Suggestion:20080315 Commerce

	Edited Suggestion
	This suggestion has been removed from voting because the suggestion being proposed was significantly edited after voting was under way. Suggestions that need modification should be removed and resubmitted as a new suggestion.

20080315 Commerce

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nathan Blackwell (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

Suggestion type
In-game Trading

Suggestion scope
Survivors/Zombies (to a more limited extent)

Suggestion description
Flavor/Background The zombie apocalypse completed hundreds of years of social and economic prophecy, a single culminating battle of proletariat (zombie) and bourgeois (survivor) had ended a system of rampant international capitalism and consumerism. The malls of Malton, while once filled with consumer zombies buying every product shoved down their throats by advertising, are now filled with penniless, yet contented, survivors. There was no money for years, there was no trade. Yet, the beast of capitalism begins to rear it's ugly head.

Advanced revivication technology has led the human-zombie war of Malton into a stalemate. As a result, some sense of modified civilization is beginning to rise from the ashes. Survivors have taken to attributing value to the new coins of Malton...bottlecaps.(or 'money', see 'WTF? Bottlecaps?!?') Using bottlecaps/money as a base standard of value for useful items, trade and mercantilism is beginning to appear throughout the city.

Mrh? Commerce?

This system incorporates a trade dynamic with survivors. To trade, a survivor must use 2AP to 'initiate trade' with another survivor via an action available with purchase of a 'Commerce' skill (miscellaneous). Then, when the next survivor logs in they can choose to trade (2AP) or not trade (0AP) with the initiator of the trade. Then when the first survivor logs in (assuming both players are in the same structure still) he offers his goods (and their 'bottlecap'/'money' value is displayed) and 'requests' what he would like in turn (ammunition, etc) of a near-equal value to what he is trading. Upon the next users login, if he has the 'requested' items, he may trade them, if not, he may make a 'counter offer' giving the initial survivor another choice to accept or deny the trade. At any time, either survivor can cancel the trade, causing both players to recover any spent AP (assuming they are under 50AP and have not moved or performed any other action since the trade began) Each initial round of 'offer' and 'counter offer' costs 1AP. If the trade is not equal in terms of bottlecaps/money and bottlecap/money value of items then it cannot proceed. The 'fair trade' system would probably be within 10% value. For instance, if Object A costs 100 bottlecaps/money, it can be traded for Object B worth anywhere between 90 and 110 bottlecaps/money. The 'fair trade' system (as well as high AP and time cost) of trading is designed to discourage cheating.

In addition, players may directly trade bottlecaps for items of value, and some items can ONLY be traded for bottlecaps/money.

Bottlecaps/money would be supplemented into the economy in finite amounts, with a set number in circulation at any given time (and only to players who possess the 'Commerce' skill). Players have a limit to the number of bottlecaps/money the can posses at any given time, like seasonal items. Bottlecaps/Money would be 'in circulation' in a finite amount (X units in entire game) and can be searched for in banks/streets/malls. If a player does not spend any amount of money within a span of time (one week, perhaps) they will recieve a message telling them to spend it or it will be 'lost' and removed from the game economy.

Also, when a zombie kills a survivor, they are naturally attracted to the 'shiny' bottlecaps/money, and take a certain percentage (probably a very high one) of whatever bottlecaps/money the survivor possessed. This adds a little extra punch, similar to the way headshot effects zombies. The zombies, however, are assumed to drop the bottlecaps/money, removing them permanently from the game, much the same way as if the money was lost.

The fact that theoretically, there can be no money in the economy (if all is lost or stolen) bottlecaps/money would have to regularly be implemented into the game, perhaps when it runs low. (below X units) Also, as the units of currency in the game are lowered, perhaps this could effect the value of certain items. (for instance, if 100,000 units of currency exist, a pistol clip would cost much more bottlecaps than if the economy possessed only 1000. The amount of bottlecaps in the economy would not effect item-for-item trade, however, as all item prices would inflate or become cheaper equally, making their relation to each other equal.

The 'bottlecap/money value' of items is determined by their rarity (search rates) and their usefulness. Decorations and clothing can also be sold, giving museum-looters their own lucrative business.

Why?

Why does the emerging independent nation of Malton need an economy/barter system? In certain areas where exploration for valuable commodities is impossible, some players could find a lucrative lifestyle in playing 'middle man' to a safe house. For instance, if Survivor A could several days searching a hospital for First Aid Kits, and then traverse dangerous infested ground to a police station, where Survivor B plentiful ammunition and little medical care. Survivor A trades his valuable first aid kits to Survivor B. Survivor B returns by offering his ammunition, and a few extra bottlecaps/money for the hassle. Survivor A has made a profit, and can go on to sell the ammunition (perhaps, even, at the hospital he came from before) and Survivor B now has the medical supplies he so desperately needed and didn't have the time to earn himself.

Why does puny harmanz trading bottlecaps/money make the streets better for the new money-less social republic of necro-man? If the new human economy becomes addicted to trade and commerce, zombies will make sport of killing affluent merchants for the sake of spilling their coins into the sewers, never to be seen again. Zombies will find ambushing trade points and established merchants will hinder supply routes to besieged areas and add extra injury to the players.

In short, commerce will add a new level of depth to a game which is already famous for developing player-based internal systems of politics and factions.

WTF? Bottlecaps?!? I didn't expect this to be such a wide debate. hehe. It's a reference to oldschool post-apocalyptic game 'Fallout' in which a post-nuclear world has reverted to using bottle caps as currency, presumably because there are no remaining facilities to print and regulate money. The only reason I used these is because A.) We don't know exactly where Malton is, so what money could we use? Dollars? Euros? Yuan? Knuts, Sickles, and Galleons? and B.) Players from all over play, so I didn't want to use one value of currency over another. I suppose, instead of bottlecaps, there could be an object called simply 'money' with set value.

Anti Zerging Measures I realize now (after reading pre-submission discussion) I was naive excluding sufficient anti-cheating measures before, he I attempt to address them.

1. Trading requires lots of AP for both parties involved. 2AP to initiate a trade, 2AP to accept a trade, and 1AP per round of negotiation, the high amount of time is the first discouraging factor against zerging. 2. The 'Fair Trade' system prevents players from trading bottlecaps/money and items which have equal value. This makes it impossible for one Survivor to transfer an entire inventory to another character without receiving a fair deal in return. 3. The nature of turn-based trading allows either participant in a trade to cancel or renegotiate the trade at any time

Search Rates Bottlecaps/Money would be found in banks in chunks of 10 (assuming player can carry 100 maximum) at 10% to find (15% with generator, 20% with bargain hunting) and only if the survivor has 'commerce' skill. This means a survivor can collect 100 bottlecaps/money units (maximum) in 50-100 turns. These numbers are preliminary, and the final ones are up to Kevan.

Encumberance 1% per 20 bottlecaps/money (5% total with 100 bottlecaps/money)

Item Values NOTE: Do not take these as final, at best they are misguided and at worst totally wrong, these are just what I feel items are worth in relation to each other. If implemented, values will, of course, be up to Kevan. For the purpose of this, 'Bottlecaps' and 'Money' will have the same value piece-by-piece. This also assumes that a person can carry a maximum of 100 bottlecaps/money at a time, and the economy is well supplemented. (bottlecaps/money has not been sufficiently lost or stolen) Remember, these items are just to give an IDEA of values. The actual values of items would be a calculation of their relative usefulness, search rates, etc.

Misc
Beer - 3
Book - 2
Crucifix - 1
Newspaper - free
Poetry Book - free
Spray Can - 7
Stale Candy - 5
Wine - 3
Wire cutters - negative 50 (just kidding) free

Melee Weapons
Crowbar - 5
Baseball Bat - 4
Length of Pipe - 7
Knife - 7
Fire Axe - 12
Cricket Bat - 4
Fencing Foil - 4
Golf Club - 4
Hockey Stick - 4
Pool Cue - 4
Ski Pole - 4
Tennis Racket - 4

Firearms (clips are automatically removed when trading firearms and must be traded separately)
Pistol - 20
Shotgun - 20
Flare Gun - 5

Ammunition
Pistol Clip - 7
Shotgun Shell - 4

Useful Items
Binoculars - 15
DNA Extractor - 30
First Aid Kit - 15
Flak Jacket - 40
Fuel Can - 30
GPS Unit - 20
Mobile Phone - 10
Necrotech Revivification Syringe - 20
Portable Generator - 50
Radio - 20
Radio Transmitter - 50
Toolbox - 40

Decorative Items
All - 50

Updates I addressed some of the concerns in the 'Kill' group, and TRIED to get the format more correct.

=Voting Section=

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Keep- this sounds it can work ... face it if humans where to work together more effincely this is what is needed --The1doctor 09:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
2. Keep - Yay for Fallout --Mikhail 04:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
3. Keep - You know what? Out of all the Trading suggestions I've seen, this is definitely the best. No question about it. All you need to do now is get the template right. :P -- Cheese 00:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
4. Keep -Wow, I like it too!--Airborne88^T|Z.Quiz|PSS 00:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
5. Keep - Bottle caps would be an interesting new item. I'll place it near my book, wire cutters, and wine. Oh, wait..theres a trading suggestion. -doc crook 01:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
6. Keep/Change - Replace bottle caps with wire cutters and you got me.... kidding, sort of an inside joke.... you get a keep from me.... also as Cheese...--/~Rakuen~\^Talk I Still Love Grim 01:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
7. Keep - The best trading suggestion - ever. --Themanwhocares4 01:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
8. Keep - I like; good work.--Jamie Cantwell3 03:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
9. weak keep - I dont think this could be particularly useful, as it could take days to complete a trade while you wait for the other player to log in after each round of negotiation. Might be faster to just search for the items you need. I dont see the harm in it though, and it may prove to be interesting, so I'll give you a weak keep.--Dr Doom86 ^{T PSS} 08:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
10. Almost a Kill - I can see that this is by far the best trading system so far, with anti-zerging methods included, but I'm still unsure if a trading system is worth it... I mean, it's not that hard to search for stuff. • DS • ^{Tlk•Dev•W!•+1} 10:24, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Kill Votes

1. INCOMPLETE First of all, bottlecaps? WTF? In the scenario your describing, MONEY would still hold value. Look at Land of the Dead for example. The people of Fiddler's Green weren't accepting bottlecaps when money was available. If you insist on having something "shiny" for the zombies, make it silver dollars or quarters or pounds or shillings. I vote incomplete because, again, bottlecaps is retarded, but primarily because you didn't list any values for objects. How many coins is a pistol worth? A syringe? A generator? What does "near equal" mean? Lets say that a pistol costs 100 coins. Is "near equal" only 90 coins? 80 coins? Do the participating players decide? (if that's the case, there is no "anti-Zerge" there if I can trade stuff for 1 coin each). WHERE do the coins come from? Just magically appear in people's inventory? Do you have to search banks (most likely) or other locations (stadiums, clubs, cinemas and PDs come to mind)? What search %? How many do you find per search? And, speaking of inventory, how much space would they take? And if players have a "limited amount they can carry" what is the maximum? And what percentage of coins do the zombies take? Random amount? Fixed amount? What happens to the coins when a zombie dies? Can zombies "steal" them from other zombies (the suggestion DOES say "player" NOT "survivor"? I'm not saying I don't like the idea. If I didn't I wouldn't be asking all those questions. But most, if not all of those questions need to be answered/considered first.--Pesatyel 08:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
2. Kill - incomplete. --Funt Solo ^QT 10:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
3. Kill - a) incomplete, as above b) bottlecaps = retarded, as above c) i don't feel that it adds any "layers" to the game, in fact what it does add i find annoying.... this is well thought out, even if it is incomplete, and as others have said probably the best trade system ever suggested... but i still do not dig the concept. --WanYao 11:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
4. Only Just kill Read the comments, tweak it and give it another go. Its well thought out, but incomplete.--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
5. Weak kill - With an AP cost this high, it's only going to be used by zrgers and, occasionally, groups.--Studoku 13:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
6. kill - good idea, i just feel very blah about it --Scotw 14:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
7. Kill looks like Funt and Wan got in most of the points I would have made if I'd spotted this earlier, so it just remains for me to say that this would severely affect the socialist republic of Malton. Remember your Rousseau, comrades! No one man should possess enougth to purchase another, and no one man should be poor enougth to sell his labour to another..... Viva la Revolution comrades!--Seventythree^Talk 14:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
8. Kill - I like this suggestion, but I find it unnecessary. Oh, and bottlecaps are a Fallout reference, in case anyone is wondering.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  17:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes

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