeelinya
Type:	Improvement
Scope:	Zombies
Description:	Zombies naturally hide in darkness. It's one of their chief assets, but it doesn't work in the game unless they're a prone corpse in a darkened building. At the moment, humans get as much advantage from darkness, in fact more, than zombies, despite the Scent Fear and Scent Death skills available to zombies. This makes no sense. Zombies should be nearly invisible in darkness, with humans having perhaps a 25% or less chance of seeing a zombie in a darkened building, corpse or not. I just think this should be a given, not a skill. Yes, I know, skills that allow for hiding are generally instakills, but in this case I think the scope of it is so small as to make it acceptable, being restricted to just darkened buildings, of which there are few enough.

Discussion (Hide In Darkness)

I agree that zombies tend to hide in darkness, but that's usually against survivor noobs who are trying to negotiate a fresh outbreak. In urban dead everyone is a hardened badass who knows to look in the shadows for danger. Also this would be unbalancing, those banks, clubs, etc. occupy some critical free running spots. --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 02:56, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I wouldn't really characterize everyone in Urban Dead as a hardened badass. Newbies just don't fit the image, and they usually know it. And even hardened badasses are at extreme risk when exploring a darkened building. My suggestion is, if you want to explore a building safely, install a genny. It's much safer than groping around in the dark. And it doesn't affect free running that much, except if you free run into a darkened building to sleep. The nature of the game doesn't allow much interference from zombies if you're just passing through, unless they ruin the building, and that's something else entirely which is already implemented. If you sleep in a darkened building without fully exploring it first, you deserve what you get, and the game already allows for corpses to be invisible in the dark, so zombies can already ambush that way... it's just an impractical and implausible scenario so it doesn't happen often.--Necrofeelinya 05:26, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Actually, I think it is the reverse. SURVIVORS actively attempt to hide, not zombies. Zombies don't have the cognitive reasoning to do so, especially if survivors are present. The immediately attack, not hide. If a zombie is "hidden" its because of chance cirucmstance or becuase something the living did. But THAT is standard zombie genre and Urban Dead is NOT "standard" zombie genre. Nobody must be on otherwise you would have gotten a LOT of, shall we say, negative feedback about "hiding". Suffice to say, its not a good idea. Urban Dead is overly simplistic and it wouldn't, really, be fair for one group to not be able to deal with the other, especially if your at "half chance" to hit.--Pesatyel 04:21, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Again, I think the impact is actually minimal. The odds of humans being locked in a 'caded and darkened building with a zombie are slight. If it happens, it's because the human didn't install a genny and clear the place properly. And it can already happen that way if the zombie is just a corpse, having not gotten up after being killed by a human or fellow zombie. In fact, I'd argue that there's more chance of a zombie timing out and then logging back on in a building survivors had reclaimed than of humans getting locked in with zombies who "hide" in the dark. Plus, the way I've suggested it, humans get a 25% chance of spotting the zombie in the dark, meaning that odds are if there are 4 zombies or 4 humans in the building, someone is likely to see him. 2 zombies and 2 humans in there? Each human has a 50% chance of spotting a zombie. There's nothing this change accomplishes that can't be done already, except for one thing... active zombies can approach survivor strongholds more stealthily by hiding in darkened buildings to gain an element of surprise. That's minor, but useful for zombies and doesn't unbalance the game. And even with that, it accords humans a good enough chance of spotting them coming as long as they explore their area. No horde could approach this way undetected, so don't worry about the Mall Tours appearing out of nowhere. This change is not a game breaker by any stretch of the imagination.--Necrofeelinya 05:26, 2 April 2009 (BST)

As far as I know, zombies that idle out inside a building will appear outside it when starting to play again. However, it's quite easy to end up with a zombie in a caded dark building if a zombie breaks in and the surivors don't see him (though there can't be many of them) and then cade back up. That simple. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:11, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Or if someone enters a darkened building, 'cades it up and doesn't install a genny to search for corpses, which are already invisible in the darkness. That kind of ambush is already possible in the game and hasn't broken anything; that's why I don't understand this fear that it'll create massive loads of ambushes... those ambushes are already possible and nobody's complaining.--Necrofeelinya 19:18, 2 April 2009 (BST)

What exactly do you mean with 25% chance? How often is it? Is it every time you refresh the page? Every time you enter the building? Once a day? --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:11, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Now that's a reasonable question. In honesty, I hadn't thought about that angle, but I'd suggest every time you enter the building. Every time you refresh would seem like overkill, if it were a 25% chance with every refresh it would pretty much negate its influence almost immediately. I could see an automatic once a day as well, though. That would make sense.--Necrofeelinya 19:14, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Let's not turn clubs in trenchie ranches. Also if you don't think a horde could use this to approach undetected, you've never seen the discipline of some of the MOB teams. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:15, 2 April 2009 (BST)

CNR. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:21, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Clubs = dark. Check. Suggestor said in commentary "No horde could approach this way undetected, so don't worry about the Mall Tours appearing out of nowhere." Check. Which bit have you caught me not reading again? --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 09:25, 2 April 2009 (BST)

"Zombies should be nearly invisible in darkness, with humans having perhaps a 25% or less chance of seeing a zombie in a darkened building, corpse or not."

That, or I'm completely misunderstanding what you mean with "trenchie ranches". --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:36, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I feel compelled to quote Karek from the talk page of the pejorative term you attempted to ascribe to me: "Should probably be mentioned that when people use this they usually are the ones not reading, it's essentially self proclaimed stupidity. At least that's how I've always seen it, no way to lose an argument faster than accusing the other person of being CNR.--Karekmaps?! 21:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)" --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 09:49, 2 April 2009 (BST)

So, care to explain what you actually mean with the term instead of just going "ha, you lose!"? --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:55, 2 April 2009 (BST)

You pretty much summed it up there, Midianian. --Thadeous Oakley 12:19, 2 April 2009 (BST)

I have no idea what a "trenchie" is, so I find it hard to respond, but It seems like St Iscariot is under the impression that mere discipline would allow hordes to approach this way... not a chance. The 25% chance to see a zombie in darkness when applied to the number of zombies in a horde would automatically reveal to survivors that a large group is approaching. They wouldn't see them all, but they'd see enough to know that something is up. That's why I like this suggestion, it helps ferals, tiny groups and new zombies while doing nothing for large groups and megahordes. Just the kind of changes the game needs.--Necrofeelinya 19:25, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Hiding in any form has pretty much been ruled out by voters in the past for many, many reasons (some of them even quite good!) However I do think there is some potential for not seeing corpses in dark rooms. zombies and survivors both move about and thus could be heard... corpses don't do much of anything so it would be reasonable fair to say they are not visable in a dark room unless you search for them (1 search reveals all?) Not particularly useful but it would add a new twist to hiding in plain sight etc... --Honestmistake 12:28, 2 April 2009 (BST)

This appears silly. Surely the fact that zombies are biting you lets you know they are there? --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 19:27, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Not sure I understand, Ross, but yes, once zombies attack they would obviously be revealed. Until then, they'd be invisible like corpses are under the current rules, but with a 25% chance of being spotted by humans upon entering and a 25% chance every 24 hours of being spotted by those residing in the building. I don't see that ambushes are a big concern, since corpses can already do everything that standing zombies can under these conditions, but it would make stealth approaches mildly easier for ferals, new zombies and small groups. Honestly, not how I envisioned it when I proposed it, but after thinking about it that seems to be how it would work, and I like it even more after consideration.--Necrofeelinya 20:00, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Oh, and no, I didn't propose this to screw survivors in Borehamwood and Monroeville, though I realize after some consideration that it would potentially be highly detrimental for your character there. I don't think that's enough of a reason to reject it, given the overall benefit for promoting feral, new zombie and small group play. I'm sure you and the rest of the survivors there will find ways to adapt, you always do.--Necrofeelinya 20:07, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Major Repairs Unlock Part of Building Description

Timestamp:	Saburai 02:10, 1 April 2009 (BST)
Type:	Flavor
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	Hello, all. I don't edit Wikis much, so pardon any formatting errors. Also, there's no need for hostility; if you think this is a bad idea, just say so and I'll take my medicine without regret. There's been a lot of discussion about how it's unfair that a 3 AP repair and a 40 AP repair have the same XP reward. I don't think those complaints have much merit; I've done dozens of suicide repairs, in Borehamwood no less, and I'm not complaining. But I do think it would be fun if, after completing a sufficiently mammoth repair job, you could edit part of the building description. It would work like a graffiti window. The minimum unlocking job could be, say, 50 AP (a true suicide repair), which frankly seems to represent a complete remodeling of the structure. The basic text descriptions we all know and love would remain (i.e. "You are standing outside Ruggevale Walk Police Dept, a large concrete building with arched windows") followed by "Someone has constructed... " The subsequent text could be anything from "a skylight shaped like a pentagram" to "an additional wing south of the hospital with Spanish Tile and working fountains." Make it around the same length limit as a graffiti message. Let me extend this idea to one more level of complexity: 50 AP repairs buy you the chance to add flavor text to the inside. 70 AP and higher repairs let you add a description to the inside and a different one for the outside. When the building is ruined, the new flavor text disappears forever. I think that would encourage more suicide repairs, shut up some of the whining about them, and lead to more colorful interiors and exteriors for everyone. Has this been proposed before? Is there a reason it will never work? I considered the possibility of spammers typing in things like "Someone has constructed a giant statue of your mom" or "Someone has constructed ____/\____\o/___" and other silliness. Yes, that will happen, but this isn't a 1 AP spray-can action. Given how rarely a player will have the opportunity to do this, and how much it will cost (often it will be the last thing they do before getting killed), I think most players will put some effort into their descriptions. To be clear, this change would have no effect on game mechanics whatsoever. It's just an opportunity to let user-generated content add flavor through a realistic application of the current game model. Cheers.

Discussion (Major Repairs Unlock Part of Building Description)

Interesting idea, I think its temporary nature makes it a really possible plan. It would really add to Ruin Repair bragging rights. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 02:42, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Thanks for bringing up the ruin repair bragging rights. I didn't mention this in the write up, but that's a major part of it for me (except more on the zed side). Other than Borehamwood, I generally play brain-rotted zeds, and nothing pleases me more than trashing a perfectly decorated, powered, awesome building. I can imagine groups of survivors getting very attached to their buildings' flavor additions, and zeds taking obscene pleasure in destroying them. Thus, it encourages both sides. If I submit this formally, I'll have to play the bragging rights up.--Saburai 06:37, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Certainly an interesting idea, but i think it would make suburbs that periodically have every building past the 50ap point looking really trashy. And as the only way to remove someones description that may be a false PK report or a link to goatse or whatever is to reruin the building, we'd end up with a whole suburb with poor taste graffiti that no one can remove. I think people should suicide repair because they enjoy it or for the overarching benefits, not so they can post novelty supergraffiti. Props on thinking outside the square though.--x o x o 04:31, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I dunno, the fact that it needs to be >50 to be useable implies that the suburb is an unused and undisputed suburb. I think it would add to the bragging rights outside of the metagame scene. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 04:47, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I obviously agree with DDR. Any suburb with several 50AP repair buildings is going to be mostly ruined, which means NO flavor descriptions (they'd all be destroyed). The only buildings that would be "stuck" looking "trashy" would be the ones in very well-maintained neighborhoods where no zeds come through to "clean up the decorations". And in a neighborhood like that, it wouldn't be too hard for the local survivors group to arrange to have a friendly zed ruin the building to clear the objectionable material. This idea is very hard to do (wait for a building to get totally ruined >50AP, taking several weeks, then spend 50+AP repairing it), but very easy to undo (one zed, 5AP to ransack and ruin in five minutes). That also makes it a high value target for pride players like me (survivor and zed).--Saburai 06:37, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I think that I would like it more if hyperlinks were filtered out, the description wasn't permanent (time limit of 3 months or next suicide repair), and the level of decay was higher (75+ ap). Either those 3 or give the repairer a drop down menu of a bunch of options for what to install. Really cool sounding idea and very far outside of the box! --Johnny Bass 06:02, 1 April 2009 (BST)

If blocking hyperlinks is easy to do, that seems like a good idea. I'm not coding it, after all. The flavor text WOULD be filtered out by the next suicide repair. As I said, and this may bear repeating, the descriptions are cleared when the building is ruined. By the time you go to repair it, it must have been cleared by the zed who left the building in need of repairs. In most cases, this would be much less than 3 months. It's very, very easy to undo. That's part of the charm; it adds to the challenge. You arrive in a 80AP-repair schoolhouse. Obviously, you're in a dangerous neighborhood, otherwise why did the building remain vacant so long? You want to rebuild it to look like YOUR high school, with an red-and-white brick Edwardian facade and an oak grove yard. But if you do the repair and a zed finds you, he'll kill you and ruin the building, deleting your work. What do you do? How do you protect it? If you succeed, you now have a building that's uniquely yours. Would that change your play style? Would you stick around defending it? Would zeds try harder to break in? That's what I want to find out. I don't like the idea of a drop down menu because standard, repetitive descriptions are exactly what I'm trying to change! I want to make Malton look like something. I want an outlet for my creativity. I want to surprise and entertain players, not give them another rote text block to ignore.--Saburai 06:37, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Having a player interface that allows limited customization of buildings would be a really good idea but I think you might be underestimating some peoples willingness to abuse it for the sake of annoying folk. Sure it is pretty easy to undo but I think it is a valid concern and I am not sure Kevan would be happy reverting the inevitable obscenities on demand. Perhaps limiting the ability to donation accounts would make it feasible for the server to keep track of who is doing the redesigns and thus ban anyone abusing them? --Honestmistake 09:06, 1 April 2009 (BST)

That's a valid point, but wouldn't that argument also apply against graffiti? People DO use graffiti for annoying other players and for griefing, sometimes. They also use it for serious things, and for fun things. Graffiti is very easy to do (around 5-10 AP to find a spray can, 1 AP to write with it), and about as easy to undo (ditto). My proposition is VERY hard to do (wait 20 days for building to fall into sufficient ruin, with no one repairing it, 50 or more AP to do repair), and fairly easy to undo (once a zed gets inside, 6 AP). Whatever work Kevan has to do reverting constructed obscenities would pale in comparison to his daily graffiti duty (the cans currently block profanity, right?). Actually, I wasn't aware he took any such action; I see cleverly obscene graffiti all the time.

Anyway, if, at enormous AP expense, someone puts up an irritating construction, 1) that's at least something interesting to go do in Urban Dead, and no one HAS to read the flavor text; 2) it will motivate other players to undo it, probably just by having a zed ruin the building. Remember, that offending building won't even be eligible for a new facade for several weeks.

Weigh that occasional inconvenience against the additional interest of having customized headquarters for various factions, AND a reason for zeds NOT to ruin temples crafted by death cultists in red/gray zones. All in-game; no metagaming required. If anything, I think the flaw in my proposal is that it's TOO easy to undo the construction. Only a handful of buildings would fall into sufficient ruin for remodeling and simultaneously remain safe from ransacking zeds for any length of time. That's why they would be prized, and a tremendous incentive not to waste the remodel. Let me ask you this: Are the kinds of people who like to spraypaint "...a picture of your sister naked" the same kind of people who like to do suicide repairs? In my experience, those are two diametrically opposed personalities. --Saburai 09:32, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I am not even considering stuff like "your sister naked" as that's harmless... I was thinking more like people posting real or wiki user names and abuse or even phone numbers. People would be willing to make throwaway zergs to post stuff like that and while it wouldn't be too hard to remove if you had the will it should be avoided in the first place if at all possible. --Honestmistake 10:20, 1 April 2009 (BST)

A "throwaway zerg" with construction, a toolbox, 50 AP, and a totally ruined building in safe neighborhood or working with a team to immediately barricade-in (to avoid immediate re-ruin and deletion of the construction project)? Again, I think you're arguing against graffiti, not my proposal.

It is indeed very easy to create a zerg, find a spray can, spray something obnoxious like my name and social security number, abandon the character and disappear. If you spray it up in Ridleybank, it WILL stay on the wall until Kevan deletes it. My proposal would require such a troublemaker to have almost a perverse dedication; it would take days of playing the zerg finding the necessary equipment, skills, and location, preparing for the "prank". How often could that possibly happen? And if Kevan can keep the world from ending with graffiti going up every minute, surely he can spot the 1-5 abusive suicide repairs a year. I'm just not seeing the danger here. Can you be a bit more specific on what such an evil player could do to game this system, that he COULDN'T do much more easily with a spraycan? Or, alternatively, can you suggest some ways such abuse could be prevented? --Saburai 15:00, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I think it's brilliant. I'm not so much worried about the occasional obscenity or listing of phone numbers, but some asshole(s) could ruin this for everybody, right? Create groups of both zeds and survivors. The zeds squat in a building (or several) until it requires a 50AP repair. Survivors roll in (while zeds move on to a different building), do the repair, then squat to protect their very own personalized building. I want the idea to work, but isn't it a zerg's wet dream? --Paddy Dignam^{IS DEAD} 18:25, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I don't see how it's a "zerg's wet dream", any more than any other mass behavior could be. Remember, newly spawned zeds can't ransack (and so can't ruin a building to prep it for your hypothetical strike team), and newly spawned survivors can't barricade or repair (and so can't remodel a building or hold it against zeds). Even if the zerg team was high-level, the survivors you hypothesize can only protect one building at a time, unless you're imagining some ne'er-do-well spawning infinitely many zergs to stake out a huge chunk of Malton. If someone wanted to do that, why haven't they done it already? How is this idea more prone to zerg abuse than heavily barricading entry points, dropping zeds in dark buildings to block repair, or any number of other existing mechanics that haven't broken Urban Dead?

Nevertheless, I respect your concerns. I've been thinking a lot about how the dynamics of this would play out. What it comes down to is this: holding onto a flavor building would be very hard. Once the zeds found out about it and decided to destroy it, there would be almost no way to stop them, even if it was deep in green territory. Unlike other kinds of sieges, where humans can sidestep a zombie attack by hiding next door while the zeds exhaust themselves on barricades, in the case of protecting a flavor building, there's no way to escape. Once the zeds break in, the addition gets trashed, quickly, and there's no easy way to rebuild it, except by leaving the building in ruin and somehow keeping survivors from repairing it prematurely. Similarly, zeds could not hold onto an "evil cathedral" (for example), because an uncooperative zed could waltz in and ruin it. In every case, high visibility remodeled buildings would become targets and would not last for long. Which is fine: I think the transient nature of the improvement is part of the charm and prestige of accomplishing it. Holding onto a flavor building would have intrinsic merit, not for zergers, but for any group that likes their customized headquarters.

Just to sum up, everything about this plan seems to lean toward making it rare and difficult to do, even rarer and more difficult to make stick, and very easy (and desirable!) to undo by zeds, who naturally love to destroy survivors' most prized possessions. I don't know how it could become a regular suburb-wide phenomena; the dynamics just don't favor it. But it will create the possibility for interesting new play mechanics and plot lines, in game. It will do so without unbalancing ANYTHING, although the new behaviors, if they catch on, could reveal or highlight existing imbalances in the current rules.--Saburai 19:18, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I like this. But. Make it an option from a drag down list. 10 or 11 different options to choose from, removes the spamness of the ability. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 19:25, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Hey, Rosslessness. I respect your opinion, and I suppose a drop down list is better than nothing, but another level of predictable text is not what I'm trying to achieve. I don't think that 10 or 11 text options will lead to the sense of attachment that will encourage people to act on this feature. It might still marginally increase the prestige of a suicide repair, but it really misses the creative outlet I'm going for. Also, wouldn't you need 10 different options for each building type? The options for a school house would be very different from those for a factory. That would make the implementation MUCH more time consuming (hey, unless Kevan is looking for work to do...).

As I've said above, game dynamics would make these flavor buildings rare and short lived. Do you think having a police station briefly described with "Someone constructed an attached covered patio/Someone constructed a bell tower/Someone constructed a horse stable [CHOOSE ONE]" would really make the game any more interesting? I can't imagine any 10 flavor text bits that would be interesting enough to take the time to read, but generic enough to go on any building in any situation. That's what the buildings have now, after all. The only way to make this a worthwhile addition is to open it up to user content, with the unpredictability and messiness that entails. If it's unworkable, it's unworkable, but I'd rather have it be unworkable than be predictable. --Saburai 19:54, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I always get confused by people who read feedback and respond in a reasonable manner. Yep. I did mean 10 for each building type. Hmm. In fairness I guess people doing suicide repairs aren't all that trenchy, and may add reasonable things. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 20:25, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Since this is just the discussion section, let me brainstorm for a moment. I'm wondering whether there's a simple, user-driven mechanism for quality/spam control that allows complete creativity and rewards good work. I'm not changing my proposal, just speculating. Hear me out. Let's talk about interiors, for example. What if a 50+AP repair gave you a window like this: "You totally renovate the ruined building. In addition to the original interior structure, you add [text entry panel, 100 characters]." When a player does this, the description of the building interior changes to "<normal description>. Portions of the interior are covered by tarps, indicating heavy construction." Ok, now the magic happens when the building is re-ruined and repaired (at ANY AP value). The person who does the next repair gets this message: "You repair the building damage. Under the tarps, you find [suicide repair person's name] has constructed [previous repair work description]. Do you wish to remove the tarp (0 AP), or dismantle [player name's] work (5 AP + 1 XP)?" If they remove the tarp, the change becomes a part of the building description until the building is ruined (at which time it is lost; no second tarp). If they destroy it, the building becomes a regular repaired building. If someone attempts to remove his/her OWN tarp, he gets a message saying "You repair the building damage, but decide your renovations need more work before revealing them." That way, two players have to concur that the remodeled building adds something. That would make it much harder for spammers to use this improvement. I think this system is a little too complicated for my taste, but it resolves the spam worry. What do you think about that, Rosslessness? --Saburai 21:17, 1 April 2009 (BST)

It might be simpler to include a mechanism for survivors to ruin/repair the improvement almost as if it were a generator. Perhaps require a toolbox and 10 actions to demolish and show the names of anyone vandalizing the feature. --Honestmistake 11:18, 2 April 2009 (BST)

That's an interesting compromise. There's obviously a few ways this could work.--Saburai 17:13, 2 April 2009 (BST)

OK, thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm going to mull it over and submit it back to this queue in a few days in some modified, hopefully improved form. After that: Peer Review! The general sense I get here is that people think this would be fun, but want a mechanism to control abuse, which is perfectly reasonable. I think we can find a way to make this practical. --Saburai 17:13, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Direction With Most Group Groans (revised)

Timestamp:	A Big F'ing Dog 21:58, 31 March 2009 (BST)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Feral zombies
Description:	This is an idea to help zombies follow their group better without using metagaming. Could be introduced either by a new skill or a feeding groan improvement. Upon logging in zombies would get a message telling them which adjacent suburb (the entire 10x10 area) had the most groans overall from members of their group in the past 24 hours. This includes groans out of the normal 6 block feeding groan hearing range, ones that are too far to pinpoint the origin of, but close enough to faintly detect. It might look like this: You heard multiple groans from your group to the west.

Discussion (Suggestion Name)

"This is an idea to help feral zombies follow their group better" - Basic logic, please learn it before suggesting anything again. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 22:22, 31 March 2009 (BST)

Correction, non-metagaming zombies. You read the last version, you know what I meant. --A Big F'ing Dog 05:22, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Revised means something has changed. You pick, I can either comment on the first change I saw or I'll just paste over my commentary on the last one? Because according to you, reading the last one means I know what this one's supposed to be... --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 07:38, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Once again, you limited it to your group. And once again, it's not useful. Feral zombies are unaffliated, so this wouldn't affect them anyway. Secondly, listening on where the most groans from your group came from is very misleading. The biggest feral group would be the Feral Undead, and they have 158 members. Out of those, perhaps 20 would groan in the time you're logged off. Many of them are in different areas. What this means is that if 4 zombies groan from NE, 3 from W, 1 from E and the other six directions have 2 groans each, you'll go NE. You have no idea what suburb those groans even came from, and the chances of coming across your group members are rather slim. If you were to make it so that you could pick up on the most groans from anyone, you'd have a general idea of which direction has the most brains for you to munch on. But even then, it has its problems: if a groan comes from 2 suburbs to the west and 1 to the north, is that NW or just W? If you answer W, then the span of west is far too wide for this system to be a good guide to brains. --LaosOman 11:13, 1 April 2009 (BST)

Contagious Bite

Timestamp:	--Honestmistake 09:46, 30 March 2009 (BST)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Infectious bite subskill which helps newly turned zombies.
Description:	So virulently infected is this vile specimen of zombiehood that their bite is not only infectious but that infection has become contagious. Should an already infected target be affected by a contagious bite they will be considered to have the Infectious Bite skill until they are cured! Obviously this is going to have little effect on survivors who are not killed as they don't bite people and tend to get cured pretty damn fast anyway. On the other hand a survivor who is killed while contagious may find that the option to infect people is enough of a boost to their attacks that they are happy to remain a zombie for a while instead of rolling up to the nearest revive point? Rather than making it possible to get revived/infected/killed and thus gain the skill for free I would think a natural recovery would be essential and would suggest that the chance of recovery should be something like 25% checked each time the 'carrier' stands up.

Discussion (Contagious Bite)

Put simply this skill does nothing for the zombie who buys it and no additional harm to the survivor who is bitten, if the bitten survivor stands up as a zombie while infected he or she will have a very good chance of having the chance to infect others with their bite even if they do not have the infectious bite skill... the more often said zombie dies though the more chance that they will lose this ability unless they buy it properly. --Honestmistake 09:57, 30 March 2009 (BST)

On a related note, I know that it is possible for zombies and survivors to use some of each others actions via the Url and if bite is one of those it should benefit from this for no better reason that it would be funny to do and scare the crap out of any poor sod it happened too ;)

Zergers could very easily abuse this: Get one contagious zed, bite a bunch of low-levels zergs and get them killed to trigger the effect (25% is pretty big), and voila! Easy infecting zergs. Anyway, if a survivor is killed and becomes contagious, chances are they're going to still just shamble to a revive point and get a revive. They won't have many other zombie skills (unless they're high-level and have infectious bite already), so they won't be able to do much anyway. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 18:16, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Zergers can make use of pretty much anything so that always needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. In this case the zerger needs to start a new zed, get revived, get the double infection and die. Having done all that they then have a level one zed with temporary infectious bite at base (20%?) until they die a few times... thats a lot of effort for so little gain--Honestmistake 19:53, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Freerunning: 2AP, toggle

Timestamp:	Swiers 16:50, 29 March 2009 (BST)
Type:	revision
Scope:	freerunning skill
Description:	As title says. Freerunning could be toggled on and off, say via radio buttons immediately below the minimap. Moving with Freerunning would cost 2AP. Moving without would cost 1AP, as it does now. Obviously this addresses both complaints that free-running is overpowered, and that it forces survivors to risk falling from ruins.

Discussion (Freerunning: 2AP, toggle)

Probably one of those duptastic ideas that is to controversial / major a change to ever pass voting, eh? Swiers 16:50, 29 March 2009 (BST)

Meh. Toggling would be annoying. Especially if you forget it on/off in the wrong situation. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 18:20, 29 March 2009 (BST)

True. How about when you are inside, neighboring buildings have TWO buttons on the mini-map, one for free-run movement and one for normal ("unskilled") movement? Ruins would not have the free-run movement button, because you can't free-run into them.

Swiers 21:38, 29 March 2009 (BST)

In a manner of speaking, that is already part of the game. You have the "leave" button.--Pesatyel 01:02, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Not even vaugely similar, given its limits and mechanics. The "leave" button would still have the same use (or lack there-of) as it does now.

Swiers 04:37, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Sure, the leave button puts you outside the current building while free running moves you inside another. This suggestion, free running moves you inside another building and the "toggle" would put you outside the other building. But the mechanics are, basically, in place already, just that the "toggle" puts you outside your current building instead of the next one over.--Pesatyel 08:41, 30 March 2009 (BST)

You can't leave from a building that's over VSB (at least not if you have free running). --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:30, 30 March 2009 (BST)

What he said. The "leave" button only allows you to leave your building if it is VSB or less, regardless of what skills you have, and costs 1 AP. Moving without free running (either because you lack the skill or because there is a toggle) puts you outside an adjacent location for 1 AP. Moving with free-running puts you inside an adjacent location. So if your goal is to end up outside, having free running currently both limits your options, and costs more AP. The "leave" button does NOT solve this problem; it typically either costs more AP (1 to leave, 1-move), or is totally useless (if you are not in a sub-vsb building).

Swiers 20:02, 1 April 2009 (BST)

I would vote for this... Freerunning is way too cheap as it stands but increasing its cost without allowing it to be turned off would be too much. --Honestmistake 23:27, 29 March 2009 (BST)

This is a dupe, however since this stipulates a toggle button, that gives it an inherent disadvantage, namely a player could forget or hit it accidentally and be trapped outside. I would probably neglect to find the dupe link if this went to voting in its current form. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:18, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Plague (revised)

Timestamp:	A Big F'ing Dog 06:42, 29 March 2009 (BST)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Infectious bite subskill
Description:	There are several good comments about my current suggestion Plague (too overpowered and KISS among others) and this is my stab at a better version. Comments are welcome. Plague would be an infectious bite subskill, a more severe form of the zombie disease that can linger in weak immune systems. If a zombie with the skill bites an already infected survivor with less than 25HP the survivor would become plagued. You can be plagued and infected simultaneously, but even with both a person only loses 1HP per turn with no other ill effect. It does not stack with infection. An FAK will always cure infection, but not so with plague. If you have plague and infection and cure your infection, you can still be plagued. Plague will only drain health if you are below 25hp though. A plagued survivor with 25+HP will keep the plagued condition but have no ill effect. If they are ever reduced to 24HP or lower though, the health drain will resume. If they healed back to 25HP the drain will stop, etc. You can theoretically play forever with untreated plague, it just makes you more vulnerable to health drain if you're ever injured. There would be three ways to be cured of plague: Revivification syringe injection while living. This would spend the syringe but only cost 1AP, used on yourself or other survivors. Being treated with a FAK in a powered hospital, utilizing the superior environment for healing. The surgery skill would not be necessary. You could still use a FAK to cure plague even when people are at full health. If infected and plagued, getting healed in a powered hospital would cure both simultaneously. Dying. Unlike infection plague would not continue after being revived.

Discussion (Plague revision)

The previous version, when put up for voting, just wasn't clear. You might want to allow those with Surgery to do it in an unpowered (but undamaged) hospital maybe. I don't think Surgery is a skill most people REALLY use. A lot of players heal for the XP and its more economical to NOT take First Aid and Surgery (especially because of all the latter's restrictions), so this might make the skill more useful. The whole idea of using a syringe to heal it kinda bugs me. It seems like it would make NT buildings even MORE a focal point then they already are, and I don't think that is a good idea.--Pesatyel 09:24, 29 March 2009 (BST)

I want new survivors without necrotech skills or surgery to be able to heal their plague somehow though. --A Big F'ing Dog 15:00, 29 March 2009 (BST)

Of course, hence the being able to do it in hospitals without skills but with power. But what if the hospital doesn't HAVE power? At least if the character has Surgery, they can still do it.--Pesatyel 20:46, 29 March 2009 (BST)

This won't make the game more fun for zombies because of the indirect nature. It will just end up as a additional annoyance for survivors.--Thadeous Oakley 13:35, 29 March 2009 (BST)

It gives zombies a way of prying survivors from defended structures like a mall or fort by forcing them to either leave to the nearest powered hospital or use up a syringe. And it gives zombies additional strategies. Right now its either infect as many as possible, or focus on killing one. --A Big F'ing Dog 13:54, 29 March 2009 (BST)

It cuts down on the "mall/nt-centric" gameplay. Survivors hang out in those two locations cause that is where all the good stuff is. Sure it makes it easier for zombies to "know" where the survivors are, but it also means theres like a couple of hundred survivors there too, which doesn't exactly make it easy either.--Pesatyel 01:06, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Reading Improvements

Timestamp:	Kite 12:07, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Improvement
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	The book's usefulness needs to be improved, plain and simple. It's very hard for a survivor to gain XP by reading book since it only gives you 1 XP for any other class than a Scientist which gives you 2 XP, Scientists who, unlike Civilians, more specifically, Consumers don't have, and that reading a book usually DOESN'T give you XP, since, for some reason, the chance of you learning from a book is roughly 10%. This is bad for classes such as Consumers who have very few other ways of gaining XP. Some may argue that people with most weapons without training you'll get about the same ammount of XP out of roughly the same ammount of hits/readings. while this is true to an extant, it's also misleading, since most people don't need to be trained to read a book. It is obvious that books need to be improved, but how? Well, the most obvious choice is to improve the likely hood of earning XP from a book, maybe to 20% that you'll gain XP. Will this be unbalancing to the game? No, contrary to the idea that libraries then would become more important to survivors would be true, but the idea that they would make all other forms of XP gathering obsolete would be a great assumption, since, as XP is learned and other opportunities would be openned up, using books for XP would be the thing becoming obsolete. Really, in every sense books are for newbies who have no other ways of earning XP, a back up plan, and should be made much more useful for their purpose. A few other ways of balancing book reading is by making the likely hood of earning XP much higher and the likely hood of the book being used to be thrown away after use, this would more realistic and less of a lottery ticket for one XP and more of an exchange of one AP to one, possible XP, it still wouldn't be an absolute sure fire way of earning XP but would make reading more rewarding and less frustrating for beginners.

Discussion (Reading Improvements)

This is a logical idea, and my only complaint is how long you take to explain it. Tell me if I've done your concept an injustice by condensing it to: "In my mind, books aren't useful enough. How about we up the odds - just a little, say to 20%, from 10 - that you actually learn something from reading?" -CaptainVideo 06:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You shouldn't be using books as any kind of serious source of XP. This is a zombie apocalypse, not a librarian apocalypse. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 11:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Which would be quieter.--Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 11:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

So much quieter... Anyway I like this idea, I'm all for it.--Super Nweb 21:14, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Crucifix Uses

Timestamp:	Super Nweb 03:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Improvement
Scope:	Humans
Description:	Crucifixes as we know have no uses. When I immagine this I am thinking of a large crucifix, something about a foot long by 6in wide, like this. Not one you wear on a necklace. You could attack with a crucifix with these accuracies. Without Hand To Hand Combat - 10% Chance to hit, 1dmg Hand To Hand Combat - 25% Chance to hit, 1dmg When you hit someone with the crucifix it would say one of these "You hit -Player Name- on the head with a crucifix dealing 1dmg" "You randomly swing a crucifix at -Player Name- with little result" If you are hit it would say "-Player Name- whacked you on the head with their crucifix doing 1dmg"

Discussion (Crucifix Uses)

... So, exactly like punches, except it takes an item. Naw. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 03:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

It's mostly for the flavor, the only useful melee weapons are Fire Axes, and Knifes. The others could all be compiled into one, since they (Excluding the crowbar and the pool cue), are the same.--Super Nweb 03:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The game already has baseball bats, tennis rackets, hockey sticks, pool cues, cricket bats, fencing foils, crowbars, golf clubs and ski poles. What do they have in common? Nobody uses them. The game doesn't need more melee weapons.--Pesatyel 03:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok how does another melee weapon hurt the game? It just adds flavor for users, it is in no way going to harm your gameplay so why strike it down?--Super Nweb 04:29, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Spam, primarily. Flavour's nice, but not more of the same flavour. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 04:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Because it doesn't really IMPROVE the game in anyway.--Pesatyel 05:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Crucifixes should be useless in the game, just like they are in real life. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 05:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes they serve no magical purpose against the undead, but getting hit with a 1 foot long block of wood would still hurt.--Super Nweb 21:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

As would it hurt getting hit with a generator, yet you still can't attack with one. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 21:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

That's a bit harder to swing, I mean you can attack with a toolbox!--Super Nweb 20:20, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Crucifixes aren't weapons for a reason: they fail too much. --3R 19:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a dupe. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:08, 2 April 2009 (BST)

More ways for zombies to gain XP

Timestamp:	LaosOman 22:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Skill/game mechanic changes.
Scope:	Zombies
Description:	Currently, zombies have four ways to gain XP - destroying people, destroying barricades, destroying buildings and destroying stuff in the buildings. There should be more, partly to give a small boost to the zombies and partly to encourage more altruistic behaviour... -- Feeding Groan. Upon groaning, you gain XP equal to the amount of survivors present, with a maximum of six AP per groan. You can groan again, but this won't net you any more XP unless the amount of survivors increases. If one zombie groans in the building, another zombie can still get XP by groaning over the same crowd. Removed the ruin and drag suggestions - dragging would be abused, as one commenter mentioned.

Discussion (More ways for zombies go gain XP)

I'm pretty sure each of those has been suggested individually. Also, at least the Feeding Drag one is quite easily abused. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 23:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I am intrigued by the feeding groan suggestion. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 23:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Nom nom nom! I think the numbers you suggest are a bit high, but +1 XP for drag/ruin/groan would be good. Think of the babah zambahz! Billy Forks 00:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that zombie XP gaining is limited to only a few actions, I also must concede that zombies only have a few actions. With the exceptions of groaning and shambling around, zombies can potentially gain XP for just about any action they choose to take. That's why most XP suggestions boil down to "make this easier so we gain XP faster" or "give XP for this action that currently gives no XP."

I'd be more interested in seeing zombies given other options of things to do for XP, rather than just provide XP for every possible existing action. People like to say things like "survivors can gain XP 8 ways, and zombies only 3, it's not fair," and that's not an invalid statement. But compare the number of possible actions both players can make.

By my count (and I could be miscounting), survivors have 22 possible ways to spend their AP: Moving, talking, attacking others, dumping bodies, building barricades, repair ruin, install generator/radio, repair generator/radio, destroying generator/radio, destroying barricades, searching, reading, healing, DNA extraction, revivification, tagging, firing flare, transmitting on radio/phone, manufacturing syringe, taking NT scan, consuming beer/wine, refueling a generator. It is possible to gain XP with 9 of these possible actions. 41% of the possible actions survivors can take can gain them XP.

Zombies only have 12 possible ways to spend their AP: Moving, talking, groaning, gesturing, attacking others, attacking barricades, ransacking, ruining, destroying decorations, destroying generator/radio, dragging survivors to the street, scent death. It is possible to gain XP from 5 of these actions. 42% of the possible actions zombies can take can gain them XP.

So really, it's about the same-- a little less than half the possible actions a player can take are potential XP earners. If we talk about common actions, then survivors (who fight, barricade, search, and heal-- 50% of which gain XP) have a slight disadvantage compared with zombies (who fight, attack barricades, and groan-- 66% of which gain XP).

Again, invent new things for zombies to do to earn XP, instead of giving XP for more things they already do. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 02:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

An interesting list. You forgot "stand up" and "feed on a corpse" and "open door" all of which I believe give you no XP? 5 out of 15? 33.3%?--Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 11:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Zombies can't explicitly open doors, it's a part of entering a building, which I think is a part of moving. Survivors on the other hand are missing "close door". --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 12:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I forgot "stand up" for both sides, "feed on corpse," "close door," "jump from building," "send text message" and "re-tune radio/transmitter." But that might be all of them that cost AP. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 15:59, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Thing is, they ARE zombies, so they ARE limited in what they can do. Urban Dead zombies aren't "typical" zombies (ie they are smarter or more capable) but they are still relatively restricted to "typical" zombie abilities. So there are very few choices on new wasy for zombies to earn XP.

Give more XP for the XP earning abilites they already have.
Give XP for non XP earning abilities they already have (I actually think the Feeding Drag one has potential for this because of the risk the zombie could be considered to be taking by getting "locked out", besides, tossing bodies gives XP).
Create new abilities that earn XP for a zombie. This last is definately the hardest both becuase of the genre restriction AND the game balance restriction. There are two ways to do that.
- "Emulate" survivor skills that gain XP such as these
- Make up entirely NEW abilities.

Both of which aren't easy. The former, people will argue that you shouldn't (or don't need) skill emulation and the latter, again, has to do with both game balance and genre restriction. Intrestingly enough, I did a quick through the peer reviewed zombie skills and there really aren't ANY that are XP earners (beyond the temporary increase in damage or increase in the ability to do damage). So, the question is, what can zombies do that fits in to genre and balance? There IS one aspect that most (hell probably nearly all) players ignore and that is the ability of zombies to use melee weapons. They've always been able to but using a melee weapon is inferior even to a convert's bite (for the most part, especially since even converts would be using claws). So what if we did something with THAT ability?--Pesatyel 09:51, 29 March 2009 (BST)

Thanks for the comments so far, I removed two of the actions that would earn XP. Now the groaning just needs to be fleshed out some more. --LaosOman 19:44, 30 March 2009 (BST)

I actually think the Feeding Drag one was better.--Pesatyel 04:24, 2 April 2009 (BST)

Survivors Can Open Doors

Timestamp:	Mail2345 22:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	New Action
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	Currently, survivors are unable open doors. Sure, they can get though, but what if they want to open a revive clinic in a useless building since there are no near churches? What if a death cultist wants to open the doors for hundred of hungry zombies? I propose that survivors should be able to open doors at the cost of 1 AP. This change will add significant flexibility without unbalancing effects.

Discussion (Survivors Can Open Doors)

Clarification: do you mean in buildings with no barricades, or barricaded buildings? -CaptainVideo 02:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Dupe. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 03:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Since we're still at the plastic, impressionable stage where details have yet to be hammered out, I think we should wait for specifics to surface. Just saying this is a dupe is not unakin to saying "Who needs another zombie game? There are plenty of zombie games." Just a thought. -CaptainVideo 03:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

There are really no "details" TO be hammer out. The suggestion is pretty simple.--Pesatyel 05:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

What Pesatyel said. How does this need details hammering out? The suggestion is survivors opening doors. I have a dupe for it. Hammer out whatever details you like, I'll still remove it from voting with the same dupe. --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 07:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

When you scream 'Dupe' in suggestions could you please provide a link. It allows people to compare it to the dupe and potentially improve on it and make it more unique. Granted that might be harder with simple suggestions like this one but if your not going to be constructive I'll call BS till I see a link. --Kamikazie-Bunny 13:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk is cheap, call BS on it by taking it to voting. You put the effort of creating a suggestions page in and I may grace it with my presence and dupe it. I'm quite sure you know how to create a suggestion for voting. --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 13:57, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Didn't we go over this already? He doesn't want people to improve the suggestion, he just wants the suggestion to die (be it here or as a Dupe in voting). In general I'd say ignore him if he doesn't give a link, but in this case I do remember something like this at least being discussed so it's quite possible there's a dupe. Didn't find one when I looked for it, but I didn't look very hard. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 13:50, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

YOu REALLY don't think this would be unbalancing?--Pesatyel 05:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

This? --Janus ^talk 14:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You had to spoil my bunny baiting didn't you? :p --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 14:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I found that but only read the first sentence and thought it was only about zombies. Oh well. Also; holy shit, we had a lot of people voting back then. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 15:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry people, my mistake. I did think Open Doors From Inside was only for zeds. Let this suggestion die. --Mail2345 20:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Retrieval

Timestamp:	Blake Firedancer ^{T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T.} 09:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	Sub-skill of Bargain Hunting, Retrieval allows a survivor with 100% encumberance or more who has found a valuable item via. searching to 'store' the item in a temporary place until they have made enough room to carry it. Once an item is found, the button 'Retrieve Item' appears. Retrieving the item has a success rate of (100 - (10 * X))%, where X is the number of AP the user has spent since finding the item. Clicking the button costs 1 AP, regardless of if the player succeeds in retrieving the item. It is based on AP as dropping items doesn't cost AP, and as such dropping enough items to retrieve the found item is entirely acceptable, whilst stocking it for later whilst the player does other tasks is less likely to succeed. Leaving the building/area/part of the building would forfeit the item.

Discussion (Retrieval)

Is it not far more sensible to just drop something before you search? This just seems like a lot of coding for something of so little value. --Honestmistake 09:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As HM. It seems like a heck of a lot of coding for very little gain. Linkthewindow Talk 10:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

One of the seldom-cited rules of suggestion parameters is that we're not allowed to reject things because it would take too much coding for them to work. Only Kevan can make that decision. -CaptainVideo 02:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, however with that method, should you not find anything you're down a possibly useful item. If you search first and use Retrieval, you don't have to lose anything. --Blake Firedancer ^{T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T.} 10:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

If you've only got useful items in your inventory, why on earth are you searching? --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 10:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

To get more useful items. -CaptainVideo 02:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

And the logic behind that is....? To reitterate what Midianian said, if your at 100% with all useful items, why the hell would you be searching?--Pesatyel 04:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, encumbrance is there for a reason. 100% is a lot to hold. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 10:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really much of a purpose, if your looking for something in particular make sure you have room (even 98% enc leaves enough room to fit a 20% enc item). --Kamikazie-Bunny 20:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

NecroTech Training

Having taken your suggestions into account, "NecroTech Training" is now up for review at Suggestions (please check the modifications I've made before voting). The other two ideas I had - Facility Access and Memories of Employment - have been allowed to die, since people considered them too unbalanced. -CaptainVideo 06:04, 29 March 2009 (BST)

True Dual Nature

Timestamp:	--Vissarion Belinski 00:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Balance, roleplay, maybe for next Monroeville
Scope:	Everyione
Description:	I'm not a good writer in English, but I'll try to describe the idea. Maybe it's just my naive phantasy. But please say whad do you think, and how it may affect the game. It's developing suggestons page anyway You know what Dual Nature is about. It's roleplaying, which also makes the game more difficult for the rest of survivors, who do not follow the Dual Nature Idea. Survivors usually go straight to revive point after death. But Dual Nature, Roleplaying and Realism (if there is any=) vote for random revive, and true flesh eating zombies - you die, you rise, you bite your own ex-friends, making them your friends again. I'd like to share with you some thoughts how to make the game more interesting, funny and difficult, especially for survivors. And maybe use ideas for the next Monroeville, Borehamwood or Manchester (with some NT infrastucture), as they change the game very strong. Or maybe this can be used in Malton. So they are: 1. Zombies can't see survivor names. They can see only HPs, and they can't see if an attacked survivor is their friend/ group member. 2. Zombies can't see Building name. It's just Building/ Park/ Street. 3. No GPS, wiki, map and other navigation for zombies. And no suburb name. 4. Zombie, if there is no meat nearby, makes one random movement once in, say, 6 hours, for no AP cost. Numbers 2,3,4 makes it impossible to organize revive points. Only combat revive - survivor sees his friends and tries to revive them. And this will not harm zombies. 5. Make feeding groans louder. Or add some kind of "gather the horde" groans. To make zombies easier to find each other. There is one problem. It makes zombie life absolutely stupid, and I don't know if it'll be interesing being "somewhere in Malton". The general idea is to make revive difficult and random.

Discussion (True Dual Nature)

Problem is, the mechanics that prevent organizing revive points would also prevent organizing strike teams. Plus, you can always make the revive point "outside the building you were defending". The proposals are also un-implmentable. How do you prevent metagmaing? Location co-ordinates are (and pretty much need to be) coded into the game pages, so how do you block extension that allow players to know where they are?
Anyhow, forcing all zombies to play as ferals isn't "enforce dual nature" (as players could still choose not to attack survivors / barricades", its "make zombies stupid" and "prevent zombie players from co-operating". Yuck. Swiers 02:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

What do you think about making zeds just stalk pointlessly? Every few hours a zombie moves in a random direction if there is no feedeing groans and no fresh meet in current location. Or maybe move to nearest groaning. That should prevent waiting in the revive point --Vissarion Belinski 02:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that making survivors anonymous to zombies is interesting (maybe give the ability back when Memories of Life is purchased?), but I agree with Swiers, it's really not workable in UD. In a whole new city, maybe, and you pointed that out yourself. It might also be neat to connect one or more of these "stupidities" to Brain Rot-- like failing to recognize survivors, or losing the ability to read graffiti, something like that. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 02:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I kind alike the first idea about just seeing hit points (I'd suggest being able to see the full name if the person is a contact). I just think the author is a little flawed in his reasoning about "dual natures". It sounds, as I read it, like he is arguing the only way a "true" dual nature would be revived is if it was a combat revive. But I digress. How about a TOGGLE for some of the these? For example, you can toggle off and on your ability to see building names. Volunatarily make it "harder" on yourself.--Pesatyel 02:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The others may be interested in debating with you, but I am not. It is beneath me even to acknowledge the 'thinking' which lurks behind these kinds of suggestions. I'm only going to say this: Fuck you.

Fuck you on behalf of every new zombie player who has ever stood up with almost half their playing time gone because some arsehole got bored and went outside to masturbate with their guns.
Fuck you on behalf of every new zombie player who has had to spend two action points per step in probably the worst example of game unbalancing 'realism' ever conceived and which means that every day there are new zombies who are making just seventeen moves whilst new survivors make forty-eight.
Fuck you on behalf of every zombie player who ever went days, sometimes weeks, without attacking a survivor because the barricades have just a 12.5% chance of success.
Fuck you on behalf of every zombie player who earned their claw skills only to find that the barricades still only go down at a rate of one-in-four, and that only if they are lucky with the truly abominable RNG.
Fuck you on behalf of every zombie player who has taken on the barricades alone, broken them open and been unable to get in more than a few swipes at a survivor before being headshot, dumped and all their work undone by just a single survivor.
Fuck you on behalf of every zombie player who has discovered the metagame and learned that the only way to actually make a difference in this game as a zombie is to coordinate with other zombie players.
Fuck you on behalf of every zombie player who works hard to help other players by arranging hordes, group activities, massed attacks, mini-games and tours.
Fuck you on behalf of the ferals.
Fuck you on behalf of the strike teams.
Fuck you on behalf of the hordes.
Fuck you to everyone who ever suggests game ruining, zombie nerfing shit in the name of 'realism', 'believability or 'balance'.
Fuck you to every player who takes the easy way out and does not have a zombie character because they'd rather spend every IP hit they have searching for ammunition.
Fuck you to every player who treats zombies as though they are non-player characters, with no human being behind them trying to have fun.
Just fuck you.

TL;DR? Fuck you. --Papa Moloch 03:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to back that up with a Fuck you¹² (I don't agree with the RNG ones and am generally against meta-gaming). --Kamikazie-Bunny 13:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As Moloch said. Oh, and pass me some of whatever you smoked before writing this. --Johnny Bass 04:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

and i would like to add a "steaming cup of shut the fuck up" with your retarded suggestions. how long have been playing this game anyway?----Sexualharrison

13:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Zombies are not NPCs. If they were, maybe in another city, your stuff would already be implemented. Also Moloch is my hero. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 18:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As an unassociated bystander wandering through the area, I'm going to say this has veered from the path of productivity, and perhaps contains excessive use of bold. Just throwing that in there. Carry on. -CaptainVideo 02:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

It was entirely needed. --Johnny Bass 15:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The suggestion sucks, but the person making it is clearly new. This aggression will not stand, dude. --Paddy Dignam^{IS DEAD} 16:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

That carpet really tied the room together, man. --Johnny Bass 16:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, Johnny. At least it's an ethos! --Paddy Dignam^{IS DEAD} 16:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

God damn you Paddy! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about? --Johnny Bass 16:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Shut the fuck up, Johnny. (The name even rhymes!) --Paddy Dignam^{IS DEAD} 17:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Paddy, you're out of your element! Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here! --Johnny Bass 17:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I have a more succinct answer to this than even Papa Moloch: No. --Private Mark 07:16, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Sexy Zombies

Timestamp:	Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 21:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Balance improvement
Scope:	everyone.
Description:	To improve the feel of a zombie apocalypse, and to bring lasting balance to the game, players should be encouraged to play as zombies. In this pursuit, the following changes should be implemented: All players get a free new skill called Brain Virus, and a new button labeled Succumb to Virus (or something). When players push the new button they die and get a form of temporary brain rot that lasts 3 months (they get a warning just like with regular brain rot). The justification here could be that a mutated/previously unknown NecroTech brain virus has now permeated all of Malton. At any time anyone can succumb to the virus, which attacks the brain and effectively works like brain rot. After 3 months the virus becomes dormant and the player can be revived. Whatever, feel free to write a better explanation. Players who choose to take this temporary form of brain rot and play as zombies/survivors with brain rot for 3 months will be rewarded with a special badge/symbol in their profile. Successive tours of duty using Brain Virus will yeild something like badge "x 2", badge "x 3" etc. The use of Brain virus should be promoted on the wiki and on the log in page. The front page will include a prominent link to an article promoting the use of Brain Virus, encouraging players to try out the zombie lifestyle for a while and talking-up the virtues of game balance and the earning of shinny badges. The badges should be described in a way that players will covet them and lay claim to bragging rights on the number of badges they earned. Zombie players can also use Brain Virus, whether or not they have brain rot.

Discussion (Sexy Zombies)

I'm really disappointed, this isn't about sexy zombies at all. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 21:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I see huge zerging flaws, but yes, Sexy zombies for all! --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 21:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

With respect, Midianian, the idea is to make being a zombie sexy. And I just had another thought ~

To further incentivize zombie play, people who succumb to Brain Virus at least once per year would benefit from some viral intelligence boosting so that:

Suvivors who had succumbed would gain dual-wielding, a flavor boost. In their profile they would add the line "dual weapons". Example: "Wearing: dual weapons, tinted glasses, a trenchcoat", and when they attack, others players would see "Trenchie67 expertly shot zombzorz34 with a pistol.. and again.. and again." etc.
Zombies who had succumbed would gain terrifying intelligence, a flavor boost. Their profile would read "Wearing: A terrifying expression, tattered jeans, blood-soaked and tattered brown shoes". The line "cunningly" would be added to their attacks, and when they used groan, the descriptive word "menacing" would be added. Example: "You hear a menacing loud groan from 2 blocks east, 1 block south." etc.
Every year an update would occur so that in order for players to maintain the benefits of the brain virus, (dual-wielding and terrifying intelligence) they would need to have succumbed to the virus at least once per year that the virus has been active.
The skill in player profiles would read either: Brain Virus (active) or Brain Virus (dormant) depending on it's current status. --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 22:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

This isn't too good of an idea, and shame on you for making me think the Mistress has returned!--Suicidal Angel, Help needed? 00:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Gragh SA, go back to Zombie Strippers! D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 00:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't like this. It's intimidatingly complicated. Can you streamline it to something that makes sense after a one-sentence explanation? Not that details are bad, but the basic idea itself is too confusing. -CaptainVideo 03:06, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay here it is in a streamlined sentence. "In order to encourage players to become zombies, people can voluntarily take a temporary form of brain rot and receive a fucking awesome but totally inconsequential upgrade to their character." --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 06:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Musket

Timestamp:	--Johnny Bass 19:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Item
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	Item Type: Weapon Item Location: A musket would be only found in skeleton and stuffed animal museums (to go with the theme of hunting that both seem to present) Encumberance: 12% Find Rate: <5% Accuracy: 10% without firearms training, 35% with Ammunition: None. Musket would be 1 use only item discarded after each use Damage: 20% Chance of the musket not firing due to age and being discarded, 60% chance of 5 damage (4 with flak), 20% of 10 damage (8 with flak). Rationale: Adding an element of a potentially unreliable, 1 and done weapon that probably wouldn't be very useful unless the player is at a lower level and adding something more amusing for occasional use. Personally, I doubt I got the percentages looking decent for this and I'm very open to changing them around a bit.

Discussion (Musket)

"Adding an element of a potentially unreliable, 1 and done weapon that probably wouldn't be very useful unless the player is at a lower level and adding something more amusing for occasional use."

Surely thats a flare gun? --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 19:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Admittedly somewhat yes, only minus the ability to shoot it into the air. --Johnny Bass 20:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

As well as substantially better accuracy. I like it. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 21:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been playing a fair bit of Empire Total War lately and I agree that muskets would be pretty awesome to see in game.

Since it can't be found in malls (and hence affect other weapon's search rates,) at a first glance, this seems fine. Linkthewindow Talk 20:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It should cost more AP to fire. A modern gun is NOT that hard to figure out how to operate, but a musket? First of all, it depends on what KIND of musket we are talking about, but I suppose that can be "generalized". Sharpshooters during the Civil War could fire their muskets as fast as 3 times per MINUTE. That should give a rough indication of how long it takes to use. Of course, since this is a one shot, reloading can be ignored. But there is a certain amount of "prep" needed just to fire, I'd imagine. The idea is somewhat novel and, IMO, has potential, but this is just an inferior flare gun (3 points less AND the chance of a misfire).--Pesatyel 02:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

IIRC, Kevan stated that AP used is for an action rather than a unit of time. The idea is actually supposed to be a little less useful than a flare gun and really just for color rather than usefulness. Either way, I forgot to check for dupes anyways. --Johnny Bass 03:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

What's your point? I was commenting on the complexity of the action. Granted it doesn't actually work to well if you consider surgery, but that's beside the point. Why would you wnat to make a "flavor item less useful then a flaregun" when people rarely use flareguns themselves?--Pesatyel 04:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The basic idea behind this has been rejected twice: Suggestion:20090303_Museum_Enhancements and Suggestion:20070619 Antique Weapons. Not that I don't personally love it. -CaptainVideo 03:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I was really hungover and bored at work when writing this, so I didn't bother checking for dupes/rejects. Oh well, back to nothingness for this one. --Johnny Bass 03:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

A gun JB? For shame.... -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 04:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Meh, boredom + hangover. That and I like more useless toys. --Johnny Bass 04:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

We need a weapon that embodies those goals. Possibly a yo-yo. -CaptainVideo 02:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

We already have, what, a dozen of those?--Pesatyel 04:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Limited Give

Timestamp:	Kamikazie-Bunny 14:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Survivor Trading
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	'Give' allows players to give items to another survivor. It consists of a box similar to the attack box and consists of a 'Give' button, drop down list of survivors and a drop down list of items. The cost to give an item is 1AP. When a survivor is given an item they receive the message "Player X gave you an item." In order to prevent zerg abuse the give item function is limited: Survivors are only capable of giving Infinite-use items excluding pistols and shotguns! The only consumable items available to give are: Beer Wine Books (inc. poetry) Decorative Items These items are available to give primarily for role-play purposes. If a player attempts to give an item to someone who is over 100% Enc. they receive the message "Player X is carrying too much already." This allows for survivors to give items to fellow survivors but helps to reduce zerg abuse because they cannot be used as "search farms" effectively.

Discussion (LimitedGive)

-1 Morality point if you read the name and went 'gah' without reading the content--Kamikazie-Bunny 14:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

+1 Troll point for the generic and inaccurate name, +1 Self-Righteousness point for pre-emptive moralization. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 15:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I qualify for the troll point or inaccurate name, generic yes... But I'll gladly take the SRppem... oh +1 point for knowing the point game. --Kamikazie-Bunny 17:42, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

This is quite a limited "Give" suggestion. It's inaccurate the same way as saying "9/11 was orchestrated by a group of simians". It's technically true (humans are simians), but the majority are going to interpret it incorrectly. Using such an inaccurate and generic name is just inviting people to go "Gah" when they see the name and quite possibly ignore the actual content (hence the Troll). Actually, it's not until the fourth paragraph where you explain that no, it's not the regular completely retarded "Give" suggestion. So yeah, call it "Limited Give" or something and people might pay attention to it. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 22:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, name changed. --Kamikazie-Bunny 14:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It'd be nice to see people be able to give each other the flavor items and whatnot, but I doubt it will happen. Kevan did say in the past that he was working on some kind of workable way of doing this and explains why it isn't in the game here. --Johnny Bass 14:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Scientists level quite effectively from reading. This is a zergers slow burning dream. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 04:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why it would be an issue, 10AP a day for zergs is not exactly going to break the game and I'm pretty sure the 'professional' zergers out there have a more effective strategy such as FAKPunching in hospitals, good point though but I just don't see a significant risk of Zerg abuse. --Kamikazie-Bunny 14:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I attempted something similar to this a long time ago:

http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Suggestions/21st-Aug-2006

That was as good as I could get it. I don't fancy your chances, but have a look at that and see if it gives you any thought's. The Mad Axeman 14:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I think our suggestions are opposite ends of the spectrum, Mine gives useless items, yours does not. The biggest difference is mine drastically reduces the zergabusility by preventing consumables being transferred. Having read it though an idea for transferring consumables has come to mind... you can only give items to a player if they do not have one in their inventory... But I'll see how this one goes and might expanded it to include that pending on feed back or voting results (people give a lot more feedback there). --Kamikazie-Bunny 14:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the "jerk" factor here is wildly underestimated. You could just shove thirty useless items into some guy's hands just to be obnoxious. Not that that would necessarily be a bad thing - assuming it costs AP to give, but not drop. It could be fun, in a petulant sort of way. -CaptainVideo 03:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think this is probably the biggest problem. There WILL be assholes who will do that, whether it costs AP or not.--Pesatyel 04:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

So I suppose that, should this be implemented, a "accept/deny gift" option is in order? --Private Mark 07:56, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, but then no "giving" would REALLY get done because of the 10 minute game window.--Pesatyel 10:12, 29 March 2009 (BST)

The jerk factor is mostly negated by the 0AP to drop function, the only other concern would be IP limits from dropping which is rarely an issue for most players. Jerk loaders would spend 50AP to offload their contents (assuming their entire inventory consisted of books and beer) on to someone else but cost 0AP to drop. An obvious solution (which I missed) would be to prevent givving of items to someone over 100%Enc, which I will add now. --Kamikazie-Bunny 19:21, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Change to Free Running

Timestamp:	ScaredPlayer 23:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Game mechanics change
Scope:	Users with Free Running
Description:	Recently I discovered what seems to be a major flaw in the free-running skill. As you know, it is impossible to get stuck inside a building, not matter what the barricade level is - you are always able to move to an adjacent square by clicking on it. However, with the recent change to the way free running works - that you cannot free run into a ruined building - free running has become a potential drawback to people wishing to move about in suburbs with ruined buildings. Let me give an example. You are standing inside a police station that has been caded to VSB. The building directly to the west is ruined. If you do not have free running, it will take two AP to safely move into that building; one to move to that square, and one to enter the building. However, if you have free running, you cannot simply click on the that square as you would normally do, as you risk the chance of falling and injuring yourself. So, to safely enter that building, you must first leave the building you are currently in, click the adjacent square, and then enter the building. This costs 3 AP in total. This makes absolutely no sense - *that a player with free running must spend more* AP to safely move from the inside a non-ruined building to the inside a ruined building than a player without free running is completely beyond me. Also worth noting is that if you have free running and you are trying to move from a HB or abov building to a ruined one, you cannot** take the safe way (that costs more AP) - you can only click on the ruined building, and hope that you don't fall and break your leg. For survivors without free running, they can do the same thing without any chance of injury. In light of this, perhaps giving players a choice between utilising free running and not utilising it would be wise, so that players with free running aren't forced to take unfair risks as compared to players that don't have the skill. My suggestion to fix this would be to remove the chance of "falling and injuring" yourself when you click on a ruined building. Is this a bad thing? I think not. What could of sensible survivor would try to jump from a building into a wrecked one? It makes absolutely no sense. Of course, not being able to free run into a ruined building should be kept; that makes absolute sense. But to allow people to fall and injure themselves is completely contrary to what free running denotes - that is, the ability to move safely and without impediment between buildings.

Discussion (Change to Free Running)

The chance of "falling and injuring" yourself is to add a bonus to ruins for zombies. I usually just take the risk anyway - 5HP isn't much at all.

(By the way, be sure to add your suggestions to the top.) Linkthewindow Talk 05:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not just provide an option to go outside the building? In fact, why not do that for ALL buildings when you have freerunning? --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Free Running should already cost more as it is. Free Running is overpowered. Up until ruin was added, there were survivors that NEVER even SAW zombies. They just acquired free running (via healing, etc.) and never bothered to go outside. The point of the recent changes was to make it less overpowered.--Pesatyel 08:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Why are you bring up argument of free-running being overpowered here? The recent balance makes perfect sense - how can you run into a ruined building? You can't! What's a bit messed up IMHO is that a player without free running can safely enter a ruined building using LESS AP than someone who has free running. If you have free running, you either a) take the risk of losing 5 hp or b) spend an extra AP to go into the building. My suggestion has nothing to do with allowing people to free run into ruined buildings - that would be retarded. I'm only advocating allowing people to walk instead of free run (to not risk falling and hurting yourself) or, even better, remove the chance of hurting yourself when you free run into a ruined building. Why not simply display a message like "The building is ruined. You cannot free run into it.", and put you outside that building. --ScaredPlayer 23:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

First thing you should do: use paragraphs. You'll get more feedback that way. I'll comment more when I can be bothered to read the whole thing :P. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The 5 Hp loss that comes with injury doesn't always occur and isn't actually all that much. As far as realism goes, a sensible survivor wouldn't try free running into a ruined building, but we have the option of doing what we can obviously see as being a bad decision just as we do in real life. --Johnny Bass 14:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually you're incorrect - if you're a survivor with free running, you cannot choose the safe way, unless you are willing to give up an extra AP. You are forced to make a bad and dangerous choice (risking injury), or lose an AP that a person without free running would not lose. Either way, you lose. --ScaredPlayer 23:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It's a classic trade-off: Take the risk of injury but move faster, or move slowly and carefully. It's fine the way it is. The only issue I could see where this would be unfair is in an HB or higher building surrounded completely by ruins - you have no choice but to take the injury chance. Still, this scenario is unlikely. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 16:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok what you said is true, that Free-running is kind of overpowered, but shouldn't people with free running have the choice to walk outside of a building just like someone without free running, instead of automatically trying (and failing) to jump into from the second story, or whatever? You shouldn't have to click "exit building" and then click the next block just to get outside the building safely... someone without free running can do that in 1 step whereas you have to take two steps. Caution shouldn't cost AP. --ScaredPlayer 18:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it should. You can run across a minefield with a mine detector, or you can walk across it with a mine detector. Which one is going to be safer? --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 18:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

What does your example have to do with anything? With survivors without free-running, caution comes at no extra cost. Does it make sense that acquiring an ability that makes you more agile NECESSITATES uncessary risk? Shouldn't people have a choice of walking from one building to the next instead of automatically trying to jump the gap, putting yourself in danger in the process?--ScaredPlayer 18:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

You do have a choice though, you can step outside of the building that you are in provided it's VSB or lower. That's one of the trade offs that you have to accept when you barricade every building in a suburb up to EHB. --Johnny Bass 18:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you do have a choice to do that, but it costs more AP (did you read my suggestion at all?). A survivor wouldn't even have to exit the building, they could just click the next block, saving them an AP. But if you have free running, to avoid the chance of falling and hurting yourself you have to first exit the building, click the next square, then enter that building; this costs 1 AP more than it would cost a survivor without free running to do. This is my whole point - moving from buildings into ruined buildings is safer and cheaper (in terms of AP cost) for someone without free-running. Plus, if the building you're in is VSB or higher, you can't take the "safe way" - you have to risk it, while a survivor without free running in the same situation suffers no such risk. --ScaredPlayer 22:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think I wrote a "free running toggle" suggestion a while ago. It would have solved this issue, but was seen as to much of a "free lunch". I think if using free-running cost 2 AP per move (explainable as the city getting harder to move around due to decay) it would balance rather nicely, though. And yeah, I also don't see why falling damage is needed; if you can move without free-running, you always SHOULD do so when appropriate (IE, moving to ruins blocks). If ruins should cause damage, it should be a random chance of doing so when you enter them, to both zombies and survivors. Swiers 19:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that you can't die from the damage caused by free running into a ruin. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 22:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Wait, really? You can't slip and crack your skull open? Come to think of it, I've never tested this... --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 00:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

What about making survivors fall when they free run out of the ruin building? There will be no way to use ruins as entry points. --Vissarion Belinski 02:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Better thing to do, I think, would be to just allow the person to leave, via the "leave" button OR attempt to free run with a chance of falling and getting injured.--Pesatyel 02:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It's interesting. Make a freerun toggle, and make skill having a chance to be used unsuccesfully, and an increased chance of failure if freerunning in/out ruins. --Vissarion Belinski 02:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Crowbar training

Timestamp:	Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	From months of continuing to lever away sections of barricades, survivors are becoming more skilled in finding the fastest way to pry away the boards. This would be a new training, either as a basic civilian, or off of construction, which would give something like a +10% (Or something like that, feel free to discuss) boost to using a crowbar on barricades. This would primarily help to deal with over-barricading, and zombie pinatas. I don't think that there's much window for alt abuse, and this would mainly just edge the statistics slightly, without changing the game fully. (How many people would buy this skill early on?)

Discussion (Crowbar Training)

Personally, I think crowbars could use a +5% base to-hit. As it sits right now, crowbars are more useful than fire axes only twice a year-- when there are supply crates dropping (and even then, it's not about being better at getting the crate, it's about breakage of items inside). Once you have Axe Training, there's really no reason to ever touch a crowbar again, and I think that's a shame. Anyway, I don't really like this idea, first because I think crowbars should get a boost without a skill, and second because I think saying "crowbar training" sounds silly. But I support the general idea. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 07:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Crowbars are lighter than axes but have the same chances to hit barricades. If you don't need a melee weapon, a crowbar is better than an axe. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 08:03, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

True, but 2% is really insiginificant when the crowbar's "purpose" is debarricading while the axe's "purpose" is to be the best for melee combat. Having the axe able to do both purpose overpowers the axe as well as makes the one more useless melee weapon.--Pesatyel 01:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Instead of increasing the base to-hit for a crowbar, what about a skill that gives a +5% or +10% bonus... but ONLY for the purpose of removing barricades? --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 08:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

That's kind of what I meant. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 17:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm in favour of either, +5% to the base stat is easier to implement but a +10% to barricades only is more plausible and makes sense when you consider what they are designed for. --Kamikazie-Bunny 20:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, though perhaps we should name the skill: "Freeman Training". :P --Private Mark 23:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, I was late for work, and couldn't think of a good name. Yours is better. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with a simple debarricading bonus.--Pesatyel 01:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Which do you guys think is more appropriate, 5% or 10%? --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

No more than 5%, because that 25% chance is equal to maxed zombie claws without tangling grasp. If you make it more than that, then survivors will have a better chance to break into a building by carrying a crowbar than a zombie ripping with its claws. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 07:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Tangling grasp doesn't affect buildings, does it? --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:27, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Not as far as I know. What I meant was that a zombie who has everything but tangling grasp hits at 50%, half of which (on barricades) is 25%, and no crowbar boost should go above that. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 09:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Tearing down a barricade with a crowbar should be easier than using claws... its a tool designed pretty much for that specific task. If implemented it would be a popular move with the death cultists but it does make sense.--Honestmistake 09:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

If your increasing it's base stat 5% but if it's an exclusive boost to de-cading then 10%... As for a name how about Burglary / Breaking and entering... thats what it's used for. --Kamikazie-Bunny 13:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

So, this would be a civilian skill that provides +10% to using crowbars on barricades. The skill could be called something like burglary of crowbar proficiency, but I'd rather leave that minor aspect to Kevan. Anything else I need to deal with, or should I post this to suggestions? --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 16:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding to the crowbar's base accuracy. As a weapon it's pretty useless but as it is now, like people have said, the fire axe skills make it just as good. No point carrying two weapons when you can carry two that do the same job? Adding to the base accuracy would give people a reason to keep their crowbar.--ScaredPlayer 18:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest this properly. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 18:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's make some difference between classes

I know it's too complex, but I think it is interesting. I'd like to develop skill and make classes differ from each other. The following skill suggestion is just a try. And excuse me for my bad English.

Timestamp:	--Vissarion Belinski 00:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Skills
Scope:	All players
Description:	UD has 4 starting classes. There are three survivor classes (Civilian, Military, Scientist) and Zombie class, which you recieve after death. Starting as a Zombie and getting revived makes you Civilian. So there are three classes. Civilian<->Zed; Military<->Zed and Scientist<->. And VERY slight difference between them. So slight, that we feel it only two starting months (if we really feel). That slight difference makes me say that there is only one class for 30000 active players. We need some difference! Every class should have one (or few maybe) unique skill, and if you take Zombie unique skill, you can't take survivor unique skill. That would make the game much more interesting. Let's discuss and develop it. Military Skill or skills may be: Improved Headshot, making zombies spend 10, not 5 AP to stand up. *Professional [firearm]* training, which adds further +10% to hit chance. That's more balanced, as it can be used by PKers and Z-spies, not only by Hunters. Science NecroTech put smart english word here. You need to spend just 5 AP to revive zombie and just 10 to manufacture syringe. Civilian Treasure Hunting, adds +10% bonus to find something when searching any building. Zombie And to balance all that survivor skills let's make zombies more powerfull with special zombie skill. I don't know how to call it, but I know how it should work, not making zeds too powerfull. When zombie attacks a survivor and if the survivor HP drop to 25 or lower (wounded), zombie starts to feel hunger and rage, making all attacks stronger. That's just like feedeng drag, but adding +1 bite attack. Getting skills** To take special survivor skill you must have all other survivor skills of your class. All Science skills -> NT something skill etc. Zombies must complete Vigour Mortis tree.

Discussion (Let's make difference between classes)

It's very clear to me you have no understanding about balance in this game at all. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 00:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Second. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 00:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

ya i agree with iscariot. --User:Ricci Bobby 16:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

And do you think that all balance is about 50 APs? I really don't know about the numbers, chances, rates and calculations in UD. Or do you say that whole idea is shit? --Vissarion Belinski 01:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

What these ideas do is cripple the zombie side by overpowering survivors. Survivors are already winning the AP race due to their superior ability to bank AP and the soak of barricades. The best rule of thumb in buffing everything is to use the 'Times by a million' rule. Compare the damage that your suggestion could do with the current status quo and the overkill of this should be startlingly apparent. Just a guess, but I'm thinking you've never played a pure zombie. Go create one and try and level it on your own and see how crippling headshot is in its current form and then try and imagine how nasty it would be to just implement your headshot section. In short, yes, the whole thing is shit. However, start to look through the numbers and try to see why we're saying this rather than get offended and disappear. --

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 01:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Might I suggest you move this suggestion to the Humorous section? No one's going to take this seriously. It's severely unbalancing. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 01:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Might I suggest you be quiet? The notion of the rules against humour in the suggestions system do not, have not, and will never apply to Talk:Suggestions. --

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 01:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggest the move because it is genuinely funny (to a vet, at least... the ignorance is astounding) and because my trollsense is tingling. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 01:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

"In short, yes, the whole thing is shit." And what about the whole idea of making them different? Also I played (and play) pure zombie, and I really do not think headshot so crippling as you say. Maybe others have different opninion.--Vissarion Belinski 01:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Why should they be different? I like the fact that there are no practical differences between the classes after reaching a certain level. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 07:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I concur. What Midinian says also factorises in realism. After months in a zombie apocalypse, all survivors would be acting the same way. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't reckon that would be true, people react differently to the same situation, the length of time people have been in Malton will yield some variance even if the overall mentality is the same (survive)... Take a look at the game at the moment, we have long term players Killing survivors, zombies and mechanical equipment, people obsessed with certain 'strongholds' and people touring the city, running to and running from the fight... does that sound like they're all acting the same? Back to the suggestion though, you (Midianian) make like every character being the same when they've maxed out and I can see the appeal, but personally I would like to see at least a little variance nothing game breaking but something which allows people to play to their strengths rather than being another Mr Generic. --Kamikazie-Bunny 20:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say I want everyone to be the same. I want everyone to be capable of doing the same things. Your inventory and how you use it is what makes you different from anyone else. Class specific skills are a bad way of differentiating anyway, since they force you to make a choice in the beginning of the game when you don't yet know what's useful. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 09:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Then why bother having "classes" at all? Why not just have "Survivors" and "Zombies". Survivors can start with whatever skill they want and, in their profiles, can put whatever the hell they want for "class"?--Pesatyel 01:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Because class also effects what you start with, and the ability to pick ANY skill would be far too dangerous for multi-abuse. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

With certain limitations of course. And starting equipment is minimal when one can easily search.--Pesatyel 02:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I've got to disagree about starting equipment. Newbies starting survivor characters need to be performing some survivor actions the VERY FIRST MOMENT they start playing the game, lest they get "over it" and leave. Thus, we have characters start with guns'n'ammo, axe, DNA extractor, etc. Personally, when I first tried this game a couple years ago, I left after I ran out of ammo because I didn't know how to search for more pistol clips. It wasn't until I got bored and read the wiki about two years later that I found out I could search for ammo in PD's. I might be running the less bright side of the newbie gamut, but given new players' lack of commitment when trying any new game, I believe that having to spend even a few minutes searching for equipment would be too taxing on newbies' attention spans. --Idly Hummingbird 08:34, 29 March 2009 (BST)

So all "survivors" start with a knife, a FAK and a GPS or something.--Pesatyel 10:11, 29 March 2009 (BST)

Shotgun Shells Stacking

Timestamp:	=ScaredPlayer 23:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Improvement
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	I'm pretty new to UD, and I looked in the frequently suggested area for something that might be similar to this, and I didn't really find anything. As we all know, pistol ammo comes in the form of a clip - a cartridge that holds six bullets. Shotgun ammunition comes in the form of shells, single shots that are found individually. I think that changing the interface to stack shotgun shells would be a great improvement to UD. My reasoning for this is that if you are carrying a lot of shotgun shells, your inventory area will be filled up with buttons that say "shotgun shell". I propose, to fix this problem of filling up that space with repeat names for the same item, it be changed to "Shotgun shells (x)", where x is the number of shells currently in your inventory. Reloading would be the same - clicking on the button would reduce x by 1, and fill up your next empty shotgun, just as it is now. I can anticipate some arguments against this, such as "If this is implemented, how will you drop individual shotgun shells?" As it is now, you must drop items one at a time from the dropdown menu. If this change were implemented, the same thing would still apply; you would see simply "Drop: Shotgun shell". When you do that, the number of shells is decreased by one at no AP cost, exactly the same as it is now. As well, some people might find this to be "useless", as I can see from other suggestions that have been deemed "useless" as well (which is many). I would argue that this isn't in fact useless - it solves the problem of having an inventory full of white boxes labelled "shotgun shells", and rather consolidates all of those annoying buttons into one button; thus simplifying the task of looking through your potentially huge inventory for that next shotgun shell.

Discussion (Shotgun Shells Stacking)

This is a good idea but there is already something close to that but you would have to download mozilla firefox and one of the add-ons for UD has that User:Close to death 4:43pm 24 March 2009 (EPT)

http://www.adzone.org/UDTool/ --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 13:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

not everyone can use Firefox or add-ons so as an improvement to the basic interface this would certainly merit a keep from me, especially if it were to includes FAKs and Syringes too. --Honestmistake 14:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It'd be nice if at least ammo and items that don't get a target drop down box got stacked. I'd imagine that those would be the easiest to set up. I'd love to see a udtool type inventory organization be readily available to everyone that didn't want the add ons or firefox. --Johnny Bass 14:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, something like this has been suggested at least as early as 2005 (and fairly regularly after that). If Kevan was going to implement it, it would've been implemented already. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 15:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah whoops. Spam it is then... --Johnny Bass 15:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not Spam. Spam is for LaZoRs, chainsaw nunchucks and other ridiculous ideas, this actually a sensible suggestion, the fact that it's been suggested before would class it as a DUPE. Having said that if it went to voting I'd vote keep, I want it... --Kamikazie-Bunny 20:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

If done, there should also be FAK stacking, Needle stacking, clip staking, newspaper stacking, gps stacking, DNA scanner... basically stacking for anything that doesn't have an ammo capacity, frequency setting, or other character that makes it potentially different from similar items. Which seems easy enough, given that so many extensions / scripts do this for yah. The extra server work would likely be offset by the work the server does NOT do; currently each FAK, needle, and weapon has / is a potentially HUGE form with a long drop list of who to use it on. Condensing FAKS and Needles (and scanners) would reduce the numbers of forms a fair bit, and thus the amount of HTML the server needs to send out. Swiers 19:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah thanks for bringing that up - the drop down list of things to drop is HUGE and ANNOYING to look through. Having just one of each item in that list would make things soooo much easier and neater for the rest of us. --ScaredPlayer 23:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't care if this is a dupe, I'd vote keep.--Idly Hummingbird 08:36, 29 March 2009 (BST)

Assault Rifle

I am aware this is not to be suggested, however please review fairly

Timestamp:	Deadmrzombie 22 Mar 09, 1345 hours
Type:	Weapon, Skill
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	I will open this with the stated knowledge of two facts, I am aware that these should not be suggested. I am an infantry combat veteran, and hope I can provided a new thought process on the weapon. Locating a rifle and ammunition Updated 22 Mar 09, 2242 hours Originally I attempted to offer the concept below, however Im updating the concept to include that rifles would be available at all normal weapon locations with a lower chance of finding them than other fire arms. since as stated it would be very difficult to locate one and finding rifle magazines would frustrate players. Original Concept 22 Mar 09, 1345 Hours Rifles would only be available from an Armorie. Ammunition would be found in all normal ammo providing locations, a rifle magazine would hold 18 rounds at 6% encumbrance. Statistics Updated --dead mr zombie 04:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC) Damage: 6 points (5 against Flak Jacket) Encumbrance: 6% This update to damage is to help prevent the view that this is a inferior pistol. However still the weapon would be less accurate. See Skills. Original Concept 22 Mar 09, 1245 Hours Damage: 5 points (4 against Flak Jacket) Skills Starting Skill: 5% accuracy Basic Rifle Training: 25% accuracy Advanced Rifle Training: 50% accuracy Jamming and Reloading Updated --dead mr zombie 04:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC) Jamming rate: 10% or 15% Fix Jam: 2AP and loss of one bullet. Reload: 1AP Im making this update with regards to the statements made regarding the amount of AP use and what it reflects in game. In the Concept Outline below, my original concept for jamming and reloading is summarized. Original Concept 22 Mar 09, 1245 Hours Jamming rate: 10% or 15% Fix Jam: 5AP and loss of one bullet. Reload: 2AP or 3AP Concept Outline The idea is that the assualt rifle would be very hard to locate and more difficult to use. The skill set would be seperate from the other weapons, making it more taxing to learn. Jamming is a balancing measure for the larger surplus of ammo available per reload, as well as a heavier reload tax. In reality rifles jam, if in Urban Dead one AP represents a single trigger squeeze, then fixing a jam should require 5 (SLAP the magazine, PULL the charging handle, OBSERVE ejecting round, RELEASE charging handle, TAP feed assist) and the loss of one round of ammunition. Reloading the Weapon would require 2AP or 3AP to balance the larger ammo surplus and that it would be more complicated to reload a Rifle. The damage of the weapon would be the same as a pistol for balance and "realism". I specifically offered the weapon should be less accurate, this again is for balance and "realism". A rifle is more difficult to hit a target with then a pistol or shotgun, which are more point low and shoot then aim and shoot. Rifles also have an series of thoughts that should be put into every squeeze of the trigger (realistically: steady firing postition, trigger squeeze, maintain site picture, and breathing control) in a combat situation these fundamentals are often passed over making the shooter less accurate than on the firing range. In summary the rifle would not be as effective as the currently available firearms (save longer time between reloads), generally this suggestion is offered to allow a realistic and balanced concept of a rifle to be implemented. I understand that the overall concept of the External Military's removal of "heavy weapons" (note assualt rifles are "small arms") realistically I feel that such a mission would be very difficult to achieve. Having been in a combat unit in Iraq that attempted to disarm a city I speak from experience when I say the process takes years to achieve and is impossible to date. A military unit on mission to achieve this while in the midst of a zombie outbreak is terribly unlikely in any reasonable period of time. I eagerly await your honest discussion. Thank you for your time, consideration, and dedication to the improvement of the truly awesome game.

Discussion (Assault Rifle)

This seems a bit pointless. Its less accurate than a pistol and also less reliable, add to that its weight and the fact that it does the same damage and having a larger clip really doesn't seem much of a saving grace. Basically you gotta ask... why would anyone want one?--Honestmistake 18:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I feel the power of grim compel me ARRGHHH! COUP!!!!! (Ahem) It dilutes ammo search rates. If Im a new survivor searching for ammo at a pd and i keep on finding assault rifle ammo (Which is almost pointless, especially far away from forts) instead of shotgun and pistol ammo, I'm going to get bored. Or spend all my times hanging out in forts. (Shudders and gains control of left hand) Nurse! --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 18:31, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the attempt to add flavor to the game and perhaps a new weapon would do that, however I must agree with Rosslessness on the ammo dilution. I've never even seen a fort with my character, why should I have to waste my AP finding and dumping ammo I'll never use. Also, AP just represents actions, not the time it takes to do those actions. So it takes 1AP to reload a weapon, run up the side of a building, or say "Chuck Norris", though in reality that should require infinite AP. (sorry) --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 22:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

A large percentage of the melee weapons are pointless, the idea is to add another weapon to the game. The magazine weight is equal to the same number of pistol clips, the suggestion allows for a new medium to engage your targets without making an over-powered weapon like most previous suggestions. I did, when posting the concept attempt to "nerf" the weapon to allow for a more open response. And in its defense, it would surely be more useful than a crucifix or fencing foil.--Deadmrzombie 22 Mar 09, 2251 hours (UTC)

I'll vote YES. We're tired of all that shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol... Malton's big city with two military forts. It just need to be properly balanced. And need to be explained. For example, military helicopters have dropped containers with rifles to forts bla-bla. --Vissarion Belinski 22:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

You mean shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol, shotgun, pistol FLARE GUN surely? --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 22:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think people use it as a weapon too often. You need tons of them to kill someone. Another real weapon will add something new and fresh to the game anyway. --Vissarion Belinski 00:12, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, realism, in a game with zombies.... --

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. <== DDR Approved Editor 00:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your support, I'm hoping the discussion would offer suggestions on how to implement the item fairly into Urban Dead.--Deadmrzombie 22 Mar 09, 2251 hours (UTC)

SUGGESTION: Don't. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

"I am aware this is not to be suggested, however please review fairly" - Erm, why? You obviously know that the community's tired of new gun suggestions and still you thought to bring it, spam up this page and waste all our time. Why then would we treat you with anything less than the same contempt you've treated us with? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 00:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't be so hard. They continue to suggest and doesn't it means they want it? Is it a game for players or conservatives (maybe that's not the right word =)? And maybe I know nothing about balance, but that Assault Rifle seems pretty balanced =) It will just add something new to UD. --Vissarion Belinski 01:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Evidently you don't know Iscariot. Anyway, UD isn't a game we should change for change's sake - it should be balanced, bring something new to the game, etc. There's a reason there have only been pistols and shotguns so far - the two-gun system works, and more stuff means dilution (mentioned above) and more junk in the system. We're not fans of spam 'round here. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 01:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I really don't understand why you all reject third weapon. Properly balanced it won't do any harm. Just another weapon. Is that so bad? --Vissarion Belinski 02:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not really even about balance - the game's fine as it is, no need to add in a third weapon that could be (or probably is) unbalanced. We don't really need "just another weapon." --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 02:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I offer, there are "pointless" items in Urban Dead, why carry a GPS when we have the wiki? Why use the radio when we have external communication? Why have stats for a fencing foil? Why go to the mall and pick out clothing for our characters? If you embrace none of the unsubstantial elements of a game then why even have games? Games are created to allow our imaginations to engage in a fantastical environment. --Deadmrzombie 22 Mar 09, 2251 hours (UTC)

Not everyone uses the Wiki or metagaming, for both GPS and radios. Some people like to RP with foils. Some people like to choose clothing. They're there because they're fun and they don't really substantially affect game mechanics. You can RP UD as much as you want, or play it as only a game with mechanics. Where are you going with this? --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 03:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

My point is that adding a weapon to the game like UD is not a far-fetched though process, hence the game contains many RP elements. Adding a rifle is something commonly requested, I'm offering a concept of a rifle that should not feel over-powered hoping that the people who come to this page are looking for ways to add things to the game, if your not here to critique and improve the item then haunt the peer reviews and vote no when an item shows up, if your here to build then build. Games like UD are not purely about mechanics, if you want a purely mechanical game, play pong. --dead mr zombie 21:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

At any rate, it's a stand-up weapon suggestion nonetheless. The the dilution argument is very true, but seeing as there's only two armories, I doubt it would effect gaming balance too much. That said, if this were implemented, it would be more so for roleplaying purposes, much like the creation of cricket bats. --Private Mark 02:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yet the ammo is found everywhere. This'd require dropping all that rifle ammo (IP hits), and either the lessening of search rates for pistol/shotgun ammo or the increase of search odds overall in ammo locations. I don't like the idea of a pilgrimage to an Armory to get a rifle, and then having to hold on to one (or more). --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 02:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Appreciated, I do see the dilution argument, which was not in my initial thought process. I have updated accordingly and left the original information above. --Deadmrzombie 22 Mar 09, 2251 hours (UTC)

"im updating the concept to include that rifles would be available at all normal weapon locations" That's not good. Why should MALL stores have Assault Rifles? It is a military weapon after all. Police Depts is used by starting players. They won't be happy to waste 150/200 addtional XPs or to waste their APs and get rid of useless Rifles to get Pistols. Junkyards - maybe, with a very low chance to find it. But the only main point for Rifle should be Fort's Armory. Otherwise it will cause problems. It is even better not to just add Rifle to the Armory, but to replace Shotgun there with Rifle, as double-barreled shotgun is not really military weapon. --Vissarion Belinski 03:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Im attempting to find a balance point for the weapon, personally I've never seen a gun store in a mall. --dead mr zombie 21:13, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with new weapon suggestions. The TWO submachineguns in peer review are proof that they can get in to peer review even after being spammed/killed several times. The key is that the weapon needs to both be unique AND fun, within the confines of simplicity of Urban Dead. The way I read this one, its nothing more than an INFERIOR pistol. The fact it has a higher ammo capacity is not enough to offset all the bad parts.--Pesatyel 02:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I did attempt to "nerf" the item when I originally posted it, hoping the discussion would generate constructive critiques on how to better implement the weapon. --Deadmrzombie 22 Mar 09, 2251 hours (UTC)

Well there are a LOT of factors to consider. Location, for example. If you include a new weapon into the locations were weapons are currently found, people will complain about it "diluting" search rates for current weapons. That's true. So consider OTHER locations. Mansions, for example. The second is the KIND of rifle we are talking about which, I see your thinking "assault" rifle. Urban Dead is simplistic. The pistol is medium ammo and medium damage. The shotgun is low ammo and high damage, so what does that leave? High ammo and low damage. Or some kind of 'special' feature. The submachine guns both have a limited version "multi target" or "area affect".--Pesatyel 01:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

How about a gun that could deal damage from about 4-12. That way, it could be good, or bad. That might fall under submachinegun, as it would be hard to keep hold of. --Yonnua Koponen^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

How would it do damage like that?--Pesatyel 01:53, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Plague

Timestamp:	A Big F'ing Dog 16:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Zombies
Description:	I like the Necrotech skills but there's one thing that bothers me - they're too altruistic. I want there to be a choice between helping revive others and hording syringes for yourself. Plague would be a zombie subskill of Infectious Bite. Biting an already infected survivor who has less than 25hp would make them plagued, a new condition. The plague is a more potent version of the zombie infection that can linger in weak immune systems. A plagued survivor loses 1hp per turn just like infection, but only when they have less than 25HP. While a survivor can be infected and plagued at the same time the damage doesn't stack, even with both only 1hp is lost per turn. Healing the survivor to 25HP or higher would stop the health drain, but they'd still have the plagued condition. When their health is reduced to 24 or lower it'll start draining their HP again. So FAKs are effective treatment, but they can only put plague into remission. Only a revivification syringe would cure plague. Injecting a living human being (including yourself) would only cost 1AP, because they wouldn't struggle, but still use up the syringe. Being revived from the dead would also cure any plague you had while living. Theoretically someone could live with plague forever, but you'd want to cure it to make yourself less vulnerable if you're ever injured. It'd give people a reason to be selfish with syringes, appropriate for the zombie apocalypse.

Discussion (Plague)

This is annoyingly how i wanted infection to work in monroeville during the permaheadshot era. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 18:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Annoying, but interesting. It'd probably need a needle boost to even it out and I can't say that I'd like to see something like that happen. --Johnny Bass 18:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Or leave needles where they are and slightly boost FAK search rates. It probably wouldn't be terribly unbalancing even without something to counteract it though. Survivors may just want to keep two FAKs in reserve instead of one so they can bring themselves to 25 if they're badly injured and plagued. --A Big F'ing Dog 19:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I like this. It gives zombies another way to damage survivors and it gives needles another use, and yet neither application would be overpowered. Perfectly well reasoned.--Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 00:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't. This tips the scale too far over to chaos. The whole city would be red in ten days. -CaptainVideo 03:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Advanced Rot

Suugestion now up for voting (May Grud have mercy!)--Honestmistake 10:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Infection Safety

Timestamp:	Haliman - Talk 12:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Infection Change
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	Alright, I made this one after I saw the Multiple Infection Starins suggestion. Basically, this game isn't very newbie friendly. Most people quit right away. Well, what this would do, is make new players (say, level 5 and below)immune to infection. This won't be too much of a balence change since they are only level 5. Nothing is permanent yet, but what do you guys think?

Discussion (Infection Safety)

I remember something like this being suggested earlier (not sure if it was infection immunity, though). The fact is that it just postpones the eventual collision with reality. It's not really much of a difference whether they quit on level 1 or level 5. Also, this doesn't make any kind of sense flavour-wise. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 13:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

You and your flavour. Ok. Newer survivors are much more resistant to zombie infections as their immune systems are much more robust than long term survivors, who are only held together by necrotech chemicals. OR New survivors are more resistant to infection, having been pumped full of antibiotics before being airlifted into Malton. --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 15:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Your immune system gets better when you're exposed to nastities, and as such new players should be more vulnerable ;P. Also, if I recall correctly, only military characters are brought into Malton, the rest essentially just leave their homes when you start playing them. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 16:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

It all depends on the ailment in question. AIDS for example does nothing to boost your immune system. I'm pretty sure that anyone wandering into malton and its disease would have made sure they were topped up with useful anti zombie dugs. Incidently, where's all the flaming on developing suggestions? --Ross less ne s s^{Want a Location Image?} 19:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Infection isn't mainly what makes the game newby unfriendly. The spartan interface, lack of easily enterable buildings, and (really massive) dis-incentive to keep playing as a zombie once your level 1 survivor dies are what does that. Swiers 14:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I just have to put in my bit on this topic. This game is very newb unfriendly. Sure, you read that first day in Malton guide, right? Does it really help? Aside from telling you what the different classes are and what the guns are and some other relatively useless information, it doesn't help one bit. What are you going to do when you walk around, looking for a VSB PD, when all these other people have caded them up to EHB? It really is annoying, and there really aren't any guides that will give newbs a good idea of what to do in this game, like if your a shooter character, look for PDs, search for ammo, unload into zombies and if your a doctor, find hospitals, get faks, unload into wounded survivors. For veterans of this game this is obvious, but the same really cannot be said for the people who just started playing today. --ScaredPlayer 23:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The main problem of the game is that it is really hard at the beginning. As a level 1 you really are nothing more then a meatbag, be it a survivor or zombie. However making it more newbie friendly would require fundamental changes in the game. Which are hard to come by. This change might actually help though. I think infections can be quite an annoyance for newbies since they don't know how or where they can cure it (unless their doctors). Maybe a special ingame message would appear when you get your first infection telling you how and where to cure it. (just like with first times deaths)--Thadeous Oakley 15:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it gives some kind of message every time you're infected. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 16:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's hard to level up at the beginning--it takes a long time and a little bit of effort. Therefore, a lot of people quit. So what? I want to play with the people who sucked it up, not the idiocracy and their ever-vanishing attention spans. --Paddy Dignam^{IS DEAD} 16:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Paddy. Suck it up, meatbags. :P ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 07:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Infection is already on the weakside with the ability of anyone to heal it with a single FAK. Hell most players learn early on to carry at least 1 FAK for such emergencies, and it isn't THAT difficult for newbie survivors to find one. In fact, because healing is one of the most common ways of getting XP, infection is kinda inconsequential since it is automatically healed, even if the healer doesn't know the person is infected. I can see level 1 and level 2 characters being unaffected, but 5 is just too much.--```` —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pesatyel (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

neg on that chum. I reckon infection could use a boost, not a nerf. When's the last time anyone actually died of an infection anyway? --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 00:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

That's my point.--Pesatyel 09:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You're kidding right? You are aware that it's possible to run a level 5 character around Malton for a year contributing to the survivor cause every successfully? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 01:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Then how about a time limit too? Level 5, or two months. Whichever comes first? --Haliman - Talk 01:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I would even go as far to say rule of 3: after level 3, or after 3 weeks, you lose the immunity. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 02:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Simpler, I think and less of a hit on people who can't play regularly, is once you get, say, 300 XP, your no long immune (whether you SPEND the XP or not).--Pesatyel 09:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Since none of you seem to be getting it, you can have this when newbie zombies get immunity from headshot and stand up costs for the same amount of time. Deal? --

.

. <== DDR Approved Editor 01:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

That's actually not a bad idea. It's really painful for new people to lose 15 AP. Maybe not relieve them of all 10 of the cost, but preventing headshot's +5 cost wouldn't be too shabby. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 02:13, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

New zombies get immunity from Headshot and stand up costs right after we get permanently rid of zergers, ie. never. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 07:41, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Look, the point of this suggestion is to make the game more newbie friendly. Let's stop fighting and start giving structured criticism. I like the 300 XP idea. Have humans immune to infection, and zombies immune to head shot until then? You have been bitten. Normally, you would lose one HP per AP, but your body is filled with so many antibiotics from before getting dropped in, you are immune for now... AND You have been shot in the head. Normally, you would have to spend another 5 AP to stand up, but your body is barely decomposed, the bullet simply embeds itself in your head. Eh? --Haliman - Talk 05:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

My constructive criticism is that it is unfair to make players immune to infection. The XP limit or time limit or AP limit is secondary to the fact that this would be a nerf to infectious bite, and it seems infection is weak enough already. Therefore if you are going to give survivors some kind of immunity to infection, think of a way to give zombies a similar advantage at the same time. --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 22:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Portable NecroTech Equipment

Timestamp:	Nuerotoxic2213 13:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Slight Improvement/Balance Change
Scope:	Survivors - High Level
Description:	As Far as i'm Concerned i've been defending Ackland Mall for a good number of Years(been around since 05' actually) and i've always noticed that while i can't complain too much about the distance of NT's to some malls, Ackland by far is mostly boned. instead i believe that we should implement ever so slightly a form of portable Syringe/Necronet access equipment. much like a generator, once setup it can only be destroyed, not picked up and carried. while i know this sounds rediculously unfair to zombies, i believe that the following measures for said equipment is still fair while. in such cases as ackland mall, the mall falls too easily because it has never been able to get a fair chance to acquire syringes, since all zombies have to do is camp a few of themselves inside the ruined NT(like 7 blocks away) and the entire surburb goes to hell. A) Must be hooked up to a powered Generator to work B) Still costs 20AP to manufacture a syringe, and cannot search for syringes. they MUST be manufactured, eliminating the chance for any survivor to gain the ability to "find" syringes in any building other than the NT's C) Give it a HORRBILE search rate to severely lessen the chances of finding one and can only be Found in powered NT's by people with the all the NecroTech skills. D) For NecroNet Access the closest Phone Mast should be powered(provided were assuming it would run off of wireless internet) E) Identifying the portable equipment(for each necronet skill the search rate could increase 1%)can only be done by people who have all Necrotech skills(although the search rate would go up 1% per level it would only be able to be found once you acquire the last necrotech skill). F) Zombies gain more XP for destroying said equipment than they do for destroying generators G) Zombies have a higher percentage hit rate to destroy said equipment making the equipment "fragile"(which means zombie can easily de-commission said equipment by either destroying the equipment itself or by disabling the generator) H) Zombies can identify buildings with said equipment when powered, much like zombies can see which buildings have powered generators, eliminating the chances for a hidden NT "factory".

Discussion Portable NecroTech Equipment

I like all the provisions for this except "H" - not so much because I think it's unreasonable, but because I think it's impossible. How would a zombie know which building had a Portascanner in it? -CaptainVideo 13:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

i thought about that and i had to figure it this way, would it be completely fair to zombies if these portable machines could be easily hidden from view? while i made sure that zombies and humans alike benefit from this idea, i had to try and be as fair as possible. zombies who have sufficient skills can identify NT buildings. i say the same goes for this machine. as i said, that way there aren't any hidden NT's factories about. this also makes them more of a target for zombies. while it provides survivors with an ability to create syringes on the spot, it also makes them more prone to attack. Nuerotoxic2213 13:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I like your balanced approach, but I can't support this until this detail is either dropped or given a good backstory. Here, I have an idea. How about, "You are at [BUILDING]. Lights are on, and you hear the whir of light machinery inside"? Sooner or later - probably sooner - you'd figure out that this sound meant portable NecroNet gear. -CaptainVideo 00:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

So you are asking for a portable necronet system which connects wirelessly and works indefinitely? Check out the flavour text for rotter revives to see exactly why the first part would be a massive nerf to zombie kind wireless access to NecroNet. Change the explaination for how it works and i could see how this might work for a limited use item; ie it carries enough chemicals to produce 10 syringes or it has a chance to run out in a similar way too spray cans with replacement chemical stocks (like fueling a generator) available. Even balanced out like that I am still not sure it is needed.--Honestmistake 14:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

sure, limited uses sounds like a good part. its why this is in developement still. Nuerotoxic2213 14:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it would have to be limited in use or at least require some form of "ammo" in the form of refills... still leaves the problem of whether its actually needed though. Sure 1 mall gets it a little tough but no-one makes folk stay in malls, they stay because the benefits outweigh the draw backs. For this thing to be even halfway fair to zombies it would have to be so AP inefficient that even travelling 20 blocks to search would be a better option and that just makes it pointless froth--Honestmistake 14:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

i was only using Ackland as an example, i am sure that in many other places the same problem occurs. and while zombies have the ability to stand back up and be fine and we have the ability to barricade and use items most buildings fall due to either a lack of needles or a lack of survivors. this would possibly bring life back into abandonded suburbs giving zombies more of an area. or you could make it so every so often a syringe wouldn't work. there are many ways where you can cut back. make it have limited uses, keep it at 25 AP to manufacture and have it work 70% of the time. although in some opinions it may be "nerfing" zombies i don't think i was entirely unfair in that it can be identified from the street and easily destroyed by zombies while giving them more XP for destroying it while increasing their hit rate for it. Nuerotoxic2213 14:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't like this. If you're not comfortable at Ackland, move somewhere else. Not all places should be equally defendable, the differences give places identity. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 14:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

again......using ackland as an example. and i've been at ackland since 05'. and while its a really tough place to defend, it makes havercroft friendly to mostly high leveled players who also meta-game. looking for a way to involve and draw new players into current ghost-towns as well. lets face it, most new survivors run for the soft spots of malton such as the SW quad. Nuerotoxic2213 14:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I see no problem in new survivors going to "soft spots". Once they level up and/or find the safer places boring, they can go to more interesting places where everything is not flowers and candy. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 14:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

i never said new players going to soft spots WAS a problem, however this could entice them, as well as other players to different locations. in essence it make the game a little richer, as well as detract from it. Nuerotoxic2213 15:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that the game is still heavily mallcentric. That's the reason that the search rates for FAK were changed. For most players, there are really only 5 locations total anyone gives a crap about (malls, nts, hospitals, factories (generator) and auto repair (fuel)), especially after acquiring the 2 mall skills. Turning 3 other 4 into "mini nts" just makes it worse.--Pesatyel 05:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

No matter how you tried to nerf this update it would be devastating to zombies. Green suburbs would have a portable NT in every building and survivors could be a real pest if they decided to move into a ruined suburb with an armada of NTs at their disposal. It might be better to suggest an update for the wasteland next to ackland mall to become an NT building. --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 00:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, my, me! What a brilliant idea(!) We could have a whole slew of these, you know Santlerville doesn't have any libraries? Let's have a portable library! The Arkhams are a long way from any malls, so let's have portable malls!

/sarcasm

Welcome to this thing we call reality. Your parents lied to you, life isn't fair, not all men are born equal and not everywhere is as easy to defend. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 01:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I am totally going to patent and market the Portable Mall^TM. It should be out in time for the holidays. It's sure to be the #1 Christmas gift boutique item. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 09:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Way ahead of you. In time for Christmas: Portable Malton^TM! Its a computer file you load onto your desktop or portable device. Works just like a video game! -CaptainVideo 03:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sign Up Bonus

Suggestion up for voting, discussion moved to here.--Kamikazie-Bunny 19:51, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Bellow

Suggestion up for voting, comments moved to suggestion talk page. Swiers 18:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC) (sorry about that accidentally replaced it) --Kamikazie-Bunny 19:55, 30 March 2009 (BST)

Multiple Infection Strains

This suggestion has been moved to voting. The suggestion itself is located here and the discussion is located on the suggestion's talk page. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 05:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Advanced Diagnosis

Timestamp:	--Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 22:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Skill, balance change
Scope:	Survivors and Zombies
Description:	This skill would allow survivors to distinguish infected survivors from the uninfected. Infected survivors' HP would be shown in light green with this skill. Conversely, zombies could use this skill, in the same way that they can currently use diagnosis. Because undead physiology is different from the living, this skill could not be used to diagnose an infection in a zombie. Realism - It makes sense that survivors with a background in medicine (diagnosis) could pick out a survivor suffering from a zombie infection. In movies and literature infected survivors show signs of their impending demise in the form of cold sweats, palid complexion, shaking, etc. Even laypeople can spot a cold in a total stranger. If survivors and zombies can detect a 5HP loss in someone who slipped and fell in a ruined building they should also be able to spot the signature zombie bite and symptoms of an infection with the added experience of having basic diagnosis skills and witnessing their comrades die of infections. Game Balance - Just as Flesh Rot provided zombies with 2 advantages long enjoyed by survivors (Flak Jacket and Body Building), Advanced Diagnosis would provide survivors with the zombie advantage of being able to identify an infectection. Also it's a crossover skill so zombie players can make use of it. Furthermore, it would even out the number of survivor and zombie skills without having to introduce a new gameplay element. Implementation - This would go in the Scientific Skill tree as a 2nd level skill of diagnosis. However since Advanced Diagnosis would make it easier for survivors to heal infections, I could see introducing this new skill coupled with a boost to Infectious Bite, causing a 2HP loss for every 1AP spent.

Discussion (Advanced Diagnosis)

Make it a skill that is REQUIRED to cure infections, and make infections 2HP per AP, and you might get some traction. Sure, its "genre appropriate" that skilled doctors can detect infections, but its similarly appropriate that ONLY skilled doctors can cure them (not any shmoe with a first aid kit) and that they kill yah pretty quick. Swiers 02:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I second Swiers. These are two ideas that have been offered up separately a couple (dozen) times, maybe together they would work. --Zombie Lord 03:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Prognosis.--Pesatyel 03:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

How about the Swiers combo idea. That a dupe too?--Zombie Lord 04:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey I kinda like the idea of advanced diagnosis being required to treat infections. Anyone with a FAK could still heal damage, but the infection itself could only be cured by someone with advanced diagnosis. With advanced diagnosis you would get the message - You restore 10HP to JoeJoe, using your medical training to cure the infection. Though maybe the name would have to change if it was used for treating and not just diagnosing. Like Advanced Medicine , dunno --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 15:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

By the time you locate somebody who can cure you, you'll have perished... Whether the zombie ran out of AP or you just got revivified, you'll probably have 25 HP or less, meaning that you can take only 13 steps before dying of infection. I think survivors should still be able to recognise and cure their own infections: it's really not difficult. --LaosOman 16:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Since when could you NOT cure your own infection? That is the primary reason Infectious Bite is considered "underpowered".--Pesatyel 03:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Requiring an additional skill in order to cure infection wouldn't really do much I don't think. It would just make it harder on newbies. If I can't cure myself, I'm screwed until I can find someone who can cure me.--Pesatyel 03:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

So let's set aside the notion of a boost to infectious bite (either by doubling the damage or requiring a new skill to treat it). Lets take the suggestion 1 proposition at a time. How do you feel about a new skill called Advanced Diagnosis that would allow survivors to see who is infected? --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 20:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Prognosis.--Pesatyel 03:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)--Pesatyel 02:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Advanced Diagnosis sounds good. Just don't make it a requirement for curing infection. --LaosOman 17:25, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

You did a good job outlining this skill. I'm surprised Prognosis wasn't implemented. Admittedly I've enjoyed the guessing game survivors have of predicting which survivors need infections cured, but this skill makes sense. I also like how you suggest it being paired with an update of a more intense infection. --Fiffy 03:39, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

So it seems there is no real objection to the idea of advanced diagnosis as stated? Or perhaps this suggestion has been lost in the clutter? --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 22:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

As stated, this is exactly like Prognosis.--Pesatyel 02:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe this is exactly like prognosis. For instance, prognosis has the following stipulation, "The maximum HP level of the survivor is also displayed next to their name." Advanced diagnosis does not. Also I've stated that it could not be used to diagnose an infection in a zombie, whereas the prognosis proposal doesn't appear to specify. Furthermore, this skill would be a cross over that zombies could also use, and I see nothing to that effect in the prognosis link you've sited. --Giles Sednik ^CAPDSWA 23:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Fine, go for it, but the basic idea is the same and zombies don't NEED another cross over skill when they can already sense infection (and HP) with Scent Blood. And a dupe doesn't have to be EXACTLY like to be a dupe.--Pesatyel 10:02, 29 March 2009 (BST)

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