Talk:Suburb/archives

From The Urban Dead Wiki
Jump to navigationJump to search

Miscellaneous Discussion

Zombie Map vs Category:Suburbs

Perhaps the Category:Suburbs map should be a strictly NPOV - listing only known facts - and Zombie Map becomes the report page? --Lint 19:00, 16 April 2006 (BST)

I think it's fine the way it is way. --Sindai 22:42, 16 April 2006 (BST)
There's more to suburb status than zombie population. A suburb with 100 zombies and 200 well-organized survivors is basically safe, whereas a suburb with 100 well-organized zombies and 100 disorganized survivors is just a hundred servings at the Bra!nz Diner. --Dan 05:05, 17 April 2006 (BST)

What the hell?

I think Lovemachine's edits should be tossed. He's extremely vauge, and his edits make no sense whatsover. --flareblade77 06:59, 13 April 2006 (EST)

Nearly all wide open, 1-10 zeds per square--may be on the move possible downgrade in near future. All wide open....To clarify such a vague and confusing report...there are zeds they are on most squares, they may be moving, ie to another suburb, at which point suburb should be downgraded. All wide open...all buildings wide open etc. I guess thats hard to figure out. I thought those things might help a survivor. The suburbs i updated were nowhere near the status they should be. I'll tell you what, rather than vague, lets make them completely outdated. Most people don't have the time to do in depth reports. I wont be doing any more in the future! Cheers! --Lovemachine 06:53, 17 April 2006 (BST)

New Suburb page

Vote for or against the new suburb category page. I only place the 5 most recent reports on the page to serve as an example only on how they should be displayed. When and IF this change is placed in action, all reports are going to be added and the map updated.

This voting will keep for two week (or less, based on moderation wish). This voting needs at least 20 votes, and 2/3 of then in favour, to pass.

  1. For - Authors vote. --hagnat t • w 01:32, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  2. Keep - I love it, but add the suburb list at the bottom incase someone is looking for a suburb he doesn't know the location of. Good enough to warrant a keep, but still, add that list!. By the way, this needs 20 votes and 66.66...% Keep to get implemented... That's an AND. Another good suggestion got unanimous 15 keeps but did not pass for it did not have 20 votes. --Certified=Insane 02:11, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  3. For - It's so pretty, but why is it /new instead of THE page? Or are we voting to replace the current one? If so, I'm still For. --Mia K (sotss) 02:27, 17 April 2006 (BST)
    Yes, we are voting to replace the current one. The '/new' is just temporary. --hagnat t • w 02:29, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  4. Keep, For and Yes - Pretty! --Lucero Capell 02:29, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  5. For Looks good and editing is simplified --NutVaccine 02:39, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  6. For - Much prettier than the current version and much easier to edit. I just wish I could figure out how to place a timestamp without also putting my name the way the timestamps are in the example. How do you do that? --Sindai 02:44, 17 April 2006 (BST)
    Use five tildes. ~~~~~ --hagnat t • w 02:47, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  7. For: I like it. - Yossitaru 02:59, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  8. For: Looks good and organized, I'm for it. - KZN02 02:10, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  9. For: More organized --Virus002 03:18, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  10. For: Very nice looking. --RedKnight 03:22, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  11. Change I like the design but... It's too pink! It's too bright. Do the people here have something against normal Colors? Lime, Pink Neon Lemon? The design is good but the colors, Argh! --Rogue 04:42, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  12. For - I like the colors and the way it is set up. I would suggest it be numbered like votes though. That way we know if there is more then 100 suburb notices. --ramby T--W! - SGP 04:49, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  13. For - Seems clean. --Jorm 07:02, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  14. For - Looks simple enough, but the use of color leaves something to be desired. --Aquastorm 11:11, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  15. For - It's all good. --Ivy
  16. For - A welcome change; the old one is visually caustic. D: --Lightstar
  17. For - So much easier on the eyes. --Boogedyboo 15:08, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  18. For - Yay. I like it. --Brizth W! 15:24, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  19. For - Map is much easier on the eyes and looks cleaner, too. --halomarine34 15:36, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  20. Change - I like everything about it except for the Very Dangerous color. The Red on the old map got your attention and told you to stay away. The color on this one looks pink and not very dangerous. Saromu 16:02, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  21. For I like the redesign, but not the pastel colors. A Very Dangerous suburb needs a color that says "Danger" - Red works good for this. We can have the old color scheme without it being so visually caustic, just mute the colors. A deep blood red, a darker yellow, etc. --Bobby Heathrow 16:23, 17 April 2006 (BST)
    the darker a color is, the worst it is to read what is inside of it. Since the text inside the cells are all link, i cant change their color like i would with regular text. --hagnat t • w 18:12, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  22. For - I like it. More modern, clearer and fits into my screen resolution better. Looks more stylish than the current one. --Preasure 20:15, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  23. For - Much more comprehensive, if a bit pastel-ish. --MorthBabid 21:04, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  24. For - It certainly shows the map better, and it gives a better overall impression. However, as the others have said, the Very Dangerous colour should be changed. -- Exmouth 21:29, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  25. For - It's a lot quicker to read at a glance. I agree with the opinion that there should still be a suburb list for quick lookups so you wouldn't have to hunt through the map. --Char 01:20, 18 April 2006 (BST)
    Use the find command of your browser. It is only a key in firefox :) --hagnat t • w 02:00, 18 April 2006 (BST)
  26. For - I guess, not that big of a change. Anyway, for those that want a color change, how about instead of changing any of the actual box colors the outline of the box is changed to a darker color. That way you would have the easy to read pastel in the center and a more eye grabbing darker outline for it. --Lieutenant Kingston 04:13, 18 April 2006 (BST)
  27. For, but change the colors - A template set is the rational way to do this. With a template set, the technical side of fiddling with the colors becomes effortless. Kudos to Hagnat for setting it up. And Happy Easter, until we figure out a better color set. --Dan 04:43, 18 April 2006 (BST)
  28. For - Much better than the other one --ANB 11:27, 18 April 2006 (BST)
  29. For Looks good! --Kluver 16:31, 18 April 2006 (BST)
  30. For - Sherbet-y goodness! --John Ember 18:12, 18 April 2006 (BST)
  31. For - I like it! Very simple and looks very nice! --FishyWorm 00:20, 19 April 2006 (BST)
  32. For - and change the red to scarier. Great job. --Tycho44 03:00, 19 April 2006 (BST)
  33. For - and leave the colors, they are soft and gentle on my eyes--Bermudez 13:43, 19 April 2006 (BST)


Voting passed: the suburb page was changed at 00:57, 19 April 2006. --hagnat t • mod 18:19, 19 April 2006 (BST)

New-page question

Ok, someone says change but doesn't like the colors. What am I missing? If you don't like the new colors, what do you like? The colors seem to be the main change. Instead of the rules of how to post a report, it has a red link to the discussion page. I don't like the pastels, but I'll wait to vote against until I figure out what everyone is ga-ga over. --Dan 04:59, 17 April 2006 (BST)

Choose one. --hagnat t • w 18:10, 17 April 2006 (BST)
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
As anyone can see, the more red the color is, the harder it is to read its information. The pastel colors where chosen because it is easy to read what is written inside. And no, i cant change a link color... i already tried. --hagnat t • w 18:10, 17 April 2006 (BST)
  • Do we really need nine different levels of red? Samples 1-5 seemed ample enough while leaving the link color readable. --MorthBabid 21:08, 17 April 2006 (BST)
    • He. I guess i just failed to express myself again. Those colors are there to show people you cant get too much red whitout sacrificing the text you want people to read. But i fail to really understand the meaning of the color. It could be beige for all that matters. People would read what a color mean and then read 'ow, here it is very dangerous', whitout caring to the color. --hagnat t • w 21:47, 17 April 2006 (BST)
I think it's best to keep it the way it is. While 1 or 2 up there are still readable, they wouldn't match the other colors the way 0 does. If we changed the red we'd have to change the others, and it the whole thing would't be as easy to read. I don't think it's that big a deal. --Sindai 22:18, 17 April 2006 (BST)
Thanks, Hagnat. On my screen, sample five looks best. Pink just doesn't say "Danger!", nor do pastel orange and yellow say "Caution!" at their respective levels. When I went to look what the actual pastels in use were, I saw the answer to my own question -- it uses a set of templates instead of having people change the color in an ordinary wiki-tag table. I like the template format, even though the colors still say "Happy Easter" at least on my screen. With templates, adjusting the colors will be easy if you come up with a better set. --Dan 04:32, 18 April 2006 (BST)
This is the beauty of this map template. One can easily choose wich template to use where, and then just change the template css settings until he finds some of his like :) --hagnat t • w 04:41, 18 April 2006 (BST)

Here's a set of border-and-background combinations that are a little less pastel, while still being thoroughly readable on my screen. But my monitor is a piece of junk -- how's the readability for everyone else? --Dan 05:35, 18 April 2006 (BST)

v d m s

Looks good on my iBook's screen. It's callibrated, so what do others say? --ANB 11:27, 18 April 2006 (BST)

Well, it's readable, but I'd have to see the whole suburb map in those colors before deciding which I like better. I'm thinking that at this point we should just put it to another vote after hagnat's template is implemented. (It seems safe to assume that it'll carry the current vote.) --Sindai 17:32, 18 April 2006 (BST)
This color set seems to be fine too. we can vote on wich set to use after the new page get approved --hagnat t • w 19:00, 18 April 2006 (BST)
Why do we exacly wait? Seems to have quite unanimous support. Yes, I know, you originally put the vote for two weeks, but this page doesn't have any special restrictions on page or policy changes... --Brizth W! 19:11, 18 April 2006 (BST)
I made the voting process a two week period because most policys and changes to the wiki are made using this period of time. If you all think that the change could be made *right now*, i can change it in a few minutes. --hagnat t • w 19:26, 18 April 2006 (BST)
Looks like we need another vote to decide that :D Well, no, seriously, I think you could just implement it right away. I don't believe there will be 20 something people jumping out of wiki-lurking, just to complain about Suburbs category reform. --Brizth W! 19:37, 18 April 2006 (BST)
Lovin' the color as well. --Mia K (sotss) 19:50, 18 April 2006 (BST)
For: those very nice example colors ... I thought that '5' would be needed in order to look scary, but your example above (about '2') shows that borders make a huge difference as well. Thanks hagnat, Dan, Lieutenant Kingston, all --Tycho44 03:12, 19 April 2006 (BST)


new suburb template

<pre> tagged out to get this page uncategorised. –Xoid S•T•FU! 11:33, 22 June 2006 (BST) 

{{Suburb | 

snX=3 | 
snY=3 |
suburb_number= 23 |

Suburb_MiniMap = |
mast_coordinates = the [[Herman Building]] [24,26] |

NW_suburb= Judgewood |
N_suburb= Gatcombeton |
NE_suburb= Shuttlebank |

W_suburb = Chudleyton |
Darvall Heights |
E_suburb = Eastonwood |

SW_suburb= West Becktown |
S_suburb = East Becktown |
SE_suburb = Richmond Hills |

suburb_groups = 
*[[Warseers]]
*[[Underground Special Forces]]
*[[Channel 4 News Team]]
*[[La Revolution]]
*[[Crossman Defense Force]]
*[[OMEN]]
*[[Caiger Mall Survivors]]
*[[Liberation of Crossman Department]]
*[[Red-eye Republic]]
*[[Mall Tour '06]]
*[[McZed's|McZed's™]]
*[[5punk]]
*[[Malton Fire Department]]
*[[Malton Police Department]]
*[[9th Air Force]]
*[[US Army]]
*[[The Corleone Family]]
*[[Maiming Maniacs]] |

Malls = [[Caiger Mall]] |
Police = 3 |
Fire = 2 |
Hospitals = 3 |
NTs = 2 |
Other = Schools 1, Monuments 2, Junkyards 2
|
}}

comments

I just created the template to the right. This demo is using Darval Heights data; As any can see, it makes things cleaner to be read, and add two minimaps so we can locate where in Malton that suburub is whitout havint to search for it on the suburbs page and whitout having to open another window to have an idea on how the suburbs looks like (second minimap, not showing). --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 04:03, 21 April 2006 (BST)

I took the liberty of editing one suburb and used this template on it. Hollomstown is using this template, so you can see how it would work. It is a suburb with few movement, so i think only few people will ever notice the change. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 05:48, 21 April 2006 (BST)

The mini-maps are great. Is it possible to have the suburb page include the danger level, automatically updated when the category:suburbs page is changed? I'm not seeing a reasonable way, off the top of my head, but it would be kind of nice if we could. --Dan 21:20, 21 April 2006 (BST)

I am still trying to find a way to pass parameters from one page to another. When i manage to find a way to do it, it will be possible to update a suburb danger level based on one single page, instead of having to move to the Suburb Category page, update the danger level, and then move to all other 9 suburbs that list that same burb and update the danger level there. This is 10 edits for just a danger level report. As i want to find out, it could be possible to do it with just one. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 21:28, 21 April 2006 (BST)
Brainstorming here, not saying this can work, but I'm thinking you'd have to change how people edit the map with updated danger levels. Instead of editing the page itself, you could have an edit-danger-level link in each square, in addition to the link to see the suburb page. The target would be something of this form, with a different template page to edit for each suburb. Then all the pages related to that suburb (i.e. its suburb page, the pages of adjacent suburbs showing nearby danger levels, the map, and maybe the mini-maps) could use that template. Even if it works, it might not be worth the additional complexity for users just posting updates. Even if we came up with the best imaginable wiki setup from the pov of reading it, it would be no good if it was such a PITA that no one updated it, so keeping the updating easy is a top-priority constraint. --Dan 19:50, 22 April 2006 (BST)
HA. HA HA. MU HU HA HA HA HA HA. I just made it possible! And in order to avoid 100 templates being listed on the templates used on this page:, i abused a wiki flaw that allows me to use something on my User page as template... so, anyway... let us go back to Hollomstown... i created this page, that is basicaly the MapModerate template call. When i ask the MaltonMap template to call it, it updateds to that same color!. Now, let us make it easier for people to update reports, right ? Let us create a link, below the map, that people can use to access that page and update the Danger Level report. I will sample this in Hollomstown right now. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 20:59, 22 April 2006 (BST)
DONE! See Hollomstown to see how it looks like. The template to the right is outdated now. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 20:59, 22 April 2006 (BST)
Hmm, did the &action=edit get cut off from the update-here url, or did I click when you had put up an initial version that didn't have it? --Dan 21:10, 22 April 2006 (BST)
I edited your post because it wasn't fittin right here on my page. That link was damn too long, so i made it shorter. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 21:21, 22 April 2006 (BST)
I really, really like the new template. Good work. --Brizth W! M T 21:23, 22 April 2006 (BST)

In case someone else noticed, i used the new template on the first row of suburbs. If more people could help on this, the job could be completed in no time, and then the Malton Map and all suburbs maps would update automaticaly based on a single user edit. Tomorrow i plan to work on another row, and then i will format my computer -my poor baby needs a reset :(- so, any help would be welcome.--People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 04:58, 23 April 2006 (BST)

I could do the third row from the top, since the horde I play with (Church of the Resurrection) is working its way across them. I'll also do Molebank, Spicer Hills, and Vinetown, as they have historical signifacance to the Church. Won't get to it until Monday, Thursday or Friday, though. --Dickie Fux 20:56, 25 April 2006 (BST)
Working my way across the bottom three rows at the moment. --Kenny Matthews 19:37, 25 April 2006 (BST)
Great job Kenny :D --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 21:09, 25 April 2006 (BST)
I've noticed that some editors have kept the little flags in the new template despite the template talk page sort of discouraging that practice. I am inclined to agree that we should remove the tiny flags. Especially when there is no policy for their size and contents and we'd wind up running into a situation where we have to go through a process of deciding what flags are acceptable or not. I also suppose we need some agreement on what is getting placed in the "Other" buildings section. Is it all other buildings or only the special complexes? --Lint 20:20, 25 April 2006 (BST)
Furthermore, the naming convention of the Phone Masts should follow the Location Style Guide. Include the "thes" and provide unique coordinate-related names for non-descript buildings like Factories and Warehouses. --Lint 20:53, 25 April 2006 (BST)
We could discuss this on the template talk page, what you think ? --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 21:09, 25 April 2006 (BST)
Sorry, I wasn't aware of these considerations...I have no opinion on the groups flags and phone mast location names. I was wary of removing information where it was present (i.e. for the flags and for the "others" building type) and was unaware of the location conventions; this last item I will fix now. --Kenny Matthews 23:14, 25 April 2006 (BST)
You don't have to apologize for anything - you've done great work. I was just bringing it up for discussion before all the suburbs were redone. --Lint 23:26, 25 April 2006 (BST)
Sounds good to me. To the template talk page, then. --Kenny Matthews 23:29, 25 April 2006 (BST)

I think all that's left is Chudleyton and West Becktown. Do we want each of these suburb pages categorized under Suburbs? If yes, it could probably be added to the suburb template's noinclude section without breaking anything. --Lint 21:46, 29 April 2006 (BST)

Aren't all suburb pages categorised like that? Quite a few are categorised under themselves. I didn't find anything particularly special looking through the code for those two pages... --Kenny Matthews 05:44, 1 May 2006 (BST) Oh. Or do you mean includeonly? If you do, I'm all for it. --Kenny Matthews 06:09, 1 May 2006 (BST)
Chudleyton and West Becktown are finished. Yeah, I guess I meant includeonly. However it looks like it might also have the effect of categorizing this category talk page as well as the template talk page due to the examples. Feel free to revert it if that's something we should avoid. --Lint 02:52, 2 May 2006 (BST)

How things are going to work

...once we finish moving all suburb page to the new template thing.

people will not update the [:Category:Suburb] page, they will use the DangerReport user page for the suburb they want to update. If they want to update the Danger Level color, they just change it on the front page, if they want to change the report, they will change in the talk page for that suburb, leaving previous history on the noinclude section.

Ok, example.

We want to change Dakerstown danger level from Danger to Safe.
We go to Dakerstown page, look at the bottom of the suburb box and follow the link provided in the Update Dakerstown's danger level here line.
There we edit the front page, changing {{mapDanger}} to {{mapSafe}}
The user then goes to that same page discussion page, and moves the previous report to the Previous Reports section, and files a new one in its place.
The MaltonMap and all suburbs maps will then read the content of User:DangerReport/Dakerstown and change the color level
Category:Suburbs will read User_talk:DangerReport/Dakerstown and change the suburb report in the main page.
Dakerstown Jensentown Quarlesbank West Boundwood East Boundwood Lamport Hills Chancelwood Earletown Rhodenbank Dulston
Roywood Judgewood Gatcombeton Shuttlebank Yagoton Millen Hills Raines Hills Pashenton Rolt Heights Pescodside
Peddlesden Village Chudleyton Darvall Heights Eastonwood Brooke Hills Shearbank Huntley Heights Santlerville Gibsonton Dunningwood
Dunell Hills West Becktown East
Becktown 		Richmond Hills Ketchelbank Roachtown Randallbank Heytown Spracklingbank Paynterton
Owsleybank Molebank Lukinswood Havercroft Barrville Ridleybank Pimbank Peppardville Pitneybank Starlingtown
Grigg Heights Reganbank Lerwill Heights Shore Hills Galbraith Hills Stanbury Village Roftwood Edgecombe Pegton Dentonside
Crooketon Mornington North Blythville Brooksville Mockridge Heights Shackleville Tollyton Crowbank Vinetown Houldenbank
Nixbank Wykewood South Blythville Greentown Tapton Kempsterbank Wray Heights Gulsonside Osmondville Penny Heights
Foulkes Village Ruddlebank Lockettside Dartside Kinch Heights West Grayside East Grayside Scarletwood Pennville Fryerbank
New Arkham Old Arkham Spicer Hills Williamsville Buttonville Wyke Hills Hollomstown Danversbank Whittenside Miltown

Here it is! the new and improved map of malton, with danger reports being updated by the update -suburb- danger report link. --hagnat mod 18:57, 4 May 2006 (BST)

In favor of

  • It's prettyful! --SirensT RR 04:14, 21 April 2006 (BST)
  • Buncy supports BuncyTheFrog Talk GBP 04:16, 21 April 2006 (BST)
  • Looks nice and clean and the minimaps are a great touch. Would it be possible to use a space as the category sort key so the article appears as the first entry in that specific suburb category? --Lint 06:26, 21 April 2006 (BST)
    We could add a special character for suburbs entrys, like [[Category:Hollomstown|@Hollomstown]]. --People's Commissar Hagnat [cloned] [mod] 06:35, 21 April 2006 (BST)
  • Very much in favour of; I agree, the suburb location minimap is a wonderful tool. --Kenny Matthews 14:36, 21 April 2006 (BST)
  • I really like this one. --Brizth W! M T 19:53, 22 April 2006 (BST)
  • This is much better than the old map box. --halomarine34 16:30, 28 April 2006 (BST)
  • Awesome! --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 16:33, 28 April 2006 (BST)
  • Great work, thanks! --Tycho44 W! 17:17, 28 April 2006 (BST)

Make the Maps Match

Although the color-coded danger levels are a groovy addition to the wiki, often the the main map and the individual suburb 9-block squares don't match up. Example: Rhodenbank is green on the main map but not on its local 9-block map. On that same map, Pescodside and Rolt Heights are orange but on the main one they're yellow. And so forth.

Maybe the people who are updating these pages--and let me be clear, I praise their efforts and their contribution to the community--could make a point of changing the color-coding on both pages instead of just one or the other. --Bulgakov 01:12, 21 May 2006 (BST)

Since this isn't a suggestion changing the game, I'm not going to make a proper vote. Get this to some kind of policy or talk page. Now. --Cyberbob240CDF - U! 01:17, 21 May 2006 (BST)

He. Strange thing is, i already created a map to work this way. Its all a matter of switching to it and updating the 9-blocks danger levels to those who shows in the main suburb page. But i am a bit lazy to do that now. If someone wants to do it, the map is on the suburb talk page. --hagnat mod 01:29, 21 May 2006 (BST)

Since this isnt a suggestion for the page im moving this to the place it actually matters: The Suburbs talk page. --Grim s-Mod 01:34, 21 May 2006 (BST)

Moved here from the suggestions page, stripped of the suggestions template, and Bulgakov's signature manufactured from the history and information provided. --Grim s-Mod 01:41, 21 May 2006 (BST)
You can change the danger level for the 9 block square, in the panel on the right on the bottom there is a "Update this Suburb's Danger Level" just make sure you clear your chache on your browser and it will work. --DJSMITHCDF 02:46, 8 June 2006 (BST)

The Nerve!

Yagoton Bale Mall still remains a perfectly safe area as is the rest of Yagoton. As mentioned before, it has become a little too safe as most buildings are barricaded past very strongly, meaning people outside are finding it hard to get into buildings. Zombies are present, but singular or in very small groups of no more than 10. Break-ins are very rare, most zombies only randomly targeting resource buildings. Downgraded to Moderate. --Sabre1 13:41, 24 May 2006 (BST)

The Minions of the Apocalypse have been tearing though Yagoton for the past month. Bale Mall is broken into every day, and the Whatmore building is constantly under siege every hour of the day. In fact, not 30 minutes ago, the last breather in the Whatmore Building was killed. --JMac85 21:46, 25 May 2006 (BST)

Contested Suburbs

I've noticed that this map doesn't work well for contested suburbs. Havercroft, for instance is almost entirely in survivor hands, but the streets belong to the zombies! Right now, it's "Very Dangerous," and there are over 200 zombies outside Ackland Mall, but very few buildings are actually open or in zombie hands. What say we add a new color for contested suburbs and define "contested" as somewhere that's full of zombies but almost entirely barricaded and with significant casualties on both sides? --Ron Burgundy 23:11, 8 June 2006 (BST)

Message History

Previous Archive

from ??? to April, 16th, 2006.
Retrieved from "http://wiki.urbandead.com//index.php?title=Talk:Suburb/archives&oldid=299444"