Category talk:Recruitment

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Sample Question

Blah, blah, blah blah. Blah blah? --User: Blah 16:53, 17 August 2007 (BST)

yeah i gots a question

wheres the archive of this page? or did you just delete years worth of discussion?--Bullgod 17:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Here. Sorry, I archived the part which explained that I created an archive.... - User:Whitehouse 17:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Other Discussion

New Maintainer

Of the two people who have been maintaining this page, Whitehouse has left the wiki, and Iscariot reports internet difficulties. So I'm volunteering to help maintain this page for a while. If you got a friendly notice that your ad was about to expire, that's why. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 16:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

if you need any help with shit i have alot of free time lately, and ive been on the recruitment page since there were only three groups on it, so ive seen whats worked in the past and whatnot, all the dissent as to how the system works, blahblahblah, complaining, etc.--Bullgod 21:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep on eye on the monroeville/borehamwood adverts.--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, gents. -- Atticus Rex ^{mfu pif} Δ 06:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

My computer is still dead but I can use a friends pc most of the time if I need/want to. I'll help out whenever I spot anything that needs doing. - User:Whitehouse 23:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Category:Recruitment Rules Discussion

Overhauling The Page Rules

So, with the age of the page we've found quite a bit of drama arise from a few things and some discussion has been under consideration about how to change the presiding rules. Category:Recruitment has been a great place holder for a more able system since it was thrown together by a user but has started to experience significant growing pains as it has become more part and parcel of the game's Recruiting Structure.

It is about time we put them to a discussion here and seriously begin about trying to implement the changes seen as necessary to the growth, usability, fairness, and over all likability of this page as a user tool so that it can continue to serve in a growing and valued capacity for the years to come or until such time as a better system arises.

Some changes that have been proposed and discussed for this purpose are as follows;

• The organizational limitation that places the advertisements in alphabetical order is counter intuitive and probably not the best idea for the page. Separating advertisements by group type first and alphabetical last makes more sense but, shouldn't be subject to a policy in and of itself. It's something that may need to be semi-annually altered as the need arises or better means appear. Cementing it in policy makes it that much more difficult to fix as necessary. As of current the major groups types in-game are Zombies, Survivors, and PKers.
• Drop the advertisement size limits. They're extremely restrictive and don't actually serve any real valid purpose other than to try and prevent inclusion limit breaking. That can be managed by other means, possibly even by placing the advertisements on the page itself like they were originally.
• Completely remove the 600 pixel limit and any reference to a similar limit. It has absolutely no purpose that proper maintenance of the page wouldn't itself provide.
• Removal of all page maintenance based rules that are not considered essential to the page. This includes anything that can be redundantly classified as covered under the breaking of the page clause; Headers, Oversized Inclusions, Too Many Inclusions, Width Altering Advertisements, Oversized Advertisements, Categorization Mistakes, etc.
• Alter date removal for groups, the current way it is enforced is overly constant and a hassle that makes the page not worth bothering with. Groups on the stats page shouldn't need to re-verify that they are active every 14 days, you already know the answer to that. Groups that aren't on the stats page, however should be warned that they may be required to prove they are active upon inquiry. This may include timestampping if that is deteremined to be the best method.
• Add a section of Maintainer Guidelines, this is not rules for how to maintain the code of the page but rather standards for removal of advertisements, the previously suggested text of such and area was simply;

said:

Any advertisements that do not meet then minimum standard of requirements outlined on this page above can be removed by any user at any time so long as due notice is provided to the group in question and the user who placed the advertisement if so possible. To not give fair notice of removal or need for alteration is vandalism and should be reported to A/VB.

• Remove requests to self-moderate advertisements in favor of a standard notice on the page informing users that Advertisements may be altered by a user working to make them viable for use on the page. This is simply a means of informing users that substitution and other fixings that may be needed for the proper functioning of the Advertisement and this page may be done and does not provide for significant or severe alteration of the advertisement, if such changes are needed it should be removed and the Author informed of why.
• By and large alteration and simplification of the Eligibility rules to something more akin to This. This includes the alteration of the "DEM Rule".
• Restructuring and removal of most of the Formatting rules to more accurately reflect the new system and to provide more ease with which to read and follow.

Everything above is open for discussion at this point and improvements or opinions are more than welcome, encouraged even. That is what this whole section is for after all.--Karek^maps?! 08:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I am a bit weary about placing groups in their "sections"-there has been drama on the North Blythville page on the listing of TZH as a "pro-survivor" group, and similar disputes over the PK on their pages. Might want to add that it's up to the group to list themselves where ever they want, and other editors can't change it.

I would rather keep the page as templates, but that said, I'm no technology expert, and if that is stupid from a technical POV, then don't listen to me :). But, yeah, as for size limits, ether remove them, or double them (to roughly five hundred.)

Agree on the pixel limit, as long as they are not too big (Pictures that are unnecessarily large may be removed?)

Agree on the useless rules. Moving on...

I agree with Wan's rule below. Groups with over twenty members are excluded to any "activity" rule, and groups under twenty should just have to timestamp once every few months.

I've stated my opinion on taking people to A/VB-some sort of "soft warning" would be needed so that newbies don't get unnecessarily warned. Does "fair notice" cover adverts that are clearly breaking the page (that is, they can be removed intermediately, with a warning on the group's talk page?)

I agree with Wan below on the DEM rule. But if this isn't clear enough, remove all references to all in-game groups.

Finally, Rosslessness stated that someone should write a guide on "how to have an advert and not have it removed." I'll write such a guide once we finally settle on some guidelines for this page.

Linkthewindow  Talk  09:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

• Fair notice essentially only covers adverts that are up for removal for other reasons. This does not include any actions needed for the page's functioning, such as adverts that break the page. Although it's still generally expected that you inform the user of why their ad has been removed.--Karek^maps?! 03:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

These are just some rough drafts for some of the rules... Please feel free to "tweak" them.

• I suggest that "DEM rule" goes. Out the friggin' window. Replace it with the following: "Alliances and organisations consisting of several independent groups may be listed. However, if an alliance wishes to be listed, its member groups may not be listed again seperately." Combined with the relaxing of the length/content rules, this should allow alliances the flexibility they need to list all their members. What does everyone think? --WanYao 08:49, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
• Groups should be asked to update their registration. However, 14 days is absurd! Should be more like every 60 days or so. And, any group with an active membership of 20 or more is exempted from this. --WanYao 08:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The DEM rule must die. It's caused too much drama, and your proposed rule is much better (that is, there being a choice.)

I do agree that timestamping once every two weeks may be a bit short, once a month would be better, and groups on the stats page (that is, with over twenty members,) don't have to timestamp. Linkthewindow  Talk  09:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Or, everyone has to timestamp every 60 days. Across the board. That's not really unreasonable. But 14 days is ridiculous. --WanYao 09:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. Quite frankly, if you can't be bothered timestamping once every two months, then why have an ad? 60 days (with a warning at 50 if someone can be bothered, (I'll make a template if this becomes consensus,) is fine. Linkthewindow  Talk  09:50, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem with timestamping is it is essentially saying "Change your advert this often". Most people won't have anything to add to it and won't have any reason to edit it.--Karek^maps?! 10:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I more see timestamping as a way so that we can check that groups are active. As Mid said below, this is also so that people who use this page to find a group don't find dead groups. Two weeks is too short, but anywhere between a month and two would be fine. We must also enforce this across the board. Large groups shouldn't get a free pass on this. Linkthewindow  Talk  07:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The only problem i see is with "events/alliances" like the Big Bash and Mall tours... Should they be allowed to recruit without having to "delist" groups who are taking part? I dunno.... --WanYao 09:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

In that case, we would have to write in a clause about that. How about:

Short term events are not covered by this rule-that is, the event, and all groups taking part, can still keep their ads.

I only came up with that in less then a minute, but thoughts (and yes, the wording would have to be fixed, but you get the idea.) Linkthewindow  Talk  09:50, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The reducing bureaucracy part is fine, but...

First, I'd prefer the page was kept in alphabetical order. Organizing it by group type is going to hurt the more curious groups (like dual nature groups). These are groups that badly need recruitment as they don't usually get that many members. The more regular type of groups shouldn't be favoured just because they're more regular.

Second, timestamping must stay, for all groups. Big groups shouldn't be exempt from this, as they actually need the page less than the small groups (they already have members). The time period could be changed to a month or even two, but the timestamp is needed to keep the page comfortable to use. It's not about verifying that the group is active, it's about verifying that the group is recruiting. If the groups can't be bothered to update the timestamp, do you really expect them to bother removing their ad when they're no longer actively recruiting? Or even when they're disbanding?

You need to remember that the page doesn't exist solely for the groups that want to recruit, but also for the people looking for a group, the actual recruits. Without timestamps the page would quickly get crowded and that could easily put off people from reading the page at all. Anyway, it's probably more effective to have your ad occasionally on a short list, than permanently on a huge list.

There's one aspect of the page it isn't using to the fullest. It's a category page. All the pages in the category are listed at the bottom. This could be taken advantage of by moving the inactive groups' ads to another category and pointing people towards the list of pages, while keeping the amount of ads included on the page itself small. You'd have your ad linked to from the page as long as your group is active, but you could get additional visibility if you're willing to bother with the timestamping. --Midianian^|T|DS|C:RCS| 16:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

• The reason for the changing of the formatting isn't actually about favoring the groups so much as favoring the user trying to find what group he wants to join. Dual Natured can certainly be added to the list of group sections, they slipped my mind when I was making that list.
• I don't really see the point to timestamping except sending a big FU to people who don't frequently update all their wiki pages. There are groups(large ones even) that don't have members that edit the wiki, timestamping doesn't help people trying to find a group find a group, it limits that groups exposure for not adding four ~ every x days. The benefits gained are simply nothing that page maintenance and actual inquiries into whether a group is active wouldn't do better, or that Stats.html doesn't already do in the case of groups that appear on it. If a group doesn't want to recruit new members they can always remove the advertisement, shunting it to the category portion of the page is little better than removing any reference simply due to the fact that this page is in actual use. If that solution turns out to be the one decided upon it would be best to actually split this into a page and a category with a descriptive text directing users to the category list for finding groups advertisements that aren't featured.--Karek^maps?! 03:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Responses

I've avoided much of the drama since it's spilt over to more pages than I can be bothered to follow, however since as these 'new' ideas seem to have taken on a terminal course I thought it'd be better for me to respond and give my opinion on the whole thing. I took over the majority of the maintenance of this page back at the end of April, which means I've been maintaining it for approximately eight months. In that time despite hinderance from sysops and the exceedingly vocal complaints from one group I have managed to make this page run consistently and fairly. No special treatment is given to any group during my maintenance, all groups are subject to the same guidelines that are stated clearly at the top of the page. These rules have been challenged and discussed before, unfortunately the drama whoring of one person in particular has seemed to have ignited a crusade for short sighted rules changes that will damage the running of this page.

I will now give my own responses to the majority of suggestions found above:

1. Separating the sections into group types - This is simply idiotic. There's evidence on this page that the person who started this drama doesn't perceive certain groups to be pro-survivor, all this will create is edit wars and flaming over whether a group 'belongs' in that category according to another group's subjective opinion. The current method allows groups to define their own group type to their own satisfaction without censure. An ad cannot be removed for anything in this section, the RRF can call themselves pro-survivor if they want and the ad won't be removed.
2. Advert size limits - Those ad limits are there for a reason. This is a low tech browser game. People shouldn't need a higher spec computer to view an official resource than they do the game. There have already been examples of pages on this wiki freezing computers that can play the game with ease. These limits prevent such occurrences on this page. These current limits are clear and open, and do not require any subjective judgement from anyone. An ad gets removed if it's 201 words and left if it's 199. Making it a subjective call by having no written limits invites the beginning of biased maintenance and the associated drama.
3. Remove the picture size limit - I don't actually remove many ads based on this, this is therefore one of the least policed rules on the page. However this written limit is in place for the same reasons as above, it prevents people being subjective and therefore showing favouritism on the page and helps those with lower spec machines.
4. "Removal of all page maintenance based rules that are not considered essential to the page" - I've maintained this page for eight months. All of those rules are essential. Someone who actually maintained the page would understand this.
5. Timestamp validity changes - Some of you might think this sucks, but it serves two very important purposes. It is a very convenient limit to those maintaining the page, going above that will lead mistakes to made by those maintaining it (which now could apparently lead to escalations) especially around the month changeovers. The most important reason is an indication of input from the person placing the ad to their potential recruits, who really wants to join a group where they can't update a signature within two weeks? This page is here for newbies, not for people with an established wiki presence who can find groups easier. We're on the main page for these newbies to find us for that reason. 14 days is an excepted standard amongst wiki projects, suggestions are open for this long, so are promotion bids and both the suburb and radio massacres use this as their timing standard. Anything more is going to lead to a messed up page.
6. Adding rules for page maintainers and escalate them for failing to do X - This is a clause that Karek has inserted to specifically target me. It is well known that I don't use notices and this is his attempt to stealth escalate me. We already have maintainer guidelines, they are the same as the page guidelines, i.e. if it doesn't fit one of the guidelines then it removed. Adding escalations for doing this against the whims of certain sysops will lead to no-one maintaining the page and then imagine the state it will end up in. In eights months I can count the number of vandalism cases against me for removing ads without handing out warnings, can you guess? That's right, none. The community does not consider removal of ads in accordance with the page guidelines to be vandalism, this section is purely to serve Karek's agenda. This also goes contrary to the rest of the wiki, you don't get warnings before your suggestion is removed, you know it'll be open for 14 days when you enter it if you read the rules, you don't get a warnibng before your unused image is deleted, and you can't get that back and you only have 7 days to use that, you don't get a warning before your suburb is removed. All of these examples are precisely the same, however it seems like Karek wants a special case made here, I wonder why? Notice is not required for this maintenance, the edit summaries that are used categorise the reason for removal to the specific rule in question. I was going to standardise these in a help section with reasons and solutions, this whole drama has forced me to cut back my editing of this page, hopefully temporarily.
7. The Large Group Rule - Welcome to controversy. Because this rule is so unfair and targets any successful group? Erm, nope. Do you know the amount of groups that have had problems with the large group rule after their ads were removed? One, yes that's right, the arch-drama-whore herself (the person who admits she turns people away from this wiki) decided it was unfair and caused this entire conflagration. The RRF don't have a problem with this, the Imperium didn't have a problem with this, and neither did ZEMA. This rule exists for one simple reason, to protect the small group that actually needs to use this page from being flooded by ads from the larger groups. At the moment we have 18 groups advertising in the Malton section of the page (how many of those are valid ads I don't know because I've been hesitant to maintain given this drama) that total does not include the DEM (odd how they are trying to advertise all their groups and yet can't even maintain a single one), the Imperium or the RRF. Now if this rule is abandoned, then those three groups are going to add nineteen ads between them. Three groups are going to more than double the page. That's before we get groups like The Fortress or Extinction adding their smaller components. Remove this rule and you kill the page for the small groups abiding by the spirit of the page. "But this rule is unfair because it targets just the DEM!" - No, it doesn't. The DEM and the DHPD are named in the guideline as examples, this doesn't target either group, the rules was actually written by a member of the DHPD.... The rule is also (contrary to what certain people would have you believe) enforced on other groups than the DEM, the Imperium and ZEMA have both had ads removed under this rule. "But you haven't removed other ads from what I consider a large group!" - Contrary to popular belief, I don't have an omniscient ability when it comes to group politics and alliances, but when something is brought to me I investigate it. Notice in the below discussions I had with the DEM, I asked specifically for examples of groups they thought were breaking the rule, they declined to give this information and instead pressed on with wanting the rule removed. You'll notice at the bottom of this page that Kristi accuses me of showing bias towards the Dulston Alliance and not removing their adverts, you'll notice my response. Accusations such as this are fucking nonsense (I've tried to avoid swearing here for obvious reasons, but this is well deserved), you'll notice she avoids responding to that, because the number of Dulston Alliance adverts on the page was zero. All this drama about a non-point. Certain groups are automatically removed because their coverage by the large groups rule is without doubt to the person doing the maintenance. I'm open to people bringing me new groups to be included, but I insist to be allowed to speak with them and hear their case first. Of all the people on this wiki I'm probably the best to play this role, as I pick up on the small details and don't allow loopholes, however this was also put before the DEM below and rejected as biased. "Well, if the group shows up on the recruitment page you can have an ad!" - This is the stupidest alternative to the current rule I've heard in these discussions. You want the maintainers to search another page while doing basic maintenance? Go away, it's hard enough trying to deal with this page at times when work and real life are all on the go. This idea also prevents the fledgling groups this page is made for from advertising, good move. This also discriminates against zombie groups, feeding groan forces them to have exactly the same group tag due to the game mechanics, the group tag must be Ridleybank Resistance Front, not The Ridleybank Resistance Front or RRF. Penalising groups for following the demands of the game is plain wrong. Not to mention this rule can be undone with basic zerging. Create ten characters, set the group affiliation, log on every five days. It costs a player 10 IP hits to do this, still leaving enough to maintain three characters.

Understand, here the rules are blind and black and white. People complain about this wiki's rules being arcane and inconsistent. That's not the case here, whether I like or dislike your group you are entitled to advertise here until the rules say you can't. There's no perception or subjective judgement. If there were do you think Extinction would be allowed to advertise here whilst I was maintaining the page? I think Extinction are a bunch of zerging scumfucks, and their representative to this wiki is a drama causing retard, but that doesn't enter into my thoughts when deciding to delete their ad.

We (myself and the other mainatiners) have (or at least had before this drama) here the most efficient and accurate page on this wiki. Ads are either accurate and up to date, or they aren't here. There is no page on this wiki as transparent and up to date than this page. You, the wiki community, will now decide the future of this page. You must make your decision whilst mired in the drama and agendas others and decide if you want this page to degenerate like the rest of this resource has. There are thoughts of updated rules and expanded help for this page, but that can only happen if the page is not crippled by vague and short sighted rules put forward by those with a vested interest for whatever reason.

Me? I have no vested interest, this page causes me extra effort which I can, and will, give up if need be. I contribute my experience of maintaining this page, which only Whitehouse surpasses to my knowledge, and my experience tells me clearly that these proposed changes aren't good for the page and are made by people who do not have the best interests of this page in mind. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 16:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I wondered if you actually tried to consider this from a standpoint that isn't based on the belief that it's out to screw you as opposed to actually for the development of the page. Then I got to point 6 and all question vanished. However, I'll answer some of the points anyway.

• Number 2 shows a lack of understanding of computers along with the assumption that these things won't get fixed when found. They will and always have been. The second part is kinda part of the reason why these things need to go, 199 vs 201 just shows the uselessness of such rules. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by deleting an advertisement for 1 word. It's not an issue of creating drama but rather that the current system is overly strict with quite literally nothing to show for it, the old one worked better in regards to advertising and had no such limit.
• Point three is based on the pre-assumption of ridiculous bias. The type of thing you're claiming as defense for the rule is vandalism, as you said it's not a big issue and thus doesn't need policing. Much less some ridiculously precise and arbitrary size limit.
• Point four shows why I'm not putting much weight behind your claims that they are important. You start from a false assumption that because things have run amicably that it is because of the rules already in place. It's not, it's because the people who make the advertisements understanding that there is limited space on the page and acting accordingly.
• Work backwards. You can't determine there is a problem when you don't actually have something showing it to be a problem. You can't claim timestamps to be more effective than legitimate inquiry simply because it's convenient. Timestamps can always return if they are found to be necessary, right now they don't seem to be in the least.
• ⁽⁶⁾Yes, and I also killed Conndraka's kitten, am really Grim S, sued Kevan for copyright infringement, and raped the Statue of Liberty. Twice.
  • So you're a bad maintainer who doesn't actually care about letting people know their advertisements have been removed. Congratulations. I didn't actually know or care. However as someone that has been on the other side of it that kind of thing is very obnoxious and frequently leads to outdated advertisements because the timestamps are long enough to be put out of mind but soon enough that they're frequently dropped due to it. It's not contrary to anything other than a mistaken belief that this is comparative to highly visible and constantly updated suggestions, it's not, there is no parallel there. Talk:Suggestions, however, does have warnings before removal and always have.
• Actually, regarding the large groups rule. You listed groups that don't meet the thing that is an issue about it as justification, at least one doesn't meet those qualifications because of something I pushed for them to do in the past. Of the groups that do run into the problem it presents you have absolutely none with current recruitment Advertisements. Those groups would be DEM, NMC, and Dulston Alliance. Extinction would have qualified, a year ago and the DHPD would not have at any point in at least the last 3 years. I don't really think I need to say more than that.

The rules clearly aren't that black and white, especially when they're being used in the manner you paint above. It seems more that the rules are there to make it as hard as possible to place and maintain an advertisement simply so that they can be removed frequently and without notice. I know that isn't what was intended but that is what it has become. As you said yourself; 1 word too many is too many.

This is hardly the most efficient page on the wiki, and is far from the most transparent or up to date. Those honors go to various map and administration pages which have far better turn around. It's not even the best of this type of page, that's Talk:Suggestions which despite it hitting the inclusion limit from time to time is cycled more frequently, with less conflict, and is a proven resource. --Karek^maps?! 17:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

tl;dnr. Seriously, I am getting fucking sick of trying hard to work on this project and getting subjected to walls of text interspersed with drama and peurile ad hominems. I mean really. A group of us were working seriously to try to fix things... No drama, no bullshit, just working on ideas. And now? I'm ready to walk away.

Seriously, Iscariot... While you have valid things to say, the way you're saying them has got out of hand. And, I really can't be bothered to read your rebuttal, either, karek, sorry, again -- tl;dnr. But kudos for the effort, I suppose, to all of you. Perhaps you's wanna write a summary for those of us like me without any patience for slogging through the bogs of text? --WanYao 00:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I broke down and skimmed all that. :) Here's my 2-1/2 bits worth:

1. ) For optimal ease of use groups should be separated into categories. I suggest the following: Zombie, Survivor, PKer and Other/Miscellaneous. Groups will be permitted to "self-identify" and the only time their wishes won't be respected is when it's fucking obvious that their classification is bullfeathers, e.g. the MOB trying to call themselves pro-survivor. It might also be possible for a group to be listed under more than one category. This might be how to deal accurately with the Philosophe Knights, for example (list them twice: once in survivor groups and again in PKer groups).
2. I believe that size/length restrictions need to be in place. This, too, is to keep the page as easy to navigate and read for the end user. These restrictions, however, need to be relaxed and also enforced in a relaxed, common-sense way.
3. The rules are too long and need to be pared down. Again, for ease and convenience of use. As it is, the veritable Talmudic textbook of rules is one more obstacle to convenience and ease of use and readability. And, respectfully... Iscariot you say they're all necessary? Well, I don't necessarily think so and I might respectfully suggest that modified rules, combined with a different style of "moderation" of the page, might render many these detailed rules quite superfluous....
4. Timestamps must remain, and be enforced. However, 14 days is absurd. I'd suggest more like 60 days.
5. Re: the beloved "DEM rule".... Frankly, there seems to be a general consensus on the issue of organisations and alliances and only one person objects to this consensus.
6. Re: penalties. No. No "special penalties" on Recruitment. Recruitment is a community page just like, say, the MIC or the main suburb page or Suggestions (especially cycling, vote striking, etc.) Penalties" should follow standard VB protocol similar to how it's practiced on these sorts of pages. This, too, is a variant of the "ease of use" ethos I've expounded above -- just this time for people maintaining the page.
   

--WanYao 13:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Regarding #6, that is what is intended. Alternative wordings that make it more obvious that it's expected behavior is more than welcomed as this is the second time it's been mistaken as a new penalty instead of a restating of the current status quo of A/VB in regards to moderating this page.--Karek^maps?! 15:19, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that Wan. The only rules I really want kept are the timestamp rule (expanded to around a month or two,) and keeping the adverts as a templates and in tables. Other then that, most other rules are not needed. Linkthewindow  Talk  06:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, we need a version of the DEM rule... But simple one: you can post an ad for the alliance as a whole, or the alliance isn't listed, but each subgroup can have its own ad. However, loosening the size restrictions allows alliances to properly describe their subgroups. As it is, they don't have the ability to do so properly.

So this goes out to Iscariot -- though also to anyone else with the knowledge.... Within the context of the majority consensus that seems to exist, can you help us draft some guidelines for size, etc. that will be workable? --WanYao 07:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

About the DEM rule-yeah, I forgot about that. Have you thought of what to do about Big Bashes and Mall Tours? I've posted my (rushed) idea above. Linkthewindow  Talk  07:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe about time I actually said something..

• "DEM rule" - the events part: Just say that events due to their temporary nature can have their own ad, and groups taking part in the event may retain their own ads as long as the event only advertises itself and not the member groups. That is a major difference from an alliance, an alliance would look to advertise its member groups because members rarely join straight into an alliance but join one of the member groups, events look to advertise just the event itself. So yeah, I think I just ripped of Link's idea from above.
• Next thing I wanted to mention was how the groups are organised. There seems to be objection to the alphabetical order, so I'll just take a second to explain: previously we had by type (survivor, zombie, pkers, etc.), until some people began complaining that their type was listed below the other types. So alphabetical was chosen as most neutral. I'm not saying type wouldn't be good, just do expect someone to whine when their type gets listed further down the page.
• Time extended.. ok. On one hand the page will probably get a little longer due to less zealous clearing, but it would be nice for the groups to not have to change the timestamps so often. I'd rather see one month than two, but you wont find me protesting if you decide on two.
• You seem to want to lift restrictions (they were mainly in place to limit the possibility of the page being difficult to view for users with lower resolutions, although the text limit is from when all text went on the page and it could cause the page to be hard to edit and rather slow), the only thing I'd ask of you then was to grant users the right to edit ad pages with images that are breaking the page. Something like "by submitting your ad to this page you allow users the right to edit the specifications (not content) of your ad to better fit the page if it is found to be causing viewing problems", the user editing the ad would have to provide a notification on the ads talkpage.

Yeah.. that's all I had to say. Now Link, uhm.. why do you say "ether"? I'm pretty sure you mean "either" no offence meant, or maybe I misunderstand. - User:Whitehouse 09:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and as for the large group rule, in case it wasn't already clear: I'd like to see alliance groups being allowed to recruit separately. In fact I'd rather they only be allowed to recruit separately, but that's irrelevant right now. - User:Whitehouse 09:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

That edit specifications thing falls under what I consider standard page maintainability. So it certainly should be allowable.--Karek^maps?! 09:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The most constructive change discussed here would be the adjustment of a required timestamp to monthly or bi-monthly updates, a change which the M.U.M. would support. Bi-weekly is just a nuisance. Mayor MC Cheese 04:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Category:Recruitment Rules Voting

Vote on Changing Timestamping

Very simple and straightforward, this is the first vote on part of the discussion regarding the complete revamp.

Change Timestamping to once every 60 days instead of once every 14.

Seems this is the least contentious bit so here it is in vote first.--Karek^maps?! 05:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Voting

• Yes - However, i would prefer a 30 day period for the time stamp, allowing groups to "upgrade" to a 60 day period ONLY after they have proven they can keep within the 30 day period for the first year. Can we not recast this vote with both a 30 day AND a 60 day period as available options? --T13 20:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yea - Sure, why not. Betterment by steps is still a step better. --Karek^maps?! 05:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yep - I would rather one month, but two doesn't make much of a difference. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yea Fine. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yea - Much better than 2 weeks. Especially for smaller groups who aren't as active on the wiki. -- Cheese 14:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
• Fuck yeah --WanYao 14:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yea - Huzzah! Less work for group admins! --Pedentic 17:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yes, but as Link I would rather have had one month. - User:Whitehouse 20:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yea - Make it a lot easier! :]--Gamerman191 02:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yes - Great if your on holidays and most of your group doesn't always come on. --[[User:Surfraptor|Surfraptor] 2:26 p.m EST, 5 January 2009.
• Yes - What's this? Less work for me you say? I wholeheartedly concur. --Mobius 18:52, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yea - Longer than 14 days is certainly an improvement, but I feel that 60 days might actually be too long. Still... it's better than 14. --Maverick 06:29, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yea - I would have preferred 30 days, but this is better than 14! --Lois Millard 18:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
• Meh - To this specific version. I'd prefer it was one month. Even if it is this long, I'd prefer it be two months, not 60 days. It's simpler both to maintainers and advertisers. --Midianian^|T|DS|C:RCS| 08:30, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yes - It gets annoying sometimes. --Haliman - Talk 00:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
• Sure - i like the idea of it being longer, altho for maintenance purposes id say two months is a better length of time to use, less hassle. --Bullgod 09:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't think I understand the difference here. Two months would be a variable time isn't 60 days easier to reason out?--Judge Karke, self-proclaimed Decider of Everything and Ruler of All 12:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Neither do I, actually. On another note, when will this vote end? Two weeks like everything else? Linkthewindow  Talk  12:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Sounds reasonable enough. I just intended to let it come to a natural end when it did, most things do after two weeks.--Judge Karke, self-proclaimed Decider of Everything and Ruler of All 12:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
        • What's two months from now? (Jan 10th + 2 months) = March 10th. What's 60 days from now? 10 + 60 - 31 - 28 = March 11th. At least for me the first case is simpler to calculate. It's so simple that even calling it "calculation" is a little excessive. Sure, when using "two months" the duration can be a couple of days longer or shorter depending on what month you put the ad there, but two days out of ~60 doesn't really make a difference. --Midianian^|T|DS|C:RCS| 12:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
          • Exactly my point. two months make for more practical maintenance than figuring out when 60 days exactly is from the posted time in each individual case.--Bullgod 06:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
            • This is what I've been using. It's not that hard ;). Linkthewindow  Talk  06:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
              • Know what else isn't hard? Agreeing with the two months idea. ;) --Bullgod 08:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
                • Oh for frell sake, link. If I stamp it on the 15th of February, it's expired on the 16th of April. It's simple. Oh gee you lose a day or two here or there!!! Who the frell cares, it's not like people need to get deleted the SECOND their timestamp expires. If it goes over (or under!) by a couple of days, ZOMG teh wikiz not gannah fall on youz, sheesh, stop making it so needlessly complicated. --WanYao 18:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
                  • Understand, that I'm not agreeing with you, but I'm not disagreeing. I just don't really see the point in having to revise the thing we are voting on at such a late stage. If we are having problems then just put it up for another vote in a few months time. Linkthewindow  Talk  02:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
                    • I'm fairly certain that this is so small a change that most would feel it's not worth changing once implemented, which is why it needs to be discussed now, before it's implemented. --Midianian^|T|DS|C:RCS| 07:58, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• Aye - Sounds fine to me. --Private Mark 21:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yes - Yes, please. --D4rkness 04:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yes - Definitely. --Cheveyo 07:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Yes - That would make it a lot easier for me, 14 days is too short. Im sure a group will be plenty active within 14 days of putting up a recruitment add. Now in 2 months or 60 days, either works, they may not so that is a good time to check the ad, make sure everything is up to date. Also, 60 is not that long at all, even if a group went inactive after 30 its not that big of deal to have up. Most people who are not serious about keeping their groups dont even use this anyways. --Lady Cheetara 07:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)