Developing Suggestions

Developing Suggestions

This page is for presenting and discussing suggestions which have not yet been submitted and are still being worked on.

Further Discussion

Discussion concerning this page takes place here. Discussion concerning the suggestions system in general (including policies about it) takes place here.

Nothing on this page will be archived.

Please Read Before Posting

• Be sure to check The Frequently Suggested List and the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots before you post your idea. There you can read about many idea's that have been suggested already, which users should be aware of before posting what could be a dupe, or a duplicate of an existing suggestion. These include Machine Guns and Sniper Rifles. There users can also get a handle of what an appropriate suggestion looks like.
• Users should be aware that this is a talk page, where other users are free to use their own point of view, and are not required to be neutral. While voting is based off of the merit of the suggestion, opinions are freely allowed here.
• It is recommended that users spend some time familiarizing themselves with this page before posting their own suggestions.

How To Make a Suggestion

Format for Suggestions under development

Please use this template for discussion. Copy all the code in the box below, click [edit] to the right of the header "Suggestions", paste the copied text above the other suggestions, and replace the text shown here in red with the details of your suggestion.

===Suggestion===
{{suggestionNew
|suggest_time=~~~~
|suggest_type=Skill, balance change, improvement, etc.
|suggest_scope=Who or what it applies to.
|suggest_description=Full description. Check spelling and be descriptive.
|discussion=|}}
====Discussion (Suggestion Name)====
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Cycling Suggestions

Developing suggestions that appear to have been abandoned (i.e. two days or longer without any new edits) will be given a warning for deletion. If there are no new edits it will be deleted seven days following the last edit.

This page is prone to breaking when there are too many templates or the page is too long, so sometimes a suggestion still under strong discussion will be moved to the Overflow-page, where the discussion can continue between interested parties.

If you are adding a comment to a suggestion that has the deletion warning template please remove the {{SNRV|X}} at the top of the discussion section. This will show that there is active conversation again.

Please add new suggestions to the top of the list.

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Suggestions

Improve the Banks

Timestamp:	Nequa 23:24, 7 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Add to Bank.
Scope:	All people how enter a bank.
Description:	I belive banks need a improvement becuase of how usless they are. The only good thing I can think about them is becuase they are so useless no zombie would go near it, and it would make a good hiding place. But the problem is what good could a bank be in a place like Malton. The only iteam I could think about finding there would be a pistol and clip becuase of securtity guards. So if not iteams why not something else? What is a bank if not a big place to safly guard your valuables? Why not allow the bank to be more heavly barricaded or use the vault? This is still a rough idea, which is why I am talking here. Now, allow me to address two problems I can see with my idea. One is why you would even want to have a extra lelvel of barricades or a vault, the bank does not have anything. And the other being that you should not mess with the barricades, to those people look here [[1]]. and then go to "Max Cades Varies by Building Type" sujestion. As I said, this is still a rough idea and I would like inmput, and not just "this wont work so shut up".

Discussion (Bank improvment)

Don't banks go dark? If so why isn't that defensive buff enough?--Karek^maps?! 01:16, 8 September 2008 (BST)

I'm pretty sure the bank description says the vaults are already looted empty. --Aeon17x 01:24, 8 September 2008 (BST)

"The vault lies open, its contents either looted or transferred." thats what the text is. They make great forward bases and safe houses so they are fine as they are. Chaplain Drakon Macar 01:31, 8 September 2008 (BST)

I meant using the vaults as a defensive measure, any way banks are useless.Nequa 01:33, 8 September 2008 (BST)

They make great safehouses for PKers. --Aeon17x 01:46, 8 September 2008 (BST)

True, but that is really it. You dont get anything from the bank or find any purpose for it execpt from what you already said, I just want banks to contribute to Malton in a bigger way.Nequa 01:50, 8 September 2008 (BST)

The same can be said for wastelands. You think we should plant flowers in them? I'm all for multi-colored wastelands... pink is nice... --Aeon17x 02:05, 8 September 2008 (BST)

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Switch FAK search rates between Hospitals and Malls

Timestamp:	WanYao 14:24, 7 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	search rate adjustment for First Aid Kits.
Scope:	survivors
Description:	I can't find this in PR or Undecided, I looked. But if someone can find the dupe, please do. The suggestion: Reverse the search rates for First Aid Kits in Hospital and Malls, i.e. make it easier to find FAKs in Hospitals and harder in Malls. The rationale: Pretty self-explanatory, I think. Hospitals should be the easiest place to find/jury rig first aid kits. Not malls. This would also be a nerf to mall-centric play, which I don't think is a bad thing at all. But it's a highly logical nerf, and far from unbalanced or game-breaking. Extra details: As it is, you have about a 50% chance of finding a FAK in a drugstore. In a hospital, I'd guestimate it's about 20% (I might tally my stats and see... others' experiences would be useful, too). Perhaps an exact reversal isn't in order: say 25-30% in Malls, 40-45% in Hospitals, something like that.

Discussion (Switch FAKs search rates between Hospitals and Malls)

No to exact reversal, yes to your suggested percentages. That is because there are one hell of a lot of hospitals compared to mall squares. - User:Whitehouse 14:32, 7 September 2008 (BST)

We could apply the same logic to police departments and forts, in that they should have higher search rates for firearms and ammo there than malls. Not that I'm totally against your suggestion, but the way the game is designed it strikes me that Kevan intentionally made malls as the ultimate stronghold and as such they have the highest search rates for most items in the game. --Aeon17x 15:33, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Police Stations don't keep ammo lying around. It is actually a bad idea to have excessive weapons and ammo stored where you are holding prisoners. Wal-Mart has more weapons in the sporting section than my local police station. Police Depts. have armories and firing ranges to keep weapons. -- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 22:24, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Hospitals don't keep stockpiles of first aid kits, too (or at least here they don't). The fact that there aren't any ready-made FAKs and you have to build one in a hospital reflects that. And going by supply and demand the one which is filled up with all sorts of supplies would still be the malls, and that's why they have much higher search rates for everything than all other TRPs. --Aeon17x 01:28, 8 September 2008 (BST)

I agree with Wan Yuo, since it is a hospital of course you would be more likely to find a FAK there, and anyway Malls have alot of other stuff you can gain there.Nequa 16:10, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Uhm, it's "Yao", not "Yuo"... It's a lame old joke alias, but it's still my alias, and it means something... Anyhooo...

Cop shops are not armouries -- but gun stores in US malls practically are. So I don't really see a need to change that. You might disagree, but, c'est la vie. (And, yes, Malton is in the UK, but the city is a mix of the UK and US, it's not really one or the other in practice... so please don't go there... please.) Perhaps search rates in Fort Armouries need to be boosted, but this suggestion is not addressing that... And, yes, malls are supposed to be strongholds -- however, I think the 50% search rate for FAKs is absurd. Especially when it's so hard to find FAKs in Hospitals, by comparison. And, even if you nerfed search rates in Malls -- even hypothetically across the board -- they are still going to be "fortresses" by virtue of being "one-stop-shopping" places -- you can get everything you need at a mall other than syringes. That alone makes them very powerful... I, however, appreciate Whitehouse's comments about the fact that are more Hospitals than Malls, and the modified search rates ought to reflect that. --WanYao 16:41, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Then surgery becomes OMGMEGA-SUPER-GODLY. Right now Surgery pretty much only gives you a little more efficiency in hospitals than straight healing in malls. If it weren't for that I would support this, I don't think that this would change where people get FAKs from though which would mean it would just be a slight nerf to Malls and a big buff to Hospitals.--Karek^maps?! 17:44, 7 September 2008 (BST)

First of, sorry for mispelling your name Yao, and also you dont need a 50% chance for the hospital but maybe like 40%, or something that makes the hospitals be just as good as finding FAKs in the mall.Nequa 18:29, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Surgery.--Karek^maps?! 19:47, 7 September 2008 (BST)

I am well aware of what Surgery does. This is how likley you can find a FAK in a hospital and a mall drug store, from the wiki:Mall Drugstores (20%/34%), Hospitals (14%),. If they even made it 25 percent I would love it. Nequa 20:54, 7 September 2008 (BST)

I would agree with a small percentage increase in hospitals. But check for a dupe. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 21:19, 7 September 2008 (BST)

I'd support this as well. Malls need to be reworked a bit. The percentages are too high to warrant going any where else in the game for supply purposes. But I'd also support people who use the word "Glock" to describe their pistols have them blow up upon first use.--Janine 23:38, 7 September 2008 (BST)

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Bloodletting

Timestamp:	Galaxy125 02:03, 6 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	PKer buff.
Scope:	Survivors. PKers, mostly.
Description:	Update revivification syringes to allow for self-targeting. If used on yourself while infected, it becomes a "virus syringe," essentially transforming the item within your inventory. "Virus syringes" cannot be found or made except by infected individuals using revivification syringes on themselves. Like a normal syringe, they have a 2% encumbrance. If used on a survivor, there's an X percent chance that this new "virus syringe" will deal 1 HP damage to the survivor and infect the survivor, and a 100-X percent chance that the virus syringe will do nothing. X is the current HP of the PKer. "Virus syringes" do nothing against zombies. As it is highly corrosive to glass, the virus will eat through the syringe in a matter of hours. Therefore, "virus syringes" are removed from an inventory after 6 hours of existing. ...Because bioterrorism is an inherent part of the genre, and because it might entertain some PKers (and thus keep them from actual killing). Yes, the central idea is that the syringe is emptied outside your body, then you draw out your own blood, which contains the infection.

Discussion (Bloodletting)

I really wish I could be "constructive"... but this is just too retarded to comment on. Would you like some spam with that cheese, sir? --WanYao 02:11, 6 September 2008 (BST)

No, sir, nor did I want that frosty. "Retarded" is happily synonymous with "belated," so I'll assume you mean this suggestion is just a little behind its time. Speaking of which, some old-fashioned Lincoln logs might help with your construction problem. Spend a few hours with those and let your dad back on his computer, okay? -- Galaxy125 04:14, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Survivor infecting other survivors is a dupe, I'm fairly sure. It would be more greify than tactically useful for a PKer / death cultist, which is why (iirc) it wasn't worth keeping. Also, if you want to infect somebody, I fancy that axe you've been splitting infected zombie skulls (or the knife you just pulled from the guts of an infected survivor) would do the job rather as well as a syringe. So if infections COULD be spread that way, pretty much every sharp weapon in Malton would spread them.  Swiers 04:23, 6 September 2008 (BST) edit- also, if the infection were so corrosive, every blood stained weapon or piece f clothing in the city would crumble to dust.  Swiers 21:44, 7 September 2008 (BST)

It is a dupe. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:05, 6 September 2008 (BST)

I'd been considering hydrofluoric acid for that, which wouldn't damage polyester clothes, although I am not a chemist. And blood-stained weapons tend to degrade in real life, hence the NRA's preoccupation with gun cleaning. That aside, do you think (at least) that the X% likelihood is an interesting mechanic that might be able to contribute to gameplay in some other fashion?-- Galaxy125 00:11, 8 September 2008 (BST)

PKing may be part of the game, but it does NOT need any emphasis. The game is, primarily, about survivors and zombies fighting each other with some PKing thrown in, NOT about PKing with some zombies thrown in.--Pesatyel 07:35, 6 September 2008 (BST)

I must agree with Pesatyel, this game is mainly about the Living VS Undead... with the abnormal ones mixing it up to make it more interesting (just like in reality). Emphasizing PKing just doesn't fit in well with me (although I really should "get over the fucking factional us-vs.-them bullshit" to quote Wanyao). --Kamikazie-Bunny 17:05, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Ehh, when I PK, I prefer "Bang. BANG BANG." And the kill is done. The idea would be something I would never use, and as Swiers stated, it's more useful for greifers then PKers like me.-- Adward  18:08, 6 September 2008 (BST)

K-B, I was referring to your comments, somewhere, which alluded to "pro-zombies" and "pro-survivors" as these inimical factions at each others' throats. That's an illusion, and a destructive one at that: most players play both sides, even if some do tend to focus more on one than the other... And most people judge suggestions on the basis of merit, not simply whether they help their "side". For example, this suggestion would be a giant-sized buff for my death cultists -- but that doesn't mean I support it... because it's just a griefing tool, and little more. --WanYao 18:35, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Does it grief more than, for instance, one of your death cultists outright killing someone? PKing is griefing, because survivors only ever want to be killed if they're feeding the hungry n00b zed masses. Sure, I can see survivors getting annoyed by being infected by a PKer, but it would be less aggravating than having to spend AP hunting a revive (which costs more AP than a FAK). Thank you for your constructive criticism. -- Galaxy125 23:57, 7 September 2008 (BST)

NEEDLE SHARING IS NEVER SAFE! THIS SUGGESTION SPREADS HEPATITIS Z! Not to mention it's stupid as fuck and so out of genre gameplay here. -- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 23:48, 6 September 2008 (BST)

If you consider "fuck" stupid, does that means I can apply for a timeshare with your girlfriend? Although, for reference, I invite you to check out how the Fantastic Four were infected in Marvel Zombies. Or talk to me on my talk page and I'll happily spoil it for you.-- Galaxy125 23:57, 7 September 2008 (BST)

I has plastic syringes. Gawd. Oh, I forgot the part were I wake up when you starting moving and poking me, and I kick your ass.. _■^■ 00:02, 7 September 2008 (BST)

What about the part where zombies you are poking with a syringe do NOT wake up and kick... er, EAT your ass?  Swiers 21:44, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Recharging AP != sleeping. You might as well object to zombies not reacting to a knife or a shotgun, or humans not reacting to being clawed. It's how the game works. We've been over this before. -- Galaxy125 23:50, 7 September 2008 (BST)

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Latent Infection

Timestamp:	Blake Firedancer T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T. 01:14, 6 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Skill.
Scope:	Zombies, their victims.
Description:	After countless days of fending off the zombies, Malton's best and brightest have discovered an entirely new strain of the virus that the zombies have been using to infect their victims. Called the Sleeper strain, it typically has an incubation period of 6 hours before it becomes active, rapidly spreading through the victim's circulatory system, degrading living tissue at an alarming speed. The incubation period can be extended if the victim remains motionless, however. This new strain has proven to be almost completely immune to all forms of medicine when it is in its incubation period, however the virus seems to be easier to eradicate once it has 'awakened'. It can still resist medicine half of the time, however with surgery the virus can be always removed. Unfortunately, due to it's long incubation period, carriers of the virus often are not aware of when they have become infected until the virus begins to attack them. However, if the victim then gets bitten by a zombie with the more common strain of the virus, the Sleeper strain acts like an antibody, preventing the more common strain from taking hold. New skill: Latent Infection Subskill of: Infection Abilities: Takes 6 hours to kick in. Causes 2 damage per AP. Does not stack with standard Infection. 5% chance to be cured of it if FAK'd during incubation period. 50% chance to be cured of it if FAK'd when 'awakened'. 100% chance to be cured of it if FAK'd by 'Surgery' in powered hospital. Kicks in upon first movement after 6 hour incubation period. Victim not told of infection until it 'awakens'.

Discussion (Latent Infection)

in all this time have you ever even read the frequently suggested and D&DN pages? this is a dupey infection buff, the likes of which we've seen a bazillion times, and it has nothing special or redeeming about it except for a vry pointless 6 hour delay. such a delay is a) out of genre game-mechanically because time is abstract in UD b) griefs newbies c) griefs everyone who logs in only once a day d) it's overpowered -- zombies kill best by killing, and where they are weak, deal with that, instead.

i'm also sure someone will be less lazy and find about 30 dupes for this. please... GIVE IT UP ALREADY, blake. go design your own game, print up the rules, get together with some friends over dice and doritos. and give us a break. --WanYao 01:38, 6 September 2008 (BST)

It's... Urghh, it just over complicates a part of the game which doesn't need it, and is a huge buff to zombies. I'm a zombie player, but I don't like things like this. Just do what WanYao said and read the Frequently Suggested and the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots. Seriously, just commit them to memory.-- Adward  18:03, 6 September 2008 (BST)

I'd vote keep. And ignore the Hive Mind Kool-Aid Drinkers, Blake. The D&DN page is for wimps.--Zombie Lord 13:38, 7 September 2008 (BST)

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Headshot Ignores Ankle Grab

Timestamp:	Deyo 19:50, 5 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Balance Change
Scope:	Zombies with Ankle Grab
Description:	The cost to stand up after a Headshot is 15AP, whether or not the target has the Ankle Grab skill. This suggestion is somewhat slanted toward a Monroeville survivor's perspective. In Malton, the survivor's best chance for survival is to find a location which zombies are not currently massing to attack. The only time attacking is a viable option is when zombies are already inside a strategic building, and the survivor wants to repair the structure. Even Trenchcoaters know that when the zeds open the doors, it's time to run. In Monroeville, there is never a time when attacking is the best choice. If zombies are near, the survivor runs or the survivor dies. Attacking, even with a massive numeric advantage, is ultimately suicide. Currently, a Headshot costs a zombie 6AP, or 15AP if it doesn't have the Ankle Grab skill. To kill a 50HP unarmored zombie costs a minimum of 8AP: Three to find three shotguns loaded with five shells total, and five to bring down the zombie. A more typical number would be 24 -- 6 to find a pistol and two clips, and 18 to fire the pistol at the zombie 16 times, reloading twice, with a 65% hit rate. This means that by purchasing four skills, with seven additional skills required to reach level ten, a survivor can spend 24 AP to take 6AP from a zombie who has purchased two skills. If the AP cost to stand up from a Headshot were 15 regardless of the Ankle Grab skill, the ratio would go from 4:1 to almost 3:2, still strongly favoring the zombie, but making offense a viable tactic in Malton. In Monroeville, the few who remain might actually come out and play once in a while, instead of running like hell when one zombie gets within a block.

Discussion (Headshot Ignores Ankle Grab)

Sure. I just fear its too late. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 19:59, 5 September 2008 (BST)

You understand nothing of this game. The AP balance on barricades is 4-1 in favour of survivors at best. Add to that the fact that it takes 35-40 AP for a zombie to kill a survivor, only for the victim to get a revive for 10 AP and the cost of the syringe search. Then factor in that any survivor who isn't killed straight away can be saved with a simple FAK. I could go on and on about this, but in reality I said all that was needed in the first sentence. And seriously people, stop whining about fucking Monroeville. It's a temporary city which is going to be shut down, which makes it entirely irrelevant when discussing the mechanics of Urban Dead as a game. --Papa Moloch 20:04, 5 September 2008 (BST)

"and the cost of the syringe search". I love how you abstract away about 10-15 APs and call it "balanced". Deyo 04:54, 7 September 2008 (BST)

And that only turns out to 20-25 AP, even if you factor in the syringe search. we could keep on discussing the maths of this, but Grim did it for us a few months back: read his rant on the revive imbalance. --Aeon17x 05:14, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Total Zombie AP spent (Including recovering from kills by Humans, thank you for padding your numbers): 483. Total Human AP spent: 322. Ratio: 3/2, compared to 4/1 for survivors headshotting zombies. Zombies win, again, by whining louder than the humans. I thought you were supposed to moan. In any event, thank you for showing us the math that proves that zombies have a massive combat AP advantage. Deyo 17:30, 7 September 2008 (BST)

No dude. Just no. Monroeville is freaking dead anyway.--Zombie Lord 20:16, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Says the Zombie Lord... I actually had a nice killing spree a couple of weeks back, 5 survivors in 6 days...

It would be nice if we waited till there was one survivor, gave him a Tommy_Gun, ammo and every zombie his location to see how long he would last... --Kamikazie-Bunny 21:18, 5 September 2008 (BST)

:D I'm not sure if he means it as a Monroeville only thing or not, which would be fine with me if it was just contained to that city and not Malton. Seems like Kevan just wanted to kill it off anyway with those last changes to Monroeville. But yeah, the Tommy Gun goes the the last Monroeville Survivor! Would be a cool prize anyway :) --Zombie Lord 21:30, 5 September 2008 (BST)

The Tommy Gun is a seasonal weapon, found around 31st October/1st November. They'll have to survive til then and search really hard...--Bob Fortune ^RR 00:51, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Kamakazie Bunny, get over the fucking factional us-vs.-them bullshit, it's tired as all hell. In any event, as much as he is usually an idiot, zombie lord is correct this time. And Moloch hit it on the head even more squarely. Don't fucking nerf Ankle Grab. Period. Even in Moronville. --WanYao 01:46, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Dupe. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 22:36, 5 September 2008 (BST)

How about "Remove Headshot" then? Has that been suggested? It's currently a waste of 100 XP. Deyo 04:54, 7 September 2008 (BST)

You might have better luck if you suggest that headshot DOESN'T affect those without Ankle Grab.--Pesatyel 07:37, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Also a dupe. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:08, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Balance Change HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA IMA GONNA RAEP YUO OF UR AP AND CALL IT BALANCED! Fuck off, Dago. You can't possibly justify taking away over 1/5th of the AP of just one class. Zombies can't do it to survivors in any amount and you want to increase it? Fucking play as a zombie for a year before you suggest anything that affects zombies. -- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 23:59, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Yanking a live survivor from a mall for 2/5 the AP cost of dumping a dead body from a fort is balanced, then? I don't see you railing against that. Oh, but feel free to turn my username into a racial slur if you can't think of any good reason to reject the suggestion. Deyo 04:54, 7 September 2008 (BST)

We've already posted enough reasons why it's a crap idea. Feel free to post it though, because even if it gets passed, Kevan won't touch it. --Papa Moloch 05:25, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Actually it is when you consider that it's not a bargain and it's an additional 4 AP per kill that will be payed regularly. All Feeding Drag ever does is transfer AP cost from the individual to the horde, you know, that central play mechanic that zombies are forced to deal with. This would just make it so that all zombies always lose nearly half the AP they get a day, that's not balanced. You're also proposing buffing what is the only skill in the game that is considered to exist for the sole purpose of pissing players off and not balance.--Karek^maps?! 17:41, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Im not going to argue the game balance here. What i am going to say is that you dont make a game more balanced by making it less fun. Taking away 15 zombie ap a day makes the game much less fun for zombies, which will drive them away. Given how many of them are hanging onto the game out of habit rather than out of any sense of enjoyment, i dont think making playing a zombie feel like pulling teeth is the solution to any balance problem, real or imagined. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 18:37, 7 September 2008 (BST)

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Bargain Hunting Change

Timestamp:	Zombie Lord 18:07, 5 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Improvement.
Scope:	Resource Buildings.
Description:	First, some buildings would get a flat bonus to search: Malls, Junkyards, and Libraries. Malls +10% Chance for a successful search. Junkyard +10% Chance for a successful search. Library Automatic success. Second, other buildings would get a new button. A player with Bargain Hunting would see both "Search the Building" AND the New Button. A regular search is the same as always. Clicking the New Button would work like this: Hospital New Button: "Search for FAK". +25% to find a FAK. Police Station New Button: "Search for Guns and Ammo". +25% to find a Pistol, Shotgun, Shotgun Shell, or Pistol Clip. Factory New Button: "Search for Portable Generator". +25% to find a Portable Generator. Auto Repair New Button: "Search for Toolbox". +25% to find a Toolbox. Fire Station New Button: "Search for Flare Gun". +25% to find a Flare Gun. Arms New Button: "Search for Beer". +25% to find a Beer. School New Button: "Search for Spray Can". +25% to find a Spray Can. Warehouse New Button: "Search for Fuel Can". +25% to find a Fuel Can. This idea is to make the other resource building more important, and make the Mall less the God of all Buildings.

Discussion (Bargain Hunting Change)

Auto repair toolbox, warehouse fuel can? Random.

I dont like it for the following reason. Its actually 2 buffs. 1. You only search for what you want. 2 you are much more likely to find it. I also dont see a realistic justification (other than junkyards and libraries which i feel is fine).--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:11, 5 September 2008 (BST)

I figured your were more likely to find a Toolbox in an Auto Repair, but find Fuel stockpiled in Warehouses. Basically I'm aiming for the other buildings being important instead of the Mall being the best place to find pretty much anything, which sort of makes Hospitals and PD's kinda lame. Plus with the best places to find stuff spread out instead of being all in one spot, it would make Malls less of a Fortress you almost never need to leave, except to find Fuel. Survivors would need to keep their other buildings going to keep the "best search rate" spots open and usable. The two most important FAKS and Guns/Ammo already have a "you get exactly what you want" thing going in the Mall anyway.--Zombie Lord 18:16, 5 September 2008 (BST)

"Bargain Hunting" implies knowledge specific to shopping: it's a consumer skill. Finding things in libraries, police stations, hospitals, and junkyards seems unrelated. I agree with Ross, this seems a bit overpowering. --Zhani 18:20, 5 September 2008 (BST)

It also worries me that you appear to have forgotten that survivors occasionally need needles. Wheres the search necrotech button? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:22, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Dude, Survivors get enough needles already. :P --Zombie Lord 18:25, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Whilst I do agree with the idea of removing the focus from malls I do not agree with your choices I would imagine:

Toolbox for factories (working on/with machinery),

Fuel cans for auto repairs (cars need fuel),

Generators for factories (because they don't fit anywhere else and the others seem more plausible in their locations) although power stations and hardware stores would make sense but that takes you back to malls...

Also what about necrotechs and radios? whilst it is true you don't have to include everything, including beer and ignoring more important resources and buildings just doesn't agree with me. --Kamikazie-Bunny 18:23, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Hey its all open to change. Thats kinda why I put this up here. Those NecroTechs though are already nasty enough. But moving the items around is cool. How about Fuel in Auto Repairs and Portable Generators in Warehouses. Like to keep it spread out as much as possible. Just leave the Toolboxes out since they are a one shot item anyway? And factories have both fuel and PG's so, maybe being a cenral fuel/PG resource is good enough for them.--Zombie Lord 18:30, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Personally id prefer it if it was the other way round. The one item choices (Knifes,toolboxes, dna extractors,radio transmitters,) were those items that could be found more easily. Then buildings other than malls would be the best place to find specific items.--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:34, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Yeah, but you only need to find them once. Makes the other resources not so important again. Making it the recycle items makes them always useful to have up and running. Hmm, maybe just a flat +25% to find anything in the bottom 8 buildings would be better, then you'd have to wade through the "crap" like newspapers and the like and it would be less powerful. The Mall would still be a good bonus then with its 'FAK only" Drugstore and "Guns & Ammo only" Gun Store, which is kinda ugly combined with the current +25%, but might be more balances with 10%, but having the other buildings being the "best search spots".--Zombie Lord 18:48, 5 September 2008 (BST)

I think 25% might be a bit too much, 15% seems more reasonable, searching for something specific should give you more than searching for something in general but not too much more. I actually like the specific buildings for specific resources because it means your more likely to find what your looking for but the amount of buildings of each type in each suburb makes a big difference when the zombies start to move in and you don't want to move out! This way it emphasizes that point. Although I do see Rosslessness's point, items each person only needs one of would be more common than ones which people would be using up. --Kamikazie-Bunny 18:57, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Yeah, the % could always be messed with. I think this would make other suburbs more attractive too though, like the ones that are far away from Malls, but maybe they have some insane number of PD's or Hospitals so they would become like "Centers of Healing, or "Ammo Dump Central". I guess we could throw Forts into the +10% category same as Malls. Would maybe shake up the population distribution a bit.--Zombie Lord 19:07, 5 September 2008 (BST)

I think you're right though. Cause with this there would be a lot a new place opened up that you could search good. Some burbs have like 6 Hospitals/PD's or more and that would be a lot of places. Maybe 10% for Malls, but 15% or 20% for the Hospitals/PD's and the others to balance out the fact that some places have crazy numbers of these buildings all lumped together. I dont know who the city planners where but sometime having 3 or 4 PD like all next to each other or a block away from each other is just nuts. :D--Zombie Lord 19:32, 5 September 2008 (BST)

From a logical point of view yeah, Ross is right. But from a game balance view, I think "only need one" items should be not easier to find. Then Survivors could not just thrown down a toolbox to free up weight, confident that they could just snag another real easy with Bargain Hunting when they need one. It's a harder to weight choice as it is now. But making it the recycle items that are easier to find makes keeping those buildings up and running a much more important part of keeping your burb running smooth. I dunno, I'm arguing from a "Mall Suburb viewpoint" though too. This might make non-Mall suburbs even more powerful, but maybe in a balanced way, so that Malls suburbs and non Mall suburbs are not so lop-sided in their "resource gathering power".--Zombie Lord 19:23, 5 September 2008 (BST)

I don't even need to read the commentary. 'Sides, mostly seems to be Zombie Lord's usual obnoxious arguing with everyone...

The skinny: survivors don't need a search rate buff, their %ages are pretty fucking good already, especially in malls. I do concede that the randomness of searching, and all the junk you get in searches, contributes to the "Boring boring boring, Sidney!" syndrome ... However, giving survivors a search buff AND allowing them look for exactly what they want?? The "Zombie Lord" (whom I am still convinced is just some DA or TZH trenchcoater in disguise) proposing an utterly broken game mechanic is no surprise -- but an overpowered, spam-o-licious survivor buff, now that's a little shocking. --WanYao 01:54, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Sex is boring, Sidney-- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 00:05, 7 September 2008 (BST)

My bad. For a change, Zombie Lord is being kind of, like, normal... However, this is still not a good idea. I am all for nerfing mall-centric play, but this is not the way to go about it. I still stand my my reasoning above. And, as it stands, Malls are not the best place to find generators and a few other items. And syringes and fuel can't be found in malls at all... But what is absurd is the 50% or so find rate for FAKs! Hospitals should be the best place for FAKs, and Malls only so-so. THAT needs to be changed... --WanYao 02:21, 6 September 2008 (BST)

The Warehouse, Factory, Hospital, Fire Station, Toolbox, and Police Station buffs are all way too high. That and combined it's far too many benefits from one single 100xp skill.--Karek^maps?! 12:55, 6 September 2008 (BST)

I figured with the Mall search bonus lowered and that Survivors would need to defend more than the Fortress Malls to keep their best search spots open would counter the high bonus for searches in the new buildings. Going to come up with a version 2 with changes for all these comments though soon.--Zombie Lord 13:27, 7 September 2008 (BST)

I really think switching FAK search rates -- so that Hospitals are the best place to find them -- would be sufficient to nerf mall-centric play in a fair, balanced and very logical way. the rest imo isn't needed. --WanYao 14:10, 7 September 2008 (BST)

The bonus is currently so high that some 1 in 10 items would get boosted to 1 in 3, some 1 in 5 items would get boosted to 1 in 2, and some 1 in 3 items would get boosted to 1 in ~1.2. I understand the intent but 25% really is a very significant amount, so significant you'd be removing almost all failure chance for things like FAKs.--Karek^maps?! 17:48, 7 September 2008 (BST)

---

Riot Shield

Timestamp:	Kamikazie-Bunny 16:39, 5 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Item
Scope:	All Players
Description:	Locations: Armouries (2%), Police Stations (2%), Junkyards (1%?) Encumbrance: 16% - Grants a 10% (5% in dark buildings) chance to deflect any attack that deals less than 5 damage (it does not reduce the chance to hit, only those which would normally hit). Having a Riot Shield in your inventory automatically means that you are using it; no action is required to activate it. Zombies may use and benefit from Riot Shields. Using multiple Riot Shields has no additional effect; having two or more in your inventory will not give any further protection. - They may also be used as an improvised weapon with the following stats: Damage: 1 point Base Accuracy: 10%

Discussion (Riot Shield)

Whilst many zombies will instantly think no, they should be aware that they can benefit from the Riot Shield (although rotters will have a harder time getting them but that applies to any cross-class skill/item from the humans). Also the zombie populace should be aware that a Riot shield is the equivalent of 8 clips/shells/Faks/Syringes that can be used against their cause. Survivors now have an active defence against the hordes (in my opinion barricades do not count as they do not directly protect the player or go with them on their journeys).
Things I'm unsure of:

Encumbrance

Chance to deflect

Findable in museums (Medieval / war exhibitions)

Zombies with a reduced protection chance (as they are more sluggish)

Flavour text for deflected attacks!

--Kamikazie-Bunny 16:48, 5 September 2008 (BST)

You fire at target zombie for 10 damage, but it deflects off their riot shield. They are unharmed --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:05, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Whilst I do agree with the flavour text the shot gun does not deal less than 5 damage. --Kamikazie-Bunny 18:13, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Balls. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:23, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Hi Kamikazie, this is an interesting idea. Given that zombies can't use melee weapons, it seems odd they might continue to use (and effectively position) a riot shield. Additionally, it seems it would get in the way of typical zombie attacks: grabbing, holding, biting. I don't want to seem like I'm favoring survivors, but this, like all other objects, seems it should be survivor-specific. Would players be able to use a shotgun while holding one? Shields of any kind make sense, especially in close-range combat. I'd see the value in making it "equippable" rather than simply automatically active if in inventory. --Zhani 18:18, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Ummm... zombies can use melee weapons, although it would get in the way of their normal attacks I don't want to hinder them or make this one sided although realism would want it so. Zombies are people to! Interfering with other functions is something else I disagree with. --Kamikazie-Bunny 18:31, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Hordes are the exception, not the rule. Lets see, a maxed zombie would traditionally score a total of 29 hits in 50 swings. Now, if 10% of those hits are negated, it goes down to 26. Given that the majority of zombies are not horde zombies, and that zombies have a seriously hard time getting past little things you call barricades (Which already are your defenses, not to mention your mobility, which is another, chronically underused one), this puts a serious dent in zombie ability across the board for the sake of defending yourself from the exception to the rule based on a flase assumption of defenselessness. Go away and think things through before you return to plague this page with your stupidity again. The description as written has this as a pure zombie nerf, they cant even use it, ebcause regardless of flaks, a pistol hits for five damage at first, with one subsequently negated, thus pistols will still go through. Given humans use firearms almost exclusively, becauuse axes and improvised weapons suck, they will most often suffer no penalty against a zombie with such a device. Zombies have no 5+ damage attacks. This is one sided zombie rape. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 18:24, 5 September 2008 (BST)

although I hardly ever agree with grims choice of words, the fact that flare guns and shotguns arent nerfed but all zed attacks are is a fair point. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:29, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Sorry if you misunderstood when I used the word horde, I used it to describe the zombies populace as a whole, not in a specific location. The pistol glitch is something which I must admit I did not anticipate and overlooked, thanks for pointing that out. The rest just seems negative for the sake of zombie-jeebus. Whilst this does primarily affect zombie attacks it also affects all survivor melee attacks, you say that survivors depend on guns because everything else sucks, I don't think you need reminding that the Jacket only benefits zombies and PK/DC victims (which their very actions benefit zombies). Zombies have no fear of death and any defence boosts through items come at no cost, survivors have to balance their inventory for survival/defense and the retaking of ruins. If you feel that 26 instead of 29 hits is too many feel free to suggest a change to the values. This is a discussion for whittling out 'stupid' ideas not for insulting them (which I consider pointless). --Kamikazie-Bunny 18:47, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Whilst many zombies will instantly think no, they should be aware that they can benefit from the Riot Shield ... Can, but won't. The vast majority of the damage zombies take s from guns, and this also provides no protection vs combat revives. HtH combat damage trails a distant third behind those in terms of impact on zombies. So really, this IS a pure zombie nerf.  Swiers 19:08, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Any proposes for a fix? Reducing deflection to 5% (that sounds so geekish). Lowering the limit to Less than 4 (which would account for the gun-bug and allow zombies still to get in their max claws) or would that be seen to be nerfing infection/bite/newbies/survivor melee? I know you might think this is the wrong school of thought but I feel there needs to be some active defence from zombies (running away is not defending) and barricades can't be taken with you, but due to the limited amount of high-powered zombie attacks any thing is essentially a nerf. --Kamikazie-Bunny 19:23, 5 September 2008 (BST)

After re-reading over everyone's comments I feel that the majority of people would probably be ok with this suggestion if it was to affect ALL attacks regardless of damage... however I am concerned about it stacking with flak jackets to nerf firearms but if you lot are ok with it then I have no objections.... opinions please? --Kamikazie-Bunny 21:03, 5 September 2008 (BST)

I think it's a neat idea, just not sure if its passable. Maybe if the Shield had a chance to be broken, or taken away by zombies? For every "deflection" there is a 10% chance the shield breaks as well? Maybe a zombie that gets a Tangling Grasp has a 10% chance to wrench the shield away and toss it aside for each attack it makes while it maintains the Grasp?--Zombie Lord 21:25, 5 September 2008 (BST)

This fails flavour as it implies active usage to gain its benefit, you must move the shield to cover the attack. A flak jacket is passive, it protects your torso regardless. In short, this would (or rather should) be useless while you are asleep...which for most UD characters is 23 hours and 50 minutes of each day.

Also it's a nasty zombie nerf. All zombie attacks are less than 5 damage, meaning all survivors would get a 10% chance to avoid every single zombie attack in the game. This suggestion will discourage zombie play and turn Malton into Monroeville after the first quarantine, tag with PKers. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 22:42, 5 September 2008 (BST)

"After re-reading over everyone's comments I feel that the majority of people would probably be ok with this..." We are not okay with this idea. It's awful. It's nothing but a horrible zombie nerf, and no changes are going to save it. Riot shields do not protect against firearms. Period. Any attempt to make them do so is just stupidity. But if riot shields work against melee attacks only, then you are nerfing an already underdog ability -- for both zambahz and survivors. Just drop it, it sucks and it can't be fixed. Also, Izzy, you've failed in your Dupe-meister duties, this is in there somewhere, I know it ;) And, Zhani, once again you demonstrated why you should stay away from making suggestions: please wait until you actually know the game, thanks. --WanYao 02:01, 6 September 2008 (BST)

As far as I understood from the comments people were making, the two major complaints were that it did not affect guns and that it affected zombie attacks. Including the ability to affect guns as well (which you conveniently failed to include in your quote) was the change that some people may approve of, as for affecting zombie attacks that kinda goes with the idea of a riot shield. "Riot shields do not protect against firearms" it may upset you to know that some do, although if you were arguing for true realism I think the zombies need to go... In defence of Izzy failing to dupe I could only find 2 similar suggestions, both from 2005 and both with completely different mechanics if it is that big an issue to dupe it go put in the effort and do it yourself. As for Zhani, he's learning don't try shoot him down because he's trying to be involved. --Kamikazie-Bunny 16:48, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Next person to shorten my name gets Jihad declared against them.

Wan; what he said about dupes :p

Bunny; would you care to comment on the point I made about active usage? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:00, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Falling asleep from exhaustion is a good reason why your character runs out of AP, it only takes 30min before you can 'wake up'. Whilst I do agree that a player would have to actively use it to defend themselves, the idea that I can hit someone who is asleep repeatedly with a fire axe and with such poor accuracy doesn't make sense (especially considering they don't wake up), I actually assume all players are awake and attempting to defend themselves if attacked which is why hit accuracy is not too high. --Kamikazie-Bunny 21:48, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Wait wut? How do zombies benefit from something that will only effect them and low level survivors? Last I heard pistols and shotguns did >= 5 damage, Claws and bites did <= 4.--Karek^maps?! 13:00, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Zombies would gain more defence from melee weapons, however it has now been changed to include pistols and shotguns. --Kamikazie-Bunny 17:12, 6 September 2008 (BST)

It just doesn't seem right. It destroys all zombie attack, survivor players could get them easier then zombie players... Even if Shotguns no longer worked, that would create an atmosphere where it would be CRing only.-- Adward  17:56, 6 September 2008 (BST)

How would this new version work in dark buildings? And Also, I still don't like it for the same reason why I think halving in dark buildings was a horrendous idea, 10% from 50% is a lot more significant than 10% from 65%, especially with the RNG the way it is But if you're going to go on with it might as well answer all questions that might come up.--Karek^maps?! 19:51, 6 September 2008 (BST)

As the Riot shield only affects the attacks that hit the player, the environment which the attack is performed in should have make no difference but since the user is making an effort, the same penalty as attacks receive should logically apply. (Chance of success halved in dark buildings added to suggestion) Thanks for that, the more holes you guys help me fill the better. --Kamikazie-Bunny 22:02, 6 September 2008 (BST)

I like it. Rather logical especially when considering that several suburbs were just bad neighborhoods (Even BEFORE the zombies!). I think that his would be a bit more efficient if you kept it as a melee reducing item, the hand to hand flak jacket in other words, say knock off 1-2 Damage per non-firearm attacks. Take it to that level and THEN I'll probably vote a keep on this. Chaplain Drakon Macar 19:33, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Yes, I'm sure new players will appreciate 0-1 damage at 25% to hit.--Karek^maps?! 19:54, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Well the zombies are getting Uber Buffs. Survivors have always been a bit better than the zombies at base level. I think that just the 1 Reduced Damage is sufficient at say...30% but if we want to get technical with this option lets say Hand to Hand Combat skill gives the 15% bonus to this so base is 15% chance to block 1 damage and then with HtH skill 30% chance to block 1 damage and we drop that improvised attack method because it's going to be the same as a punch. Now for the zombies think of Virgour Mortis as a +10% Chance to block 1 Damage. So again, 15% base and with Vigour Mortis a nice little 25% because Zeds aren't quick enough to keep up with the survivors. It is a bit sketchy but I am going to support this method over sitting around fiddling with percentages. Chaplain Drakon Macar 20:02, 6 September 2008 (BST)

I would like for this to apply exclusive to melee weapons, but that would mean ALL zombie attacks and not the attacks used by high-level survivors which was a problem. I'm also unsure if the game distinguishes between damage types, if it does great, if not, going on damage inflicted presents a problem when pistols are reduced by flak jackets. The idea to reduce damage instead of deflecting it completely is possible, however it would just end up as 'a flak for melee attacks' different mechanics for each one helps to keep them unique but if people prefer that option let me know. The skills bit does have merits but I was hoping it would be independent of the skill tree although if people want it to upgrade as you buy skills your way is certainly an excellent way to do it, especially the uniqueness between the live/dead. --Kamikazie-Bunny 22:18, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Consider the flak jacket. -1 point for firearms, hand to hand attacks still go through. As for the zombies...well survivors run out of ammunition every now and again, even in the sieges. To combine this item with hand to hand combat training is the most logical approach based off of common sense and lightens the work load if Kevan likes this. Like you stated, zombies and survivors can both hold them, lets apply our minds and think about how well a zombie would be able to block a hit. When you think of next to never apply this big piece of reinforced fiberglass and then you get your answer here. Chaplain Drakon Macar 03:53, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Zombies holding riot shields? I'd love to have some of that crack you're on. --Aeon17x 04:08, 7 September 2008 (BST) Dude the odd thing is that it is not crack! It's Jello powder! Chaplain Drakon Macar 04:23, 7 September 2008 (BST)

Zombies hold and use all sorts of items... Anyway, this idea is just awful and can't be saved, please give it up. All it does in any form is act as a zombie/PK nerf. Period. Drop it. There is NO NEED for this, and it doesn't improve the game, make it more interesting, or offer a solution to a problem. It's just... dumb. --WanYao 07:44, 7 September 2008 (BST)

---

No More Walking Armories: Less weapons, more ammo.

Timestamp:	Zhani 21:39, 3 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Change to firearm usage
Scope:	Survivors, firearms.
Description:	Add Equipped Weapon feature, adjust weapon balance numbers to encourage reloading over trenchcoatism. See below for details.

As things stand, players in Malton become walking armories, with as many loaded pistols and shotguns strapped to their bodies as they can carry. Essentially, everyone is a trenchcoater by default. This is due to how firearms currently work and their game statistics. Players are rewarded for carrying multiple loaded firearms, and there's little penalty for doing so. Guns have very little encumbrance relative to their ammunition, and there's no cost at all to moving on to your next loaded weapon. I think this is unbelievable and out of genre.

My proposal is to add a new game feature and tweak weapon encumbrance, find rates, and damage in order to encourage the carrying and use of only primary weapons, with plenty of ammo for those weapons.

1. Equipped Weapon The game supports selecting items that are "worn"; however, this is only used for clothing and flavor at the moment. With this addition, survivor players select any weapon in their inventory to be equipped.

• Above "Inventory (click to use):" there is "Weapon (select):". There will be a new drop-down list in this section: Equip [Weapon List] as weapon. This lets the player choose any existing weapon in their inventory, or an improvised weapon like a fuel can or crowbar.
• Equipping a weapon costs 2 AP. This represents getting it out of your backpack/belt and having it ready for combat. The AP cost of switching weapons provides an incentive to reload over switching between a stocked series of weapons.
• You can only attack with your equipped weapon. The "attack player" option no longer offers multiple weapons as a choice, but instead lists your equipped weapon: Attack [Joe Zombie] with pistol. If no weapon is equipped, all attacks are punches.
• Once a weapon is equipped, the "Weapon:" section no longer displays "(select)", and the selected weapon is displayed there, instead of in the inventory section. Below that, the weapon-selection control remains available to select another weapon.
• Clicking ammo to reload defaults to reloading the equipped weapon if it is unloaded. Clicking the equipped weapon removes it. Clicking a weapon that does not have a dual usage (most of them) will equip them as well (this is necessary so you can still click fuel cans to use them on generators, fire flare guns, etc.)
• Upon dying, the equipped weapon is removed and remains in the player's inventory. Zombies do not have equipped weapons. Revivified survivors must reequip their weapon.
• The currently equipped weapon can be seen in the profile description, along with clothing.

2. Weapon Encumbrance Values Firearm encumbrance values are increased. Guns can get heavy to carry, and shotguns are unwieldy. Pistols: 10%. Shotgun: 18%. Ammunition encumbrance is minimized. Bullets and shells take up relatively little space, and can be kept in backpacks, fannypacks, pockets, etc. Clips & Shells: 1%.

3. Reloading Reloading a clip or shell remains at 1 AP.

4. Weapon Balance: This change slightly increases the in-combat AP costs for survivors. With 8 loaded pistols in inventory, a player can currently do 240 damage in 48 turns at 65% rate, or 156 damage, or 3.25 damage/AP. With 1 equipped pistol and plenty of ammo, in 48 turns the player can empty 7 clips, doing 210 damage @65%, or 136.5 damage, or 2.84 damage/AP; a 12% decrease.

With current shotguns, 8 shotguns in inventory do 160 damage in 16 turns @ 65%, or 104 damage: 6.5damage/AP. With the change, two shots requires either switching (2AP) or reloading (2AP). Alternately, we can simply think of the unloaded shotgun as 2AP/shot. With the change, the shotgun would do 80 damage in 16 turns @ 65% or 52 damage, a 50% decrease. The change makes the shotgun even more front-loaded damage however.

It is very difficult to make absolute recommendations on numbers for game balance. Only in-game results can show whether items are unbalanced or not, and to what degree. However, as an initial rebalancing to make the change not appear so drastic, I suggest these figures:

Pistol: 6 damage/shot. (5 flak). In 48 turns (finishing empty), a pistol would do (6*7*6*0.65) or 163.8 damage on average: 3.4damage/AP, a 5% increase. This is a very modest change, and sticks to whole-number damage. In 6 turns, the existing pistol does 30 max damage, 19.5 average, the new does 36 or 23.4 average, but on subsequent turns the reload time brings the average damage back down. With 6 shots/7AP, the true average becomes 3.34dam/AP. Total pistol increase: 2.9%
Alternately: to kill 50HP enemy:

Current: 3.25dam/AP. (Assuming enough pistols in inventory) 16AP to kill

New: 3.34 dam/AP ((6*6*.65)/7). 15AP to kill.

Shotgun: 12 damage/shot (10 flak). 2 turns=24 damage @65%=15.6damage. Compare to current: 2 turns = 20*65%=13dam. This is a small front-end increase. However, comparing 16 turns (8 loaded current shotguns, vs 1 shotgun with reloading): (10*16*0.65)/16=6.5dam/AP. New shotgun: 2 shots, then 2 shots per 4 turns for 12 turns, then 1 shot in the last two turns. 2*12+12((2*12)/4)+0+12=108. @65%=70.2 or 4.39dam/AP. The shotgun decreases over time. If we compare current and new shotguns starting unloaded, it's 10dam/2AP vs 12dam/2AP. The advantage of starting a fight with a loaded shotgun goes up, but the advantage of carrying a stack of them goes down. It becomes worthwhile to consider switching to a sidearm after using the shotgun. This appears consistent with game believability.
An alternate way of looking at shotgun damage: to kill a 50HP enemy:

Current: 6.5damage/AP (assuming enough shotguns in inventory). 8AP to kill.

New: 2*7.8damage=15.6 for 2AP, then 7.8damage/2AP (reload, fire). 7AP to kill.

Shotgun opener + pistol: 15.6 average damage/2AP. 2AP to switch. 23.4 average damage/6AP. 1AP reload. 11.7 avg. dam. /3AP. = 50.7 damage in 14AP. Slightly more efficient than pistol alone, less than shotgun alone. (I have been working with current balance values; but the existing shotgun is much higher damage than the existing pistol. It requires more AP to find ammo, and reload.)

5. Weapon search rates Firearm search rate decreases slightly (most people will only want or need one of each type). Ammunition search rate increases slightly.
Pistols: Mall Gun Stores (2%/3%), Armories (2%), Police Departments (1%), Streets (1%?), Junkyards (1%?)
Shotguns: Mall Gun Stores (2%/3%), Armories (2%), Police Departments (1%), Pubs (1%)
Clips: Mall Gun Stores (13%/16%), Armories (13%), Police Departments (12%), Junkyards (2%?), Gatehouses (?%)
Shotgun shells: Mall Gun Stores (12%/16%), Armories (11%), Police Departments (11%), Junkyards (1%?)

• If a weapon is found, and the player has selected to discard that type of weapon, but they have NOT selected to discard the ammo, they retain the ammo that was in that firearm (if any).

Potential objections:

Game balance: the change to damage output/AP is relatively small. If game stats reveal survivors grow more powerful, or one weapon is more preferred than the other, damage values can be adjusted as necessary. The point of this change is not to drastically adjust game balance in any way, but to instead encourage a change in player behavior to something more consistent with genre. Any statistical flaws that benefit a weapon type or player group can be adjusted as necessary.

Inventory changes: this deprecates the value of carrying multiple weapons. Despite the increase in encumbrance of a single weapon, this should actually free up some space for people. The changes do not severely affect the contents of anyone's inventory.

Realism/Game fiction/Genre: Carrying an absurd amount of weapons is simply silly. The only reason people do is because the game mechanics encourage it. This change provides an incentive for players to behave much more akin to typical characters in zombie films: carrying a couple favored weapons, and enough ammo to keep them supplied.

Too long/complicated: This idea consists of minor changes to game variables (encumbrance, damage, search), and adds a straightforward feature which should work consistently with the existing interface and game data structures. It requires tracking one more piece of data per character: which weapon is equipped, and removes one piece of data normally transmitted on each attack: the weapon used. This should not be a prohibitive amount of development work. Balance changes are necessary to coincide with changes to AP costs for using weapons to minimize the secondary impact on gameplay.

Dupe: this is a new, comprehensive idea that stands on its own merit.

Areas for input:

How are the numbers? Are they reasonable to maintain balance while accomplishing the goal of this suggestion?

Discussion (No More Walking Armories)

1. Pistols are usually no bigger than two clips. Having 10% pistols and 1% clips is completely unjustified.
2. Shotguns are nowhere near the size or unwieldiness of generators (18% vs 20%).

Not just that, but raising the encumbrance of weapons doesn't really contribute to reducing the number of weapons and increasing the amount of ammunition carried. Changing the search percentages wouldn't affect much either. Just plain introducing the equipped-weapon gameplay would do it. It's simple; reloading costs 1 or 2 AP, changing a weapon would cost 2. Ammunition is lighter than weapons. For pistols this means you're paying 1 AP less per 6 bullets, and carrying double the amount of damage if you use clips over loaded pistols. For shotguns it means you're paying just as much, but still carrying one half more ammo by carrying shells instead of shotguns. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 23:28, 3 September 2008 (BST)

I don't believe the game's encumbrance values are based on real-world sizes or weights, but rather are a general reflection of carrying ability for the sake of game balance. They're arbitrary. No one can carry 5 portable generators at once, and being limited to carrying only 50 shotgun shells, when they're typically sold in small boxes of 24 to 48, reveals this. A Ruger Security Six revolver as listed on the firearms page weighs about 1 kilo; carrying 25 of them at 4% enc per, would mean 55 pounds of firearms. The point isn't to be completely accurate with size or weight, but present a tradeoff in carrying many vs. few. With 1 pistol (12%) and 8 clips (1%), for a total of 20% the user still comes ahead of carrying 8 current pistols (32%). While a shotgun does not weigh as much as a portable generator, carrying 16 of them (at 6%) is just as unreasonable.
The search values I adjust because finding new firearms becomes less important. This isn't critical to the suggestion however, especially if the part where I recommend that users be able to discard guns they find but keep the ammo in them. --Zhani 23:53, 3 September 2008 (BST)

The exact nature of encumbrance is pretty much irrelevant, as, like I said, changing the encumbrance values doesn't really contribute towards the goal of this suggestion. It just adds one more thing for people to find objectionable. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 09:59, 4 September 2008 (BST)

If currently people are carrying 16 weapons, and suddenly they can be just as effective with 3, they now have much more space for first aid kits, ammo, syringes, generators, etc. It's also about balance. While there is extra space, increasing weapon encumbrance means it isn't so survivor-favored in that aspect. --Zhani 10:47, 4 September 2008 (BST)

That reasoning would make more sense if you weren't halving the weight of ammunition. You still have to keep the values somewhat sensible when compared to others. 10% pistols and 18% shotguns are just too inconsistent. Something like 6/8% pistols and 12% shotguns would be better. Or you could bump up the encumbrance of everything else (which would make more sense, but would simply get spammed). --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 12:24, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Is it necessary for game-balance that survivors be limited to carrying a certain quantity of ammunition? To my mind, the limiting factor is search rates, more than carrying capacity. I halved the encumbrance of ammo to balance increasing the values for firearms, along with the fact that the new system encourages keeping plenty of loose ammo, rather than just that which fits in numerous weapons. As for game-realism, shotguns are large and unwieldy, it's implausible to carry more than two. Encumbrance can represent both weight and bulk. --Zhani 20:47, 4 September 2008 (BST)

I like this idea, both because it makes sense and it's better as flavour, but I don't think it will last two seconds in a vote..not that that's any reason not to suggest it, but all the trenchies will go "OMG ONLY 1 WEAPON + MORE RELOADS NOW I CAN ONLY KILL FOUR ZOMBIES A DAY KILL KILL KILL"
But I like it.. --Necrodeus ^{T M!} 01:50, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Thanks! :) Actually, I really am trying to keep the balance the about the same so that for purposes of killing speed, it's roughly neutral. --Zhani 02:07, 4 September 2008 (BST)

All these fucking words to just hide the fact you want to bump up the shotgun's damage. Go to hell. Go back and play Resident Evil some more if you get hard-ons from selecting and equipping weapons. You miss the point that this is a damn text game that only gives you 50 AP a day. You can't unload weapons when you find them and you are just as likely to find a pistol with 3 bullets in it as a full clip, but thanks to this GENIUS suggestion even if you aren't a trenchy you will still get your AP raped by swapping weapons. I like to think that survivors are smart enough not to carry their weapons in a back pack but to have them hidden on their body for easy access. I fucking hate gun suggestions. -- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 02:30, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Hi DCC. As I pointed out, in front-loaded damage the shotgun sees an increase, but over time it has reduced damage/AP compared to currently. If you compare the current system with someone carrying 10 loaded shotguns and enough ammo to reload & fire again for their 50AP, the new system represents an 11% decrease in average damage done. As I clearly stated, this isn't about altering game balance or enhancing/damaging the effectiveness of any weapon. As for searching, I provided a suggestion that ammo found in other weapons could be unloaded if the user already has a weapon. Also, I don't think being abusive is very consistent with rational discussion of people's ideas. --Zhani 02:39, 4 September 2008 (BST)

The game is not played in long term, at least for survivors it shouldn't be. They're more than mobile enough that they can pop in, do tons of damage, run out, and come back a few days later fully stocked and do the same thing. It's low risk and exactly why boosting short term gains for survivors anymore would be ridiculously overpowered.--Karek^maps?! 08:54, 4 September 2008 (BST)

This doesn't create a boost for survivors. Please see the graph I created. The intent is to create a change in behavior, without significantly affecting balance; which is why I'm happy to discuss the numbers used. The pistol remains almost exactly the same; the shotgun does very slightly more damage in the first two turns, quickly falls behind the damage put out by multiple preloaded existing shotguns. This is shifting the pre-combat AP investment to carry around all those loaded weapons, into combat itself, making it viable to have one weapon of each kind and reload during combat. This is more consistent with the game world and genre: frantically loading your weapon as the undead shamble towards you, than carrying 16 loaded weapons effortlessly. --Zhani 19:34, 4 September 2008 (BST)

I wasn't critiquing your suggestion. Now I am. To keep it simple I'm just gonna say this, you can't half ammo encumbrance it would have to much of an effect on the time survivors have that they can spend without restocking. That amount of time is a significant limiter on their ability to use/abuse their AP efficiency. You're basically doubling their Ammo carrying capacity and attempting to claim it's balanced by slightly reducing their attack efficiency(which is still being left close to 8 damage per AP). Yes, it makes individuals very very slightly less effective, it will also make groups of survivors insanely more effective and it will let those individuals spend more time without a break. That is a significant boost. Now I don't actually have too much of a problem with it assuming Kevan finally allows some specific zombie boost in response, and by that I mean finally letting them do a significant amount of damage per AP and letting them get through barricades with something closer to twice as much AP as they take to build instead of 4-5x. I don't think that will happen though.--Karek^maps?! 04:17, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Thanks Karek, this is an interesting point. Assuming a player wants to maximize their combat potential, and disregarding all other concerns (assume they're backed up by other players who will heal/rebuild etc.), a player might carry 16 shotguns (@6%) & 2 shells (@2%). That's an average of ((32+2)*10*0.65)=221 damage in 36AP, then they're empty. 6.14damage/AP. That's not including the significant AP investment to find and load all those guns. Under the proposed system, player has 1 shotgun @18%, and 82 shells @1%. They get 2AP of attacks, then thereafter it's 1attack/2AP (load & shoot). Over 166AP, they do an average of ((2+82)*12*0.65)=655.2 damage, or 3.94 damage/AP. They would have invested more AP in advance to gather all those shells.

I understand what you're saying. The existing system allows a quick burst of high damage, then the survivor has to go replenish. The new system would allow large restocking in a "safe" are, then being able to do damage for an additional 4.6x AP; however, both the average damage is reduced, as well as being spread out over more AP.

Say we go with 1 shotgun @18%, but 41 shells @2%. ((2+41)*12*0.65)=335.4 in 84AP, or 3.99damage/AP. Roughly the same damage output, just half the cycle time between attacking & replenishing; as well as less AP invested up front. So the question is: is the length of the attack/scavenge cycle significant to game balance? Do zombies depend on survivors running out, even if they're doing 2/3rd the average damage per AP? --Zhani 17:30, 5 September 2008 (BST)

That's not necessarily true either, with three, or even four, survivors striking together they can completely ignore the reduced efficiency. They would actually clear things faster and more efficiently then than they could now doing the same thing. Like I mentioned above, the average damage in the long term with shotguns is irrelevant because most of that cost occurs well outside of danger while most of the reward occurs when you want/need it to, all that would happen is who's holding the shotguns would change, that's actually what I like about an equipment based system. Lose everything else, keep that, the rest is irrelevant, likely impossible to balance, and seems generally based on the assumption that all Survivors are idiots; they aren't, they just don't have any real reason to work together. There's a good core idea here but the implementation needs work.--Karek^maps?! 13:12, 6 September 2008 (BST)

I think i like the start of this. Right now i can't focus to tell if all the numbers are good with me over a long base of time. but, first impression is i like this... i just don't know exactly how this would affect things until i'm actually using it. Also, i disagree with DCC... chill out, man. -tylerisfat 02:54, 4 September 2008 (BST)

This sounds great but really this is more of an AP kill. Consider that the majority of us survivors depend on being a walking arsenal, making us pay 2AP to get a loaded pistol out can highly unbalance the basics for siege survival. I say you drop it down to 1AP or just drop it entirely and make this a weapon pump. This has potential and I love the stats given, but you just gotta fine tone it. Try getting together a study group, devise a neat little generator amongst yourselves, provide a report in place of the hypothesis that we do have now and then try getting this into voting. Chaplain Drakon Macar 04:50, 4 September 2008 (BST)

There AP cost is there to provide the incentive to reload the weapon you're using, rather than switch out to one loaded weapon after another. For the pistol, it makes it more advantageous, for the shotgun, it makes it equal with carrying other shotguns, but the drop in encumbrance acts as a bonus. The increase in damage for both pistol and shotgun help balance against the increased AP costs so damage/AP is roughly the same. With pistols, you currently do 6 attacks in 6 turns, then switch. With the new system, you'll do 6 attacks in 6 turns, 1 turn to reload, then go again. So you need 1 pistol, and just clips. 6 damage/attack instead of 5 makes them close in damage output. Likewise with the shotgun, with the current system you fire 1 shot per AP for as long as you have shotguns. With my proposal, you still get two shots for two AP with your pre-loaded gun, then you get 1 shot every 2 AP: reload 1 shell, fire, etc. In the first few turns you'll have done more damage than the existing system, but after a few turns, it does a little less on average. Oh, and remember: with the existing system, you still need to spend the AP to load your weapons. You just do it before combat, not during. Like I said, this brings it more in genre: desperately reloading as the zombies advance on you, instead of carrying a dozen loaded shotguns on your back. --Zhani 05:32, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Re: weapon balance: Please see this graph. This compares current with proposed weapon damage. I'm somewhat inclined to increase the shotgun to 13 or 14, but the relative advantage between the old and new shotgun depends on how many loaded shotguns the player would have under the old system. I assumed 8 for this graph. If it's less, the difference is much narrower; it's unlikely a player would have many more. Note that the player has a damage advantage with the old shotgun until they run out; but they had to spend the same AP in advance to load those 8 shotguns. The new shotgun merely incorporates that loading AP into combat. --Zhani 06:16, 4 September 2008 (BST)

GRRRRRRRRRRH!!! KISS me, please. i.e., Keep. It. Simple. Stupid. This may be a fantastic idea, but I can't be arsed atm to read that wall of text. Please learn how to be more concise. Seriously. Thank you. --WanYao 16:22, 4 September 2008 (BST)

What I did read... led me here... This is unnecessary. Because carrying lots of loaded firearms is actually a very poor use of AP and encumbrance. The most Ap-encumbrance efficient weapon in the game is the pistol, by far. And the best way to use pistols is to have 2-3 of them and tonnes of ammo. Shotguns are spiffy weapons, but their ap-encumbrance efficiency is atrocious: if wind up with a few, use 'em... but once its empty? Drop it, don't reload it, that's a giant waste of AP... So, if people wanna waste their AP and encumbrance on carrying and reloading lots of firearms -- the zombies say go right ahead and be horribly inefficient!

That being said... What ticks me is that I never find pistol ammo in Malls. It's always shotguns. Graaaaagh! Which means... I don't think we need a big game mechanic overhaul, so much as search rates should be tweaked... --WanYao 16:30, 4 September 2008 (BST)

More thoughts... If people wanna carry lots of guns, more power to them. Because that helps the zombies... Because zombies can't be killed. And survivors should be focusing on barricading and reviving and healing first -- and when they are not... then the zombies win! By default.

Also, "walking armouries" are totally in genre. You always have the Armah Manz with billions of b!g bang-bangz... Always. And usually, these are the idiots who end up getting killed... And the consumer type who focuses on helping others and getting the job done most effectively lives and helps more people... As in the genre, as in UD... Now, I kind of would like to see trenchcoating get a bit of a nerf... however, i am always very cautious about "legislating playing styles"... And that is what this suggestion does. --WanYao 16:37, 4 September 2008 (BST)

I'm sorry you found the idea too long. However, I wanted to be specific in the reason for each change, and the expected effect. In order to make the change relatively balance-neutral while encouraging a behavioral change, adjusting numbers in several places is necessary. You said that carrying shotguns and reloading would be inefficient: that's part of what the change is attempting to address. People carry multiple weapons because they can front-load their AP to increase damage in a short time. This idea diminishes that effect while allowing them to output roughly the same damage/AP invested.

I disagree that "walking armories" are in-genre. The "Army Mans" carry an assault rifle, a couple grenades, and maybe a sidearm. The only reason players will carry 16 loaded weapons around is because the current game mechanics encourage this behavior; it's not something you'd typically see in a film. They can stock up on weapons and ammo in advance, then unleash that stored AP in the form of damage. What is more consistent with the genre and a plausible game-world, is carrying a couple reliable weapons, and reloading them as needed. This change isn't legislating playing styles: combat-oriented players will still be able to arm up and go to war. They'll just do it with a couple weapons and plenty of ammo, rather than 200 pounds of firearms on their back. Their combat effectiveness versus the zombies will be largely unchanged. --Zhani 19:55, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Instead of trying to play with the big boys in the flame department, I suggest picking up some reading comprehension skills. I addressed your "refutations" in my original post. First of all, the game does not actually encourage carrying 16 loaded weapons; in so far as you are able to do so, you're most assuredly not contributing to the pro-survivor cause. That you fail to understand why isn't my problem: do your homework. Secondly, dudes armed to the teeth shooting the shit out every zombie they see (and usually dying grisly deaths themselves because of their stupidity) are very common in both the movies and, yeah, even the video games. Pay attention next time, okay? And go re-read karek and DCC's comments and try to understand the words of your intellectual superiors. THEN get back to us. --WanYao 20:12, 4 September 2008 (BST)

I'm afraid that you really haven't supported your objections, despite claiming you have. Whether choosing combat-oriented activities in-game helps or hinders the survivor cause is irrelevant: you mentioned that we shouldn't be dictating player style. This suggestion as I've stated is largely balance-neutral. What is does, is discourages exactly what I describe: the "walking armory" effect, and encourages carrying only needed weapons with sufficient ammunition. This doesn't prevent or penalize anyone from walking in with guns blaring, it just means they don't look like this guy while doing it. More like this. --Zhani 20:34, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Balance neutral ? What's this shit? How can something be "neutral" -balance or otherwise- when it tries to change the way people play? Don't tell people how to play their characters. It's just that simple. Who cares if someone fills all of their inventory with weapons or with GPS units? So what if some trenchies want to carry 100 shotguns? I can tell you haven't been playing this game long. More likely you don't even play a zombie. Which makes your bitching about weapons even weirder. Your suggestion doesn't solve a problem. Your suggestion does not make gameplay more interesting. -- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 23:54, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Could you be specific about how you feel it's unbalanced? And the suggestion is not telling people how to play. The intention of that guideline for suggestions I believe is that we shouldn't discourage RP or encourage non-RP. People can play their characters how they choose, and fill their inventory with what they want. However, the current game mechanics actively encourages players to be walking arsenals if they want to maximize their combat effectiveness. The problem the suggestion solves is that carrying a huge stack of weapons is anti-RP, contrary to the genre and game-fiction. As I've said, it's silly. Carrying a shotgun, revolver, and melee weapon seems much more plausible, and something you'd see in a zombie movie, don't you think? This lets someone who does that, be viable in combat. Additionally, I have attempted to balance this so it's neutral towards zombies, not shifting the advantage. Again, I invite you to show me how it is not. --Zhani 00:35, 5 September 2008 (BST)

You say you don't want to legislate how people play the game one moment, then the next you say that's exactly what you want to do! Make up your mind. Now... Zombies don't care if they get shot. If you actually played a zombie full-time, you'd understand this. Shot me all you bloody well want, I'll dirt nap and stand up again with, at worst, 44 AP and be ready to go. Therefore, shooting zombies is completely pointless except when you need to clear a building. To that end, you carry some guns. But smart survivors don't carry lots of guns: they carry maybe 2-4 pistol and 2-4 shotguns, tops. Why? Well... because the most powerful pro-survivor thing in the whole game is the revive-needle. Next come barricading and FAKing. Smart survivors know this, thus they carry several needles (sometimes a hell of a lot), a toolbox and a big whack o' FAKs. These are the survivors who benefit the "pro-survivor" cause. By contrast, anyone who just carries a whole bunch of guns is not really benefiting the survivor cause all that much, they are just parasiting off others' barricades, revives and FAKs. Nor are they really hurting zombies, because zombies don't care if they die. Capiche? You say I haven't backed up my arguments, but I have. I actually made an argument -- it's just that you either don't understand, or you're wilfully ignoring the argument. Meanwhile, you've just provided statistics and a flawed idea, which you haven't put in any kind of rational or argumentative or bona-fide in-game context... Meanwhile, I don't care if someone wants to carry 16 shotguns -- as a survivor or a zombie. As a survivor, I think that guy is a parasitic waste of space and I will make fun of him and belittle him for being a trenchcoating wanker -- but he's not really hurting me. And, as your picture of Ash demonstrates, all said and done, he is actually RPing in-genre. And as a zombie I outright laugh at his stupidity and I smash his barricades and eat bra!nz with a hearty GRAAAAGH!!... However, I do not wish to legislate how he plays the game in such a heavy-handed way... Which is exactly what your suggestion intends to do -- by your own fucking admission! This is not a good idea, and by clinging to it and not accepting constructive and reasonable criticism, you're proving yourself to be fucking git, a disruptive and non-contributive member of the community. --WanYao 12:12, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Hmm. When I said that, you criticized me for having a superficial understanding of the game. The shoe's on the other foot now, eh? -- Galaxy125 17:19, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Hi WanYao. How many shotguns is Ash carrying? One. How many firearms will a typical person in a zombie film carry? One, or one rifle/shotgun and one sidearm. In UrbanDead as it stands, how many firearms will a person carry if they want to maximize their combat potential? 16. The game mechanics are already telling them "how to play", it's saying that if you want to devote yourself to dealing damage, you carry a silly and fiction-breaking number of weapons.

I'm afraid your comments about what is actually optimal strategy are irrelevant and a red herring. This suggestion makes no change in what players should do in order to be maximally effective. It simply alters the game mechanics so that the optimal number of weapons to carry is one of each, and not 16. This is what is more in keeping with the genre, more plausible in the game fiction. There's no advocated or encouraged change in "player behavior": a combat-oriented player will choose ammo over other objects, while others will stock sufficient ammo and keep their FAKs and toolkits etc. You've already said that with the status-quo, even good players will have 4-8 weapons. Again, this is silliness that is a result solely of the game mechanics, not because they believe their fictional roleplaying character would actually be that kind of badass. The game dictates how many weapons they should carry. I'm for reducing that number, without significantly affecting game balance itself.

Now if you want to make the case that 1% encumbrance ammo too greatly reduces the tradeoff between being combat-oriented or rebuild/heal oriented, I'm happy to hear it. Karek's provided his support for a similar argument above. And as usual, your personal attacks are completely off-base. I've been giving all reasoned criticism due weight. I get that some people don't like the idea, based on personal biases, but so far, I've only seen one specific argument for what might be wrong. --Zhani 17:44, 5 September 2008 (BST)

This wall of text is getting pathetic... Anyhoo, there is another principle that no one has mentioned yet, but it bears emphasis: greater realism =/= better. Anyway, I'm done with this, it's arguing in circles now. Good luck. --WanYao 18:45, 6 September 2008 (BST)

That's just your luck. I find TONS of clips and pistols with 4+ shots. Last time I loaded up, such stuff was easily 75% of what I found in the gun store. In fact, I would have stopped searching, but it took me a long time to find a shotgun shell to top up the half-loaded shotgun I had.  Swiers 16:40, 4 September 2008 (BST)

I fucking hate you. This comment in particular - "Dupe: this is a new, comprehensive idea that stands on its own merit."

Put it up for voting, right fucking now. Watch me dupe it on basis of weapons damage buff, selected weaponry and ammunition encumbrance buff. Just because your 'suggestion' contains many shit suggestions does not mean I cannot find those many mindless trenchie buffs and rightfully kill it, it means you are fucking deluded for thinking I can't and typing such a moronic suggestion.

Shit, I wish karma was real, then some really bad things would happen to you, I'd find out about them and chortle my arse off. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 17:45, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Get arsed, yourself, Iscariot. Assuming trolls have arses, that is. Do they? Or does all your shit come out of your mouth?

Meanwhile, karek, swiers and DCC have pretty much show this suggestion for the BAD IDEA it is... So let's move on, kay, class? Next lesson please... --WanYao 19:44, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Please seek help. --Zhani 19:46, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Alrighty then... See, there is a time and place for being an asshole. I felt the situation was not appropriate, thus my comments to Iscariot. I take them all back now: go nuts, Izzy. --WanYao 19:56, 4 September 2008 (BST)

What makes you believe it's ever acceptable or appropriate to behave abusively towards people? This sort of behavior certainly isn't conducive to rational discussion and addressing the merits or problems in a suggestion. It simply brings the quality of the wiki down, and reflects poorly on the community. --Zhani 20:02, 4 September 2008 (BST)

Other than Iscariot, no one is trolling you. And, in context -- while I don't really think his comments are particularly helpful -- you've brought it on yourself. In any event, if you want a love-in, where everyone is nice to each other and they let you cry on their should if someone was mean to you, please go here. --WanYao 12:16, 5 September 2008 (BST)

I'm not trolling at all, trolling implies I'm after a certain response from him. I don't. It would be nice if he'd listened to all the nice people explaining it to him, but he didn't. The comment about duping is pure arrogance on his part, and I don't take kindly to it. The dupe system stops moronic suggestions entering PR because everyone reasonable gets bored of killing it. |I notice he hasn't taken me up on my challenge to see if I could dupe it....

Also Zhani, feel free to go and whine on any sysop talk page you like. The one you're after is Vandal Banning. Good luck with that, there is no civility policy on this wiki and until we remove to moronic-trenchie-weapons-buff gene from the general population, there never will be. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 22:48, 5 September 2008 (BST)

...Well isn't that one long suggestion. --Aeon17x 12:24, 5 September 2008 (BST)

...Well isn't that one long discussion. -- User:Whitehouse 12:31, 5 September 2008 (BST)

... Speaking of things long... ::looks down:: Oh, is that a banana in my pocket, or am I just happy to see a zombie in my safehouse? --WanYao 02:07, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Thats a whole lot of SPAM you typed up there... what's wrong with just making weapons assignable? Allow everyone to carry a weapon in each hand and have it cost 1AP per hand to change (shotguns requiring a free hand or having a -60% to hit!) reload or re-arm then cost the same and it becomes a matter of choice which style you prefer. Of course that makes maxed out survivors a lot less like the combat monsters they currently are but thats probably not a real problem! --Honestmistake 12:38, 5 September 2008 (BST)

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Body Bonfires

Timestamp:	Blake Firedancer T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T. 01:48, 3 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Perma-death option.
Scope:	Characters in citys with perma-death alternatives.
Description:	I've got a zombie character currently running around Monroeville looking for the precious few survivors there are in order to eat them. One of Monroeville's biggest problems, I think, is that there was no way for low-level survivors from killing zombies permanently. Zombies could take out survivors, no problem, but unless you had Headshot, you couldn't take down a zombie. I know that's in-genre, given that they're the freaking undead and all, but it sucks game-wise. Thus, I came up with 'Body Bonfires', after watching the movie Night of the Living Dead. Should this get implemented, survivors can now douse corpses in gasoline (from fuel cans) and set them alight with matches (find stats TBC), lighters (find stats TBC) or even a flare gun, if desperate. A burning corpse will degrade into a 'charred skeleton', after which time the character would be effectively 'perma-dead'. Note that this is meant to replace Headshot as the survivor perma-death, not co-incide with it.

Discussion (Body Bonfires)

No. Why? Monroeville is quarantined and dead. Adding more items that make things even more difficult to find and implement will not suddenly change the dynamics of the city, nor will it make monroeville more fair. the point, i daresay, of that city is to more realistically show a zombie infestation, and the only way to do that is by making the limited amount of zombies unlimited, with only a small amount of very good zombie killers who can do anything about it, which still amounts to not much. its fine, and the city is pointless, and just leave it. and don't add matches and lighters to do what flare guns already do. -tylerisfat 02:33, 3 September 2008 (BST)

I think you misread my suggestion. For one, this is NOT for Monroeville. Monroeville is dead (or will be soon), this is for any new cities that will also have perma-death mechanics, should one ever be introduced. For another, you can only burn a zombie once they're on the ground having been 'temp-killed' (HP to 0). --Blake Firedancer ^{T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T.} 09:52, 3 September 2008 (BST)

I didn't misread crap. Nothing in your post makes reference to any mythical city that is currently not existant. You only mention monroeville, and imply that is what your suggestion is about. And after reading it again, i've decided this is a) a dupe; b) spamtastic, given the non-existant nature of your supposed city; and c) incomplete, given that you don't actually talk about where it is implemented, or if its a skill, or how its done in the user interface. just allow it to die, and then we'll burn the suggestions corpse out of our memories. - tylerisfat 20:44, 3 September 2008 (BST)

Completely pointless because such a hypothetical perma-death city does not exist. You can't get more spamtastic than suggesting a mechanic for something that doesn't even exist. --WanYao 09:56, 3 September 2008 (BST)

Reminds me of both Suggestion:20070816 Burning Bodies and another suggestion which I can't quite find at the moment. It is entirely possible that this may be substantially a dupe. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 12:50, 3 September 2008 (BST)

I found Flare Gun / Fuel Attack interesting reading, to say the least. How many MrAushvitz suggestions have been implemented, now? Surely the apocalypse is extremely nigh... ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 12:57, 3 September 2008 (BST)

Sorry, no, perma-death would not go over in this game. It's simply not fun for the players, and gives a person a reason to give up playing. Favors survivors overwhelmingly, and doesn't really improve the game. I hate to be one of those types shooting down ideas, but this doesn't work. --Zhani 20:36, 3 September 2008 (BST)

A) You only mentioned Monroeville, the dead city. B) MV has one purpose now, and one purpose only: ZKing. I Am Sabbo 02:48, 5 September 2008 (BST)

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Make graffiti readable in dark buildings

Timestamp:	Kolechovski 21:10, 2 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	Logic Flaw Fix
Scope:	Graffiti in dark buildings
Description:	Graffiti disappears when the lights go out in dark buildings. Since it is unreasonable to assume that absolutely no light can get in any parts of dark buildings, why wouldn’t the graffiti just be sprayed in the areas that the little light can get in? Such places would be the front of cinemas (where the snack bar is, as there are usually windows out front), near the windows of the banks, and near the windows of standard buildings. I have never seen any buildings like these completely lacking windows in all areas, and windows would have to exist for Free Running to be possible, so even if the skylights haven’t been maintained, there’s no reason people wouldn’t be spraying the signs near the window areas where it’d be visible, even if the rest of the building is dark.

Discussion (Make graffiti readable in dark buildings)

It's dark. You can't see dead bodies. Combat abilities are nerfed for everyone. You can't repair a building in the dark. Barricading and reviving are also disadvangtaged. So there's no logic flaw here, not at all. It's bloody dark!!--WanYao 09:53, 3 September 2008 (BST)

The logic is fine as is - after years of the outbreak, the walls will be pocked, peeling and covered in grime and blood, not to mention layers of graffiti in different colours. You'd need fairly good light to make out the latest message.

I was thinking of suggesting an item, book of matches, the sole purpose of which would be to let the user (only) read graffiti in the dark. But I couldn't be arsed looking for dupes etc. Garum 10:52, 3 September 2008 (BST)

But..but.. what about all those blank rectangles I sprayed onto the walls to keep them clean and in one colour! In all seriousness, no to this suggestion. As Garum says, those walls are a mess, no matter how many blank rectangles you spray. :P - User:Whitehouse 12:03, 3 September 2008 (BST)

We don't need a silly, pointless item like matches to spam our searches. Meh. It's dark. Deal with it. --WanYao 12:26, 5 September 2008 (BST)

WE DEMAND BRAILLE GRAFFITI! Fuck you, cripple haters. I need to be able to read I like to poop no matter how much light is in the building. -- #99 ^{DCC SNACK STRONG} 00:31, 7 September 2008 (BST)

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picking some one up

Timestamp:	Nequa 19:44, 1 September 2008 (BST)
Type:	helping others.
Scope:	humans.
Description:	Almost all of us can say that we have been killed while sleeping, or have been a zombie and killed all the humans becuase most of them were sleeping. So why not allow people to carry some one out of danger? Lets say that you and some of your buddys are fleeing a horde, and one of them is out of AP, so why not pick him/her up? It would cost one AP to pick the player up, and 2 AP to move around, and you would not be able to free run {you are carrying another person). You also cant attack since, it would be to diffuclt. You would rengenrate AP as you would normally would, and can be put down for one AP. If the person carrying you is killed, you fall down and be as vunerable as you would be normally. Now comes the PKer question. Being able to pick some one up and carry them of to some were else to kill them would become a PKers best tool. So I sujest there should be a check box in the settings, which you can check yes or no to being picked up. If you try to pick some one up how has checked the box no, this happens. you try to pick the person up, but they push you away: Italic text

Discussion (Picking some one up)

Pied Piper skills are a great no no. Specifically because of the griefing possibilities. Even with the block you suggested, I don't think it would be acceptable. A better way of determining who can pick you up would be to check for mutual contacts, and not ignored. Not that I think this would pass even with that, because I'm pretty sure this is a dupe. - User:Whitehouse 19:54, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Pied Piper? Whats that?Nequa 20:15, 1 September 2008 (BST)

A pied piper skill is one that involves one player moving another (like the pied piper of hamelin and rats/children) Within game the closest we have is Feeding Drag which has on it very specific limiting factors. This is too prone to abuse. New players especially may not know its a feature, and one griefer could pick up a huge number of people and carry them directly outside. Where they would get et. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:27, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Just as Ross said, here is a link to it on the frequently suggested page. I suggest reading that page, will give you an idea of suggestions to avoid. - User:Whitehouse 20:31, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Nequa please read Dos and Do Nots and Frequently Suggested pages. They are linked to above, at the top of this page. Zangz. --WanYao 20:28, 1 September 2008 (BST)

I see what you mean, but I still think that the check box would stop that. And if you are tricked, well thats just bad luck.Nequa 20:49, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Only way this would be prevented is if everyone had it set to "Do not allow me to be dragged away", and only switched back when they knew a rescue was on the way. It is simply to abusable in it's current form. And try telling the poor newbies, who weren't aware of the checkbox, that it was just bad luck and that they have to live with it after being dragged away from their VSB safehouse into an area full of EHB cades. - User:Whitehouse 21:02, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Nothings perfect, and anyway you could kill somebody quickly and no one could stop you.Nequa 21:17, 1 September 2008 (BST)

surely the default should be dont allow carrying. Stop a lot of griefing there? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:27, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Sure, you could have that checkbox turned off as a default. But then, how would people who have this skill know who they could pick up, and who they could not?
Moving other players is a bad idea to begin with, play wise, so picking at th details is turd polishing at best. If you want to "rescue" people from danger , give them fist aid, try to fix the barricades, and recruit others to help them survive until they log back in, but don't presume to play the game for them.  Swiers 21:30, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Wait, what? You think this is a skill? A skill you need to get by having enough XP? No, no, no, you dont need to purchase it. Also your other point about knowing if the person has the thing checked or not is a good point. You should probally put it on your describtion if you have it on or not, like the hydra defence.Nequa 21:47, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Right. Other issues. If I pick up a level 1 survivor, this seems to allow me to carry him inside, and then free run to another building whilst carrying him. Regardless of his skills. Besides Im pretty sure its also a partial dup of firemans carry. Anyone got the link. I just feel its unworkable. sorry. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 22:02, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Fireman's Carry, which is in Reviewed. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 22:55, 1 September 2008 (BST)

LOL, that guy pretty much says the same thing I do. It appears great minds think alike. Now do I seem like a idiot?Nequa 02:05, 2 September 2008 (BST

More so, now that you've said that. quit being unwilling to learn. everyones been very nice. now go actually FREAKING READ THE DO AND DO NOTS!

No one is pointing out the worst part of this. What if i create fifteen drones, and use them to carry a full army of survivors into zombie territory. you don't put it plainly, but you seem to infer that you can only be carried while sleeping (or at least, i'm hoping, because otherwise those zergs could carry armies of full ap'd characters) but either way, its a free trip for my sleeping characters, who spent their AP stocking on ammo. my zergs carry them in, dump them off in a zerg-repaired building, and let them sleep. now i have an army, 2 for one. thats what makes this bad. adding a penalty of 2 for one doesn't fix that.

and the griefing is absolutly grieftastic. what if i rescue someone with low HP out of a mall into a quiet factory where i show him my gun?... i mean... pk him. errm... or how about if i spend a whole 50 ap 'rescuing' any of the barricaders in a seige with a death culter. the check box doesn't solve this, because the only time that someone would want to be rescued is the same time where its worth abusing the feature. it fails because it will never work. if you can't free run with it, (can you enter/exit buildings?) then its worthless for doing anything but costing the zombie horde half the amount of AP to keep up with you.

This was long... sorry. but this suggestion is silly silly silly. NOW READ THE FAQ's and DO AND DO NOTS! Please. and don't read them and then try to come up with a better way to do what it tells you not to do... just DON'T suggest those things. - tylerisfat 03:15, 2 September 2008 (BST)

Also, wan yao... i think one of my alts was just combat revived by you. Ha. - tylerisfat 03:22, 2 September 2008 (BST)

Combat Reviving FTW!!! ;P .... Up Roftwoodish or something, right? I vaguely remember CRing some zambah somewhere for some old reason or another, heheh... --WanYao 18:40, 2 September 2008 (BST)

As for the suggestion... Yeah... you seem like an idiot at this moment, Nequa. This is a broken and unworkable idea. People are trying to explain that to you. But you're not listening, and you can't even be bothered to read the help pages for Suggestion development -- which are clearly linked to -- and which people have been providing you with links to, above... Smarten the fuck up, please, and quit wasting our time. Seriously. --WanYao 18:44, 2 September 2008 (BST)

I distinctly remember telling you to stop suggesting... -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 17:49, 4 September 2008 (BST)

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Feeding Drag in Large Buildings

Timestamp:	Necrodeus T M! 02:46, 31 August 2008 (BST)
Type:	improvement
Scope:	Zombies with feeding drag in large buildings
Description:	Hello team. The feeding drag skill allows zombies to drag survivors of less than 12HP outside through an open door at the cost of 1AP. Therefore, if a zombie enters a large building through an open door, then makes its way through the building unimpeded (ie, through more open doors or just empty space), beats a survivor down to 12HP or below, there should exist the option to feeding drag said survivor through the building. It makes sense, as you are inside a building and simply dragging the unfortunate survivor somewhere else in the building, presumably towards the horde that generally congregates in the opened block. Now I know that this is the same as suggesting that I could feeding drag a wounded survivor through open streets, but I do think that as it is limited to the insides of large buildings it is hardly useful as a griefing tool, neither would it be game breaking, and it fits in with the idea behind the feeding drag as well - if a zombie feels the need to drag someone outside, why should the fact that it's slightly longer distance than normal dissuade him?

Discussion (Feeding Drag in Large Buildings)

Kind of like a zombie equivalent for the fort body dump? I like it. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 04:02, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Seems out of genre, normally a zombie will feed for itself with absolutely NO consideration for a horde. Though this skill is a good idea, it would be a bit pointless because if you have a survivor at 12 HP and most of the time the only large building you are in would be a mall, it would mean you drag someone near dead to a horde, either way, the survivor was already HIGHLY LIKELY to die unless terribly low on AP this skill is just useless. I say just stick with infectious bite. Chaplain Drakon Macar 04:12, 31 August 2008 (BST)

No. Feeding Drag and zambahz helping babahz is totally part of the genre -- as in, it's in the game ... So it's part of the genre. Zombies in Urban Dead have intelligence, more like in Return of the Living Dead than in Romero's movies. Regarding the suggestion, I think this is a great idea! But it should cost at least 2 AP to so, perhaps more. You usually don't have to drag as far, or through as complicated a series of buildings as in a fort, so I'm not sure if the same AP costs is in order... but perhaps... Still, in siege situations where this matters, we tend to just tend to kill rather than worry about dragging... However, even then, this ability would be FAR from "useless". --WanYao 06:08, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Ok.. I'm out of it.. I understood this as the equivalent of dragging a body outside the Forts. Which would mean you click the ability and you drag your target outside -- and you go with him, just like you would a normal feeding drag. No "half drags" to another corner of the mall -- it's all or nothing, all the way outside, or not at all. And that would cost 2 AP. And of course you'd still have to spend AP getting back inside and to the action, if that's your desire. There are some tricks to overcome with this... but it's a cool idea, nonetheless. --WanYao 06:37, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Yeah, I like it as well. Some people might call it greifing though Linkthewindow 04:21, 31 August 2008 (BST).

I was 50/50 between making it just like a body dump costing 2AP and making it like it is now, but certainly a feeding drag all the way outside for 2AP - like the survivor body dump - is just as keeping in genre and could be considered less of a potential griefing tool.

What if it just acted the same as feeding drag, so I end up outside. It costs 2AP, and then if I want to get back inside it just costs me the same as normal movement rates - so at least 1AP to just re-enter the building, and 2 AP to get back to where I was originally? It's hardly a griefing tool, you're only ever going to end up outside the building you were in, and at most 1 block away from where you were Necrodeus ^{T M!} 12:38, 31 August 2008 (BST)

That's exactly what I just said, man... The only issue could be as follows: you're in mall, all corners are heavily barricaded except one, which is wide open... you're in another (non-open) corner killing some folk, and you want to use this ability. Now, do you drag the victim to the outside of your current corner, or do you end up moving to the open corner? What if there is more than one open corner? Or, if you drag to the outside of your current corner, then how do you justify bypassing barricades -- because even just a closed door negates feeding drag... See the problems? This is a very spiffy idea IMO, but these things need to be worked out... --WanYao 15:00, 31 August 2008 (BST)

I was agreeing with you! I was thinking that the feeding drag took them out of the open corner, rather than through the barricades. As for what would happen if more than one door was open, I would say go to the nearest one, except that in a four block square, every sqaure is as near as any of the others...I couldn't see it making too much of a difference which one you drag someone out of, so I would make it random; the zombie just heads towards the light, any light. That way, as long as there is a door open when the button is pressed, the feeding drag will be successful, rather than allowing the user a choice. --Necrodeus ^{T M!} 17:12, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Probably won't matter a lot now since this suggestion would likely get implemented (if ever) after Monroeville closes, but in that city there are non-standard large building shapes, like Monroeville Mall. You can like drag someone across four blocks. :O Also, how would a zombie know which building block is open from where he/she stands? --Aeon17x 17:22, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Malls, Mansions, Power Stations ... are large buildings which means they are functionally one building. With fours sets of barricades. And four zmargahzbargz, GRAAAAGH! The zombies knew how to get inside and move around when there was only one entry point, so why couldn't they know how to get back out? And, I mean, like he could just look around... Also, yeah, no-one cares about MV, it's over... --WanYao 17:48, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Well, you as the player know there's an entrance to the building, at least recently. In contrast, your zombie can only check within the block he's in -- even adjacent ruined blocks aren't guaranteed that there are no cades there. Unless the zombie is actually looking at every block in the building (something which implies free moves), then without metagaming he/she won't really know there is an exit should dragging be done. --Aeon17x 18:18, 31 August 2008 (BST)

But like Wan said, you're basically inside one large building. If you try and feeding drag inside a regular building, and the doors been closed, or whatever, you get a message and lose an AP, like for any failed attack. It's the same here. And the whole point of feeding drag is that zombies *do* know where the exit is --Necrodeus ^{T M!} 20:29, 31 August 2008 (BST)

No. Its not needed. Once zombies get into a large building, they almost always take it down by keeping one corner ruined, or at least unbarricaded. The babah zombies can just come inside to feed, entering by spotting the ruined corner and then gorging themselves. Besides not being needed, its got a lot of potential complications. What if a large building has multiple open sections? Which one does the zombie drag them to? If zombies really wanted to use feeding drag in every section, they could just spend a few AP each to tear down the barricades, even getting a bonus for attacking from the inside in most cases.
I think its safe to say, if a zombie tries to drag a survivor across one or more blocks inside a large building, the survivor struggles and breaks free.  Swiers 18:36, 31 August 2008 (BST)

I'm afraid I disagree; you seem to have a fairly convincing argument against feeding drag itself; namely that if your baby zombah is standing outside any old building, he can see it's open and shamble on in. So why do we need feeding drag at all? I've already answered the point about which exit to be used as well. And yes, I could spend a whole load of AP tearing down the barricades to feeding drag a wounded survivor outside, or I could just spend 2AP and drag the human outside the exit that's already open.
And surely the point of feeding drag is that the survivor is wounded enough to not be able to stop it happening? And why should a human be able to drag a zombie across several squares of fort without it reviving? In both cases, if the player is online, they are better able to defend against this, with the difference being that all a survivor needs to do to 'break free' is simply walk back inside the building.
If I'm way off here, let me know, but it makes sense to me --Necrodeus ^{T M!} 20:29, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Not of base, but my point is, if zombies on a whole really cared about feeding drag, each of the ~20 or so in a large building could kick in 4 AP and blow away any barricades on that building quarter. That's really only enough AP to kill 2-3 survivors- not enough to slow down a siege once zombies are comping on a SECOND building corner. So it seems to me that zombies themselves do not put much importance on whether they can use feeding drag or not, as evidenced by their own actions in raids. Its not needed to make zombies vs large buidings work, nor would it really make it much better.
Truth told, feeding drag was originally used mostly to combat the "yo-yo barricade" syndrome by getting a building emptied (and ransacked) faster; now that zombies can block barricade building, its a bit of an atavism. Its main use is as a "visible" version of feeding groan. For a mall, if you want to let zombies know there is an active strike with some visible cue, just killing the generator is often good enough.  Swiers 00:16, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Fait enough for a horde sweeping through a building, but in my experience, I use eeding Drag for two reasons: Firstly, when I break into a building with one or two others, I know there is a chance that it will escalate into a horde swarming in, but more often that not, it won't. But by dragging a human outside, that's one less defender, and a drain on resources, because that person is outside regardless of whether I get headshot and evicted or not. Secondly, the FU tends to use it as a in game piece of flavour as much as a way of feeding the zedlings. So for a horde, I agree, Feeding Drag is unneccessary, and if you've got the resources to tear down the barricades with ease, then I'm all for that too, but for feral zombies, or smaller groups it's a slightly different ball game --Necrodeus ^{T M!} 00:39, 1 September 2008 (BST)

When playing a feral (and my death cultist, too, actually) I use and think of Feeding Drag the same way necrodeus describes. It helps small numbers of zombies get the ransack faster. Also, if the cades go up, that drag-meat is suddenly isolated. And drag-meat is fantastic feral bait. And, yup, I do it very much for flavour/RP effect as well. Although, it doesn't work thar well for feeding babahz, b/c usually some big zambah comes along and eats them :( ... This is all in very big contrast to striking with the MOB, where we only drag if we are very intent on getting that damn biulding cleared -- because we can always tag-team to finish someone off if we have to. And if we are feeding a babah, we bring the babah inside with us. This suggestion is more for the ferals than for highly organised hordes...

And a few other things: killing a gennie is not enough: GKing is too common... And swiers you know how annoying barricades are -- it really is asking a lot for a smaller number of ferals zombies to invest what it takes to open up EHB cades... But all that being said... Perhaps this isn't necessary, not really. And, it might in the end be a zombie buff that is just a tiny, tiny bit too much... Particularly with cade blocking... But... I still like it... ;) --WanYao 13:36, 1 September 2008 (BST)

Well, I'm going to put it up, and see what the people / merciless flamers have to say.. Necrodeus ^{T M!} 20:45, 1 September 2008 (BST)

I'm not gonna flame it; it can;t do enough harm to deserve that. My personal issue is that I'd like (as much as possible) to avoid moving other characters to different blocks (I even proposed [fort dumping mechanic that avoided this]), and that its benefit is so small for the coding effort involved. Mall raids are already a smorgashboard for ferals, so I don't see the point of arguing it helps feed them there.  Swiers 21:37, 1 September 2008 (BST)

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Private homes

Timestamp:	Nequa 17:18, 30 August 2008 (BST)
Type:	new building.
Scope:	anybody how enters it.
Description:	Why does it appear that there are no private homes in Malton? I know its a city and your more likely to find a privat home in the subburbs, but I do know there are private homes in the city. We dont really need private homes but it would add realism to the game. There could also be another benafit. Since anybody could have lived in that house, from a NRA gun nut, to some tech loving nerd, you could find anything in thear. But there should be list of items you could not find in the house. List of items you could NOT find in a house: Necrotech syringe DNA scanner Flak vest (there could be one there, but it seems hard to belive) fire ax Also here is the describtion you would see if you went in the building. -With power: You enter a well lit home, you start to feel like you were before the out break. -With no power: You enter a dark house. -when ruined: You enter a house and notice how everything is thrown apart, which grimly reminds you of what has happend here.

Discussion (Private home)

If I may ask, how long have you been playing the game? --Aeon17x 17:36, 30 August 2008 (BST)

To answer your question, about a week, I have been running around rhodenbank. Let me guess? There are private homes and I have just not found them yet?Nequa 17:39, 30 August 2008 (BST)

There are mansions, and various buildings around the city can be thought of as offices/condominiums, where you can imaging living places in.
There are other reasons why private homes aren't found on the map.

• One is that they're too small, same reason why you don't put a single tree on the map (and for those that are large enough, see mansions).
• Another is that with most survivors just looting around the city and zombie hordes chasing after them, most houses are in such a state of ruin that they are essentially unrecognizable, turning residential districts into wasteland.
• Finally, they are quite insignificant in the grand scale of the survivor-zombie conflict that adding them now three years after the game has launched simply doesn't make the game any more enjoyable or fulfilling than it is before, and frankly it'll only be a waste of time and effort to put them in the game. --Aeon17x 17:51, 30 August 2008 (BST)

Then instead of adding homes how about updating the regular buildings to be more like apartments? Because most buildings have a RP (EX:pubs,police stations,forts) thing you can do with it, but the regular office buildings are boring. Maybe they could add my search idea without the need of a new building type?Nequa 18:19, 30 August 2008 (BST)

Your search idea is horrible. Normal buildings already do not have items; what you're doing here is the opposite in that you can find anything in them, and just for that it will be spammed. As for your roleplaying bit, that will take a much lower priority than improving UD gameplay, especially when you consider there is a suitable alternative (once again, mansions, and normal buildings aren't too shabby -- just add some decorations) and multiple other possible roleplaying locations. --Aeon17x 18:30, 30 August 2008 (BST)

There's no private homes because the private homes are usually at the outskirts of a city, and what we have in Malton...Is the big city. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 19:16, 30 August 2008 (BST)

I usually just think of the street blocks as containing such houses. - User:Whitehouse 19:52, 30 August 2008 (BST)

Private homes are not really appropriate to the game. They can be assumed to exist on many blocks... because it's generally accepted that the block description refers to the most prominent or most utilised building on the block...

But... yeah... Nequa... please play the game for a while before posting suggestion ideas. Hang out and read this page for a while. And start playing some zombies, PKers, death cultists, whatever, as well a survivors. And join a good group or three. Barhah.com is a great board, and though it's zombie-centric, everyone is welcome. Beerhah.com is a good place to go for survivor stuff. Anyhoooo... back to suggestions stuff... --WanYao 20:47, 30 August 2008 (BST)

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Dump dead bodies from dark buildings

Timestamp:	Kolechovski 20:48, 28 August 2008 (BST)
Type:	Restoring normal ability
Scope:	Dead bodies and dark buildings
Description:	Under current game mechanics, you can’t dump dead bodies from dark buildings. How does this make any sense? You can get in and out of the building, even through Free Running, yet somehow you can no longer remove dead bodies? Or do the exits magically close somehow when you try to remove someone? Currently, you can see anyone hiding in the shadows of very dark buildings, but you can’t see/dump dead bodies. Even if you just killed the thing, you somehow can’t find its body, even though you’d be tripping all over it!? Once again, it doesn’t make sense. Only once you light up the place does it become possible to dump the dead. Since I see no reason for it to be physically impossible to find or dump dead bodies, they should always be recognizable and dumpable.

Discussion (Dump dead bodies from dark buildings)

A possible explanation is that people in dark buildings are found and attacked because they're breathing so loudly and their hearts are thumping. Similarly, standing zombies are wheezing. However, dead bodies emit no noise, and if you're tromping through a building hoping to step through a ribcage, you should be spending AP to do so. -- Galaxy125 21:48, 28 August 2008 (BST)

Or because they are fumbling with heavy furniture in the dark to barricade the building, or shooting guns, or...  Swiers 04:48, 29 August 2008 (BST)

Well, how about another take on it. Anyone who dies in the building...if their body is still inside when someone who witnessed the death takes a turn, they notice the body (since it wasn't cleared). The body wouldn't have moved from its original spot that fast.--Kolechovski 20:06, 2 September 2008 (BST)

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Group Bonus

Timestamp:	Squid Boy 16:22, 28 August 2008 (BST)
Type:	Balance change
Scope:	All denizens of Malton who belong to groups
Description:	OK, so while I used the template, I’ve brought this to the discussion page in a fairly informal manner because I don’t pretend to be a programmer and I don’t pretend to know what is possible. I like this idea, but I can see my own problems with it from a technical standpoint – and I’m hoping that others here might be able to help with the solutions on that front. Here’s the basic idea – in the real world groups are much stronger than individuals. People en masse accomplish much more, whether it be construction projects, armies, or lobbying government. Organization has an additive effect to efficacy - pretty much every time. Also – there is a benefit to being part of an organization for humanity. There is community, the transfer of knowledge, the advancement of the overall ends of society. With that in mind, I think there should be an in-game bonus for group activity. This will encourage folks to join groups, which in turn will raise the overall level of gameplay across Malton. This bonus would apply to ANY group working in concert – be in human, PK’er, death cultist, or zombie – so there are no powering issues between warring factions – only a power difference between the grouped and the ungrouped. Given there are few restrictions to joining or forming groups, the ungrouped would hardly become a put-upon constituency. So how to do it? Originally, I thought a simple tiered bonus for group size measured by the number of folks who have a common group name in their profiles. Say a 5% to-hit/search/cading bonus for folks part of groups from 25-49 members, and maybe 7.5% for 50-74 members, and 10% for over 75 members. The problem there would be that it encourages a new form of zerging. Folks would make “Group Scarecrows” that they would park far away from active group activity, but who have the group name in their profile. They’d technically not be in violation of alt abuse, and it would be very hard for group leaders to prevent, and of course the incentive would be to do it. So, I am wondering if the UD engine would be able to detect proximity effects and award bonuses that way? In this case, I’d lower the numbers required for the bonuses a lot – say 10-24 for the 5% bonus, 25-39 for the 7.5% bonus, and 40+ for the 10% bonus – and say that if you’ve got that many folks operating in one XX block radius, you get the bonus. Is such possible? If so, I think it would reward all the right behaviors in this game, and be pretty darn cool. My parameters are suggestions - they could be lowered, raised, modified. I am really interested first and foremost what folks think of the concept, THEN hammering out rational details that might actually be taken to voting. So, first "Is there a reasonable way this could work?" then "Would we want it if it could?" then "How exactly should it work?" What do you think?

Discussion Group Bonus

I'd vote kill, simply because you are not given a hidden bonus in real life from being in a group. Moral boost, maybe. But the rest you accomplish by working closely with your group. - User:Whitehouse 16:34, 28 August 2008 (BST)

Impossible. proximity detection would kill the server. Assume a 5 block radius, the game would have to, on every action, harvest information on userlists for 81 blocks (inside and out), run zerg detection routines on that information, and it would have to then count the number in the group. Now, imagine this happening to the server 30,000+ times a day. You would basically increasing server load more than a hundredfold all up (Quite probably by a factor of well over a thousand). As for the rest, without proximity detection, it collapses under the obvious zerg abuse you mentioned. Proximity detection is a myth, despite claiims to the contrary. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 16:41, 28 August 2008 (BST)

I think Grim_s is right - without some radical reorg of the account system it's just not possible. I was hoping some genius might have a work-around, but I bet he's right that there isn't one. Whitehouse - thanks for the comment - but I disagree with you. In real life you DO get the bonus - the door opens for the AARP in Washington that would never open for the unaligned individual. The group can clear a forest while the individual could spend a lifetime chopping a grove. I think it's moot though. --Squid Boy 16:59, 28 August 2008 (BST)

Even if possible, the advantage to being in a group should come from coordinating with other group members to do difficult tasks that an individual couldn't do. You get a big advantage from being in a well-organised group. You don't deserve an advantage from a bunch of people all spelling the group name correctly. This suggestion is a reward for crap metagaming, which we don't need. Garum 17:24, 28 August 2008 (BST)

You misunderstood my point. And Garum probably phrased it better than me. You get those advantages from working together, not from simply being in a group (at least not the type of advantages you were thinking of). Being in a group is a moral boost, working together with it creates results far better than that of individuals. - User:Whitehouse 17:34, 28 August 2008 (BST)

Oh I see, you're saying that giving an incentive for group behavior beyond already existing benefits doesn't have merit. OK, thanks. Fair enough.--Squid Boy 17:45, 28 August 2008 (BST)

If you want to encourage group work, then find ways for groups to work better together instead of just giving people buffs for having the same group tag. Zombie hordes have scent death, recently someone suggested a way for zombies to sniff out their buddies. Such suggestions, which strengthen the ties of a group, will give good results, the good results are the incentive. - User:Whitehouse 18:50, 28 August 2008 (BST)

Technical details aside, this simply isn't appropriate. This is an RPG, and in RPGs the benefits of groups are simply those of multiple players co-operating. When members of a group communicate and co-operate, they are more effective. If they don't, then they aren't- just like real life.  Swiers 20:07, 28 August 2008 (BST)

i haveno clue about all the technical aspects, but this just isnt a good suggestion. kinda sucks to be on of those people who likes to stay unaffiliated, cause they get screwed on the deal.--Themonkeyman11 17:19, 29 August 2008 (BST)

If this was implemented, it would be possible for a user, for example, to put the name of a large group into their profile, and get all the benefits, without being a member of the group. --Jared^{Talk W! P!} 21:45, 29 August 2008 (BST)

This is illogical. The only bonus people should recive from being in a group is having someone to cover their back. No magic bonuses. No special abilities. Just that. --BoboTalkClown 02:48, 30 August 2008 (BST)

Take a look at Nexus War for group mechanics. The main problem is that ANYONE can be in ANY group at ANY time.-Pesatyel 06:04, 2 September 2008 (BST)

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Restaurants

Timestamp:	Anotherpongo 15:12, 26 August 2008 (BST)
Type:	New building
Scope:	People who take notice of buildings
Description:	If Malton has pubs, it really should have at least a few fancy restaurants, which could potentially replace a few of the pubs in the richer areas of town. The Maltonians can't all have only ever eaten/drunk beer, peanuts and crisps outside of their homes. Mechanics Restaurant Dark building Can be barricaded, ransacked, ruined and have equipment installed normally. Internal description Unpowered You are standing inside an abandoned restaurant. The once-busy dining area lies in darkness. Powered You are standing inside an abandoned restaurant. Ransacked You are standing inside an abandoned restaurant. The chairs and tables are overturned, and cutlery and napkins litter the floor. Search rates (normal, if dark condition were not applied) Knife (3%) (kitchen knives) Wine (6%) (the finest in town) Mobile Phone (1%) (some careless people...) Menu (6%) (Flavour item, when used displays "The menu reads: <random fancy dishes>", and flavour text "You think about them hungrily" (currency not specified).) Clothing a chef's hat (white) (obviously) an apron (white/black) (waiters) standard generic formalwear (maitre d'hôtel, sommelier, general higher-ranking service staff)

Discussion (Restaurants)

Can we have one at the corner of the map? We shall call it, "The Restaurant at the End of Malton"... :3 --Aeon17x 16:44, 26 August 2008 (BST)

I don't see why not --Diablor 01:53, 27 August 2008 (BST)

*Whines* Pubs (Arms) aren't fancy enough for you?
Mah Pubs not fancy enough for you, foo? Only if there is a Pub at the end of the world.. Already.. _■^■ 02:51, 27 August 2008 (BST)

I like it, but I think the menu should be just like a newspaper with different flavour text. For that matter, would newspapers be suitable to be found here? I Am Sabbo 03:07, 27 August 2008 (BST)

A dark restaurant? Dunno about where you're from but around here people put big ass windows on restaurants coz ppl like to see outside...also a stupid idea. Pointless and you would have to think up some ridiculous way to explain why everyone in malton thought it was a pub but it turned out to be a restaurant.--xoxo 04:54, 27 August 2008 (BST)

It was always a restaurant and nobody ever thought it was a pub. And 2+2 has always equalled 5. And we have always been at war with Eurasia. And darkness really depends on the restaurant, but good point. --Anotherpongo^Where? 11:45, 27 August 2008 (BST)

Not pointless. Knives are the best weapons for newbies, yet malls are the only places with > 1% chance of finding them. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 12:02, 27 August 2008 (BST)

As much as I hate suggestions that don't seem to solve any problems, we do need a TRB for knives, and this seems like a great way to do it. Techercizer ^(Food) _(TSoE) 16:33, 27 August 2008 (BST)

Absolutely! TRP for knives, and logical and fun flavor. --UCFSD 17:17, 27 August 2008 (BST)

a suggestion so simple that it makes sence lol i say yea bring on the restaurants!--Fanglord2 02:37, 28 August 2008 (BST)

I Always vote for building suggestions-always love a change Linkthewindow 09:46, 28 August 2008 (BST)

Vote all you like, I'm pretty sure a building change suggestion has never been implemented. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 10:04, 29 August 2008 (BST)

Kevan has talked about doing it before_{(it's in his talk page archives for those curious few)}, it's not entirely out of the question.--Karek^maps?! 08:51, 31 August 2008 (BST)

Building changes not implemented? Dark? Ruin? Fixing the fort walls? Its not without precedent.--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 12:46, 31 August 2008 (BST)

He meant changing one building (type) into another building (type). The first significant building change was to make large buildings into "1" building, but they were ALL still the same building to begin with.--Pesatyel 06:05, 2 September 2008 (BST)

I'll concede that the forts were revamped from just the armoury building to the 9-block compounds that they are now, but as far as I'm aware that wasn't based on a player suggestion. Large buildings and walls changed how some buildings worked, not what type of building they were per se. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 19:46, 4 September 2008 (BST)

I like this suggestion.--Themonkeyman11 17:16, 29 August 2008 (BST)

Asum(awesome)!!! Lol! --BoboTalkClown

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Face Rot

Timestamp:	RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 15:21, 23 August 2008 (BST)
Type:	Zombie Skill, subskill of brain rot.
Scope:	Zombies with Brain Rot.
Description:	The rot has spread, now it shrivels and distorts the facial features. The person underneath is hard to recognise. In game terms, its a buff for zombie anonymity. Unless the zombie is in your contacts you cannot recognise him if. He stands up Destroys barricades/equipment Kills or injures. His profile can still be gained through a successful scan, or if you recognise them via your contacts. (You could be familiar with his limp, a watch or other item, his groaning etc.)

Discussion (Face Rot)

Go on. Savage it, like my horribly ruined features. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 15:21, 23 August 2008 (BST)

I like it, what better way to implement Zombie Anonymity than through a skill? Plus. it promotes the Brain Rot! :D --/~Rakuen~\^Talk I Still Love Grim 18:54, 23 August 2008 (BST)

How would this work when they're alive? --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 19:38, 23 August 2008 (BST)

Then their profile just states they look like Gary Busey --{User:Galaxy125/Sig}}20:52, 23 August 2008 (BST)

Bloody Brilliant!!! --BoboTalkClown 22:27, 23 August 2008 (BST)

Good, apart from one thing. How do you explain not being able to recognise a corpse you just saw die when it stands up. This case would only be when you are in the same location for the period of time in which a character dies and rises (in the case of first being a survivor which is recognisable to all anyway). Explanation could be that the face rot while cleared up by the revivification effect while alive, takes hold again almost instantaneous. But that still wouldn't change the fact that you saw that body die and rise, thereby knowing exactly who it was. - User:Whitehouse 23:36, 23 August 2008 (BST)

A good idea, except that Whitehouse's point might need addressing. How do looks change so quickly? ~Ariedartin • Talk • A KS J abt all 06:22, 24 August 2008 (BST)

I don't like this idea. It's balanced and innovative but it disregards the true zombie mentality. Yes, I love zombie anonymity. But I am always in the belief that true zombie characters should be willing to do the *above* three actions and have their anonymity threatened to whoever wants to use it, in order to succeed their goal. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 12:04, 24 August 2008 (BST)

Interesting points. I'm off to make a ridiculous suggestion, and I'll think about this. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 14:24, 24 August 2008 (BST)

In relation to Whitehouses point. How about an extra piece of text like. "Blah killed Example, their face decomposes before your eyes. "--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 12:37, 25 August 2008 (BST)

I saw no one pointed it out and I have a feeling you'll actually check before suggesting this. This isn't actually a buff to zombies, this is removing the one way in which zombie groups generally recruit. I like the idea of starting to get zombie anonymity back, it never should have left but, this hurts them, especially because survivors still get all the workarounds they want/use while zombies now have absolutely no way of knowing who to go to for help/advice/etc.--Karek^maps?! 09:07, 31 August 2008 (BST)

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Suggestions up for voting

Body Dumping Paranoia in the Dark

Moved to Suggestion talk:20080831 Body Dumping Paranoia in the Dark as suggestion is up for voting. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 15:17, 31 August 2008 (BST)

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Nurse

Moved to voting, under the new name of Doctor's Clinic

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Cellphone Auto-Response & GPS Bluetooth

Moved to Suggestion talk:20080827 Cellphone Auto-Response & GPS Bluetooth as suggestion is up for voting.  Swiers 00:03, 28 August 2008 (BST)

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Dead Reckoning

Moved to Suggestion_talk:20080826_Dead_Reckoning as suggestion is up for voting.  Swiers 09:46, 26 August 2008 (BST)

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