Developing Suggestions

Developing Suggestions

This section is for presenting and reviewing suggestions which have not yet been submitted and are still being worked on.

Nothing on this page will be archived.

Further Discussion

• Discussion concerning this page takes place here.
• Discussion concerning the suggestions system in general, including policies about it, takes place here.

Please Read Before Posting

• Be sure to check The Frequently Suggested List and the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots before you post your idea. You can read about many ideas that have been suggested already, which users should be aware of before posting what could be a dupe: a duplicate of an existing suggestion. These include Machine Guns and Sniper Rifles.
• Users should be aware that page is discussion oriented. Other users are free to express their own point of view and are not required to be neutral.
• It is recommended that users spend some time familiarizing themselves with this page before posting their own suggestions.
• After new game updates, users are requested to allow time for the game and community to adjust to these changes before suggesting alterations.

How To Make a Suggestion

Adding a New Suggestion

• Copy the code in the box below.
• Click here to begin editing. This is the same as clicking the [edit] link to the right of the Suggestions header.

• Paste the copied text above the other suggestions, right under the heading.
• Substitute the text in RED CAPITALS with the details of your suggestion.

{{subst:DevelopingSuggestion
|time=~~~~
|name=SUGGESTION NAME
|type=TYPE HERE
|scope=SCOPE HERE
|description=DESCRIPTION HERE
}}

• Name - Give the suggestion a short but descriptive name.
• Type is the nature of the suggestion, such as a new class, skill change, balance change, etc. Basically: What is it? and Is it new, or a change?
• Scope is who or what the suggestion affects. Typically survivors or zombies (or both), but occasionally Malton, the game interface or something else.
• Description should be a full explanation of your suggestion. Include information like flavor text, search odds, hit percentages, etc, as appropriate. Unless you are as yet unsure of the exact details behind the suggestion, try not to leave out anything important. Check you spelling and grammar.

Cycling Suggestions

• Suggestions with no new discussion in the past two days should be given a warning notice. This can be done by adding {{SDW|date}} at the top of the discussion section, where date is the day the suggestion will be removed.
• Suggestions with no new discussion in the past week may be removed.
• If you are adding a comment to a suggestion that has the warning template please remove the {{SDW|date}} at the top of the discussion section to show that there is still ongoing discussion.

This page is prone to breaking when the page gets too long, so sometimes suggestions still under discussion will be moved to the Overflow page, so the discussion can continue.

Suggestions in Overflow: No suggestions currently in overflow.

Please add new suggestions to the top of the list

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Suggestions

Bull Rush

Timestamp: Fixxxer 09:41, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Type: New Skill

Scope: A new skill that survivors might use directly against zombies

Description: A problem I have noticed as a survivor is when barricades come down and zombies come in and wreck a little havoc, but then run out of AP and just stand around, forcing the survivors to either barricade the zombies in with them or leave the building un-barricaded with the doors wide open in the hope that the zombies will decide to go for a stroll outside. With this skill, a survivor would potentially be able to charge a zombie and bull rush it out of the building through an open door, rather than having to attack it until it drops and then boot the body outside. I would suggest a 30% chance of success, with a 70% chance that the survivor loses his grip on the zombie, which stays indoors while he ends up out in the street. Either way, I would suggest that the survivor end up outside as well, though with an open door and no barricades, he could rush back inside and begin barricading. I would also suggest that this action consume 2AP (one for grabbing the zombie and one for shoving it through the door). The key thing to note here is that this is only possible in an un-barricaded building with the doors standing open. This is meant as a sort of emergency action to (hopefully) get a zombie or two out of the building so it can be safely barricaded or repaired, not as a combat maneuver to injure the zombie.

Discussion (Bull Rush)

Now that you got this here, I suggest you withdraw your actual suggestion. There should be instructions for it around here somewhere. :/ -- High Overlord and Lead Conspirator of the Administrative Rebellion. Want help? 09:44, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Fair enough. I'm interested in dialog that explains why this skill would be so bad. Thus far, I've been told that it's bad because it costs less overall AP than shooting the zombie until it falls down, then dumping the body. However, I would point out that you get no AP for using this skill AND that it has a limited actual usefulness because it can only be used inside a building that has no barricades and the doors are open. Lastly, it doesn't cost the zombie any AP, so it doesn't have to use up AP before it starts tearing your barricades down again. Fixxxer 09:57, 1 August 2009 (BST)

So? Your average high-level human won't care about lack of XP anyway, so that doesn't really matter. As I said on the page, it pretty much nerfs shooting and CR-ing as whenever you want to kill a zombie, the zombie will be inside a unbarricaded building with open doors. The whole point of killing a zombie is not to kill it per se, but to remove it from the building so you can start barricading again with no penalty. This skill allows you to remove a zombie without having to search for any items.

Thanks, however for taking the criticism on the suggestion page well (and not throwing a fit like other users do.) With a bit more practice, you'll be making peer reviewed suggestions in no time :). Be sure to read FS and S/DDN before submitting again ;).

Finally, you withdrew your suggestion wrongly - you don't simply blank the page, you've to to add a template (and not blank the page.) I'll fix it for you now. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:49, 1 August 2009 (BST)

I appreciate that. Thank you. --Fixxxer 20:27, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Silly harmanz with silly suggestions. If you bull rush me, I will be eating your face.--Agunin_Anoven 10:13, 1 August 2009 (BST)

How very, very helpful. --Fixxxer 10:40, 1 August 2009 (BST)

You get used to it soon enough. We're all just one big hateful family around here. :) -- High Overlord and Lead Conspirator of the Administrative Rebellion. Want help? 10:56, 1 August 2009 (BST)

At the very least, such a skill would need to require the zombie to be brought down to low HP before being bullrushed out of the building, the same way that only survivors at 12 or less HP can be dragged out of wide open buildings. But I think that has been suggested before -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 13:15 1 August 2009 (BST)

That sounds fair. If the zombie is below X number of hit points, you have a chance at pushing it outside. What if we further took Devorac's advice into consideration, but instead of giving a bonus for having the Bodybuilding skill, we made Bodybuilding a requirement to get Bull Rush in the first place? --Fixxxer 20:27, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Hmm... what about this, You can only bullrush a zombie that has less HP than you do, and it will cost an extra 1 (possibly 2 for balance reasons) AP per ten health the zombie has (minimum of 1 extra AP cost), plus another AP if the zombie has rotting flesh. I think this reflects that the zombie is struggling instead of just placidly being led away. This also helps to slightly level out the huge difference between rushing, and killing the zombie with a conventional weapon. Also after the survivor has performed this move he/she should also be outside with said zombie, so add another AP to get back inside. It is also possible to reduce the cost of the rush if the survivor had the bodybuilding skill, as that would -if this really happened- be quite helpful. -Devorac 19:00, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Too helpful; Zombies are players too, and giving survivors to insta-remove any zombie without preparation makes any weapon useless. Either this would nerf every survivor tool against zombies in existence, or it would be useless; those are the only two outcomes. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:50, 1 August 2009 (BST)

*Shrugs* I agree... but it's still a fun concept. -Devorac 21:14, 1 August 2009 (BST)

First of all, I think this might be a dupe. Looks familiar. Secondly, to the author use a colon to indent your post if your responding to someone, its helpful. I'll see if I can find the dupe.--Pesatyel 21:36, 1 August 2009 (BST)

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FaceBook Application

Timestamp: —The preceding Template:Wikipedia comment was added by Supertrooper101 (talk • contribs) 06:11, 1 August 2009.

Type: Game Play

Scope: {{{scope}}}

Description: I beleive it would bring more players, ideas, and donation money to the site if it was some how linked into or through facebook. Face book has a HUGE base of users who only own a facebook for the time consuming of applications. Now wether u plan on just linking it through or even a special Mini Facebook Battle With its own map, charcters, weapons, and ect.. i for one beleive it would take off very quickly due to the fact that many of ur curent users undoubtly have a facebook and would be very willing to help the expansion of it across facebook to new users. I would love to see a new facebook type urban dead from u guys, cause u have created a game so simple but yet so addictive, i think its time to step it up to the next level. Thank you for ur time! i really hope u think about this one! :D

Discussion (FaceBook Application)

I don't like how this uses "u" and "ur" instead of, you know, actual words. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 07:34, 1 August 2009 (BST)

u didnt sign ur pst you n00b. gb2fb-- High Overlord and Lead Conspirator of the Administrative Rebellion. Want help? 08:35, 1 August 2009 (BST)

So basically a mini-game on Facebook that promotes the main game? I don't use Facebook at all, but since this will just be a promontion for the game, why not just make some UD-related images that people can stick on their profile. Promotes the game, without the time and effort this would involve. And Boberton is right, chatspeak is bad. It's not a lot more effort to type two extra letters, and makes your suggestion look a lot more professional and readable. Linkthewindow  Talk  08:38, 1 August 2009 (BST)

I suggest that this user learns how to fucking spell "you" instead of "u", Take your dumb oneth grader spelling style back to school. Not only is spelling "you" like "u" not cool, it kills babies. as for the suggestion, ya sure whatever, facebook and myspace need ud like soo much dude fuck ya dude give em some ud and let em play it. ud man.--Agunin_Anoven 10:19, 1 August 2009 (BST)

For the second time this week: This page is for suggesting ways to improve Urban Dead, not for suggesting new apps for your qPhones or Stalkerbook. If you want a mini Urban Dead for Facebook or think it's a good idea, then get a team together, talk copyright with Kevan, and make one yourself. Please, for the love of Kevan and the suggestions process as a whole, read the Suggestions Dos and Don'ts before you post... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:36, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Using facebook to expand the UD player base is a good idea but making it into an app you can play through just isn't my cup of tea, it's browser based, not a Facebook/iPhone/.exe/.deb/ application. --Kamikazie-Bunny 17:11, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Okay, I'm sorry that I'm not giving you any useful feedback here but hey. First off you apparently missed the line of the wiki that said "your suggestion is only as smart as you make it sound". Second, as you are suggesting something in a mildly professional atmosphere DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE CHATSPEAK! It makes you look like not only a goober, but a goober who doesn't really care enough to make his idea clean and well polished looking. Third, Spell check everything. The misspelled words were even worse than the chatspeak, they completely derailed me from the idea itself. Sorry if I sound harsh, but still, when you post here this is supposed to be a testing ground for real suggestions. You post something that looks like that as a suggestion and they will rip you apart with kill votes so fast your head will still be spinning next week, and a portion of them would vote kill for no other reason than the fact that your spelling/grammar are... sub-par. -Devorac 19:10, 1 August 2009 (BST)

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Pipe Bombs

Timestamp: Devorac 07:44, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Type: New Weapon

Scope: Survivors, Siege War

Description: Alright, there has without a doubt been some sort of explosive suggested for malton before, they failed for a number of reasons. First: the famous multiply by a billion rule kicks God AOE weapons right out. Second: Sheer overpower, if you can manufacture a grenade for 3 AP then throw it and 25 Damage on a hit, and 15 an a miss to a zombie things will get bad for zombies, and unbalance the game horrifically. Last but not least, they give survivors a weapon that zombies have no effective counter measure, or equivalent attack. However what I propose should hopefully take the first and second reasons into consideration, as well as balancing the weapon so that the last is not so much of an issue. I give you, the pipe bomb! Base Damage: 10 on a "hit" to the zombie it was thrown at, and 5 damage to 5 other zombies (or survivors depending on who you throw it at). on a "Miss" it will deal 5 damage to the target zombie (or survivor) and deal 3 damage to 3 other zombies (or survivors). Encumberance: 12% of total (see below for reason) Base accuracy: 10% to get a direct "hit" on the target. Upgraded to hit: None for now, although I might ask that body building give a slight boost in my revised version. Special Abilities: It does damage even on a miss roll. (see above) By now your probably thinking something along the lines of, "man I'm hungry", or perhaps you are thinking that you are thirsty but I don't care about that right now. As you can see the above solves the problem of the multiply by a billion rule by adding a max number of affected targets as well as keeping the damage down to a moderate level. What it does not solve is the fact that it will always hurt something, and if you could spam these out a single survivor could conceivably kill 50 zombies in a single turn. (as long as they were all together.) So instead of having pipe bombs being found in certain buildings, pipe bombs should be made. Requisite materials for pipe bomb Construction: 1 metal Pipe, 5 shotgun shells, cellphone, toolbox (not consumed by process), construction skill. As you can see the ap cost for gathering the materials is quite high, above 20 AP to gather the ingredients together (that's using a mall to get the phone and the shells) plus another AP to throw the thing, by then you've earned it. However to prevent people from just sitting around making these and going nuts with them it should be given a relatively high encumbrance 10-15% not so much reflecting its weight as the care it has to be treated with. Will it still be balanced? Yes I think so, at roughly 20+ AP to gather the materials + its encumbrance I think it would be a slightly underpowered weapon. Hey but you just said it would be balanced! It will! I predict that the Pipe bomb will become a favorite of PKers, and griefers who will be drawn to the hit and run tactics of the thing (that and the potential massacre). While this may not seem like a good thing it balances the weapon by letting it run just as hot against survivors who make them! If their is anything that I have not addressed or problems that you have, please let me know. I think this will work, and with a bit of feedback I'm sure my wide eyed optimism will be thwarted, but I'll still keep plugging along. So help me here, see what I can't and show me the stupid stuff so I can fix it.

Discussion (Pipe Bombs)

No area-of-effect attacks. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 07:48, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Is that a hard and fast law, or just because its never been done before? By the way how do I get this to look normal? (first suggestion) -Devorac 07:53, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Use colons to get it to indent properly. And it is a hard and fast law, and it's never been done before, because it's ridiculously overpowered. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 07:55, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Laws can be bent, after all this AOE does a MAX of 35 Damage and that is over all targets it could possibly effect, on a perfect roll. It is 90% likely to do only 14 damage total! That and it costs more than 20 AP to make, if anything it's underpowered. -Devorac 08:02, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Only 14 damage... as a guaranteed minimum? lolno. BTW, it has been thought of before -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:47 29 July 2009 (BST)

Yes only 14 damage 5 to target 3 to 3 others. Think of it this way, if you spent the 20 AP gathering Shotguns and shotgun Ammo at a mall, you could easily do 100 Damage in a single turn. No it's not overpowered, just new. Yes Item combining has been though of before, much in the same way that using electrolysis to process aluminum was though of before they found a way to make it work. This is quite a bit different in terms of effort, and damage. -that and 25 damage to a single target is way too high, thats 2 shotgun blasts and a pistol round- Is there any way to get field testing? (to prove that this is not overpowered)-Devorac 18:35, 29 July 2009 (BST)

It's overpowered and new. Searching in a lit mall with both mall skills gives you about a 65% find rate, and with half of that being shotguns (may be off), you'd get about 33% of your AP's worth in shotgun munitions. That is to say, for 20 AP spent, maybe 6 or 7 shells - which comes out to 48-70 damage. Oh, and it's expensive to reload, they're heavy, and thus you can't carry a whole lot at once unless you only take shotguns. So, it comes out to maybe 25-30 AP spent to find 48-70 raw damage. With 65% to hit, that's about 31 to 45 damage. Now for zombies! With all the hand skills, we'll say the hit chance is 55% (with grasp's bonus intermittently) - so for 25 AP spent, that's 3 * .55 * 25 (or 30) = ~41 (or ~50) damage. Zombies also don't have to run to malls to search, especially when there might not be any in survivor hands for a long ways around. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 21:07, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Even by what you just said the pipe bomb is not over powered (unless you are saying the shotgun is also overpowered), the shotguns will do an average damage of 31-45 DAM like you said, the pipe bomb will do 14 DAM (over 4 targets) nine out of ten times, on the tenth time it does 35 DAM (over 6 targets), the same as the high end of the shotgun average. By your argument the shotgun is more overpowered than the pipe bomb, which leads to the inevitable question of "If an existing weapon is already more powerful, why should a specialized weapon be kicked under the pretext that it is overpowered?" And you have also neatly answered my concerns as to if this would be unfair to zombies, and as their Average Damage for the AP spent is higher than the pipe bomb it would seem that the answer is no, thank you I will definitely use that calculation in the finished proposal. -Devorac 23:46, 29 July 2009 (BST)

It's overpowered because it's an area-of-effect attack that always hits as well. Imagine three people, loaded with the things after a week's worth of stocking, attacking a mall. Not to mention the ridiculous XP gains you'd get if you managed to land a ton of killing blows at once. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 23:55, 29 July 2009 (BST)

Max XP gain if the Pipe Bomb did MAX damage and killed everyone it affected 95XP Chance of that happening= Near nil. Probable XP gain for a MAX damage grenade 35, and you would gain 14 XP for a miss (which would be 90% of the time) To answer the mall question, the resulting destruction Would be less than that of three people with shotguns that had been stocking up for a week. Here are more detailed figures, A person can carry a max of 16 Shotguns each with 2 shells loaded, that comes to 240 Maximum Damage. At a 65% Chance to hit that comes to 156 probable Damage. that's 720 MAX damage for or 468 Probable Damage if you have 3 people. You can carry a maximum of 7 Pipe bombs (Encumbrance of 12% plus you have to have a toolbox to make them) that's 245 Maximum damage, at 90% chance to do only 14 total Damage, that comes to around 104-124 probable Damage. Making 3 people able to deal 735 MAX damage, or 3 people able to deal 312-342 probable damage. Can you still say that it is overpowered? This begs the question, "okay if shotguns are more effective then use them and stop bugging us". The answer is that during a siege when using conventional weapons you are forced to target a zombie one at a time, kill one move on, kill one move on, and so forth. If you have a couple of people with grenades you can damage swaths of zombies, you wouldn't be able to kill them easily but you can damage them so that people with more focused firearms can clear more quickly. For normal use on groups of less than five zombies this weapon is utterly underpowered, it is a specialists tool for siege wars. make sense? (You have to remember that it will only effect 6 zombies total on a perfect shot, while it will effect only 4 90% of the time.) -Devorac 00:49, 30 July 2009 (BST)

So maybe it's not as overpowered as I once thought - but then you have to answer another question that plagues new weapons: if it's not better, why would people ever use it? Especially if it's very underpowered? --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 00:52, 30 July 2009 (BST)

So they can yell "Fire in the Hole" without looking like a Doofus! --Honestmistake 01:30, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Lol Honest, yeah trenchies would love this one. Bob, I already answered that in my last post. I realize that I am a little prolific with my text, but still do try to read all of it, it's a pain to repost. However I will quote and clarify for you, "it is a specialists tool for siege wars." In a siege conventional Firearms lock onto one zombie and will only damage that single zombie until the zombie has been killed or the zombie moves away, this tactic presents a number of problems. First, mid level zombie can recover from being shot dead for only 1-5 AP, this can make clearing a building/area horrifically difficult. Second, You have to have a large number of survivors working together to take down an area controlled by more than 10 zombies, and even then it is a maneuver that takes considerable co-ordination to do properly. Third, With conventional weapons it is nigh impossible to weaken an entire group of zombies at once. Pipe Bombs are special tools that are used in everyday sieges/clearing buildings, where they are part of group tactics. With a pipe bomb you can damage multiple zombies at once. (Target zombie= 3-5 random others) This is a useful tactic because you can blast the zombies till they are severely weakened, then regroup get enough conventional weapons to kill the zombie/survivor group in one swoop then throw the corpses out of the building, while zombies can get back up easily, healing is more difficult for them. This allows a 1 person to make a difference in a siege, while also letting small groups become dramatically more effective at softening up and retaking buildings. For PKers and death cultist they are of a different use entirely, drop one in a building and the occupants will have to use 4 faks to heal a minimal blast, and 7 faks to heal the perfect blast. Making them an astonishingly effective weapon at diminishing survivor defense forces. NOTICE I do NOT in the least condone Pking or griefing, but those are acceptable way to play the game, and you have to consider anything new from all possible angles. Do you understand what it's for now? *might also consider giving it heightened damage against transmitters and generators in the final proposal* And personally, I consider this proposal to have already achieved a small but important victory, I have convinced you that AOE are not by definition overpowered. *salutes* And so even If this one fails -and I will fight for its success to the end- I will have at least gotten a foot in the door for others. -Devorac 02:29, 30 July 2009 (BST)

only if you add somthing like the survivors have to shoot the pipe bomb with a flare and they only have a .00000000000001 chance of hitting it. then i might say ya, let the humans have bombs and stuff.--Agunin_Anoven 04:24, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Err, the phone's a bit odd (though I get why it's important), but with your legitimate explanation of uses, I see no major flaws in this idea; I wouldn't buff it with bodybuilding though. One thing that might need to be reconsidered is the selective targeting aspect though; I'm not sure whether it might go over better if you made it so that a grenade can hit zombies or survivors regardless of who it's targeted at... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 04:38, 30 July 2009 (BST)

@Agunin, There is already a detonator attached to the bomb, no need to shoot it with the flare. (Also please try to keep the input meaningful, sarcasm is rarely constructive) LeLouch, The reason I have it so that you throw it at one group or the other is because if this was real, the survivors would probably not be getting cozy with the zombie,. You should have survivors on one side and shambling rotting horde on the other. Although it might be a good addition if it could accidentally damage a survivor who was trapped in an entangling grasp with a zombie, that would make sense after all. I would as much as possible like the final Suggestion to be as believable as possible, so that it isn't jarring. (I.E there is an old idea for making a pipe bomb out of a length of pipe and a pistol clip, I mean really how in blue blazes are you supposed to set it off?) Thanks for both the idea, and the first positive view on the suggestion so far, kudos to you! -Devorac 08:04, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Ok NO BOMBS. PERIOD. you guys have guns and guns and flares and tools and all kinds of shit to survive. Why the fuck do you need bombs. no fucking bombs. there are you fucking happy? Is this more constructive? --Agunin_Anoven 09:23, 30 July 2009 (BST)

To make this truly fair it would have to have a chance to hurt both sides regardless of intent. I would suggest weighing it 3:1 in favour of the target side. That is count each zombie as 3 potential targets and each survivor as 1 then randomly select your actual targets from that list. --Honestmistake 11:14, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Or randomly select targets from a list of all in the building with a 3:1 bias towards the targeted side, if that isn't what you were already suggesting. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:04, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Exactly what I was suggesting (the original target should still not be random though.) --Honestmistake 17:55, 30 July 2009 (BST)

Alright that makes perfect sense, shrapnel is rarely predictable and a 3 to 1 ration will keep down groups of people from spamming these. It shouldn't effect you though, after all you know where you threw it and you should be able to duck and cover. I will certainly incorporate that in the final version. @Agunin, No that is not really much more constructive. Since you decided to go into what survivors have, let's go into what zombies have, vampiric life regeneration, the most efficient damage to total AP spent with claws, the ability to restore all health for 1-6 AP if you die, an infectious bite, the ability to sense whoever just hit you, the ability to call out to all zombies around you, the ability to drag people out onto streets, the ability to ruin buildings, and you never ever have to reload. Have I missed anything? Also, I wrote this, I am trying to be as civil as possible, the least you can do is stop swearing like a one-eyed carpenter. -Devorac 00:01, 31 July 2009 (BST)

You forgot to mention that zombies have far more fun that survivors when both are maxed.... Survivors are easier to level but have piss all to do once therer, zombies just find they have become more efficient at playing their role. its why maxed zombies rarely kil other zombies and most PKers are maxed survivors! --Honestmistake 00:15, 31 July 2009 (BST)

I did at that, thank you for bringing that to light Honest. That is precisely why I keep a maxed rotter zombie, it gets almost frustrating when you run around and work to repair what the Zombies break, but never get to actually kill anybody for a while, so I go on a brutal killing spree with my zombie from time to time. The pipe bomb adds fun, flavor, and a new dynamic to siege fighting. While it really can't help survivors with their workload it sure makes the coffee break from cading, setting up gennies, transmitters and whatnot a bit more fun. That and it lets the small groups at least put a mark on bigger hordes, and anything that gives a weapon to the underdogs I like. -Devorac 00:27, 31 July 2009 (BST)

The only thing I don't like (and apparently many others) in this is the 100% chance of success. Keep in mind that these things were haphazardly thrown together and have been through who-knows-what before use, so a chance of failure is in order.--Uberursa 01:08, 31 July 2009 (BST)

*Shrugs* perhaps, but that mechanic is absent in a lot of places as well. For instance, guns use ammunition that is 3 years old and has been through absolute hell, -same for the guns themselves really- yet a shotgun will never misfire or jam. However I see your point, If there is a 10% chance of a perfect blast, than there should be an equal and opposite 10% chance of it being a dud and not doing anything whatsoever. (the cellphone battery was dead, the powder was wet, Etc) Does that satisfy your concerns? Also thank you for having real, relevant input. -Devorac 01:23, 31 July 2009 (BST)

I don't have a problem with AOE weapons. I think that's a potential weapon for that game the COULD work. GETTING one to work is different, but there is this in Peer Review. The main problem is they do too much damage (generally). Even this suggestion does. I mean, a miss is a miss. Either you hit and do damage OR you miss. I think for an AOE weapon the best that could be done would be 3 damage max to a max of 5 targets. No more than that.--Pesatyel 03:33, 31 July 2009 (BST)

Please read several of the above posts, they show that shotguns actually have far more destructive potential for killing individuals than the pipe bomb does. The reason I made this weapon do damage on a miss is the old saying "close only counts in grenades and horseshoes", this is quite true. This is in effect a small fragmentation grenade, if thrown in close quarters of a building or city block at a horde of zombies -or a group of survivors- it is almost impossible for it to not do damage to the group you threw it at, unless it fails to detonate (see above. The thought is that if you "miss" then the bomb has hit the ground, or the zombie and has under gone a late detonation and has rolled away a bit, damaging only a few targets. On a perfect blast the grenade explodes while in the air next to the target, dealing more damage to more targets. I would like to hear why you think this weapon is overpowered however as I have done considerable research on weapons (both zombie and human) to make sure that it is not overpowered. -Devorac 04:48, 31 July 2009 (BST)

It isn't strictly about "kiling individuals". Urban Dead is very simplistic. This could be ocnsidered a "ranged" weapon, so you have to compare it to other ranged weapons. The Pistol does medum damage and has medium ammo. The shotgun does high damage and low ammo. The flaregun is a special case given how difficult it is to use. So what does that leave? Low damage high ammo? Not relevant here. First of all, there are NO weapons that "hit on a miss" that's part of the simplicity of Urban Dead. That alone makes this overpowered. Collecting crap to "make" one does not successfully counter the fact you are essentially GUARANTEED 112 XP using only 7 AP in combat. That's 16 XP per AP.--Pesatyel 03:30, 1 August 2009 (BST) Oh, also, while realism is, IMO, a necessary component of every suggestion, sometimes you have to forgo realism for balance (otherwise you would be able to use BOTH barrels at the same time, for example).--Pesatyel 03:33, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Have you modified this during the discussion process? I seem to remember first reading this and thinking there was more to it. Regardless, in its current state it is still Spam worthy. --ϑϑℜ 15:12, 31 July 2009 (BST)

No it is currently in its un-modified state, however a great deal of the finer points of the idea (the ones that will keep it from being Spam) have come out in the discussion posts. once I think it is ready I'll post Pipe Bombs Version 2. That way I can incorporate the new ideas and adjust my thinking accordingly, as well as re-writing the initial proposal to include comparative damage calculations so that I can help stop the knee jerk "AOEs are overpowered" reflex with hard evidence. If you have anything you want to add or change, let me know and I'll see to how people react to it in the next revision. out of curiosity what kind of "more" did you think there was? -Devorac 18:48, 31 July 2009 (BST)

I think Valve beat you to the idea. --YYYEEEAAH7

Really? Can you give me a link to that one? -Devorac 23:37, 31 July 2009 (BST)

He's talking about Left4Dead, which happens to not be a trans-state browser-based MMORPG. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 23:40, 31 July 2009 (BST)

Ah, thank you lelouch, you have saved me from the momentary panic of thinking that there was a suggestion like this that I had missed. I have never played left4dead, hence my ignorance. Once again Kudos to you Le Louche. -Devorac 00:14, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Happy to help; I've also got something planned in the event that people continue to once-off your idea without reading all the support first. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 02:40, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Me likes this idea..... More variety --DOWN WITH THE 'CRATS!!! | Join Nod!!! 00:26, 1 August 2009 (BST)

@pesatyel My apologies for not replying sooner but I totally missed your earlier post about the XP problem. You said that going around finding "crap" does not justify it, but actually it does. Think of it like this, you can carry 7 tops at one time. You will earn an average of 98 XP (not 114 your calculations are off). Yeah that sounds a bit much for 7 AP, but consider the pistol. You can hold 25 Pistols in your inventory at one time, with 6 rounds in each (optimally), so 25*6*5= 750XP max or 487.5 average XP (not counting rotting flesh/flak jacket/ but also not counting bonus kill XP so it evens out). Now that is of course over a great deal more AP than the pipe bomb. However once you have used your 7 pipe bombs odds are that the targeted opponent won't even be dead, and you will be standing there with nothing in your inventory but a toolkit and a foolish expression. The additional 20-30 AP to find ingredients to make the item account for the XP. I mean really, with my shotguns (yes I fight in true trenchie style, even though I am not myself a trenchie.) I can often earn as much or more than 84-119 with 21-31 AP. and that is the cost to make one pipe bomb! Do you understand now? Also I will be working on a zombie weapon with some common characteristics (no, it's not exploding zombies or anything like that) that way the zombaes won't be left out. ;) -Devorac 05:49, 1 August 2009 (BST) PS. @ Le Louche, err... I really hate to sound like an idiot, but I have to ask this. You sent me a message, do I reply to it on my discussion page or your own?

It varies all over the wiki; usually you can do either, as the other party will normally watch your talk page whenever they post on it. Also, I agree that the EXP does seem a bit high, and might earn this idea a few kill votes. Perhaps only giving the user exp for the target he throws the bomb at? I'm not entirely sure. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:40, 1 August 2009 (BST)

I think that would make the XP reward far too low though, although if you doubled the normal XP you would get for that damage that could work. 10XP for a standard miss 20XP for a perfect hit, and of course 0XP for a critical miss. What you are saying makes perfect sense though, you don't get combat experience by watching a zombie get hit in the leg with shrapnel. -Devorac 18:38, 1 August 2009 (BST)

Unfortunately, the author continues to miss my point. NO HITS ON MISSES. It is irrelevant how many more weapons pistols or shotguns you can carry. Want an example:

• Pistol: I've got my 25 pistols. I attack 50 times. I miss 50 times. Net result no AP left, no XP gained.
• Shotgun: I've got my 17 shotguns. I attack 34 times. 1 miss 34 times. Net result, 16 AP left, no XP gained.
• Pipe Bomb: I've got my 7 bombs, I attack 7 times. 1 miss 7 times. Net result 43 AP left, 112 XP gained.

It has NOTHING to do with "potential maximums". Its about guaranteed minimums.--Pesatyel 19:24, 1 August 2009 (BST)

The EXP thing may very well be nerfed way down, and you're forgetting the critical miss situation that results in a dud. Perhaps it would be better if a critical miss also damaged the user for 5-10 HP or something, due to some sort of early explosion? On the other hand, that might be nerfing things too much. If that is the case, however, the result would be 7 attacks, 7 misses, 0 EXP, and death; too weak? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:13, 1 August 2009 (BST)

I don't know if this has been stated yet, but this is not Left 4 Dead. It's Urban Dead. /suggestion -- T^HEL^ORDG^UNS^LINGER 20:22, 1 August 2009 (BST)

@Blackreaper, I have never played left 4 dead, I have no idea what you are talking about, but I am quite curious. @Pesatyel, You say I have missed your point, and yet you continue to botch your figures in a spectacular fashion, all the while ignoring what I have moved in to compensate. Le Louche gave the proper figures, 7 AP lost No damage, No XP. I would like to also point out that even If I had not already had the critical miss percent and I had not compensated for the XP problem, your statistics would still be wrong, if all the pipe bombs hit you would get 98XP not 112XP. You also failed to read the post above your own which lowered the total XP for a standard hit to 10 so even if I did not have critical misses the XP for every pipebomb hitting would be 70XP. However due to the fact that this seems to be causing you some distress I will step the compensation up a notch. In addition to the 10% dud chance I will add a 5% early detonation chance, which will deal 10 Damage to the user. that gives it a 85% chance to hit, with 10% chance of doing nothing, and a 5% chance of having your wife open your ketchup bottles the rest of your life. Please, before you say that I don't understand you make sure I haven't already compensated and moved on, and always check your figures. Also what I find interesting is that I added the critical miss chance before you made a post on my suggestion, this can only lead to the conclusion that you either didn't bother to read everything in which case it is your own fault, or you knowingly botched your "guaranteed minimums" chart which deserves a drama llama.

	Drama Llama
	The Llama is watching you.

-Devorac 20:40, 1 August 2009 (BST)

ENOUGH TROLLING This idea or suggestion is not based around a fundamentally flawed concept or worldview, and as such actually has a chance of becoming productive; stop bitching at it and start making neat little lists of its pros, cons, and potential additions.

7 bombs max, 75% to hit, 10% to ultra-hit, 10% to miss and 5% to backfire, with a 1/3 chance of each extra person being targeted being on your side. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:55, 1 August 2009 (BST) Thank you Le Louche, and it also costs more than 20AP to find the components and make. Pesatyel, I'm sorry I got carried away, there was a more diplomatic way to say what I said, but the point still stands. Please know that I will consider your -and everyone's - posts as well as I can, and if there is something that I actually do not understand I will question you about it. -Devorac 21:08, 1 August 2009 (BST) Dude if your going to alter your suggestion, ALTER THE DAMN SUGGESTION. What the fuck is a critical miss? I don't see that in the suggestion. Would you like me to cut and past your OWN suggestion above to make my point? Show me where IN THE SUGGESTION I "botch your figures in a spectacular fashion". The point of the discussion is that if a person points of something that would improve the suggestion, then you change the suggestion to reflect it. I'm not going to read Lelouch's idea and guess whether you like it or not. I'll have to assume you didn't since it didn't make its way into the main suggestion.--Pesatyel 21:25, 1 August 2009 (BST) And I might add that, yes, my numbers were wrong as it should be 119 XP. 1st zombie takes 35 (5+5+5+5+5+5+5), second 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3), third 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3), fourth 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3), fifth 21 (3+3+3+3+3+3+3).--Pesatyel 21:29, 1 August 2009 (BST) Wow, okay. First off I have said in my posts that half the idea is in the posts themselves, to prevent confusion I will be slowly remaking the idea and when the update is complete I will back it up, delete this one and post the updated version. Surprisingly enough you have to put forth an effort to understand this idea and that effort includes reading other peoples posts, also I withdraw my apology, you deserved every bit of that. If you had read the posts you would know what a critical miss is, also you apparently can't even properly read the unmodified suggestion, under the original terms the minimum damage is 14 per pipe bomb. 5 to the main target and 3 damage to 3 others, let me do the math for you, 14*7=98. If you had bothered to read the original suggestion thoroughly you would have seen -and I quote- " . on a "Miss" it will deal 5 damage to the target zombie (or survivor) and deal 3 damage to 3 other zombies (or survivors). ". Everything I have incorporated I have agreed to in my posts EVERYTHING so if you had read first we wouldn't have to be doing this. Pesatyel, here it is plain and simple, Either you actually put forth the effort and read the earlier post so you can make an intelligent comment, or you can get off the discussion. Take a good look at every thing I have posted on this discussion, an you will find that everything I have had to repeat now has already been said. Either you can swallow your pride and we can work together, or you can't in which case you can leave. If you chose that you actually want to help, great, read all of the above posts then come back with something. The reason I don't change the suggestion until I am ready to delete it and create a new one is simple, so I can create an entirely new discussion of the modified Idea, this will also ease the load on this wiki page. I'm not going to do it by halves to make you happy, if you can't keep up with the conversation, your problem. PS. I asked agunin and now I ask you, keep that mouth off the discussion.-Devorac 22:05, 1 August 2009 (BST) I said what I said because I did not appreciate the smarmy "better than you" attitude you put forth. If you do not wish to update your suggestion fine. I was pointing out the point is to put forth the idea IN the suggestion to make it clearer on those reading it. We shouldn't HAVE to read through all the discussion to figure out what you may or may not decide to include. That's how it normally works. You put forth an idea, someone makes a comment to alter it, you alter the main idea to reflect the comment. I should not be offended by you if you do not wish to do it that way. The point is to get your idea across as clear and conscise as you can and THIS isn't doing it. I look foward to seeing what you make of "version 2" and, I suggest you go ahead and do it since there doesn't seem to be much left to discuss this time around.--Pesatyel 22:26, 1 August 2009 (BST) Also, and no offense intended (and I do apologize for above) you might want to cut down on the unessential rhetoric.--Pesatyel 22:27, 1 August 2009 (BST) Wow. The hypocrisy is...staggering.-- | T | BALLS! | 22:45 1 August 2009(BST) Uh huh, whatever you say.--Pesatyel 23:14, 1 August 2009 (BST) The better than you attitude is probably because I knew you were wrong, and I had already (before you posted) compensated, I was rather frustrated with you. Now ask yourself, why does that attitude bother you? I intended to update to Mk 2 earlier but we hit a good spot of ideas and I needed time to see how they would play out. The Mk 2 Should be ready for comments the day after tomorrow, and it will be a lot longer and will include the calculation that were so useful in the dissuasion of overpower arguments, nothing like cold facts to dissuade people. What rhetoric was I using out of curiosity? The "put forth an effort to actually see whats happening or leave" I didn't realize I had repeated until just now, and even that doesn't fall under the category of rhetoric. "The point is to get your idea across as clear and conscise as you can and THIS isn't doing it." If I was going to propose the idea for votes, yes. However in this instance you are wrong,the current purpose is to gather as much information as possible, so it can be refined put out, taken back, re-refined then actually posted. In the last steps I will be going for clarity as much as anything else, but not until then, for now this is to gather opinions, ideas, facts, flaws, pros, cons, etc, etc. And I'm sure someone will come up with something I haven't though of, and I'll add that in with everything else. Btw, here is the link to where I am assembling the Mk 2 version, Mk2 Pipe bomb And please for the love of God do not post a comment on it till I take it this page. -Devorac 23:32, 1 August 2009 (BST) I wasn't wrong. Neither were you. We just had a miscommunication stemming from how things usually work on the page and how you chose to do things. No big deal once you explained how you were doing it. The rhetoric to which refer is, of course my own view, but you don't need to be "flowery" in your suggestion (talking about wanting to grab a bite or maybe being thirsty, implying the long read, for example). Basically speaking, I am suggesting you just get down to the nitty-gritty of the idea.--Pesatyel 23:49, 1 August 2009 (BST) Ah... So you are saying that nothing you said above was wrong? I'm just teasing, yes you were wrong on some points (mostly your calculations) but I was wrong to respond with as much heat as I did, so we are both wrong. I am a prolific writer, mainly because I am a writer and it is at times difficult to get through a post without some kind of addition but I realize it makes for long reading so I will try to cut down. -Devorac 06:04, 2 August 2009 (BST) UrbanDead App Timestamp: ChiTownBear 01:48, 29 July 2009 (BST) Type: Expansion Scope: iphone and ipod touch users Description: An Urban Dead application for the iphone and ipod touch. It would be laid out to suite the ipod/iphone screens. Also, it would alert you on your ipod/iphone if you're being attacked, your DNA is being extracted, or if someone talks. In order to make the alerts fair, the app would cost five dollars. That would make the alerts a perk for paying. Alerts are very believable because they would only come in response to stimuli that would grab our attention if we were really in that situation. At first glance the alerts might seem like a huge advantage, but they're not. The person with the app would have to be using their ipod/iphone while the alert comes for it to be helpful. For example, an attacker will use up all of his/her action points attacking within one or two minutes. That means that in order for the app user to escape the attack before he/she died, he/she would have to be using their ipod and be able to respond immediately. This would make the game a lot more fun for survivors because it isn't any fun to log on dead, with your building destroyed, having no idea what the fuck happened, and spending the next day finding a revive point. This would also make it funner for zombies because if someone extracted their DNA or revived them without consent, they could open the app and kick their ass. Discussion (UrbanDead App) I'll delete this some day, or maybe I won't... (You just had to go and kick this dead horse, didn't you? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 17:07, 1 August 2009 BST) Err, this is more of an axillary suggestion than a game-change; these don't go here, do they? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 01:54, 29 July 2009 (BST) Alerts are unfair. Trying to justify it with a price tag - and you forgot to include iPhones in that price tag - is bullcrap. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 02:03, 29 July 2009 (BST) Besides, just how much of an addict are you that you have to GET alerts? I know players that some of the fun is discovering if they can survive the 24 hours between when they are full AP and can play again.--Pesatyel 02:53, 29 July 2009 (BST) whoa, dont get bent out of shape just bc this will mean there will be a chance of a two sided fight once in a while. And by the way, it is fair. If when someone donates 5 dollars he/she gets unlimited server access, how come paying five dollars can't get you a heads up on when you should log on? Urban Dead is a good game, it will be very successful as an app, but it could be a lot better with at least a chance of a two sided fight. As for this being an auxillary suggestion I dont know. I dont know my way around urbandead's wiki, but it said suggestions go here so here it is.ChiTownBear 04:57, 29 July 2009 (BST) "... it is fair." Nope. "...when someone donates 5 dollars he/she gets unlimited server access..." Nope. Also, UD doesn't handle live fighting well - if you either party starts losing and can run away, they're probably going to do so... and it's nearly impossible to follow someone, especially with free-running. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 06:50, 29 July 2009 (BST) A huge nerf for zombie kind. Zombies are at an extreme disadvantage when faced with a "live fight". Survivors just have to free run away to be totally invulnerable to a lone zombie, or even anything but a mega-horde. If you get an alert on the first attack, you can move well before any poor zombie has had a chance to gain XP -- boxy talk • teh rulz 07:07 29 July 2009 (BST) Not everyone has access to an iphone, et al.--Pesatyel 07:13, 29 July 2009 (BST) "'...when someone donates 5 dollars he/she gets unlimited server access...' Nope.." im pretty sure they do, see: http://urbandead.com/faq.html#limit Ok, u guys have 2 pick a side. either too many people will abuse the alerts by never taking their eyes off their ipodtouch/iphone or not enough people have ipod touches/iphones to make the alerts fair. For the former, id have 2 say that someone with free running seeing the alert and running away before he gets killed is definitely a possibility. But that doesn't mean its bad because 1) not all players are going to have the app 2) not all players with the app will see the alert (the alert wouldnt have audio) in time to stop anything and 3) it will actually promote players playing WITH eachother instead of playing with eachothers' idle characters. And it is definitely not unfair for zombies because theyll be able to detect if a scientist is working on them. For instance, I like the scientist class and I always love to find a pack of 10 zombies (Naturally with all the players logged off) and extract/revive as many as i can. There was no risk at all, but with the app there would be a chance of one of them logging on. This helps balance things by not making scientists the best class, not to mention practically invincible. As for the latter objection, THAT IS WHY I SUGGEST HAVING TO PAY FOR IT. See http://urbandead.com/faq.html#limit for a parallel to this apparently very difficult concept.----ChiTownBear 09:34, 29 July 2009 (BST) ChiTownBear said: Ok, u guys have 2 pick a side. either too many people will abuse the alerts by never taking their eyes off their ipodtouch/iphone or not enough people have ipod touches/iphones to make the alerts fair. It's not that too many will do it, it's that those that do will be pretty much invulnerable. It's too much of an advantage for any single survivor character to have, and if a decent sized survivor group uses this, along with the meta-game... well I shudder at the thought -- boxy talk • teh rulz 09:53 29 July 2009 (BST) (At ChiTownBear) I've donated for a character, there's still an IP limit: see Hit_limit. You're still being incredibly biased towards iPhones (let me guess, you have one). "Definitely not unfair for zombies..." Did you miss boxy's point that a survivor can do this thing called free-run away into an EHB building next door? Basically, donating means "play more," not "have a huge advantage over other players." --Bob Boberton TF / DW 16:03, 29 July 2009 (BST) Now now, let's not forget cgi?rise. The alerts would benefit zombies holding open a breach in a malls defenses. - User:Whitehouse 16:04, 29 July 2009 (BST) But I dont understand, couldnt I say that having no chance of a player logging on because you are attacking, dna extracting, etc... benefits the zombies more than humans? the survivors need 2 find safe houses, find weapons, and find a zombie. After they do those things and leave the safe house they generally don't have enough AP to kill a zombie and get back to the safe house. zombies just need to find a player and that player is dead. And why do the scientist get an advantage over everybody by getting XP easier than every1 else with absolutely no risk? On top of that 99.9% of the time people miss all of the action in the game because they were logged off. i'm just saying some basic alerts would make the players a little more involved with the game's activities. I don't know how it works, but maybe paying 5 dollars could get you alerts on your cell? Does that make it fair enough? And Bobboberton, READ WHAT I WROTE AND ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED. By the way, the Hit_Limit link says this "Players who donate to contribute towards the server cost can have the IP limit lifted for one character per US$5 donated. Donated-for characters can access the map.cgi script as often as they choose. Additionally, the hits a donated-for character makes do not count towards the hit limit for that IP." Clearly, you need to drop that argument. It seems like 2 me that you guys are trying to knit-pick at this so that the only suprise in the game is logging on to find yourself dead in a destroyed building and the only risks in the game are things you can't do anything about anyways. And You've ignored a lot of what I said in my other responses. --ChiTownBear 18:22, 29 July 2009 (BST) Even if you donate, and I quote that hit page "There is also a 300 hit/day limit per character which has donated" Which means they don't have unlimited access. You need to brush up on your game info. Survivors sit and store up ammo for days in their safehouse. Which, by the way is safe because survivors outnumber zombies by a lot and their inherent ap advantage with 'cade building clearly adds up. "And it is definitely not unfair for zombies because theyll be able to detect if a scientist is working on them." Right, because by the time you've gotten tot he page you've already been rezd or the humie has moved on. Oh, not to mention how many zeds LOOK for a revive, because you know, some of us like to Death Cult. "This helps balance things by not making scientists the best class, not to mention practically invincible." Scientists aren't invincible so much as everyone else is. Their only "invincible" because when tyhey do their work, 98% of the time their target is idle. Just like almost every other target in any other class. Wow, look at that flawless logic at work. EVERYONE IS INVINCIBLE! We're reading what you're sayign, and it's obvious you're reading what we're saying, but it's obvious you aren't getting what we're saying. Also, it's pretty bad form to just plug your ears and say "LALALA MY SUGGESTION IS GUD U RNT REDING WUT IM SAYIN" Please drop this suggestion. Iphones and Itouches are shit anyway. Unless of course you rework this to be a desktop app of some sort, it's just not fair to anyone.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 18:56, 29 July 2009 (BST) o, i didnt know about that server thing. my bad. and btw, usually scientists go to groups of zeds to get their exp. so they dont have to waste any walking around looking for zombies. If one zed logs on, theyll probably still be there collecting DNA. And I mean theyre invincible because they don't have to stick around the zeds for too long or waste AP on missed shots. If an attacking soldier meets an online higher level zombie, he has to run or die. A scientist just needs to extract dna, revive him, and that fight is over. Unless the zed has brain rot, then they have to run. But the point is that scientists need to use only two AP points before they leave, attackers need a lot more. Also, there is no such thing as power in numbers in UD unless uve organized some kind of attack before hand. And I do get what your all saying and a lot of what you guys are saying is true, but your all getting upset that EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE (definitely not all the time) people might actually have to take a risk while playing. You don't seem to understand that when it comes to games, RISKS ARE FUN. PLAYING WITH OTHER PEOPLE INSTEAD OF IDLE CHARACTERS IS FUN. MISSING ALL OF THE ACTION BECAUSE YOU WERE LOGGED OFF IS NOT SO FUN. You're completely missing all of the way it would make the game funner. But obviously none of you have ipodtouches/iphones or like the idea of taking risks. So naturally theres no reason for you to support this. I'll resubmit it for just a basic UD app. sound good? --ChiTownBear 19:30, 29 July 2009 (BST) I stand corrected, I don't think you're even reading everything thoroughly. Thank you for you input.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 19:59, 29 July 2009 (BST) hurf durf he thinks disagreeing with him means being upset also he misses the point of UD - a game you can play 5 minutes a day, not sit around and worry about "missing the action." --Bob Boberton TF / DW 20:02, 29 July 2009 (BST) Drama Llama The Llama is watching you. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:16, 29 July 2009 (BST) Bobboberton, you are an idiot. please just get out of these discussions. I say upset because youve turned a discussion about a suggestion into a petty argument. STOP BEING A LITTLE BITCH. DISCUSS THE SUGGESTION, NOT WHAT KIND OF PERSON YOU IMAGINE ME TO BE. And all the alerts would do is change at what time you spend your five minutes on UD. You would just start playing when something happens, but really thats irrelevant now. I'M GOING TO WITHDRAW THE ALERTS. All I need to know from you guys (minus Bobboberton) is what you would think about a basic UD app. (btw, sorry for all the caps. I'm not trying to be agressive [well, maybe towards a couple people], I just want these points to be very clear) --ChiTownBear 20:53, 29 July 2009 (BST) I was discussing the suggestion. It's crap, and you're funny. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 20:56, 29 July 2009 (BST) Well. you're suggesting 2 things here. An urban dead ap for your You-Phone and another ap that alerts you to stuff happening to your character. The first one seems fine. You can even have your own city just for the ap. But how would the notification thingy work? Unless you are logged on, how would the ap know you were being attacked? --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 20:41, 29 July 2009 (BST) To the author. Answer these questions, honestly. Do you have an iPhone / iTouch? Do you play solely as a survivor? Have you ever been in a real-time battle? Can you spell, excluding text speak? Did you just get kicked off of 4chan, and are you looking for somewhere else to spam? Are you listening to Bob and SA, two of the most experienced wikiers on here? Are you in fact Iscariot? When you're done answering these questions, I think the suggestion will make more sense.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 20:46, 29 July 2009 (BST) Do you have an iPhone / iTouch? Yes, but in my opinion, even if I didn't I would like it because it would make messing around with seemingly idle zombies/survivors more fun because they might fight back. It adds a whole new dimension to the game. Do you play solely as a survivor? I have more survivors than zombies, but I still play as both sides. Have you ever been in a real-time battle? Yes Can you spell, excluding text speak? I don't understand the relevancy, but yes. I stopped being so formal after a while because they turned it into a chaotic, petty argument. Did you just get kicked off of 4chan, and are you looking for somewhere else to spam? No Are you listening to Bob and SA, two of the most experienced wikiers on here? I was, now they're just trying to attack me instead of objectively analyzing the suggestion. That pisses me off. Reality check, being experienced wikiers holds zero prestige. All you did was place your biased opinion on here for a long time. As far as I'm concerned, they can't get away with being douches no matter how long theyve been insulting players. Are you in fact Iscariot? If you mean someone who wants to degrade the players' overall gameplay so that the game designer can make more money, then no. If you mean someone who would make the app and get payed for its HUGE profit, then again no. I just want an app for the game on my ipod and maybe improve the game in the process. --ChiTownBear 21:16, 29 July 2009 (BST) Er, when did we attack you? Also, why do you want an app for it when the browser works just fine? --Bob Boberton TF / DW 21:19, 29 July 2009 (BST) I only "attacked" you because you're plugging your ears and going lalalala. It's hard to have a discussion when the other party isn't listening to a damn thing you say. All you keep doing is repeating the same points that we keep refuting, and we sometimes have evidence. While you present nothing but your wants. Also, being an old timer does have it's benefits. For one, if we understand the game mechanics and balance, people would listen to us more than they would, say, you. Fuck off with your petty bullshit. You started it all anyway.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:27, 29 July 2009 (BST) "why do you want an app for it when the browser works just fine?" Because Its a pain in the ass to have to zoom in the click or see a button and zoom out to navigate the page. It turns the game's five minute gameplay into like 15 minutes. Plus, It would get very poplular. UD is better than a lot of the top games in the iTunes store. As for the attacking: "just how much of an addict are you that you have to GET alerts?" -name calling/making me a topic of discussion, "let me guess, you have one" -trying to imply i only think its a good idea because i could use it\making me a topic of the discussion, "it's pretty bad form to just plug your ears and say 'LALALA MY SUGGESTION IS GUD U RNT REDING WUT IM SAYIN'" -pretty obvious, and "Can you spell, excluding text speak" -apparently I misspelled a few words. Whooptee-fuckin-doo. It has nothing to do with the suggestion. And as for Mr. Angel, I don't give a shit why you started attacking me. It had nothing to do with the argument. And im not getting into this discussion again. Its over. Let it go. (I'm saying this for the third time if i'm not mistaken) Anyyyways, how do I do this? Do I erase this one and just make a new one for the app alone? --ChiTownBear 21:51, 29 July 2009 (BST) You can just leave this one here, it'll get deleted after a while when there's no active discussion. Make a new "Urban Dead App (2.0)", no one will mind if this 1.0 one stays on the page. If anything it'll help people understand where your suggestion originated and recurring stuff. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 21:57, 29 July 2009 (BST) This suggestion is pretty awesome, except for the bit about the iPhone. Fuck that thing. The Borg made it you all know it and THEY WILL ASSIMILATE YOUr ASSHOLES. --Paddy DignamIS DEAD 22:03, 29 July 2009 (BST) It appears my question got swallowed up in the above melee. How would an ap know when you were attacked, inless you were logged in? --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 22:16, 29 July 2009 (BST) O yeah, I forgot to answer that. I'm not a programmer or anything, but i guess since the app is an independent program entirely devoted to one thing, it can still be taking tabs on whats going on even after you exit out of it. I have apps for twitter, hotmail, facebook, and my iTunes account that are always logged in and show me when I have new messages/updates/etc. --ChiTownBear 22:42, 29 July 2009 (BST) Apps like that do that by constantly pinging the server, or by having the server ping them when such an event; in either case this idea isn't practical. Furthermore, it has already been suggested that the fundamental basis of your idea is flawed; in the face of this criticism you can either: Ignore the feedback and take your suggestion to voting, causing it to be voted down in flames Take their word for it and give up. Please don't piss off the llama everyone, I don't think it's had any breakfast... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:49, 29 July 2009 (BST) He could also change his suggestion up to a new revision and place it here. I'm not hopeful, however, because apparently "let me guess, you have [an iPhone/iTouch]" is an attack instead of an obvious remark that only someone with such a piece of hardware would suggest an app solely for that hardware. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 22:52, 29 July 2009 (BST) If it's continually pinging the server, it'll run into the IP limit pretty quick. If the limit's lifted, even if only a few UD players used this, it would do bad things to Kevan's bandwidth (sorry if that's already been mentioned, I cba-ed reading the crap above.) Linkthewindow  Talk  22:55, 29 July 2009 (BST) to Lelouch- but since we have already decided not to do the alert thing, does it really need to keep pinging in order to keep someone logged in so that they can open the app and play instead of manually loggin in? to Linkthewindow- oic. *sigh* here we go... to Bobboberton- you're way behind. I decided to make a suggestion for a basic UD app a long time ago. experienced wikier my ass. --ChiTownBear 23:10, 29 July 2009 (BST) was that a completely irrelevant point i do think it was good sir i wasn't even commenting on when you came up with the idea only that you were making a revision ref. "Anyyyways, how do I do this? Do I erase this one and just make a new one for the app alone?" --Bob Boberton TF / DW 23:20, 29 July 2009 (BST) No they don't need to keep pinging in order to keep someone logged in (just like on the computer.) It only pings the server again when you refresh the page. Linkthewindow  Talk  07:42, 30 July 2009 (BST) I don't like the idea that you only get this is you have an iPhone... it's not because I don't like iPhones (although I don't like any iCrap), it's because I don't see why someone should should get an advantage for buying a specific device. --Kamikazie-Bunny 17:05, 1 August 2009 (BST) Survivor Bite Change Timestamp: --Papa Johnny 22:41, 28 July 2009 (BST) Type: Oddity change Scope: Survivors Description: Simple - When a survivor attacks with "bite" on a zombie that is infected, the survivor has a chance of becoming infected. It wouldn't modify the hit% for the attack or affect the zombie in any way beyond the normal 1 damage being dealt to it. Discussion (Survivor Bite Change) Survivors can't bite. Simple as that. User:Sorakairi /sig 22:55, 28 July 2009 (BST) Actually they can. Though it's obviously not meant to happen, you can do it via using a link with the correct attack code. - User:Whitehouse 23:06, 28 July 2009 (BST) Yeah, but is this really an issue?--Pesatyel Well I guess they are biting rotting flesh which probably isn't too good for their health. - User:Whitehouse 23:09, 28 July 2009 (BST) I actually like this suggestion. It takes kind of a sick mind to think something like this up, and I can appreciate that. But I think that survivor bites should be part of the regular attack dropdown, not something requiring a "link with the correct attack code". How many hidden tools do Wiki users need? Oh, and I think there should be an accompanying message letting the player know about the potential consequences.--Necrofeelinya 07:06, 29 July 2009 (BST) Survivors shouldn't be able to infect themselves, which is all this suggestion seems to be good for, getting an infection so that you can parachute into a barricaded building -- boxy talk • teh rulz 07:10 29 July 2009 (BST) Just make the % chance for infection low enough that it's not worth the effort for parachuting purposes. Then it'll only appeal to freaks like me, who think that the notion of self-infection is fun in its own right. I mean, they've got to bite a zombie, for crying out loud. How many people even consider that?--Necrofeelinya 14:44, 29 July 2009 (BST) I guess enough that it would even need to be thought of a suggestion in anyway.--Pesatyel 03:18, 31 July 2009 (BST) YES - Need I say more? --Kamikazie-Bunny 16:55, 1 August 2009 (BST) Art as weapons Timestamp: Da Ninja 09:17, 28 July 2009 (BST) Type: Game mech change Scope: Survivours Description: A very simple change. All decorations/art found in Museums can be used as weapons. They would have a base damage of 1 and 25% chance of hitting. This would make nearly all items in the game have some use and also give people the ability to slap people with stuffed fish. The art would break after a few hits, similar to how the pool cue breaks after use. The different pieces of art could have different characteristics (ie glass breaks more often, statues do more dmg) though it really wouldn't make that much of a difference. Attacking with the art would look like "You swing the (stuffed fish/abstract painting/glass bowl/etc) at (insert name here). While being hit by the art would look like "(insert name here) hit you with (stuffed fish/abstract painting/glass bowl/etc) for 1 dmg" I had a look if this was already suggested but I couldn't see it. I wouldn't be amazed if there was somthing though. Discussion (Art as weapons) It may be a dupe already, but currently I love the idea, but some of the art is different to others, so the paintings should break at different rates as sculptures, yeah? --ϑϑℜ 09:23, 28 July 2009 (BST) or just make 1 specific museum peice do as much damage as a fire axe. like whatever the rareist museum peice to find is.--Agunin_Anoven 10:22, 28 July 2009 (BST) I don't particularly see anything wrong with the idea, although you may get some people voting it down for being "useless flavor", oxymoronic though that may be. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 16:04, 28 July 2009 (BST) First 25% is way too high. The art objects aren't designed for "swinging" being large/unweildy/heavy/etc. Secondly, this isn't useless flavor, its JUST flavor. The game already has 8 or 9 weapons people don't use except for flavor. Thirdly, this could, potentially, promote PKing. Imagine some ass comes in and takes YOUR artwork and smashes YOU with it.--Pesatyel 02:51, 29 July 2009 (BST) ZING! --ϑϑℜ 03:17, 29 July 2009 (BST) "Takes YOUR artwork" - Uh, one, it's Malton's artwork, or from wherever it originated, and two, the suggestion says nothing about picking up artwork already placed in buildings. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 03:49, 29 July 2009 (BST) Technicallity. If I set up my "home base" in Deacon Bank, go out and find some nice art pieces to decorate my home base, how is it not "mine"? Sure I misread, thinking it would be more logical to grab some art put on display then to look for it. It just seems pretty silly to go looking for some big unwieldy thing like a glass table or mouldering tapestry just to attack someone with it when there are already several weapons in game nobody uses that "fill the job".----Pesatyel 07:25, 29 July 2009 (BST) Its funny too, this is, technically, a dupe.--Pesatyel 07:27, 29 July 2009 (BST) Hell I love the idea, Being able to kill a zombie with a stuffed fish (and get the headshot message) would be funny as all get out! -Devorac 02:33, 30 July 2009 (BST) So did I when I made, basically, the same suggestion.--Pesatyel 03:19, 31 July 2009 (BST) I'm sorry it didn't get passed, if I had had an account then I can tell you I would have voted keep to it. But who knows, perhaps this one will pass, then -in some small way- your own idea will have passed. If it's a dupe, it won't pass. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 06:38, 1 August 2009 (BST) Fair point, but perhaps all it deserves is a re-vote. I'm sure that has happened before. -Devorac 06:43, 1 August 2009 (BST) The re-vote is where it gets duped. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 07:35, 1 August 2009 (BST) *shrugs* maybe, but if people like it enough they won't care that its a dupe. -Devorac 18:40, 1 August 2009 (BST) Yes they will; that's how the suggestions system works around here. If the idea is a duplicate than it's automatically ineligible for consideration. This saves us from dealing with trolls who spam the same idea repeatedly and allows us to once-off the really dumb stuff that keeps popping up like item trading and machine guns. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:48, 1 August 2009 (BST) Alright, my apologies I didn't understand. -Devorac 20:57, 1 August 2009 (BST) Nerf Mobiles Timestamp: Necrofeelinya 05:25, 24 July 2009 (BST) Type: improvement Scope: mobiles Description: I'm just gonna float this and see what people think. The problem with groups is that they're organized on boards, not in-game. Noobs don't understand them, ferals don't want to waste the extra time with them, they circumvent the rules for AP use for speaking, broadcasting, using mobiles, all communication in-game, because people arrange for unlimited communication out-of-game with no AP cost. I propose a change that will ease communication in-game, promote in-game group organization and be usable directly from the player's interface so even noobs realize they can do it. I suggest implementing a Private Messaging system for contacts in-game. Here's how it would work: 1. PMs cost no AP to use, but do create a server hit and so count against your IPs server hit restriction. That means no more than 160 per day, max. Characters would be limited, but should be more than the current restriction on broadcast characters. I've never used a mobile, so I don't know what the restriction is on those. 2. Survivors can PM any survivor in their contacts list. Zombies can contact any zombie in their list. No survivor/zombie, zombie/survivor PMing. This is, however, negotiable since I know so many of you love your Life Cultists. 3. Zombie PMs would be in plain english, not Zombese. This is to facilitate in-game organization, not roleplaying. 4. You should have the option of blocking PMs from anyone you want. This basically reduces the need to organize groups on other forums, and allows even small groups to organize effectively in-game with minimal effort. It makes it possible for even noobs to do what experienced metagamers do all the time. I could see restricting it to only a handful of contacts, maybe 5 or 10, to try to encourage microgroup organization and discourage large hordes, but the goal is basically to focus the metagaming community's activity on UD itself rather than on a bunch of other boards. It facilitates zombie communication in-game in a way that encourages ferals to participate with other players while not forcing them into large hordes, and it immediately allows noobs and baby zombahs to create effective groups through their UD interface rather than having to join a group and check in at Invision or Barhah.com regularly. Fire away. Discussion (Nerf Mobiles) WARNING This suggestion has no active discussion. It will be removed on: August 4 at 03:56 (BST) First thing to start you off - perhaps should only work for mutual contacts so people you don't know can't spam you. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 05:36, 24 July 2009 (BST) Yeah, that's not a bad idea, though I did mention that you should be able to block PMs from anyone.--Necrofeelinya 06:09, 24 July 2009 (BST) Extremely abusable. Someone could log in via a proxy, send 160 messages, then use their standard IP and play the game. It should cost AP. While that doesn't solve the problem, it limits it somewhat. - User:Whitehouse 11:52, 24 July 2009 (BST) Abusable. Right. Abusable because someone could go out of their way to use a proxy so they could send over 160 messages... as opposed to using a separate forum for unlimited messaging. Why should it cost AP? It doesn't cost AP to use a separate forum. If anything, this discourages "abuse" that's already happening.--Necrofeelinya 18:28, 24 July 2009 (BST) It would give access to pretty much any character in game as it is written now, thus it can be a far more useful tool than a forum where it is required for the other person to be on said forum and actively checking for information, that's why I think it should be limited by AP (and all other forms of in game communication cost AP so why shouldn't this?). Also, would you mind clarifying what you meant by ""abuse" that's already happening"? - User:Whitehouse 19:43, 24 July 2009 (BST) Your response said abusable in a manner that implied that extensive communications without costing AP was an abuse. But with forums, that's happening right now, with no limit on # of characters, no limit on # of messages, no limits of any kind. In fact, with restricted forums people can arrange to PM one another, give each other info for a service like AIM, then IM one another and coordinate in unrestricted fashion while they play the game, which is no different than what this would allow, though this puts at least some limitations on it. The main thing is that it would take such behavior out of the exclusive domain of experienced metagamers and put it in the hands of all players, noobs and ferals included. So if there's a potential for abuse, it's nowhere near as big as the potential we deal with now, and this is essentially a measure to level the playing field for all characters.--Necrofeelinya 02:14, 25 July 2009 (BST) Actually, if you listened to his response, this lets you contact ANYONE, at any time. Name one forum in which you can contact any other urbandead character that you want.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:30, 25 July 2009 (BST) Okay, but in forums you can contact people who aren't in your contacts list at all. This limits it to people in your contacts, which is limited to what... 100 people? You still need to have made the effort to add them to your list, and you still are restricted by the number of people you can add. Forums still have more advantages, though they require more attention, but this would help even play a bit.--Necrofeelinya 12:29, 26 July 2009 (BST) No, because forums will only have specific people on them. You can't call up anyone at any time. This suggestion, coupled with the name database, gives you any character at any time, whether they want you to or not.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 14:23, 26 July 2009 (BST) How would zombies text each other? O__O --RahrahCome join the #party!11:54, 24 July 2009 (BST) Same as survivors... I envision a PM function added to the standard game interface. Maybe you hit a button and it opens a box on your contacts page, allowing you to choose a contact and send a message. Something like that.--Necrofeelinya 18:28, 24 July 2009 (BST) Alas. It is already made. You click the wiki button, it takes you to the wiki where not only do you get to just talk, but make groups pages, link them to forums for secret stuff, and all kinds of glorious things.--Agunin_Anoven 23:17, 24 July 2009 (BST) And just what percentage of players use the Wiki? The point of this is to make something everyone can already do more accessible. Making it involve a bunch of steps just discourages people... it should be part of the player interface in-game.--Necrofeelinya 02:14, 25 July 2009 (BST) Nerf? Don't you mean buff mobiles? No zombie texting... please. It's just so out of character/genre -- boxy talk • teh rulz 15:38 24 July 2009 (BST) No, he means it's a nerf because there's a better system.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 16:46, 24 July 2009 (BST) Oh, I thought the suggestion was to allow text messages if you've got a mobile phone for no AP. Surely PMs need to be explained, and using the mobile phone is the obvious choice. Just having it so you can magically, perhaps telepathically, contact others is ridiculous... may as well leave it for the meta-game -- boxy talk • teh rulz 09:15 26 July 2009 (BST) Perhaps instantly registering all new characters to an official forum? Although not everyone would use it by any means.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 14:24, 26 July 2009 (BST) I've always wanted a Nerf-o-mobile. --Midianian 17:31, 24 July 2009 (BST) I'd be satisfied with a small plot of land in a warm area, with a source of fresh water, a self-sufficient farm, a couple of dairy goats and some chickens, a place to grow fresh peppers, a dark cellar for mushrooms, an olive tree, a lemon tree, perhaps a walnut tree or some other kind of nut, and a chance to watch the sunset each day as I set off improvised homemade explosives and rockets, performed bizarre chemical and medical experiments that create and eerie and unnatural glow when viewed from a distant hillside, perhaps even signaling to alien spacecraft, and burned and buried the bodies of indigents and girl scouts unfortunate enough to cross my path... oh, for the simple life... just like Little House on the Prairie. : )--Necrofeelinya 02:26, 25 July 2009 (BST) Part of the atmosphere of Urban Dead is the sense of isolation and inability to easily coordinate; alas, that genie is already out of the bottle, and no amount of pushing will get it back in. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 02:17, 25 July 2009 (BST) True, but if that's the case, why not accommodate it in a way that makes it easy for all players to participate? If you've got a system with exploits that only some players use, and it gives them an advantage, why not just acknowledge the exploit and help everyone use it?--Necrofeelinya 02:29, 25 July 2009 (BST) I like the sentiment and mechanics of this, but ultimately I don't think people will go for it. External boards allow all sorts of stuff the game would never do (like pictures) and don't tax the UD server. You do have a good point about the newb problem - we have advantages they don't - but that also applies for all the in-game skills, like faster walking, free running, hitting what you shoot at, etc. That's just how it is, and although I don't necessarily like everything about that, nobody stays a newb forever. Anybody who really cares about blow-by-blow contact and strategic warfare will seek out the channels everyone else uses to communicate. I'm not trying to discourage you - I just think you're facing some pretty tough hurdles. -George Zip ◆◆◆ 02:39, 25 July 2009 (BST) I also like the sentiment, and I agree that in-game communication ought to be encouraged and made easier, especially for zombies. However it is a fallacy that newbs don't metagame. Noobs don't consider strategy and they won't regardless of how easy it is for them. That's what makes them noobs.--GANG Giles Sednik CAPD 07:00, 26 July 2009 (BST) True. Eventually, though, most either level up or idle out. And the rest? Well, it's a free postapocalyptic world. -George Zip ◆◆◆ 03:56, 28 July 2009 (BST) Wait, I don't see why "only some people" can use outside resources to augment playing the game. You mean to tell me if I meet some people in the game with whom I would like to organize that I can't get in touch with them out of game unless I'm a certain level in game or what?--Pesatyel 20:28, 26 July 2009 (BST) Right, being lazy isn't a handicap that we need to design the game to accommodate; If someone doesn't want to make an effort they they shouldn't be surprised when they don't get a result. That said, newb ignorance probably constitutes a significant potion of non-metagaming UDers, especially for people who are new to this kind of thing. It seems like the answer would be to spread he word about IRC rooms in game, not to flood the server and/or reduce character playability. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:39, 26 July 2009 (BST) Groan Improvements Timestamp: Sorakairi 23:04, 23 July 2009 (BST) Type: Improvement Scope: Zombies Description: My latest Groan Identification is now Groan Improvements. Firstly, you can identify Contact-Listed Groans as a Zombie. When you hear a Groan from the Groaner, you will get the message 'You hear (type of groan), which you recognise as (Groaning Zombie).' You can only identify one groan at a time, because of your decayed state, so if you hear another Contact-Listed Zombie groan, you will get a 'You heard several recognisable groans.' Secondly, you can now choose your type of groan. The Groans you can choose from are: Normal, Blood-Curdling, Mumbling, Sad and Happy. They still have a volume depending on how many survivors are there, (insert volume info here), just a different way of groaning, perhaps used a message sytem between Zombies attacking areas. Discussion (Groan Improvements) WARNING This suggestion has no active discussion. It will be removed on: August 4 at 04:28 (BST) The first bit would get you nice and shiny dupe votes, and the second bit is flavor that... probably wouldn't see a whole lot of use and cause more confusion than help. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 23:28, 23 July 2009 (BST) Firstly, the first part is a dupe of a suggestion I'm pretty sure was open only a week ago... The second part isn't so bad but I think it undermines the purpose of groaning (to allow zombies to find easier food) with flavour that, in the end, will mean the same thing: zombie sees survivor(s) and is alerting others around. It doesn't really need to be anything more than that. --ϑϑℜ 09:58, 26 July 2009 (BST) Thats because I made it... Sorakairi 04:18, 27 July 2009 (BST) I see. That doesn't make it any less of a dupe, though, you are just resubmitting your suggestion with an addition which, personally, I wouldn't vote for by itself, or with the prefix added on. --ϑϑℜ 04:16, 28 July 2009 (BST) New Strain Needle Timestamp: Sorakairi 23:04, 23 July 2009 (BST) Type: Item Scope: Humans And Zombies Description: Scientists, realising that the older zombies have entered a later state of decay, have formulated a new Revivication Syringe, known as a New Strain Syringe, to cure it. This new syringe can do what no other can: Revive a Brain-Rotted Zombie.Scientists, realising that the older zombies have entered a later state of decay, have formulated a new Revivication Syringe, known as a New Strain Syringe, to cure it. This new syringe can do what no other can: Revive a Brain-Rotted Zombie. Fortunately for the Rotters, these syringes are extremely difficult to make, requiring a powered Necrotech, and 30AP. Even then the New Strain is not entirely secured, as there is a 25% chance that you will fail at making the New Strain, resulting in a spent 30AP and a normal Syringe. The New Strain cannot be found. If you succeed at making a New Strain Syringe, you will get a message 'After much time and effort, you have created a New Vaccine for the Zombie Virus.' If you fail you recieve the message telling you 'All your time and effort has gone to waste, as you have only managed to recreate a normal Syringe.' Even though some of you will say 'You are an idiot. This totally nerfs Brain Rot,' it doesn't. At least not to me. After all, you will most likely go AP negative trying to create one of these, and the Zombies will target Necrotechs more because the lights on in there could mean people trying to create the New Syringe. Discussion (New Strain Needle) WARNING This suggestion has no active discussion. It will be removed on: August 5 at 00:04 (BST) "Even though some of you will say 'You are an idiot. This totally nerfs Brain Rot,' it doesn't. At least not to me." Hint: It does. Not only that, but this is 100% abusable by zergs. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 23:13, 23 July 2009 (BST) I'm not a raving fan of brain rot per se, but I can tell you that this definitely nerfs it. For just 10 extra AP, you're giving a syringe maker the power to revive a rotter from any location; multiply it times a billion and you'd have whole masses of scientists just sitting indoors, collecting rot needles, and then going on reviving sprees. Furthermore, if this doesn't nerf rot, then it has no point; since it certainly doesn't buff rot, it's either a nerf or useless. Sorry mate, them's the breaks. Also, >.< Edit Conflicts! Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 23:17, 23 July 2009 (BST) "It can do what no other syringe can do: revive a brain rotted zombie" = Not a Brain Rot Nerf. Hmmm... It doesn't quite piece together to me. --RahrahCome join the #party!23:24, 23 July 2009 (BST) Change this so the 'failed' syringes still appear to be the improved variant and I might be tempted to vote keep... but only if its use required a successful scan on the target rotter 1st. I would expect a chance for normal syringes to fail against rotters inside powered NT's as a quid pro quo type deal though. --Honestmistake 00:21, 24 July 2009 (BST) But what do you really get out of it in the end? Either you're nerfing rot, which screws with other people's skills, or you're having no net effect, which is pointless. This fills no gaping gameplay hole, and has no constructive end result. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 00:27, 24 July 2009 (BST) While I agree with Honestmistake, there is only one place I can see this coming into effect: getting rid a rotter clogging up a revive point (which I don't mind at all). Of course, it is only a temporary fix, because they can just commit suicide and get back in line. Other than that, the cost of making one of these really stops it from being a full on rot nerf, just through sheer amount of AP necessary to make and use one (120 AP on average to make one+ 10 AP to use=130 AP to revive rotter without chance to fail on-site) and if the changes that Honestmistake suggested are put into effect add the AP necessary to successfully scan the rotter (which is in my limited experience about 3AP). If anything, it will be underpowered to the point of uselessness. My suggestion would be to change it to 50% success rate and don't tell whether or not it is really the right syringe(60 AP to make+20 AP to use both the new one and the failed attempt+6 AP to scan the rotter(s)= 86 AP, with 25% chance to fail on-site). --Uberursa 01:03, 24 July 2009 (BST) Just butting in to point out that it says 25% chance that you fail to make the improved syringe Not 25% chance that you succeed. --Honestmistake 09:11, 24 July 2009 (BST) But at the end of the day, what's the point? Before we try to lower the number of reasons why we shouldn't do something, we should first find at least one why we should. Either a rot nerf or useless overcomplication, that still stands. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 01:06, 24 July 2009 (BST) I can think of a few points if my additions were made part of it... the 25% chance that your improved syringe is actually just a normal one means you could well be wasting about 45AP for no good reason... thats actually a buff for rot should people make a habit of using these to clear revive lines. On the other hand this would give survivors an instant (if not certain) way to clear Rotters from any where they need to... the uses in taking back malls, forts etc is pretty obvious here which is why I also say it should be further balanced by a percentage chance for rotters to have developed enough resistance to normal syringes that even powered NT revives are not certain.--Honestmistake 09:19, 24 July 2009 (BST) You are an idiot, this totally nerfs brain rot -- boxy talk • teh rulz 15:45 24 July 2009 (BST) I think a lot of people forget that it's easier to die than live. To live, somebody must revive you. To die, you simply have to jump out of a building. For that one specific reason, the dead will never be overcome by the living - the dead can always go right back to being dead. So, in my mind, this is not a nerf. That being said, however, I would propose that the New Strain Needle be very hard to make, and so I would only support it under your manufacture specs. Anyone who doesn't like it could, of course, just go die. -George Zip ◆◆◆ 02:47, 25 July 2009 (BST) Look, I don't care how easy it may, or may not be to die if revived. The fact remains that the only reason that anyone buys brain rot is so that you can't be revived, unless you are in a very specific building (the powered necrotech building). This suggestion (and all others like it) removes the only reason all those brain rotted zombies bought the skill. Fuck that -- boxy talk • teh rulz 09:32 26 July 2009 (BST) In the end, then, you and I essentially agree about the effect but don't agree about the validity of the outcome. I think the rotters should have a reason to be afraid again - and you don't. Fair enough. -George Zip ◆◆◆ 04:00, 28 July 2009 (BST) Okay... So you want it to have a 50% chance to make a Rotter reviving tool that you won't know you've got till you use, as well as a chance that Rotters aren't always revived in Powered Necrotechs? Sorakairi 04:29, 27 July 2009 (BST) Thats the only way I can see that this could be made even vaguely fair. Survivors would be paying about 45 AP to get a % chance of reviving a rotter while whatever the fail chance was would still carry that pretty steep cost for no benefit. --Honestmistake 00:04, 29 July 2009 (BST) Road Flares Timestamp: Uberursa 21:46, 21 July 2009 (BST) Edit: --Uberursa 21:39, 22 July 2009 (BST) Type: Item Scope: All unpowered buildings Description: Location: Auto Repair Shop (6% with lights;4% without lights; 1% in ruins) Fire Stations (5% with lights; 2.5% without lights; 1% in ruins), Mall Hardware Stores (6% with lights; 4% without lights; 1% in ruins),Police Departments (10% with lights; 5% without lights; 1% in ruins) Can be used to make it appear as if a building is lit on the mini map. This does not include when a survivor uses binoculars (the magnified vision allows them to see that it is not actually lit). These are LED flare lights, and thus do not have flames or fumes as a traditional road flare would. When standing outside the building the message There is a light flickering from inside the windows appears in the building description, when inside, the message There are road flares in the windows. If there is a generator in the building, the building's external description will ignore the flares as long as the generator is running. The internal description will indicate both the flares and the generator. They can also be lit and dropped on streets and outside buildings with the message There are lit road flares here. The flares will not be visible on the mini map when placed on the street, as they are hidden by low-lying debris. If someone lights a flare, the message XXX placed a flare behind the windows or XXX placed flares on the street appears (depending on the situation). The flare lasts 48 hours once lit. They can be taken down and subsequently destroyed or disabled (removing batteries, smashing, etc.). NO OTHER EFFECTS. The interior of the building will remain the same as if it were not lit, except for the message that there are flares in the windows. A flare on the street can also be destroyed/disabled. Destroying flares provides 0 XP to survivors and 1 XP to zombies. Discussion (Road Flares) I'm not entirely clear on the search system in UD, and the wiki was little help due to the amounts of conflicting/out-of-date/generally confusing information (and the fact that I'm lazy), but I felt the above ones were fairly reasonable. Any help from someone with a clearer understanding of that system would be appreciated. I just feel that it needs to be said one more time, in bold lettering, to ensure no confusion exist about the fact that this will not improve search rates or hit rates in any way --Uberursa 21:48, 21 July 2009 (BST) I'm not big on misrepresentation or decoys, especially when they can't be removed for a fixed period of time. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 22:12, 21 July 2009 (BST) I could change it so that someone could destroy it with a weapon, or just throw it in the street next to them.--Uberursa 04:20, 22 July 2009 (BST) Also, who would want to do this. The only time I can see lights coming in to play are when zombies are looking for targets, and no survivor (the only person who can use this) would want to make their building a target. The other situation is for suburb reports, which this would mess with. Messing with suburb reports for newbies is not good.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:17, 21 July 2009 (BST) As far as who would want to, a lone survivor in a ruined suburb could use it to make a decoy, on the flip side, the moment the zombies in the area realized it was a decoy (due to the description) they would search the surrounding ruins for a survivor. The fixed period of time is relatively short (in Malton terms, assuming a player logs in once a day on average) so they couldn't have gotten too far, depending on how long the building was ruined and to what point it is 'caded. It could be changed so that binoculars could see them as flares, thus the status reporter helicopter could see that they were flares.--Uberursa 04:20, 22 July 2009 (BST) I'd consider rethinking this item as a weapon. Road flares look nothing like either incandescent or fluorescent light, and nobody ever uses them inside (they put off chemical smoke). Also, they only last for 30 minutes to an hour. No, I'd suggest you consider their possibilities in a more active role - perhaps a dangerous weapon that only works for a brief period of time. -George Zip ◆◆◆ 01:11, 22 July 2009 (BST) No one can see in or out of a building (for whatever reason), so saying that it could be mistaken for a light at a distance isn't too much of a stretch. I got nothing for fumes aside from "it is the zombie apocalypse, not real life" (bad excuse), or one could use their imagination (like with free running). As for a weapon, it could be essentially a melee flare gun. Any thoughts on that? --Uberursa 04:20, 22 July 2009 (BST) You don't need to use your imagination with free running. It's a real thing.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:01, 22 July 2009 (BST) Good luck.--Agunin_Anoven 04:25, 22 July 2009 (BST) Don't make it a weapon... it will get shot down :) As for a light source, it might work if you drop its duration down to 24 hours and call it a chemical light. Those things can glow for hours and produce no smoke. They are pretty light and increasingly common. --Honestmistake 10:08, 22 July 2009 (BST) You're probably right as far as a weapon goes, it would just be another flare gun. It could be changed into a LED light signal, those things are pretty bright and could last longer than a standard road flare. Not to mention it wouldn't present the whole "toxic fumes" problem that was brought up by CaptainVideo. If I did change it to 24 hours, there would be a good chance that no one would see it, and by the time this is finalized, they will be able to be removed. In fact I'll just do that right now. --Uberursa 21:31, 22 July 2009 (BST) As per your changes, what does this even do? I see nothing, other than the pointless building decoy method you previously mentioned, which no smart survivor woudl do. All I see that this would do, in a very rare situation, is a PKer/ Death cultist putting one in a ruin that survivors are hiding in to alert zombies.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:10, 23 July 2009 (BST) Actually I think a lot of survivors would use these in an attempt to decoy zombies so my main concern would be wasting zombie AP... on the whole though I think there use as "bread crumbs" to lead zombies to easy targets would balance it out. --Honestmistake 14:24, 23 July 2009 (BST) The "bread crumb" use was part of the whole point of this. Yes, a death cultist could use them to alert zombies to a survivor presence, or they could be used as a signal that a building was taken and needs a genny, or could be used to draw zombies from a more important target. They could be used to make a zombie player think that no one was in the building at all and check the surrounding ruins for a survivor that is not there. This would especially play a role in a siege environment so that survivors could draw in zombies and slow them from reaching the core of a 'burb, but the zombies would be pounding at their doors, and they would have the no access to the advantages of a genny. The uses of the item are endless, however it is not imbalanced in one direction or the other, because it simply alerts those outside that there is a flare in the window, and zombie players could figure out that it is a decoy, turning their attention pointedly away from it and towards other targets. It lights up a building without the need for 30% encumbrance, but that comes at the price of having all the attention of a genny, without the light granted by it.--Uberursa 21:36, 23 July 2009 (BST) No, it's uses aren't endless. It can be used as a decoy, that's it. Rather ineffectively too. If you want a cheap decoy, give a building a quick 2ap repair, and zombies will flock to it. As I'm presently repairing a ruined suburb with my main account, I can tell you that i would never use this.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 21:59, 23 July 2009 (BST) Plenty of players never use the radio and consider it nothing but useless span. A lot of folk ignore flares and groans as pointless. Many, many players never bother with clothing (or indeed descriptions... the lazy fucks!) However just because a lot of players wouldn't find use in this (or any of those others) does not make them useless. I would use these, I would use em even more if they were colored but thats a different matter, and I suspect may others would use em too. Question really is; would you vote kill or even spam just because you wouldn't use em? --Honestmistake 23:05, 23 July 2009 (BST) in all of the cases you gave, the Majority DO use them. This suggestion would be used by a minority, and only by one side. It would annoy both sides, and survivors currently have a perfectly acceptable technique for setting decoys in a ruined area. If the area was ruined, you wouldn't be able to find these to use them. --Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:06, 24 July 2009 (BST) First of all, in a ruined suburb you can't find toolboxes, but you still use them, you can't find FAK's in a ruined suburb, but you still use them (I think you get the point). ANY item will only be used by survivors, that's is one of the advantages to being alive in UD, you can use items. It is simply attracting more attention to a building, because there is a shade of difference between ruined and repaired buildings. A lit building will stand out better, and will attract attention even in a suburb that is not necessarily ruined. Yes, there is a current way to set a decoy. This is a different way to set a decoy, and this decoy can stand out in more than just ruined suburbs. Also, try to not make claims based only on your personal opinion. I will not say that it will be used by a majority of people in UD, I have no basis for that, but I would ask that you do not start making sweeping generalizations over its use when the item is not even in the game and six people, including the author, have even posted a comment on it.--Uberursa 05:53, 26 July 2009 (BST) A minority is less than half. So, unless survivors and zombies use it, it's used by a minority. And this would do NOTHING in a ruined suburb. At present, lit ruined buildings don't show up. So, in a ruined suburb, this would be useless. And honestly, what survivor would set a decoy in a non-ruined suburb?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 14:31, 26 July 2009 (BST) Groups that do not use meta game maps. Survivor X says to survivors Y & Z that he is going south to start ruin repairs and will m,ark his targets with these. They can then follow when next they log on and will have a much greater chance of spotting where he is and thus keeping an eye (and FAK's) on him while he wakes up. Likewise a scout marks his path with these so that his group can follow or a group use these to mark their territory or to show zeds that they have invaded theirs. There are lots of uses for this, all of them are pretty marginal but they are still uses. --Honestmistake 17:55, 26 July 2009 (BST) Thanks for not listening to me about ruined buildings being unaffected by these. I really wanted to repeat myself. Also, thank so much for forgetting that some buildings around an unruined area will actually have generators already, completely destroying the other uses you just mentioned. Absolutely lovely work there, because I really enjoy pointing out the insane obviousness of this situation.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:32, 26 July 2009 (BST) You are not pointing out the obvious, you are making stuff up. Why would ruined buildings not be effected by these? The suggestion makes no mention of them being invisible in ruins which leads me to believe they can be seen and hence have a use... You are grasping at straws to justify your opinion that they are useless when I have clearly stated several (admittedly marginal) uses for them. I can think of several others but you still just say they will not work without any clear reason why? --Honestmistake 00:11, 29 July 2009 (BST) Because you can't see if a ruined building is lit from the street, you idiot.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:14, 29 July 2009 (BST) "They can also be lit and dropped on streets and outside buildings with the message There are lit road flares here." Doesn't need to be inside the building to mark it, even if it doesn't show on the mini map they would still be useful for indicating target buildings by simply scattering them in the streets. Lit ruins may not show on the mini map (I am not sure on that but will take your word for it) but that does not mean that these could not as it seems to me that marking buildings as either territory or targets is the main idea behind this (they don't affect search or accuracy). As such they would be useful for a minority and mere flavour for everyone else and I really can't see how that would be a problem. --Honestmistake 16:17, 29 July 2009 (BST) If this added that ruins showed up lit, then that would make this a double suggestion. And besides, that aspect is almost certainly a dupe. It's been brought up several times.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 19:08, 29 July 2009 (BST) How about I just save you the first spot on the kill vote section?--Uberursa 00:44, 31 July 2009 (BST) Don't bother. I won't be voting kill.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:46, 31 July 2009 (BST) You want to keep it? Really? After all that?--Uberursa 18:42, 1 August 2009 (BST) No. If you have the complete and utter folly to suggest this after the lengthly "Discussion", then I'm going to vote Spam. This suggestion is ridiculous.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:48, 1 August 2009 (BST) Suggestions up for voting Infected Blood This suggestion is now up for voting. Its discussion has been moved to its talk page.