Suggestion:20080406 Sledge Hammer

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Sledgehammer

Tselita 16:02, 6 April 2008 (BST)

Suggestion type
New Weapon

Suggestion scope
Anyone who can swing a blunt object. No parapalegics need apply.

Suggestion description
Okay, this is my latest suggestion to come out of Talk:Discussions (3 suggestions entered, one suggestion leaves, just like in the Thunderdome).

New weapon which would be found in Hardware Stores, Factories, and Fort Storehouses - Sledgehammer. The stats would be as follows:

Damage - 4 (high damage, but it's heavy and hard to use)

Accuracy - Base Accuracy = 10% without Hand to Hand Combat (they're HEAVY - hard to use in a fight), 25% with Hand to Hand Combat.

Encumberance - 9% (one third heavier than a fire axe)

Search Rates:

In Fort Storehouse 6.0% if Lit, 3.0% if Dark, 1.5% if Ruined

In Hardware Store 6.5% if Lit, 3.75% if Dark, 1.85% if Ruined

In Factory 3.75% if Lit, 1.75% if Dark, 1% if Ruined

Junkyards 1%?

As you can see, it's a very heavy weapon, very good damage, but low accuracy. It's easily better than half of the 'unused' melee weapons which are out there and could be a good third weapon to add to knife and fireaxe for melee fighters. It must be noted that there is NO such thing as Hammer Proficiency, and so this will obviously give Sledgehammer a definite limitation vs Axe and Knife, which are lower damage, but can get significantly higher accuracy. That way it doesn't nerf axe and knife wielders.

I made this suggestion as a third option for melee users. Right now you have a knife - high accuracy (up to 50%, but low damage - 2 damage), and fireaxe - moderate accuracy (up to 40%, and moderate damage - 3 damage) The sledgehammer would therefore be - low accuracy (up to 25%, and high damage - 4 damage)

Benefits:

1) More variety in improvised melee weapons

2) This weapon would actually have a useful benefit... high damage.

3) Every other melee weapon other than fireaxe and Knife is abysmally sucky. Ski Poles, Cricket Bats, Golf clubs, Baseball bats, etc. None of them are remotely practical because of their stats. Why bother even having them? Because of Shaun of the Dead. That's the only reason they're most of them are even in the game. Most of these weapons are only used because some poor hapless player has yet to find a fireaxe, and as soon as they do, byebye to the other weapon. A -few- players use these otherwise already useless weapons for a flavor reason, not for any sort of practical reason. Only the pool cue is even remotely useful (because of its higher accuracy at low levels), and it breaks after about 5 uses (or less). So that renders it pretty useless too.

4) It would be an excellent weapon for newbies, because of the +1 higher than axe for damage, at least until they buy Axe Proficiency. Then Axe becomes superior overall because of the increased accuracy rates. Knife will still be the best weapon for GKing and RKing.

5) Allows for a good symmetry in the game - the knife is low damage/high accuracy. The hammer is moderate damage/moderate accuracy. A weapon is missing which would do high damage, low accuracy (+1 to damage compared to axe, since the knife is -1 damage compared to axe). The Sledgehammer rounds out the trio with high damage/low accuracy (direct opposite of the knife).

Detriments:

1) It's heavy... it'll take up a lot of inventory space because of the weight.

2) The accuracy rate is really low.

One comment brought up in Talk:Suggestions was that a sledgehammer would nerf some other weapons, such as the Cricket Bat, Tennis Racket, Ski Pole, Golf Club and Fencing Foil. But I find this to be illogical, because of the simple fact that no one uses these weapons to begin with. They get a fire axe, or at the very least a knife or even a pool cue. A weapon which has 0 usefulness to begin with can not be nerfed, as it is already nerfed by its very existence. They are there pretty much for flavor alone, and because most of them were featured in Shaun of the Dead.

As for the idea of if it would nerf other weapons, here's why it won't:

The Axe - At lower levels, the sledgehammer would indeed be better. Until you buy Axe Proficiency. Then Axe becomes the weapon which is overall the best for a melee user, because it will have a 40% accuracy rate compared to the low 25% for hammer users. Sledgehammer would primarily only be more useful vs other 10% and 25% wielded weapons. Plus the hammer is still less burden than the hammer. Plus the search rates are still better for an axe than a hammer. I predict most melee users will probably try to start with a sledgehammer (unless they start with a fireman, in which case they'd stick with axe), then switch to axe once they get axe proficiency.

The Knife - The knife is obviously -far- lighter, but also does a lot less damage. But most people use the knife because of 2 things - the 50% accuracy and for GKing/RKing. The introduction of the hammer won't change this - Knife will still be far superior in those respects.

The Pool Cue - Still a halfway decent weapon for low levels, if you want to trade damage for accuracy. The Pool cue is still the most accurate weapon for newbies. Introduction of the Hammer doesn't change that.

The Metal Pipe - This has always sucked as a weapon, but it does have the loosely barracading capability, and that's pretty much the only reason anyone carries these anymore.

Crowbar - Even the relatively useless crowbar still has the usefulness in that it's lighter than the Hammer, so at least if you're attacking a barracade, you're not overburdening yourself in the process.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Keep - Author Keep :) --Tselita 16:03, 6 April 2008 (BST)
2. Keep/Change - I like the idea of a melee weapon that is similar to the flare gun in regards to high damage for low accuracy. Would consider lowering the base accuracy by 5% though and also the idea that the sledgehammer would possibly have better destructive capabilities against barricades than a crowbar. Overall a good enough suggestion though don't know if another melee weapon is necessary. --Machinany gun 16:32, 6 April 2008 (BST)

   Re -Actually funny you should mention that. :) The -original- proposal I made in Talk:Suggestions was Damage 5 (instead of 4), Base Accuracy 5% (instead of 10). It was felt that might be too high damage and low accuracy, and in order to keep everything symmetrical, 4 damage/10% would be more appropriate.--Tselita 16:42, 6 April 2008 (BST)

3. Keep - Very nice. --Heretic144 16:46, 6 April 2008 (BST)
4. Keep - Wow, one of the first well balanced weapon suggestions I've seen since joining. --FXI 16:59, 6 April 2008 (BST)
5. Keep - It's still not properly formated, but it's close enough that me spending my time fixing it would pointless.... of it Really needs to be fixed for some odd reason, I'll leave it to a syops or something... :D --/~Rakuen~\^Talk I Still Love Grim 17:46, 6 April 2008 (BST)
6. Keep - I like it.--Studoku ^W! 18:43, 6 April 2008 (BST)
7. Keep - There was a character named "Sledge" in Dawn of the Dead who (surprise!) wielded a sledge hammer. --Hhal 18:53, 6 April 2008 (BST) Edit: I fixed the formatting. --Hhal 18:55, 6 April 2008 (BST)
8. Keep - Much longer text than it needed to be though. I like the idea that a newbie can buy HtH combat (note that nobody starts with it) and do 1 damage per AP if they find the right weapon. I'd like if it also worked like a crowbar against barricades (full hit rate), because hauling around a sledge AND a crowbar is gonna be really heavy, and newbies (again) need de-cading weapons. As to more experienced survivors, really- pinata, anybody? At 9% encumbrance, it would be a real encumbrance investment, but would be ideal for 'cade bashing if it could get the full 25% hit rate.  Swiers 20:22, 6 April 2008 (BST)
9. Keep - None of the arguments below have any good points. --BoboTalkClown 20:32, 6 April 2008 (BST)
10. Keep - Zombies can use this, since it is a blunt weapon, right? A good choice for a newbie, if it has the same abilities as a crowbar vs barricades. Would be cool if you could get a headshot or "skullsmash" with this weapon. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 20:44, 6 April 2008 (BST)
11. Keep gimme my sledge hamma! Nice suggestion.--Airborne88^T|Z.Quiz|PSS 21:04, 6 April 2008 (BST)
12. Keep - You smash the trenchcoater's head open like a watermelon. He dies. --The Gecko PKer 21:36, 6 April 2008 (BST)
13. Keep - I like it. --Pvt human 23:26, 6 April 2008 (BST)
14. You could have a steam train - If you'd just lay down your tracks. You could have an aeroplane flying (I didn't get further than the title of this suggestion.) --Karloth Vois ^RR 01:18, 7 April 2008 (BST)

    Heehee funny --Tselita 16:20, 7 April 2008 (BST)

15. Keep/Change - I'd like it better if it had (even) higher damage and lower accuracy and had some kind of advantage against barricades, but it's good enough like this. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 12:27, 7 April 2008 (BST)
16. Keep - An even more efficient way to remove barricades? -doc crook 13:50, 7 April 2008 (BST)
17. Keep - Although I do wonder how a zombie can recover from a sledge headshot... --Howard Bentley 04:03, 8 April 2008 (BST)
18. Keep - What? No "It's HAMMA TIME!" jokes? --Private Mark 04:19, 8 April 2008 (BST)
19. Keep - I really like this one. Perfectly reasonable for people to know how to use a sledgehammer in a city from construction workers to the backyard weekend warrior. --_└^Frozen_┘^┌_Flame^┐ 06:44, 8 April 2008 (BST)
20. Keep - Brilliant idea, but is'nt there enough melee weopons in the the game but still it will be funny in a fight when it says " example killed you with a sledge hammer" -- --And25 16:12, 8 April 2008 (BST)
21. Keep - A great idea that should at least throw in some flavour into the action. I could have a SMASHING time with this --Feon Kensai 17:05, 8 April 2008 (BST)
22. Keep - Nice to have the choice of another melee weapon with higher variance, even if you have Axe Proficiency. And I don't think it needs any extra advantage against barricades. --Explodey 18:37, 8 April 2008 (BST)
23. Keep - I like it though i would love it to also be better against cades. The only problem i see with is that is has higher XP gain for PKers.--Carnexhat 21:38, 8 April 2008 (BST)
24. keep-Same with Decading. I like the high XP gain, since I'm a PKer.--Rofl. 22:51, 8 April 2008 (BST)
25. Here's that keep of yours. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 23:08, 8 April 2008 (BST)
26. Keep - It's frustrating how a user has to "prove" that their suggestion is worse than existing alternatives to get approval. Personally I'll likely never use a Sledge Hammer but your idea is sound so I vote Keep!--Zardoz 02:45, 9 April 2008 (BST)
27. Keep - I like the idea of a sledge hammer. Seems realistic enough to have! And quite well balanced for newbies too. Also if some of the PR classes were to be implimented, this would be rather cool to have with them from an RP point of view. Acoustic Pie 09:42, 10 April 2008 (BST)
28. Keep - good enough idea, well worth the vote. and LOL at the guy who voted keep in the kill coloumn (im not gonna fix it..)--GomerPyle41 06:17, 11 April 2008 (BST)
29. Keep - Very Cool!--Jamie Cantwel3 07:36, 10 April 2008 (BST)
30. Keep - Honestly, the last thing the game needs is another melee weapon, but I like variety. --Ciaran Deckardson 21:48, 15 April 2008 (BST)
31. Keep -Good idea!--Crazyloop 20:23, 19 April 2008 (BST)
32. Keep/Change I'd carry it only if its effectiveness was not reduced against barricades. I could use a better dedicated anticade weapon, when some jerk has been barricading everything up to Heavily. --Kingofallpie 19:57, 20 April 2008 (BST)
33. Keep I seriously think that a friggin' sledgehammer should have better effectiveness against barricades. Otherwise, I'm all for it. This will replace my Crowbar in teh inventory. --Keldoclock Encon 04:06, 21 April 2008 (BST)
34. keep - Yeah this is a winner. Great for noobs and vaguely useful for the rest of us. Yes to the cade bashing ability and next time write less text, its so long! --xoxo 05:17, 21 April 2008 (BST)

    • Re - Ya, sorry about all that text... I tend to be wordy. Loquacious. Verbose even. --Tselita 15:19, 21 April 2008 (BST)

Kill Votes

1. Kill - Nope, sorry. I can hardly be bothered about searching in a factory, but it certainly dilutes search percentages in hardware stores and storehouses. Even though I might be somewhat for empowering zombies, I don't want the brainz to be unable to construct some basic infrastructure. I want them to be able to put up a good fight. And saying that the other improvised weapons are 'nerfed' is a rash statement. They are there because improvised weapons on a whole are easier to find for newbies than axes. Not all advantages are necessarily in stats, my friend. ~Ariedartin • Talk • A KS J abt all 19:30, 6 April 2008 (BST)
2. Kill - Firstly, only newbies would use it, due to the knife's accuracy and the axe's damage/AP efficiency. Therefore, if only newbies want it, why should it be found in Malls and Forts? Also, with 25% accuracy it gives it 1 damage/AP, which is equal to a knife with Knife Combat, and is only beaten (melee-wise) by the fire axe with Axe Proficiency. That normally wouldn't be so bad, but it enables someone to kill with a melee weapon with just one skill. -- The Lethal Trio ^{[Tlk|NTCS|RRF] U! E!} 19:49, 6 April 2008 (BST)

   Re - It's also found in Factories and Junkyards, which newer players have easy access to. --Tselita 20:01, 6 April 2008 (BST)

3. Weak Kill - There's much likable about it, but the idea of people attacking zombies (or other people, for that matter) with sledgehammers is kind of silly. At least with most sledgehammers I've used, most people would have a lot of trouble even lifting them - trying to hit a moving target is like trying to stop the tide. --Pgunn 19:51, 6 April 2008 (BST)

   Re - Sorry had to respond to this one :) I think that attacking with a sledgehammer is a lot less silly than attacking with a pool cue or, god forbid, a ski pole. Like Hhal said, it was even used in a Romero movie already. :)--Tselita 20:16, 6 April 2008 (BST)

   At least pool cues and ski poles are things one can reasonably lift. Most people in real life would have a lot of trouble lifting a sledgehammer, let alone swinging one at a stationary (let alone moving) target. --Pgunn 23:24, 6 April 2008 (BST)

   Please check discussion page. --Hhal 16:15, 7 April 2008 (BST)

4. Weak Kill/Change - Combat parameters are ok, really interesting due to it's variance... BUT - it's not a weapon for newbies - forts and malls aren't too newbie friendly. I also don't like the idea of another item found in factories instead of gennies... They'll say that it's overpowered - but sledgehammer should have increased attack efficiency against cades - like crowbar. Generally - interesting idea but needs some work. -- 
   •  Nevin McAvoy 
   •  (talk) 
   20:59, 6 April 2008 (BST)

   Re - To Discussion?

   Moved here.--Karek^maps?! 11:03, 7 April 2008 (BST)

5. Kill - I'm just not into this. I mean, sure, it could add some flavor, but it's just another box I'm going to check off in Settings. I'm sure that's all it will be to a lot of people. --Vandurn 22:29, 6 April 2008 (BST)
6. Change - I like the idea but I'd like it a lot more with some changes. Those being, 5 damage, make it usable by the undead, and make vigor mortis up it's damage(because they[zombies] don't get H2H bonuses). That way it not only serves a purpose of being a decent leveling weapon for classes who can't spend the investment in combat trees it takes to get decent with anything else and it is a somewhat useful late game zombie item and is also good for survivors who get killed but don't have any zombie skills, makes the transition easier on them while not being better than maxed bites or claws. Oh and make it's find rates in Arms, Junkyards, and Factories the same as a Fire Ax in a Fire Department.--Karek^maps?! 11:00, 7 April 2008 (BST)

   Re - Need to mention that we had already discussed, at length, the idea of 5 damage for the sledgehammer in talk:discussion but it was decided that it would be too high. Having Vigor Mortis up its damage would definitely unbalance it as well in favor of zombies (starting zombies start with vigor mortis, starting survivors do not start with hand to hand). Though the sledgehammer -can- be used by zombies, just like any blunt weapon, it would still be primarily more useful to newbie players who don't have many skills (this fact is true for zombies as well as survivors). Originally the sledgehammer was going to be damage 5, base accuracy 5%, but that would be not as good for a variety of reasons. Not as symmetrical, and - at least where your concerns lie... zombies... it would make it useless for zombie. Thanks for saying you like the idea though :) --Tselita 15:29, 7 April 2008 (BST)

   That's perfect reason for me to kill this then, survivors do not need something better than zombie claws at a low level, however zombie variance is currently a joke, if it required a rarish weapon to be searched up to make it easier to crossover that's a good thing as it means the target demographic(players without Vigor Mortis) will be the ones most likely and able to get it. That being said the starting Fire Axes with a Firefigher kinda kills your point, they already get what is essentially the best starting Melee Combat rates. And sometimes it's best to ignore Talk:Suggestions, as this is a somewhat popular and like weapons idea this is one of those times, they're advice is with the belief that melee weapons have little to no chance in passing in the first place. Needless to say no version of this will get a keep from me unless it was done in a manner to help all newbies instead of just helping the ones who already have the best leveling rates in the game.--Karek^maps?! 08:08, 9 April 2008 (BST)

   To Discussion--Tselita 18:30, 19 April 2008 (BST)

7. No point in having a new melee weapon...altough I did like the cross-over idea.--ShadowScope^{'the true enemy'} 04:27, 8 April 2008 (BST)

   Don't like the general idea. Besides, if someone is having a really good day, they might hit with the sledgehammer 75% of the time. That is, if someone is having some good luck... --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 21:04, 8 April 2008 (BST) Changing my vote because of something. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 23:08, 8 April 2008 (BST)

8. Change Same as Karek. --Johaen 21:27, 9 April 2008 (BST)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - what is wrong with you why do you keep doing this --אֲבִיּוֹנָה 23:40, 21 April 2008 (BST)

   • Uh.. .yeah... what's wrong with you? --Tselita 00:19, 22 April 2008 (BST)